.308 Mauser K98?


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andrewdl007
January 1, 2010, 12:38 AM
I live in central Virginia and its rare that an old gun comes up for sale. At a local junk shop the other day in a locked gun cabinet there was a Mauser and all the tag said was .308 K98. I have wanted to get a Mauser, but I don't know much about .308 Mausers. I couldn't get into the cabinet because the dealer wasn't around so i don't have any more info. Did Mauser ever make a .308 K98? Any info or price suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

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nicholst55
January 1, 2010, 12:47 AM
The Israelis, in particular, rebarreled Mausers to 7.62X51mm NATO, and the Spanish chambered some M95-pattern rifles to 7.62 CETME, which is dimensionally identical to the NATO cartridge. The CETME cartridge was supposedly loaded to significantly lower pressure, however. The Spanish rifles can be readily identified by the provisions to mount a CETME bayonet on them.

There are also aftermarket barrels available in standard Mauser contour in both .308 and .30-06. If it is, indeed, an M98, then it was rebarreled by someone. If it's beat to crap, then it's probably an Israeli conversion. Look for a Star of David stamped on the receiver ring, and the marking '7.62' somewhere very prominent.

PzGren
January 1, 2010, 01:16 AM
La Coruna made 98 Mauser carbines after WWII for a contract that wasn't fulfilled and many of them were in .308 Winchester that showed up on the European civilian market in the 70s.

Whether it is a German made and rebarreled or Spanish produced K98, if it is in good condition and has a reasonable price tag, it is a desireable and accurate gun.

jonnyc
January 1, 2010, 10:14 AM
Let's not forget the Chilean conversions!

jimmyraythomason
January 1, 2010, 10:19 AM
If it is indeed a K98 and not an M98,Gew.98 or a small ring,that will reduce the possibilities considerably.

Brimic
January 1, 2010, 10:54 AM
If it is indeed a K98 and not an M98,Gew.98 or a small ring,that will reduce the possibilities considerably

CZ made a lot of .308 K98s for Israel. Good rifles.

jonnyc
January 1, 2010, 11:45 AM
Just to clarify...CZ made the K98s, but Israel made them into .308s.

JR47
January 1, 2010, 12:43 PM
We also own an FN manufactured Mauser in the K98 configuration in 7.62x51. I have an Israeli conversion as well, on a 1939 Mauser AG K98.

As to the re-barreled Spanish Mausers, the FR-7 used a small ring Mauser, originally in 7x57 caliber. The FR-8 used a large ring Mauser, fully capable of handling 7.62x51 rounds.

As for the mystical 7.62 CETME round, there is no evidence of it in the 10th Edition of Cartridges of the World.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/spanishinquisition/index.asp

This article addresses the 7.62 CETME round.

jimmyraythomason
January 1, 2010, 01:10 PM
"The initial assault rifle development at the CETME was conducted around proprietary intermediate cartridge, known as 7.92x40mm CETME. This cartridge featured a long and streamlined bullet, made from aluminum. The overall design was found adequate, but cartridge was rejected in favor of the 7.62x51mm round with lighter bullet and a reduced powder charge. Improved rifle entered serial production in 1956 and was adopted by the Spanish army in 1957. In 1958 CETME introduced a slightly improved design, known as Modelo B or Model 58. This rifle was intended to fire 7.62x51mm reduced loads but also could fire the standard 7.62mm NATO, if the bolt group and the return spring are replaced with the appropriate set of parts. In 1964, CETME introduced the Modelo C, which also was adopted by Spanish Army, Navy and Air Force. This rifle was intended to fire only standard, full power 7.62x51mm NATO ammunition. Its key improvements were 4-position diopter sights (instead of the earlier leaf type open sights), wooden handguards instead of earlier steel ones, bipod was made as a separate part and, most important, the chamber was fluted to improve extraction and avoid torn rims and cartridge case failures in harsh environment conditions. Production of the modelo C rifle was ceased in 1976."

JR47
January 1, 2010, 11:28 PM
[QUOTE] Big Dog
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It is a myth. The commercial market CETME rifle is based on the CETME Modelo-C - designed to use standard NATO 7.62X51.

The Spanish 'light loads' were an early development that fizzled. All their battle rifles used the standard NATO load.

This has been confirmed on the Gunboards site by Spanish ex-troopers who used these rifles.

The CETME has the ability to operate with a wider variety of loads than many gas-operated weapons can. The only weak point is that the cases need to be mil-spec. The thinner commercial cases can be ripped in half.[QUOTE]
__________________

So, how about a little PROOF? Barnes Cartridges of the World catalogs any number of obsolete, and limited production military rounds. So, where is the CETME 7.62x51 in there? Sounds more like an experimental cartridge that never made it into type classification, if it even got that far. Surely, one of these experts has a sample for everyone to view, if it exists.

jimmyraythomason
January 1, 2010, 11:35 PM
Fizzled or not it did exist at one time. Even myths are based on fact to some extent.

nalioth
January 1, 2010, 11:40 PM
<snip> the Spanish chambered some M95-pattern rifles to 7.62 CETME, which is dimensionally identical to the NATO cartridge. The CETME cartridge was supposedly loaded to significantly lower pressure, however. The Spanish rifles can be readily identified by the provisions to mount a CETME bayonet on them.

This is a myth I wish folks'd stop perpetrating.

The Spaniards rebarreled 1893 Mausers and 1898 Mausers to 7.62 NATO in the late '50s. These became known as the FR-7 and FR-8, respectively. They are both quite safe with 7.62x51 NATO or similar-power-factor commercial .308 loads.

jimmyraythomason
January 1, 2010, 11:48 PM
It is a moot point anyway as all the arms mentioned above will safely(depending on condition)fire standard 7.62x51 NATO AND .308 Winchester.

JR47
January 2, 2010, 01:18 PM
Even more of a moot point is the fact that nobody has seen any of these rounds in public. They were purportedly developed in the late 1940's, early 1950's, but, according to actual sources, such a Barnes Cartridge of the World, they must have slipped through a crack, as they don't list them.

I would be less concerned with the caliber, or bursting strength of the rifle, and more concerned that the gun head-spaces properly, and is in good mechanical condition. The NATO 7.62x51 is, by the way, loaded milder than many .308 commercial rounds.

jaimeshawn3
January 2, 2010, 01:41 PM
Sooooooo Andrew, Was it beat to ***** Israeli, or small ring Spanish, or a rebarrel, or what?! How good is the bore?

jonnyc
January 2, 2010, 03:08 PM
1. Barnes' COTW is a very limited document, useful for very little beyond a basic understanding of common cartridges, not useful for any in-depth study of the history of ammunition.

2. The 7.62 CETME round does exist, a "light" version of the 7.62x51 cartridge. Many examples of the round and boxes can be found in the collector world, not to mention lots of Spanish documentation.

3. The 7.62 CETME cartridge and the CETME rifle share the same name, but they are not really connected items, similar to the situation between a Ford Model T and a Ford Mustang.

desidog
January 2, 2010, 06:37 PM
Well, I have an FR-7, and if it wasn't beautiful, i'd dare some of the posters above to load it with .308 Win and get their face real close to the action....if i did it i'd have an ambulance standing by.

The Spanish had a surplus of Mauser actions and CETME barrels, and married the two. 7MM mauser actions became FR-7s and 8MM actions became FR-8's. As i understand it, the CETME barrel is fine, but the FR-7's 1916 action only has one lug holding the bolt in place (the FR-8 has 2 lugs)...it also doesn't handle gas as well as a modern action...and was made before metallurgy was fully grasped.

The barrel is stamped 7.62 not 7.62NATO
As i remember it, the 7.62 CETME has a CUP of about 40,000 - the 7.62 NATO about 50,000 CUP - and the .308Win about 60,000CUP. (more room in the thinner brass)
So 60,000 vs. 40,000? close to your face?

I shoot it with eye protection and "reduced recoil" .308 ammo. Essentially it is an operable-wall-hanger, not a primary weapon.

JR47
January 4, 2010, 01:26 PM
The 7.62 CETME round does exist, a "light" version of the 7.62x51 cartridge. Many examples of the round and boxes can be found in the collector world, not to mention lots of Spanish documentation.

Interesting, how about a list of links? That would actually help, not just another pontification.

Mr_Pale_Horse
January 4, 2010, 02:40 PM
Manual del soldado de Infantería de Marina ( 1985 ).

Manual de instrucción básica de la Escuela Técnica de Seguridad y Defensa del Aire (ETESDA) (2002).

CETME: 50 años del fusil de asalto español

Dr.Mall Ninja
January 4, 2010, 02:45 PM
Sooooooo Andrew, Was it beat to ***** Israeli, or small ring Spanish, or a rebarrel, or what?! How good is the bore? it was behind the case, he could not of checked the bore.

jonnyc
January 4, 2010, 04:40 PM
"not just another pontification"

Hmmm...nice. Feel free to stop by and check out my collection, and read some of my Spanish books on the subject. I have no links for you, but I'm sure with a modicum of effort you will find some info on the 7.62 CETME round.

PzGren
January 5, 2010, 01:08 AM
7.92x40mm = 7.92 Cetme

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as60-e.htm

This one is a little better but is in German:

http://www.waffeninfo.net/waff_cetme_02.php

Am 02.06.1951 wurde das CETME mit einer eigens entwickelten 7,92 Patrone bis auf 600 m getestet. Zufrieden zeigten sich alle, bis auf die immer noch zu hohe Aufprallgeschwindigkeit. Der Verschluß wurde dann mit einer sogenannten Rückprallsperre ausgestattet, was dann kein Problem mehr beim Schießen darstellte.



Transl: On the 2nd of June 1951, the Cetme rifle was tested with a 7.92 round that was especially developped for it. Everybody was content but for the still too high impact speed (of the bolt). A rear-movement lock was added to solve this problem.

Q.E.D:

evan price
January 5, 2010, 02:40 AM
There was a guy on FalFiles selling a case of the CETME ammo for the FR8 and FR7 rifles last year. Kfranz, I think.

haldir
January 5, 2010, 03:11 AM
How accurate are they? I personally prefer the German markings on mine.

jonnyc
January 5, 2010, 06:07 AM
There were at least three "CETME" rounds: 7.92x40, 7.62x40, and 7.62x51.

Palehorseman
January 5, 2010, 02:08 PM
As others have stated, the Israelis rebarreled a great many Mauser 98s to 7.62x51. I picked up an FN with a pristine bore for 90 bucks back in 1980s. Converted it to scout configuration and with hard cast boolits it is a tack driver with heavy boolits at just over 2,000 fps.

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