Deciding the fate of the FN 5.7x28


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cz85cmbt
December 31, 2009, 12:15 AM
So what is it, an out of place varmint cartridge that really doesn't have niche, or a super cool man stopper never seen before until now.

Me, I think it is a varmint cartridge that really does not really compete well with other varmint cartridges.
My beefs with it:
Wound track with commercial ammo is that of a .22 magnum (even praising articles say this)
little capacity advantage in handgun vs other conventional calibers
Armor piercing, so isn't every other pistol caliber with the right bullet, however armor piercing handgun rounds are illegal
ammo is still pretty pricey ($20 per 50)
Not a reloaders dream
In pistol configuration (5" barrel) it squeaks out the barrel at a measly 1730 +/- generating 250-maybe 300 foot pounds, .22 mag type energy

Counter points that I've heard that don't add up
It tumbles and creates a massive wound channel especially in it's penetrator style military round
-All bullets "yaw" when hitting their target. although I have to say that slow handgun bullets do this very little and hardly get a chance to in the body, energy from a handgun of 250 to maybe 300 foot pounds with not a 100, 120, 158, or 230 grain bullet but a 32-40gr bullet simply would not penetrate far or would yaw little and make a pathetic wound track
Military rounds are loaded them much hotter
-Nowhere is this evidence presented and doubt it would make a spit of difference in a pistol
It has 450-550 foot pounds of energy
-only out of smg and carbine barrels, 9mm also is able to obtain at least mid 500's in foot pounds out of similar length barrels, the 5.7 gets even more juice undoubtedly by its bottle necked nature

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Boba Fett
December 31, 2009, 12:43 AM
Hmmm...judging from what I've read and heard from others, here's my take:

It's primary development is for use as a defensive round.

That said, it appears to also be a good varmint round that people have even used for deer and hogs. But you could probably hunt the same game with less expensive ammo.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyJEEISVTd4

http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewforum.php?f=32

http://www.shootingtimes.com/longgun_reviews/st_fnsfirepower_200811/index2.html

NG VI
December 31, 2009, 12:46 AM
How bout a super cool varmint cartridge with great niches and some mild potential as a defense round?

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 12:46 AM
Acceptable, probably even good, as a round for a fully automatic, close quarters carbine...Yes; anything else...No.

I really like the PS90, but can't bring myself to buy one in that uninspiring round, I would love it if they would chamber it in .30Carbine (about the same cartirdge OAL). The 5.7 has power approximately equivalent to a .22Mag., now how do you feel about it?

:)

Boba Fett
December 31, 2009, 12:56 AM
Acceptable, probably even good, as a round for a fully automatic, close quarters carbine...Yes; anything else...No.

I really like the PS90, but can't bring myself to buy one in that uninspiring round, I would love it if they would chamber it in .30Carbine (about the same cartirdge OAL). The 5.7 has power approximately equivalent to a .22Mag., now how do you feel about it?

:)

I was pretty sure the 5.7 was quite a bit better than the 22Mag. :scrutiny:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0npFXEHfeA0

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/23/myth-busting-22-magnum-vs-5-7x28mm/


But I'm with you on the 30 Carbine! That would be really nice. Have a P90 style 30 carbine with a AMT/High Standard style 30 carbine pistol. Oh yeah... :D

cz85cmbt
December 31, 2009, 01:01 AM
I put a long list of reasons I dislike the cartridge in my opening case. Please let us get a good conversation going. Bear in mind people that this cartridge was designed for dual use smg/carbine with a mated pistol. I say it fails abysmally as a handgun cartridge and is at best an ok carbine smg caliber that gets blown away by the .223 and meets the 9mm possibly on equal footing here but I'd rather go with a modern loaded 9mm or .45 hollow point than .22 caliber 40 gr bullet at the same energy level.

elmerfudd
December 31, 2009, 01:12 AM
It might make a good cartridge for a bolt action rifle. Kind of the same niche as the various rimfires, but reloadable. Something for shooting squirrels and possums and maybe doing some target practice at 150 yards.

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 01:16 AM
I was pretty sure the 5.7 was quite a bit better than the 22Mag.They are picking the strongest of rounds (max loads according to Lyman's 49th Ed. and standard commercial 5.7 are both loaded to about 1750fps not 2000fps) vs. standard .22Mag. rounds, and the bullet construction is much better for the 5.7. I will give you that it is marginally better, but it is still weaker than the .22Hornet and far weaker than the .223Rem which it is often compared to.

Have a P90 style 30 carbine with a AMT/High Standard style 30 carbine pistol.I wouldn't mind that at all, and have always wanted a .30Carbine auto-pistol, but they are not currently made, not terribly reliable (from what I hear), and expensive...but they are like a signal cannon when fired. :D

rangerruck
December 31, 2009, 01:55 AM
the Left's lover, Obama, has echoed sounds out there, like he would like to get rid of this one, so it must be even better than we think.

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 02:24 AM
the Left's lover, Obama, has echoed sounds out there, like he would like to get rid of this one, so it must be even better than we think.True...anyone up for a good ole fashioned group buy just for spite. :evil: While I rag on the cartridge (because it is not as it has been claimed, and simply not my cuppa-T), I am glad that it exists, if only because someone else likes it (and that is all that matters).

:)

MachIVshooter
December 31, 2009, 02:54 AM
It might make a good cartridge for a bolt action rifle. Kind of the same niche as the various rimfires, but reloadable. Something for shooting squirrels and possums and maybe doing some target practice at 150 yards.

The .22 Hornet has been doing this very successfully for 80 years and counting.

Acceptable, probably even good, as a round for a fully automatic, close quarters carbine...Yes; anything else...No.

That's my thinking as well.

Boba Fett
December 31, 2009, 03:16 AM
the Left's lover, Obama, has echoed sounds out there, like he would like to get rid of this one, so it must be even better than we think.

While I'm no friend of the left or Obama, just because they want to ban something doesn't mean that it is particular a good firearm/round/accessory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rGpykAX1fo

Heck, it doesn't even have to exist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRQqieimwLQ&NR=1


I'd say the reason the loons want to ban the 5.7 round and the weapons that shoot it is because of the SS190 round which is touted as being able to go through Kevlar plates.

But as I understand it (an please correct me if I'm wrong), that ammunition is supposed to be restricted to LE and military. But it seems that some still finds it's way onto the open market:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=152067925

Got a spare $775 ($15.50 per bullet) laying around? And IMHO, you're gambling that this isn't a scam anyway.


So the anti-gunners will latch on to anything they think they can use to ban something regardless of it's grounding in reality. Doesn't mean that something is by default a good firearm/round/accessory.



I wouldn't mind that at all, and have always wanted a .30Carbine auto-pistol, but they are not currently made, not terribly reliable (from what I hear), and expensive...but they are like a signal cannon when fired.

Hopefully High Standard will have one soon since they are bringing back the AMT line. And hopefully AMT will have better quality and consistency with the AMT line than AMT did. They're slow bringing them back...from what they told me when I called, it's because of the military orders they are filling. I told them to take their time and take good care of the military first.
But I know I'll be buying one...I always like to support the Texas firearm companies :D
http://www.highstandard.com/

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 03:22 AM
Hopefully High Standard will have one soon since they are bringing back the AMT line. And hopefully AMT will have better quality and consistency with the AMT line than AMT did. I know I'll be buying one...I always like to support the Texas firearm companiesNo way...you jest....WOW!...only in .22Mag...NO!

What a let down...hopefully the .30Carbine will be along shortly, and there will not be the reliability issues reported in the AMTs of the past.

:)

Uncle Mike
December 31, 2009, 07:07 AM
Hopefully High Standard will have one soon since they are bringing back the AMT line.

Oh no...not again...say it aint so...say it aint so!!!

I quit!

EdLaver
December 31, 2009, 08:29 AM
Didn't the Fort Hood murderer use a Five Seven?

stubbicatt
December 31, 2009, 08:55 AM
I remember reading somewhere that supposedly most homicides committed with a firearm are carried out with the lowly 22 long rifle. Admittedly, this is not the place to start a conversation on self defense type ammunition, but perhaps in this instance it is a good jumping off point. If the 22 long rifle is adequate to the task, then this round having a similar bullet weight at an even higher velocity ought to have some merit in this role.

It is what the lunatic in Fort Hood used. He killed several people with this round.

Also, didn't the guru Jeff Cooper say that a handgun is what you use to fight your way to a rifle?

Personally I wouldn't feel outgunned with one of these pistols or carbines for close range encounters.

Walkalong
December 31, 2009, 09:33 AM
3. None of the above.

dirtyjim
December 31, 2009, 09:56 AM
i'd like to have it in a full size rifle for a plinker just to have something a little different.
ptg makes rem700 bolts for it & the chamber reamers are available.
zastava should also be chambering their mini mausers in it, i think those would sell like hot cakes

Shawn Dodson
December 31, 2009, 10:07 AM
It was conceived as an armor-piercing PDW cartridge for military/LE use. It has no practical niche beyond that role.

benEzra
December 31, 2009, 11:09 AM
Neither. It has a niche, primarily (IMO) in very compact carbines like the FN PS90, I think, but the tradeoff you get for the light weight and compact package is the ballistics.

black_powder_Rob
December 31, 2009, 11:19 AM
It was designed to be a rear echelon weapon for support personal. Its killing power comes from being more controlable in full auto. (I am talking about the p90 packaging.) In civilian legal firearms it is a varmint cartridge first and a defense round last. IMO

cz85cmbt
December 31, 2009, 12:18 PM
The pdw concept. at least as the military has tried to define it is a ridiculous concept. In regards to full auto giving it killing power, almost every military professional I've heard talk about full auto say that it is not useful in any platform other than machine guns, in the realm of personal weapons (one man weapons that are not vehicle mounted) this really only encompasses light machine guns like the 249 which has a considerable amount of weight (not to mention capacity) to be able to sustain accurate bursts of full auto fire. Some may argue that the cartridge is very controllable in full auto and could be used in close quarters for clearing out a room of bad guys. This doesn't wash for me, under this usage a person would go into a room and dump a magazine across the room, not a great idea considering there can always be non combatants in the room and I doubt you are confirming targets as you spray bullets and I fail to see where other pistol calibers with or without armor piercing rounds could do the same thing. I'm truly surprised it has been close at all, I didn't think anyone liked this cartridge. And if you think there should be another option tell me what it is.

HGUNHNTR
December 31, 2009, 12:45 PM
I don't care what it looks like on paper. It is a riot to shoot out of the pistol. I have had loads of fun toting it through the woods, and for me thats what its all about. If I can get 21 rounds of full power 22 mag rifle performance in a lightweight polymer handgun, thats awesome by me. I spend more time walking the woods and hunting predators than shooting home intruders or liberating small countries.

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 02:44 PM
The pdw concept. at least as the military has tried to define it is a ridiculous concept. In regards to full auto giving it killing power, almost every military professional I've heard talk about full auto say that it is not useful in any platform other than machine guns, in the realm of personal weapons (one man weapons that are not vehicle mounted) this really only encompasses light machine guns...Wrong, the problem is controllability...a lightweight carbine firing a comparatively anemic round is very controllable. You do not need to just spray recklessly, controlled bursts make the weapon system very useful much like a MP-5 in the hands of a well trained soldier (but less training should be necessary as it offers even greater control in FA). The M4 firing semi-auto is undoubtedly just as good as firing short bursts out of a P90, but at the expense of greater weight, longer OAL, and unnecessary range. I think the P90 fills a good (but limited) roll very well. IMO the PS90 does not as you loose the controlled FA capability.

:)

cz85cmbt
December 31, 2009, 05:57 PM
special operators and tactical training experts around the world have little or no use for full auto fire in anything but squad automatic weapons, not battle rifles, assault rifles, or even sub machine guns. And if you read my full post I did say controllability is the issue.

DT Guy
December 31, 2009, 06:08 PM
Once you use non-AP ammo, I just don't think it can carry its weight. It was originally touted as a light, controllable round that can still penetrate (the military's primary goal, remember, is to remove an enemy from the fight; eventual expiration is immaterial) on the modern battlefield. Once it can't penetrate, it becomes pretty pointless, IMHO.


Larry

Maverick223
December 31, 2009, 07:01 PM
And if you read my full post I did say controllability is the issue....and if you read mine I said it (the P90) is very controllable. :banghead:

The P90 IS BETTER than a PISTOL...which is the alternative for the combat PDW...this is not necessarily the case with the non-FA PS-90.

MetalHead
January 1, 2010, 12:52 AM
I really don't know what to make of it, however if it disapeared tomarrow something even weirder would take it's place.

cz85cmbt
January 1, 2010, 02:10 AM
The concept as laid out in trials for a PDW by the U.S. military is convoluted and the weapon is not needed. What governments now use it for fills the roll of smg on swat teams or the equivalent there of. I think even with a 50 round mag and low recoil to create around sustained or burst fire full auto is not worth it because the application of auto fire is limited in anything but LMG's. This is what I have been getting at. You can say that full auto fire has a ton more merit than what I'm giving it but in the end we are still agreeing that the p90 has excellent control for it's weapon class. Where we disagree is that I do not think this control is good enough to use outside of making 10 feet of wall very uninhabitable. Semi auto fire is more effective in almost every other scenario.

mljdeckard
January 1, 2010, 02:25 AM
If I knew I had to confront a target in a car but I wouldn't be able to just use a rifle, it might have a use. Other than that, it's a brilliant solution looking for a problem.

Maverick223
January 1, 2010, 04:40 AM
Where we disagree is that I do not think this control is good enough to use outside of making 10 feet of wall very uninhabitable. Semi auto fire is more effective in almost every other scenario.The uses are limited, but I think (in the P90 only) that it is a little better than a pistol as it affords better range, better firepower (due only to FA capability), and retains a light, compact package. If a soldier normally would carry a rifle, this is not a good replacement. Agreed?

If I knew I had to confront a target in a car but I wouldn't be able to just use a rifle, it might have a use. Other than that, it's a brilliant solution looking for a problem.Agreed, however I would choose it over a pistol in nearly any instance (especially considering the use of FMJ in 9mm pistols for military service).

:)

HGUNHNTR
January 1, 2010, 01:05 PM
Most of this commentary has nothing to do with the commercial round whatsoever. Who care what black ops, high speed operators are using it for. I doubt if too many of you commenting on its full auto capability will ever get closer than a video game to a full auto 5.7 The OP's question seems much more oriented toward civilian use of the 5.7 round.

Uncle Mike
January 1, 2010, 01:22 PM
The OP's question seems much more oriented toward civilian use of the 5.7 round.

Right!...now for the love of tomato soup, someone, please, start up a line for this little jewel in a nice bolt gun!

I know, the 221 fireball didn't make it either!

I think the 5.7 would make a great little vermin round, more so than the 22MAG...but wait....IF, the 5.7 took off, then the 5mm Magnum Rimfire may not resurrect from the dead....and we wouldn't want to interfere with that!

The ballistics of the 5.7 are better than the 22MAG, and it is rimless, uses better bullets, reloadable, centerfire(which may be a problem in some arenas) and is prettier than the ol' 22MAG. hehehehe

I had every intention of building one...but finding a barrel, that was not a custom drill and chamber, since finding chamber drills and reamers for this thing is next to impossible! Shucks, just the barrel would be more than a good production piece.

CornCod
January 1, 2010, 01:43 PM
I think the PDW concept is here to stay in at least some form. As a weapon for rear area troops in the mold of the M-1 Carbine, very short rifles in 5.7 might fill the niche. Why commando teams and SWAT outfits are buying FN P90's, that I find puzzling.

Shadow Man
January 1, 2010, 02:02 PM
Why commando teams and SWAT outfits are buying FN P90's, that I find puzzling.

The only real-world user of this weapon platform/round that I know of is the US. Secret Service. Why, I don't have a clue, but I have heard that they use the P90. To claim that some HS-LD unit uses them is comical, to say the least. The P90 and 5.7x28mm round does nothing that a 10"bbl M-4 cannot already do, and do better. Yes, it may have a shorter OAL, but name me one realistic scenario where you will complain that a 10"bbl M-4 is "too long". Not to mention that the P90's ridiculously short OAL is uncomfortable. The crying shame is that FN Herstal made this little novelty item in lieu of the BRG-15, a 15.5mm machine gun of incredible potential and power.

Personally, I find this round a waste of brass, powder, and copper...a gimmick round that does nothing spectacular, only a few things moderately well, and can't begin to accomplish a whole lot of other things successful rounds already do.

Silvanus
January 1, 2010, 02:02 PM
Why do so many elite police and military units use the 5.7x28 and 4.6x30 calibers when they are useless? I always find it funny that so many people talk about these rounds (mostly negative comments) thinking they somehow know better than the experts actually using them... FN and H&K are not exactly known for producing stupid and pointless LE and military products...

Mags
January 1, 2010, 02:08 PM
What does the 5.7 do the 5.56 cant? Didn't everyone else on this board determine the 5.56 to be puny and unacceptable for our troops to shoot at drug crazed jihaadist with? So why is the 5.7 different it aint 7.62x51?

Ruggles
January 1, 2010, 02:10 PM
And yet the little 5.7 and it's platforms keeps trucking along. I say it's future is safe. It like every other caliber has it's strengths and weaknesses. Never understood why it is bashed so much.

"What does the 5.7 do the 5.56 cant?"

Higher ammo capacity
Carbine/Pistol compatibility
Lower recoil
Lighter/Smaller ammo
Fired from a 16" barrel on a platform that is less than 27" in overall length

That is about it.

Maverick223
January 1, 2010, 02:32 PM
Right!...now for the love of tomato soup, someone, please, start up a line for this little jewel in a nice bolt gun!That is the only useful civilian use that I can see for the round...good luck in finding/building one.

The only real-world user of this weapon platform/round that I know of is the US. Secret Service. Why, I don't have a clue...Size is everything for them, as they generally must have good firepower but keep in concealed. I can think of no better platform for this use (though the HK PDW should do well, and the Uzi did pretty good). Also keep in mind that the Secret Service can use expanding type ammunition which greatly bolsters the terminal ballistics of nearly any round.

:)

Shadow Man
January 1, 2010, 02:33 PM
Mags, the 5.56x45mm is an acceptable round with the right loading and barrel length, I just think that personally it is being asked too much of. Instant knock-down, 500yd range and lethality, shorter and shorter OAL...its to be expected that the more you modify the weapon system from its original design parameters the more complaints you will pick up. The 5.7x28mm is different, in my opinion, because it can't accomplish what the most modified 5.56x45mm platform can. If given the choice between a full-sized P90/PS90 and a 10"bbl M-4, I would take the M-4 any day.

Why do so many elite police and military units use the 5.7x28 and 4.6x30 calibers when they are useless?

Name me one "elite" military unit that uses either the P90 or the MP-7A1. Same with an "elite" police unit. (big-city SWAT, FBI HRT, etc.)

I always find it funny that so many people talk about these rounds (mostly negative comments) thinking they somehow know better than the experts actually using them...

The experts don't use them...that's how I can talk trash about them and not feel any guilt. I find it hilarious that people always think they know what the HS-LD boys are using...because that's what the latest vid game uses :rolleyes: Now, I don't necessarily mean you, Silvanus...so don't get all hot and bothered.

FN and H&K are not exactly known for producing stupid and pointless LE and military products...

H&K PSG-1 was a flop. Too expensive and heavy.
H&K MP7A1 was a flop. Too limited a role, couldn't do anything that another platform already could.
H&K MP5/10 was a flop. Too few users.
H&K UCP was a flop. You could be more effective firing a .22 hollowpoint at someone.
H&K MSG-90 was a flop. Not accurate/reliable enough.
H&K XM-8 was a flop. Need I say why?


FN-H P90 is flopping. Not a big following outside of vid game and movie producers, where the laws of real life do not apply.
FN-H Minimi is doing a swan dive. The LMG of choice for many years, it is now falling out of favor with its users for more advanced weapons, like the MK-46. I wonder if that is because FN-H made it too complicated? Hmm...
FN-H BRG-15. Fantastic weapon platform, would have replaced the M-2 en-masse, but was dropped because the P90 was considered to have more appeal to the market. Whoops.
FN-H SCAR-L & SCAR-H. This wapons system, years in the making, was surpassed by a grass-roots company who built their system in 3 months, and theirs came out more reliable, ergonomic, and more durable.


Size is everything for them, as they generally must have good firepower but keep in concealed. I can think of no better platform for this use (though the HK PDW should do well, and the Uzi did pretty good). Also keep in mind that the Secret Service can use expanding type ammunition which greatly bolsters the terminal ballistics of nearly any round.


Ah. True enough Maverick. Point noted, thank you sir.

mljdeckard
January 1, 2010, 02:36 PM
Higher capacity than what?

The pistol it shoots through has lower velocity and less effectiveness than the rifle. Notice all the other pistol makers have jumped up to design new guns to shoot that round, it's so effective.

I suppose the recoil is low enough to solve all those problems that people have been complaining about from M-4-pattern weapons. It's not so low as to be non-existent or to make you think that that the weapon isn't firing at all, which gives you ZERO improvement in reality.

How much ammo are you needing to carry for it, and how far?

Silvanus, the European philosophy for the application is much different than the American one. We have pretty much abandoned the sub-machine gun for the rifle. We have decided that in-between cartridges don't really solve any problems.

Shawn Dodson
January 1, 2010, 02:37 PM
Right!...now for the love of tomato soup, someone, please, start up a line for this little jewel in a nice bolt gun! You'd be better served with .22 Hornet.

You might even get lucky and find a recently discontinued Taurus Raging Hornet armor-piercing assault revolver.
http://www.westernhunter.com/Pages/Vol02Issue22/22HORNET2.jpg

Ruggles
January 1, 2010, 02:42 PM
"Higher capacity than what?

The pistol it shoots through has lower velocity and less effectiveness than the rifle. Notice all the other pistol makers have jumped up to design new guns to shoot that round, it's so effective.

I suppose the recoil is low enough to solve all those problems that people have been complaining about from M-4-pattern weapons. It's not so low as to be non-existent or to make you think that that the weapon isn't firing at all, which gives you ZERO improvement in reality.

How much ammo are you needing to carry for it, and how far?

Silvanus, the European philosophy for the application is much different than the American one. We have pretty much abandoned the sub-machine gun for the rifle. We have decided that in-between cartridges don't really solve any problems."

I listed all the thing the 5.7 does "better" than the 5.56mm. Nothing but facts. Not trying to say the 5.7 is better than the 5.56 (overall I do not think it is) but facts are facts.

FN is one of if not the premium military arms maker in the world. Not really sure why folks on the internet assume they do not know what they are doing. They know more about firearms design than the doubters on these internet forums. I also think calling the PS90 a flop is inaccurate at best. It seems to be doing pretty well to me.

To each their own I guess. It seems the Secret Service (one of the best funded and trained LE details in the world) have faith in the round and platform. That rings with more truth to me that internet commandos do.

As for recoil:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f76wGxg3fzw

Do that with a stock M4 or other 5.56 platform. Yeah the recoil is less.

CapnMac
January 1, 2010, 02:45 PM
What, not one person making the obvious (at least to me) comparison to .218bee?

Always thought that would be a cool PDW round. But, it might be a bit tough to make a corporate business case since the round would not be proprietary and all . . .

Shadow Man
January 1, 2010, 02:49 PM
I also think calling the PS90 a flop is inaccurate at best.

When the P90 (or PS90, if you so choose) is adopted en-masse like FN's Minimi (M249) or MAG (M240) by armies across the world, then the P90 won't have been a flop for a Military/LE weapon. Can't argue with the fact that FN is a huge, huge manufacturer...my only point was to show that they have not been entirely successful.

To each their own I guess. It seems the Secret Service (one of the best funded and trained LE details in the world) have faith in the round and platform. That rings with more truth to me that internet commandos do.


I wouldn't exactly call the Secret Service LE...but I'll let that slide. However, if you read post #35, I mentioned the Secret Service by name as the sole user of the platform I could think of. Then, Maverick223 came along and explained why.

But yeah...go back to calling me an internet commando. Don't let me presenting facts based upon years of real-world experience get in the way of your name calling. :banghead:

mljdeckard
January 1, 2010, 02:53 PM
But you didn't answer any questions. There are extended-capacity magazines for an AR, but they aren't very popular because no one sees problems a hundred-round drum solves that 30 round magazines can't solve.

The round, when fired from a pistol, isn't nearly as effective as a P90 carbine OR an M-4.

The lower recoil isn't a real-world improvement.

You gave no facts of any kind. You need to learn the difference between fact and opinion.

Ruggles
January 1, 2010, 02:56 PM
Simple business sense would tell you the fact that the PS90, P90 and Five seveN are still in large scale production would say it is a success. It is also in use a by a large number of military units and LE agencies. If you do not like it then that is fine but senseless and fact less bashing is pointless.

mljdeckard
January 1, 2010, 03:01 PM
What numbers? What units?

Ruggles
January 1, 2010, 03:03 PM
"But you didn't answer any questions. There are extended-capacity magazines for an AR, but they aren't very popular because no one sees problems a hundred-round drum solves that 30 round magazines can't solve.

The round, when fired from a pistol, isn't nearly as effective as a P90 carbine OR an M-4.

The lower recoil isn't a real-world improvement.

You gave no facts of any kind. You need to learn the difference between fact and opinion."

1. 50 round magazine is not unwieldy on a P90, a 100 rd mag on a AR is which is why no one uses 100 rd mags on a AR. To say no one uses 100rd mags on a AR because they solve no more issue than a 30 rd mags is silly. That would saying no one feels to need to carry extra mags for the AR because 1 is enough.

2. Never said the Five seveN was as effective as a carbine (not many handguns are), it is effective none the less. Sadly proven in the real world recently.

3. Lower recoil is always a good thing, you must not shoot much.

4. Show one thing I listed that is not fact, just one when comparing the 5.7 vs the 5.56:

Higher ammo capacity
Carbine/Pistol compatibility
Lower recoil
Lighter/Smaller ammo
Fired from a 16" barrel on a platform that is less than 27" in overall length

Waiting.....

Shadow Man
January 1, 2010, 03:05 PM
Simple business sense would tell you the fact that the PS90, P90 and Five seveN are still in large scale production would say it is a success.

So is the Mini-14...and according to that idea, because the Ford Pinto had a run of ten years, that made it successful?

It is also in use a by a large number of military units and LE agencies.

Once again: name them. Other than the US. Secret Service (which I mentioned back in post #35) I don't know of one.

If you do not like it then that is fine but senseless and fact less bashing is pointless.

You're right, I'm not a fan of the platform or round...but senseless and fact less bashing? Hardly. I've had a few hours (total, over a few days) of experience with the thing...but that assuredly does not make me qualified to talk about it. :rolleyes:

Ruggles
January 1, 2010, 03:07 PM
"What numbers? What units?"

Try google......Secret Servce, Houston SWAT, ICE, units from Italy, Ireland, Argentina, Mexico, Netherlands etc.....

How many weapon system in use worldwide have you help design? Did not think so.

mljdeckard
January 1, 2010, 03:10 PM
You will not in your entire lifetime, shoot as much as I did before I was 21.

There are 100 round magazines for ARs. We just don't use them.

Pistol and carbine compatability is not an advantage when neither weapon is as effective as a full-size pistol or a full-size rifle.

Low recoil is not no recoil. You still have to learn to shoot with recoil. There is no real-world difference.

It's bigger than pistol ammo. It's smaller than 5.56 ammo, but it has shorter range and reduced power. No advantage.

mljdeckard
January 1, 2010, 03:11 PM
And "Look it up yourself" is not an answer.

cz85cmbt
January 1, 2010, 03:12 PM
Silvanus, companies make crap all the time. Bull pups, the .500 smith and wesson, the .17 machII. All these thing and more were created because we are a consumer society and the companies making them know if they toss some super cool new features out there and have magazines like guns and ammo write up a great article people will buy it. By the way guns and ammo is one big advertisement, they never..... ever have a bad review of ANYTHING, because the people they write about buy ad space. The Experts don't use the 5.7. The p90 mostly is used by retarded overseas swat forces. FN has been trying to hock the POS since the early 90's. No armed forces uses it as a PDW. After the assault weapons ban died FN saw it could finally make some dough in the satate by selling this %*@* commercially, and thanks to people who say, "hey I read about experts using it. They must have chosen it." Most of the time Bureaucrats that are part of the industrial military complex get to choose what troops use. I'm tired of ranting.

My post did refer to more of the round's commercial application rather than its military application. Most people buy the pistol (the 5.7) which hits .22mag rifle velocity. The p90 carbine is rarely found and is very expensive. As a defensive round I find it to be a poor choice flat out IN A HAND GUN, in a carbine there are a ton of other options for defense purposes. The only thing I see the FN 5.7 being good for is a varmint type cartridge, but there is a lot of competition. If it is quit out of a 16-20" barrel a more conventional semiauto sporter might sell well, where as the .22 hornet cannot be put into a semi auto design. Say a rifle that looked lit a 10/22 but fired the 5.7 and retailed from 500-650, that has a chance of selling.

Shadow Man
January 1, 2010, 03:12 PM
Okay, I was unaware of those users: I stand (sit) corrected.

How many weapon system in use worldwide have you help design? Did not think so.

:yawn: Last time I checked, it was the end user, not the designer, who decided the usefullness of a system. Congrats on having a sweet job: (I take it you design weapons? Dunno here...) I'd love to design weapons...but don't get all upset when someone doesn't like your creation. I don't get upset when a CO thinks I didn't clear a building fast enough, I just do it again and again until I get it right.

Ruggles
January 1, 2010, 03:15 PM
Quote:
Simple business sense would tell you the fact that the PS90, P90 and Five seveN are still in large scale production would say it is a success.
So is the Mini-14...and according to that idea, because the Ford Pinto had a run of ten years, that made it successful?

Quote:
It is also in use a by a large number of military units and LE agencies.
Once again: name them. Other than the US. Secret Service (which I mentioned back in post #35) I don't know of one.

Quote:
If you do not like it then that is fine but senseless and fact less bashing is pointless.
You're right, I'm not a fan of the platform or round...but senseless and fact less bashing? Hardly. I've had a few hours (total, over a few days) of experience with the thing...but that assuredly does not make me qualified to talk about it.

The Mini 14 has was introduced in 1974, still in production. Yeah I would call that a slight business success.

The Pinto was in production for a decade but is no longer because it was not successful longterm as a business product.

Thanks for helping me prove my point. :)

Google the use like I sated in my earlier post.

Your opinion is just that your opinion worth no more or no less than any other unknown poster on the internet. I put my faith in documented facts or pinions from published "experts" not internet fodder. How much of your hands on experience with the round or platform does not included shooting non reactive targets?

Shadow Man
January 1, 2010, 03:19 PM
Thanks for helping me prove my point.

If business success now equals real world success...all I helped you prove was that marginal systems can, and have been, produced for extended periods...and that in no way makes them good.

As for non-reactive vs. reactive targets...the ballistics gelatin was enough for us. I didn't feel the need to strap on my rattle and go hunt someone down to tell me the round sucked...

cz85cmbt
January 1, 2010, 03:22 PM
Mljdeckard and shadowman, thank you for bring some logic to this thread.

Ruggles
January 1, 2010, 03:22 PM
"You will not in your entire lifetime, shoot as much as I did before I was 21."

Typical internet commando statement.

There are 100 round magazines for ARs. We just don't use them.

Because they are unwieldy as can be like I said. You do carry extra mags though right? Why?

Pistol and carbine compatability is not an advantage when neither weapon is as effective as a full-size pistol or a full-size rifle.

Like I said all platforms and calibers have strengths and weaknesses. You asked what the 5.7 can do the 5.56 can not. This is one of the thing. Simple fact.

Low recoil is not no recoil. You still have to learn to shoot with recoil. There is no real-world difference.

Again. Like I said all platforms and calibers have strengths and weaknesses. You asked what the 5.7 can do the 5.56 can not. This is one more of the things. Simple fact.

It's bigger than pistol ammo. It's smaller than 5.56 ammo, but it has shorter range and reduced power. No advantage.

Like I said all platforms and calibers have strengths and weaknesses. You asked what the 5.7 can do the 5.56 can not. This is one more of the things. Simple fact.

Appears to me that you asked a question, did not like the factual answer so you resort to this. I answered your question with simple undisputed facts get over it already.

__________________

Ruggles
January 1, 2010, 03:27 PM
Thanks for helping me prove my point.
If business success now equals real world success...all I helped you prove was that marginal systems can, and have been, produced for extended periods...and that in no way makes them good.

You called the P90 a flop, then the Mini 14 a flop. You clearly have very little understanding of business. Neither has been a failure in any sense of the word for FN or Ruger.

As for non-reactive vs. reactive targets...the ballistics gelatin was enough for us. I didn't feel the need to strap on my rattle and go hunt someone down to tell me the round sucked...

Real world results do not seem to match your ballistic test, not to mention there are a number of posted ballistic results showing the effectiveness of the round. I will stick with real world results either way.

mljdeckard
January 1, 2010, 03:33 PM
There are AR pistols as well.

My stating how much I have shot in my lifetime holds no more or less credibility than your claim that I must not shoot much.

The last thing I will say before I ignore this thread, is that I have actually killed things with the 5.7 round. My brother in law has both the pistol and the carbine. We spent a whole weekend shooting jackrabbits, marmots, and we even got lucky with a coyote.
This round holds no range or ballistic advantage over a .22 magnum, unless you are shooting a target at close range that is wearing body armor WITHOUT trauma plates.

Ruggles
January 1, 2010, 03:37 PM
There are AR pistols as well.

Yeah those are really handy in a belt holster huh?

My stating how much I have shot in my lifetime holds no more or less credibility than your claim that I must not shoot much.


Which is to say none.

The last thing I will say before I ignore this thread, is that I have actually killed things with the 5.7 round. My brother in law has both the pistol and the carbine. We spent a whole weekend shooting jackrabbits, marmots, and we even got lucky with a coyote.
This round holds no range or ballistic advantage over a .22 magnum, unless you are shooting a target at close range that is wearing body armor WITHOUT trauma plates.

Again real world results against non furry things say differently.

You asked a question I answered it, that all. Let's both move on.

Shadow Man
January 1, 2010, 03:42 PM
You clearly have very little understanding of business.

And you clearly have little understanding of a successful Military and LE weapon system. I could give a rats rear end about how business savvy companies are...if their products are designed for M/LE, and suck in those roles, then they flopped.

And as for calling Mljdeckard an "internet commando", I find that laughable. Here is how a typical internet commando conversation goes:

Internet Commando: "The (insert 'wonder' round here) is a fantastic round, all these studies from experts say so!"

Real World End-User: "Well, in my experience, the ('wonder' round) didn't do so hot in our tests."

Internet Commando: "So and so experts said it did! You are full of it, they are right, and here's a list of completely unrelated examples to show how wrong you are!"

Real World End-User: ":sigh:" :banghead::cuss: "Fine. Have a nice day." :)

So there ya go. Have a nice day son.

cz85cmbt
January 1, 2010, 03:45 PM
Ruggles there are only a handful of incidents with the 5.7, not enough to imperically prove anything. And this is a firearms forum not a business forum. The mini 14 blows, always has always will, people still buy it, but that does not make it good. You seem like the type to trust whatever someone in a magazine says, but there are a ton of dumb gun writers, Mike Venturino being my favorite idiot. Yes he write for several periodicals and I do not that does not make him smarter than myself. I've posted some anti 5.7 stuff I'd like to hear your take.

Ruggles
January 1, 2010, 03:53 PM
"And you clearly have little understanding of a successful Military and LE weapon system. I could give a rats rear end about how business savvy companies are...if their products are designed for M/LE, and suck in those roles, then they flopped.

And as for calling Mljdeckard an "internet commando", I find that laughable. Here is how a typical internet commando conversation goes:

Internet Commando: "The (insert 'wonder' round here) is a fantastic round, all these studies from experts say so!"

Real World End-User: "Well, in my experience, the ('wonder' round) didn't do so hot in our tests."

Internet Commando: "So and so experts said it did! You are full of it, they are right, and here's a list of completely unrelated examples to show how wrong you are!"

Real World End-User: ":sigh:" "Fine. Have a nice day."

So there ya go. Have a nice day son.

LOL ok "Dad" I will. Like I already posted I am moving on as none of the things I listed that the 5.7 does the 5.56 can not has been proven incorrect. The OP asked about the fate of the 5.7, it will not be decided by any of us so what does it matter what we say anyways.

I own both 5.56 and 5.7 platforms. I favor neither all of the time. Why all the hate for the 5.7 I will never understand. You don't like it then don't buy it or use it but do not post fact less things about it.

Ruggles
January 1, 2010, 04:05 PM
Ruggles there are only a handful of incidents with the 5.7, not enough to imperically prove anything. And this is a firearms forum not a business forum. The mini 14 blows, always has always will, people still buy it, but that does not make it good. You seem like the type to trust whatever someone in a magazine says, but there are a ton of dumb gun writers, Mike Venturino being my favorite idiot. Yes he write for several periodicals and I do not that does not make him smarter than myself. I've posted some anti 5.7 stuff I'd like to hear your take.

I think each and every widely used self defense/LE/ Military caliber has numbers of documented incidents where they failed to perform as designed. The 5.7 will as well. Does not mean any of those rounds are ineffective overall.


I also think the 5.7 performed well in Peru at the embassy, and in the local SWAT shooting in Houston years ago. I think Fort Hood showed the devastating effectiveness of the rounds as well. The fact that the elite LE unit in the country has the 5.7 in the arsenal speaks volumes more in favor of it than anything negative posted here. The Secret Service could equip anything in the world, yet they choose to equip the P90 at times. Simple fact.

Every argument made against the 5.7 has been and continues to be made against the 5.56 by those favoring the 6.8 or 7.62. I find those points invalid as well. The same thing back in the 40s about the .30 Carbine. Funny thing is many a US combat Soldier chose the M1 Carbine over the Garand anyways, why? Because the M1 Carbine had areas where it was better than the M1 Garand in. Same with the 5.7 vs the 5.56 IMO.

I will also take what I read in published documented sources over undocumented internet posting with a little more confidence as well. I have been around enough to spot true facts or honest opinion vs macho bravo junk posting like some of those above.

Boba Fett
January 1, 2010, 05:22 PM
Once again: name them. Other than the US. Secret Service (which I mentioned back in post #35) I don't know of one.



Well, with a quick google search, I did find this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90#Users

Looks like about 80 different agencies around the world.

I like these especially:
Addison police department in Texas (first agency in the country to issue it to patrol cars)
Bryan police department SWAT in Texas
Houston Police Department SWAT in Texas (first local law enforcement agency in the country to use the weapon)
Zapata County sheriff's department in Texas



And this:
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg13-e.htm
First sales of P90 were made to Saudi Arabia in early 1990s; today it is believed that FN sold more than 20 000 of P90's to a wide variety of law enforcement agencies and military special operation units worldwide, including US Secret Service, Austrian Army rangers, Dutch BBE special operations forces, Belgian Army and others. Most interesting fact about adoption of P90 is that so far it has been adopted for the role, directly opposite to its original niche of "personal defense weapon". In fact, most services and agencies that adopted P90 use it for offensive roles, as a specialist or even a primary weapon for various assault teams, and other "professional small-arms users", as opposed to military personnel which primary functions do not include use of small arms.









Oh and don't forget about these guys too. They use them a lot :D


http://www.scifi.co.uk/news/StargateSG-1_Cast-thumb-550x277-15749.jpg
http://www.imfdb.org/images/0/06/SG1P90.jpg
http://www.imfdb.org/images/7/75/SG1P905.jpg

Ruggles
January 1, 2010, 05:31 PM
I like these especially:
Quote:
Addison police department in Texas (first agency in the country to issue it to patrol cars)
Bryan police department SWAT in Texas
Houston Police Department SWAT in Texas (first local law enforcement agency in the country to use the weapon)
Zapata County sheriff's department in Texas

Ah come on what do those Tejas boys know about firearms? :)

Houston PD (SWAT) has used them will positive real world results. Quite a bit of heavy gang/drug crime in Houston so I suspect those fellows would not be using something that did not work in the real world. I currently live 1.5 south of Houston because of the "issues" with crime that city now has.

Oh and Stargate SG1 & SG Atlantis were fine shows, not real sure about SG:Universe though. Tell me Amanda Tappings is not that much hotter carrying that P90.........:)

W.E.G.
January 1, 2010, 05:34 PM
Answer on page 1.

http://thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6150704&postcount=19
It was conceived as an armor-piercing PDW cartridge for military/LE use. It has no practical niche beyond that role.

Maverick223
January 1, 2010, 05:41 PM
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/images/graemlins/smilies/general/popcorn.gif

Silvanus
January 1, 2010, 05:58 PM
Name me one "elite" military unit that uses either the P90 or the MP-7A1. Same with an "elite" police unit. (big-city SWAT, FBI HRT, etc.)

Belgian Special Forces Group, Secret Sevice, GIGN, GIPN, GSG9 and some SEKs, USP (equivalent to your SWAT in my country), KSK, ...

I leave it up to you to google the rest, but some of the units I mentioned are considered among the best in the world. But you know better, right?

And why anybody would call the P90, MP7 and M249 a flop is beyond me... They are in use worldwide and will be for a long time.

And I personally would still consider FN and HK two of the best LE and military arms manufacturers, considering the FAL, FNC, FN2000, P90, G36, HK416, minimi, MAG, G3 and countless others I don't care to list right now.

Ruggles
January 1, 2010, 06:05 PM
"Belgian Special Forces Group, Secret Sevice, GIGN, GIPN, GSG9 and some SEKs, USP (equivalent to your SWAT in my country), KSK, ...

I leave it up to you to google the rest, but some of the units I mentioned are considered among the best in the world.

And why anybody would call the P90, MP7 and M249 a flop is beyond me... They are in use worldwide and will be for a long time.

And I personally would still consider FN and HK two of the best LE and military arms manufacturers, considering the FAL, FNC, FN2000, P90, G36, HK416, minimi, MAG, G3 and countless others I don't care to list right now."


Stop with your common sense and facts you are going to confuse some people who "know better" :)

Wanta B
January 1, 2010, 06:46 PM
PDWs most certainly have their place.Most folks have no use for them but for those that do,there is no better tool in the world.NONE.

MP5-10 and Glock M-20...Flat out putdown the lead to AWESOME effect.Again most folks do not need them but those that do...10mm 180gr,out of 14" barrel...ever see what it does to tissue at 100m compared to SS109 from same 14"?

AR pistols are mostly a curiousity,however,they do get some realworld use.As do AK pistols...with a stock see Krinkov.

Beta mags...Apart from Knob Creek? I have seen very limited use of 40rnd mags but that is about it.

I have no use for the cartridge myself and I do not like it,OH WELL.Perhaps someone does and if it works for them awesome. I firmly beleave that,as I posted somewhere else,the powers that be should have set their considerable R&Ds to making a modern projectile for the tried and true .30Carbine cartridge. Thats the cartidge NOT the carbine. It can fit in a handgun with a grip about the samesize as the FN so using it in the P90 should work...given some very minor redesign of coarse.


Just thought I would throw this little comentary grenade out there...The pin and spoon are long gone so feel free to throw your selves on it all ya' like.:neener:;)Wheres my popcorn:scrutiny:

Boba Fett
January 1, 2010, 06:51 PM
Wheres my popcorn

Maverick's got it. Mostly eaten by now though. :p

Wanta B
January 1, 2010, 07:04 PM
ROFLMAO---:what::cuss::neener::evil:

Uncle Mike
January 1, 2010, 08:05 PM
Are you guys done?

Maverick223
January 1, 2010, 08:05 PM
Maverick's got it. Mostly eaten by now though.Yep...just got back...I had to go make some more.http://forums.nitroexpress.com/images/graemlins/smilies/general/popcorn.gif

Wanna B, I agree completely, the P90 (and other PDWs) most certainly have their place (though applications are limited), but the 5.7 round, when in the PS90 or Five seveN, is an uninspiring combination, however I would LOVE to see a PS90 in .30 Carbine.

:)

Ruggles
January 1, 2010, 08:46 PM
This will go on as long as 9mm vs .45, AK vs AR, 1911 vs Glock etc etc. Better get some more corn........

tactikel
January 1, 2010, 08:47 PM
The reason the 5.7 was developed was to penetrate body armor worn by eastern bloc troops. 9mm rounds (and my beloved .45 acp) can't penetrate the crudest of modern body armor. If you can't buy AP rounds (and civilians can't), the 5.7 is something better than a .22 mag and less than a .22 hornet. You'd be better off buying a Kel-Tec PMR in .22 mag (it has standard a 30 round mag!) it is less than 1/2 the cost (and ammo is 60% less) of a FN 5seven.

Shawn Dodson
January 1, 2010, 09:35 PM
Recent, interesting thread about 5.7x28mm (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=444185&page=4)

Some quotes:

A Jacksonville SWAT officer that I know has publicly stated:

"We have been using 30 P90's for five years now. There have been three BG's shot with them. We will not be buying more."

and

"To add to the 5.7x28 fire one of our guys shot a gunman the other day with the P90 at about 7 yards. One round failed to penetrate the rib. Thats right, the SS190 AP round stuck into the rib just under the skin."

An officer from another agency remarked about a 5.7 mm shooting:

"The other guy was shot 10-12 times before he told the officers "stop shooting me" and gave up. He lived as well."

Followed by the Jacksonville SWAT officer stating:

We have had a VERY similar experience on one of our shoots.

Wanta B
January 1, 2010, 10:29 PM
Ik had om te gaan wat meer maken ook:p...Gelukkig nieuwjaar Maveric223:D

Maverick223
January 1, 2010, 10:46 PM
Happy New Year...and enjoy your popcorn, Wanna B :D

Is Angola under your boots by any chance?

Wanta B
January 1, 2010, 10:55 PM
Ah ha!! Excellent!!

Boba Fett
January 1, 2010, 11:05 PM
Recent, interesting thread about 5.7x28mm (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=444185&page=4)

Some quotes:

A Jacksonville SWAT officer that I know has publicly stated:

"We have been using 30 P90's for five years now. There have been three BG's shot with them. We will not be buying more."

and

"To add to the 5.7x28 fire one of our guys shot a gunman the other day with the P90 at about 7 yards. One round failed to penetrate the rib. Thats right, the SS190 AP round stuck into the rib just under the skin."

An officer from another agency remarked about a 5.7 mm shooting:

"The other guy was shot 10-12 times before he told the officers "stop shooting me" and gave up. He lived as well."

Followed by the Jacksonville SWAT officer stating:

We have had a VERY similar experience on one of our shoots.


Well that all sounds very interesting, but there aren't any credible links I can find. Just one to a forum which links to another forum with a supposed SWAT guy making claims. Not really conclusive evidence.

So let's look for some real evidence we can draw conclusions from:

http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/articlearchive/details.aspx?ID=978
While this is not truly a rifle round, it falls squarely between true rifles rounds and pistol calibers. The SS190 5.7mm round will penetrate body armor out to impressive distances, but the projectile has been designed so as to minimize over-penetration in the human body.

Hmmm...what was it that supposed SWAT guy said? Let's bring that back for a closer look: One round failed to penetrate the rib. Thats right, the SS190 AP round stuck into the rib just under the skin."

So....what he's saying is...the round did what it was designed to do using the weapons platform it was designed to be fired from? I must be missing something? Why is your supposed SWAT guy upset that the round and weapon did what they were supposed to do? :scrutiny:

http://www.krgv.com/content/news/investigations/story/NEWSCHANNEL-5-Special-Report-Showdown-in-Zapata/uFKNGwZ1UEmcZkYly-XLVg.cspx (a 2009 article)
A lack of firepower is one of the many issues the sheriff's department faces.

The sheriff admits he's outgunned.

"These cartel members use rocket-propelled grenade launchers and grenades," he explains. "We don't carry grenades with use. We're a police agency. We're most certainly out gunned. Definitely."

However, the sheriff's department isn't unprepared.

Deputies carry fully-automatic weapons.

"This is the P90. It's a machine gun, doesn't look very pretty but we're not looking for pretty. We're looking for what's going to do the trick for us," says Gutierrez.


http://www.gov.state.ak.us/omb/03_OMB/budget/PublicSafety/proj32261.pdf
FN Herstal P90 5.7x28mm sub-machine gun with visible laser sight. These weapons have been tested by AST
SERT and found to be reliable, compact and accurate. They make an excellent secondary weapon for snipers to
transition into perimeter or entry roles.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/city/northdallas/stories/DN-ndfocus_14met.ART.West.Edition1.373fa87.html


First responders in Addison's 52 patrol cars benefit from the gun's compact design and specialty ammunition. The 5.7 mm-by-28 mm round lethally penetrates body armor up to 200 meters.

The accuracy, range and lack of significant recoil allow for use in a densely populated area such as Addison. And because part of the barrel is placed in the stock, the gun can be deployed from inside a patrol car.

.............

Since the installation of the weapons in Addison patrol cars around mid-November, there have been no reports of their use in criminal situations.

But having them as an option provides an element of security for the officer.

"It's better to have this equipment and not need it than to need this equipment and not have it," Lt. Spencer said.


http://startelegram.typepad.com/crime_time/2007/11/cops-get-futuri.html


Many departments have purchased AR-15 patrol rifles, which are similar to weapons used by the U.S. military. Those guns, however, fire .223-caliber rounds with bullets that penetrate their initial targets, but then keep going.

That's a problem in urban settings, like crowded areas with banks and retail shops, where innocent people could get caught in the crossfire, Spencer said. Therefore, he added, Addison decided to acquire a weapon that shoots the 5.7X28mm, which tends to stay in the target.


I'll leave people to draw their own conclusions. I certainly am not saying that you have to love the 5.7 or it's weapon systems, but accurate information is something I prefer to see.

So before claiming that it is hardly used except by the Secret Service or making unlinked/unsubstantiated posts that have rather unbelievable claims, visit Google. :D

Shawn Dodson
January 1, 2010, 11:21 PM
So....what he's saying is...the round did what it was designed to do using the weapons platform it was designed to be fired from? I must be missing something? Why is your supposed SWAT guy upset that the round and weapon did what they were supposed to do? The bullet didn't penetrate the thorax. Period. It merely penetrated the skin and stuck in the rib. Neither the thoracic nor abdominal cavities were penetrated. You can barely get any more minimum penetration than that. LOL

So before claiming that it is hardly used except by the Secret Service or making unlinked/unsubstantiated posts that have rather unbelievable claims, visit Google. Google? You want uncorrupted information? Get it directly from the horse's mouth. I suggest you directly contact Jacksonville Sheriff's Office for more info about their poor OIS experience with the 5.7mm P90: http://www.coj.net/Departments/Sheriffs+Office/Default.htm

Perhaps they can give you contacts at other agencies who've had similar experiences with the P90.

Cheers!

Maverick223
January 1, 2010, 11:43 PM
Ah ha!! Excellent!!Google translator is a heck of a thing, the first statement had me stumped. ;)

...and now for the continuation of the http://forums.nitroexpress.com/images/graemlins/smilies/general/pisser.gif .

Boba Fett
January 1, 2010, 11:55 PM
@Shawn Dodson

*shrug* still unsubstantiated, and it is your claim so the burden of proof rests with you. Besides, the claim of one supposed SWAT officer does not refute the documented use of the weapon or round

But if you want to go with unsubstantiated types of info, ok:
http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=3352
(post is near the middle of the page...look for the pic of the dead deer...only posted pics on the page)

Guy claims he shot a deer with a Five seveN at very close range but even so, the bullet
had passed through a fairly tough hide and then penetrated a good 14-16 inches decimating the vital organs and then made it through the meat on the other side ending up lodged just under the skin.


But unsubstantiated really isn't good enough for me. How about an actual article written for an actual publication? And written by an actual SWAT member?
http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/articlearchive/details.aspx?ID=309

Few excerpts:
Well, the jury is now in. Houston SWAT was involved with the first and only lethal engagement with the weapon to date. I first wrote an article on the P90 for the Texas Tactical Police Officers Association (TTPOA) Command Magazine. Then, as well as now, I carried a P90 as my primary weapon. I have shot thousands of 5.7mm rounds in training and continue to deploy with the weapon on every SWAT situation and high-risk warrant I respond to. I concede that the P90 is not all things to all people. However, for what I do, as a SWAT officer in a major city, it’s a great weapon.


The SS190 ball is not only flat shooting, but also capable of penetrating car doors and auto-glass with minimum ricochet potential. In contrast, the bullet is designed to stay intact and start a controlled tumble once it penetrates a soft medium, thus reducing any over-penetration worries. The SS190 ball penetrates between 11 and 13.5 inches of gelatin, compared to between 17 and 22 inches of penetration for the M855 dual-core 5.56mm NATO round. Upon impact with soft targets, the 5.7mm ball tumbles one time, base over point. This transfers energy and limits over-penetration. The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration.

In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. None of the 5.7mm rounds fragmented and as far as we can tell, none exited either. The shooting itself was a violent confrontation with many rounds exchanged between the suspect and the react team. The suspect was hit multiple times with both 5.56mm and 5.7mm rounds.


Apparently, she like the P90 and finds it effective. One actual SWAT officer in an actual publication versus a supposed SWAT officer with only an internet post. I'll go with something that has substance first. Produce some substantive findings against the P90 and I'll say they have validity.

I don't really care about the P90 or the 5.7 one way or the other...I just care about real data and not fictional unsubstantiated ungoogled baloney. Present real data against the P90 and 5.7, great! Good info to have that will provide us with something to actually talk about.

Shawn Dodson
January 2, 2010, 12:06 AM
still unsubstantiated, and it is your claim so the burden of proof rests with you. Honestly, I don't care. I'm presenting additional information for interested readers to consider when judging the effectiveness of this cartridge. What you or anybody else chooses to believe is entirely your business.

I'm not trying to prove anything. If you're interested you can follow up on your own as police shootings are public record. If you're not interested then don't.

Besides the claim of one supposed SWAT officer does not refute the documented use of the weapon or round I invite you to please show us YOUR documented evidence, as the info you've offered so far has the same credibility as the anecdotal reports I presented. You're not holding yourself to the same standard you demand of others.

Cheers!

Boba Fett
January 2, 2010, 12:24 AM
I invite you to please show us YOUR documented evidence, as the info you've offered so far has the same credibility as the anecdotal reports I presented.


Really? Magazine articles have as little credibility as anecdotal forum posts? I mean...I might go along with that if we were talking about the New York Times, but... :neener:


*sniff sniff* I think this thread is getting stale. Probably a good time to lock it down since only Shawn and I are beating this dead horse http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/026.gif

And Maverick has got to be out of popcorn by now.

Shawn Dodson
January 2, 2010, 12:30 AM
Magazine articles have as little credibility as anecdotal forum posts? You betcha!

Maverick223
January 2, 2010, 12:42 AM
And Maverick has got to be out of popcorn by now.Long gone. :(

cz85cmbt
January 2, 2010, 02:32 PM
Hey Boba Fett check this out. Most cops no %$*# about guns and cartridge design. So some swat officer who says the 5.7 ball operates at the peak of 9mm +P+ hollow points is kidding themselves and yes that is anecdotal evidence regardless of where it was published. The studies done using ballistic gelatin (not f-ing phone books or that clay crap) say that handgun 5.7 terminal ballistics are slightly better than a .22mag rifle. The ps 90 does offer better terminal ballistics mainly because it relies on bullet yaw to create it's wound channel and deliver it's energy, but it is still not impressive although it barely makes the fbi minimum penetration test of 12" in the RIFLE VERSION. This was a test done by handguns magazine. And you know Boba, like I've said before you never hear a bad review in these magazines, why cause the guys they review pay for ad space. I read guys like David Fortier to get a good take on a weapon most guys like Patrick Sweeny just are advertisers for guns and ammunition companies.

Maverick223
January 2, 2010, 02:42 PM
Most cops no %$*# about guns and cartridge design.They don't need to...if they shoot and the suspect falls down and are unable to resist (whether lethal or not), then it has done its job. I am not saying that is the case, as I don't know (I have never shot someone with it), but the evidence points that way WRT the FA, non-civie legal, P90 in the hands of LEOs (all other platforms are questionable IMO).

:)

unohu69
July 31, 2010, 10:01 PM
Im still up in the air as far as stopping power is concerned, Id rather shoot em with a .45

But the 5-7 is accurate as all hell, Fun to shoot, and you can empty 20-30 rounds fast, on target, at a good distance away. I was consecutively pumpin them into milk jugs at around 200' away.

Granted I still think the damn gun, and the ammo is way over priced.

Only having 1 type of ammo available keeps it stupidly priced. We need other ammo manufacturer to pick up the cartridge. And it would be beneficial for another gun maker to utilize it as well.

I am really intrigued by the kel-tec pmr-30 22 magnum pistol. Nice price and fairly cheap ammo.

Zerodefect
July 31, 2010, 10:48 PM
Test your 5.7x28mm weapons yourself. But my testing puts the PS90 on par with my Glock 19. Definately more powerful than a .380 from a PPK or a 22magnum rifle. And I can get hits with the ps90 at far greater distances than my pistols could even dream of.

5.7mm is not very powerful. But I'm sure it's lethal. The talk about it not making through someones rib is pure internet BS. Unless its a hugely fat guy. 5.7 flys through hard objects like bone. It's goo that stops it. A couch, more than 1 set of walls, or a cynder block should all be able to stop the round. Mine goes right through auto glass, doors, and a couple 2x4's easy.

Not really a scientific test, but it outperforms my Glock 19 in phonebook penetration. That makes it great for defense agianst crazy mail men or Zombie phone books or newspapers that escaped the nuclear recycleing factory. I guess?:neener:

The P90 is directed at stealing the HK Mp5 sales. And IMO, it's a better PDW.

I've shot the p90 and own the ps90. I can shoot plenty fast semi auto. FA rate of fire is not an issue.

It also extremely quick to manuever indoors. With a significant speed improvement over even a quick 14.5" AR15. When I'm tired at a carbine class, I switch to my ps90. Feels like cheating. Keep in mind that's with an Aimpoint Comp m3 for an optic, not the slow/dim stock optic.

I can't think of a single senerio where I'd have a ps90 or Ar15 with out allready haveing my CCW on my side. My G23 is allways on my hip or nightstand. so if 5.7 isn't the right choice, i just transition to my secondary weapon, my Glock 23.

Really you have to make you own decision whether or not you can defend yourself with a "high speed, low drag" but marginally powered weapon.

Shooting a Ar pistol indoors is out. That's loud to the point of disorientation. I've had problems with those even with ear pro.

browningguy
July 31, 2010, 11:24 PM
I'm reasonably sure most of the people moaning about the 5.7 don't have one, and have never even fired one. I have an AR57 upper, and it's loads of fun to shoot, no recoil, reasonably accurate, 50 rounds of fun at a time and even my wife enjoys shooting it.

As for a defensive weapon, don't know as I haven't tried it. However with 50 rounds on hand I would not feel undergunned in most any circumstance. But I also have a coice of several .223 semi autos including Ruger, Keltec and an AR, if I need more horsepower than that I have 30-06 and .50 Beowulf in semis, that should cover most bases.

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