M1A/Remington Premier Match ???


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Jason_G
December 31, 2009, 10:09 PM
I had some gift cards to Bass Pro for Christmas, so I bought some Remington Premier Match for my M1A. These are loaded with Sierra MatchKing 168 gr hollow point boat tails, which are supposedly the bullet for accuracy out of M1A rifles.

Well.... take a looksee, and see what you think:

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e15/itsthewhitmans/jason/Target2.jpg

This target was from 75 yds (didn't have enough room to shoot 100yds), seated and slung, using iron sights. For size reference, the orange center is 2" diameter. Front sight needs readjusting for windage (I went too far with it when it was off to the left), and elevation is set for another load at 100yds, so disregard the placement of the groups in relationship to the orange.

I shot 4 five shot groups of the Premier Match, and they were spread out pretty bad, even in the absence of flyers. Actually, the group pictured was the best group out of all of them if you ignore the flyer. Most were about 3" groups. Now take a look at the 150 gr FMJ. This was pretty typical. Nice tight groups, most 2" or less. I should've taken pictures of all the groups, but didn't realize I had the camera with me until the last target.

So here's my question: Is this typical for the Premier Match ammo, or just a bad batch? Maybe it was me, and it just happened to be when I was shooting the Match ammo? I can usually get at most 2" groups with this rifle at this distance, so I don't think it was me, but it might've been.

Was wondering what others' experiences were with this ammo...


Jason

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DarkswordDX
December 31, 2009, 10:54 PM
168s are too heavy for the M1As rifling twist unless you've custom tuned a load for it.

Stick with 147-155 grain bullets. I like Palma Match personally.

longdayjake
December 31, 2009, 10:56 PM
Okay, you forgot to mention the type of m1a you were shooting. My experience has been that the socom shoots the 150 grain bullets much better than the 168 grain bullets. However, my loaded shoots the 175 grain bullets much better than the 168 and the 150 grain bullets. And it shoots the 168 grain bullets about the same as the 150.

longdayjake
December 31, 2009, 10:57 PM
168s are too heavy for the M1As rifling twist unless you've custom tuned a load for it.



Where did you get that from?

DarkswordDX
December 31, 2009, 11:06 PM
A lot of personal experience and a little history.

The twist on the M1A is actually optimized to gyroscopically stabilize a 148gn bullet. Anything from 147 to 155 works pretty well, but you need to load a tad hotter for heavier bullets.

Still, for a grouping like that at 25yds. Sure your sights aren't loose?

MistWolf
January 1, 2010, 12:26 AM
Actually, Jason states in his first post the groups were fired at 75 yards. As for stabilizing the 168 gr MK, it depends on rifling twist & muzzle velocity. Not all M1As have a 1:12 twist.

Wringing your M1A for maximum accuracy will take more than a weekend at the range. Depending on how your rifle is set up, it may take quite a bit of tweaking such as glass bedding, unitizing the gas block and a myriad of others. You also need to decide what kind of accuracy you desire.

A group of 5 shots at 75 yards isn't a fair assessment of the accuracy of the rifle or the ammo

LoneStarWings
January 1, 2010, 12:44 AM
I have not had good luck with Remington Premier Match, although it is pretty cheap for so-called "match" ammo. I find that it's good for consistent 3 MOA 5 shot groups and don't think it ever did better than a 1.5 MOA groups out of the 100 or so rounds I tried. I have used several non-match brands which are about as good, notably Federal XM762D FMJ 147gr and Federal American Eagle 150 gr.

Federal Gold Medal Match 168 and Hornady TAP 155 are "IT" for my gun, which is a Scout. They will always give me at least a 2 MOA @ 100 yards group and occasionally go as small as .5 MOA.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/LoneStarWings/tap2.jpghttp://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/LoneStarWings/tap.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/LoneStarWings/1hole.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/LoneStarWings/m1ascope2.jpg

MistWolf
January 1, 2010, 01:05 AM
That's a nice accurate Scout!

Jason_G
January 1, 2010, 10:36 AM
Okay, you forgot to mention the type of m1a you were shooting.

Yep, I did forget. It's a Loaded, so 1:11 twist, not the standard 1:12. I would think it ought to be just fine for stabilizing 168 gr.


A group of 5 shots at 75 yards isn't a fair assessment of the accuracy of the rifle or the ammo
Well, it was four groups (one box of ammo), and they were all spread out more than the FMJ groups. I wasn't really trying to determine the accuracy of the rifle, just comparing loadings, when I noticed that the supposedly "match" ammo didn't seem to shoot as well as the cheaper FMJs. It just got me wondering, that's all. And I probably would've shot some more, just to see if it wasn't a bad box, but it started raining on me right after I snapped the pic.

Still, for a grouping like that at 25yds. Sure your sights aren't loose?
It was 75 yds. Front sight needs to be moved, but nothing was loose.


Jason

longdayjake
January 1, 2010, 11:00 AM
Maybe you got a bad batch. I too shoot the loaded and it loves the 175 grain bullets. However, my gun has only shot my handloads.

Jason_G
January 1, 2010, 11:07 AM
Maybe you got a bad batch. I too shoot the loaded and it loves the 175 grain bullets. However, my gun has only shot my handloads.

Maybe it was the batch. I've got more of it that I had purchased a few months ago, so it ought to be from a different lot. I'll try it next time.

Just as soon as I get a bigger house (ought to be in a couple of months) I plan on starting to handload. I might pester you later on for some advice on presses, etc., if that's alright. ;)


Jason

longdayjake
January 1, 2010, 12:03 PM
The reason I say it may have been a bad batch is because it was still giving somewhat of a group. I have shot bullets that didnt stabalize and the groups were more like spreads than groups. However they were shot from a SOCOM. The same loads that shot 1" at 200 yards from my loaded were shooting about 3 foot groups at 50 yards from a SOCOM.

Juice Boxes
January 1, 2010, 05:48 PM
Ive shot an inch group with 3 rounds at 200 yrds with my AR-10, only had a little bit of time to put one group then move to the silhouette range. I think they are great factory ammo.

SlamFire1
January 1, 2010, 06:32 PM
Yep, I did forget. It's a Loaded, so 1:11 twist, not the standard 1:12. I would think it ought to be just fine for stabilizing 168 gr.

If the ammunition you were shooting was Federal Gold medal match, then I would say it is not an ammunition problem. I have never shot Remington.

I have a GI barrel, 1:12 twist, that shoots 168 SMK/Noslers/Hornady match very well.

My 1:10 match barreled M1a's also shoot the same bullets into even smaller groups.

Heck if I know what issue you are having.

If your rifle won't shoot a 168 SMK 40.5 grains IMR 4895 LC cases, CCI#34 primer, than either the rifle is bad, or ..............

52grain
January 1, 2010, 08:48 PM
No experience with the m1a, but I bought some 62 grain premier match for my .223 and had rather underwhelming results. My rate of twist is only 1 in 12, but there wasn't any key holing. I like the Blackhills 52 grain match hollow points.

Jason_G
January 1, 2010, 11:38 PM
If the ammunition you were shooting was Federal Gold medal match, then I would say it is not an ammunition problem. I have never shot Remington.

It was not Federal GMM, it was Remington Premier Match.

than either the rifle is bad, or ..............

Since the rifle will shoot fine with any other load I have tried, I would be hesitant to indict the rifle. I think the only thing that could be wrong with the rifle to cause those results is too slow of a twist. I'm also pretty sure it wasn't me, since I could tell an obvious tightening of groups when I switched to the 150 gr FMJ. I'm almost positive now that it must've been a bad batch of ammo. When I shoot the older box from a different lot I will post the results.

Jason

Peter M. Eick
January 2, 2010, 08:18 AM
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/eickpm/sm_targets2.jpg

I am not sure what Remington did wrong, but here is 50 shots, 100 yrds, off the bench with my supermatch. I was shooting 39.5 grns of IMR4895, cci34 primers, federal gold medal brass and sierra 168 BTHP's at 2.805 col.

Uncle Mike
January 2, 2010, 08:47 AM
Do you see the pattern here?
Words like 'Match' and 'Premier' does not the match ammo make.

Ditch the Remington Premier Match stuff, get some 'Federal Gold Medal Match' and shoot those small groups.

This isn't the first I have heard of people hatein' on Remington Premier Match!

You know, the pressure curve has a lot to do with how the M1A's shoot.

gunnie
January 2, 2010, 10:17 AM
..."Ditch the Remington Premier Match stuff, get some 'Federal Gold Medal Match' and shoot those small groups."...

maybe. i have experienced the same thing Jason G is speaking about from FAL rifles. most of them 1:10". maybe a bbl vibration difference? not sure. the GMM seemed more like a "pattern" than what would be considered a "group" from 150gr american eagle.

gunnie

Jason_G
January 2, 2010, 11:54 AM
Do you see the pattern here?
Words like 'Match' and 'Premier' does not the match ammo make.

Ditch the Remington Premier Match stuff, get some 'Federal Gold Medal Match' and shoot those small groups.

This isn't the first I have heard of people hatein' on Remington Premier Match!

You know, the pressure curve has a lot to do with how the M1A's shoot.

Oh, I have no doubt that the Federal is better ammo. Look at the price difference. That must be for a reason. What I was surprised at is the fact that the Remington 150 gr FMJ outshot the Remington Match.


Jason

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