Shot a Savage 10FCP this morning. Is 1/2 MOA the new standard?


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Snakum
January 1, 2010, 02:57 PM
I've fired a Savage 114 with Accustock previously and saw 1 MOA right out of the box with factory ammo. But this was a surprise:

A friend from home stopped by early today with his new rifle, a Savage 10FCP with muzzle brake in .308 picked up yesterday afternoon. He had already cleaned it thoroughly so we took it straight to a local guy's place to test it with three kinds of factory ammo. At 100 paces - which with my long chicken legs is about 110 yards - it shot 'four per groups' of .5" or better with two different weights of Federal Power-Shok and with Winchester BST once we got the bipod and sandbags set up properly. We allowed the barrel to cool between groups for record, but we also noticed that the barrel getting hot after, say ... four quick four-shot groups as fast as we could load 'em in and jack the bolt, didn't affect the groups size so much as POI. My beloved Winchester and the older Rem 700s I use will start to open up pretty badly when I shoot like that, of course they have sporter barrels.

It seems Savage is really kicking butt nowadays. I've been looking for a new bolt gun and have ruled out Sako/Tikka for CS issues, ruled out new Remingtons for QA issues, and ruled out Ruger for the fit and finish I saw on their guns in the shop. Savage was running neck and neck with Thompson/Center, but being able to get a bolt in .308 may make Savage the winner. Money's tight and .308 plinking is cheap compared to 30-06 and 7mm mag.

So, when out-of the box Savage rifles shoot sub MOA groups regularly, some models even doing it with factory ammo, does this mean .5 MOA is the new standard. It seems most rifles produced nowadays will probably shoot MOA with some factory round or another, right out of the box. They're all more accurate than ever. I've even read gun tests where Savage's Stevens and Marlin's XL7s will shoot 1" groups with certain factory loads and are dependable as can be in the brush.

It's a good time to be a gun nut. :D

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dagger dog
January 1, 2010, 03:13 PM
It is spooky ain't it?

The last three rifles I have purchased new, 2 Savages, 1 Ruger, were capable of sub MOA .

As like many others that read these forum posts, I handload. All of the three above rifles have shot sub MOA with those handloads.

Back to the OP of .5 MOA, maybe in somebody elses hands but not mine:D

Uncle Mike
January 1, 2010, 03:27 PM
Savage 114 with Accustock

The 114/14 does not come with the 'Accustock', the 114/14 have the wood stocks.
You may have been looking at a 10, 11/111, 16/116.


It seems Savage is really kicking butt nowadays.

They have been for several 'years' now! Welcome to highly accurate, fairly priced excellent quality firearms.

Savage has always, with the exception of the poo poo years, been accurate right out of the box. It is the design of the Savage, which lends itself to easy production...easy, low cost production translates into better QC on the other end.

JDGray
January 1, 2010, 04:12 PM
My 10FP regularly shoots .5" at 100yrds, for 5 shot groups. People don't like to here that, saying probably just some lucky groups, but with luck like that, I don't need skill:D

Snakum
January 1, 2010, 05:43 PM
You're right, it was the 111 that I shot earlier. The blued steel and synthetic model. I think a 10FCP might be my next rifle.

RobMoore
January 1, 2010, 05:56 PM
People don't like to hear that

Specifically, those who bought high-dollar rifles that won't give them small groups don't like hearing that. I find $1500-2500 1911 owners the same. They don't like hearing that a RIA runs tons of ammo and has never been back to the factory for fixing.

If the 10FP came in something other than .308, I'd get one. As it is, a 111 Long Range Hunter in .300 WinMag is on my short list.

Boba Fett
January 1, 2010, 05:57 PM
So, when out-of the box Savage rifles shoot sub MOA groups regularly, some models even doing it with factory ammo, does this mean .5 MOA is the new standard.

Congratulations and welcome to the Savage 0.5 MOA Out of Box Club! (hmmm...I think we need a forum sticky for our club)

I have a 10FCP as well and my first time out to the range with it I did a 5 shot 0.458 at 100 yards.
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=488324

Have to agree with your narrowing down and reasons for buying. Pretty much my reasons as well. The main contender was the Remington 700P. By all accounts a very nice rifle and I probably would have been happy with it too. Well...at least until I shot a Savage :D

taliv
January 1, 2010, 06:52 PM
i don't think there's as much class warfare going on as some of you apparently do

i don't know anybody that's upset that extremely accurate rifles are available super-cheap.

i don't own a savage yet, but i plan to pick one up someday. only thing i have against them is the accutrigger, which is easy enough to remedy.

post some groups, guys! drag those 10s out to the competition they were designed for and let us know how you like them

JDGray
January 1, 2010, 06:58 PM
If the 10FP came in something other than .308

It comes in .223, but I see you want bigger:D

The people that don't like hearing about .5 MOA rifles, are the ones saying you can only do it once in awhile. But everyone that shoots my Savage can majicly do it. Savages are really no cheaper then any other rifle brand, Rem 700 SPS, Tikkas, all about the same price.

JDGray
January 1, 2010, 07:18 PM
post some groups, guys!
All shots taken off a bipod, free recoil, at 100yrds
Load development target with 155gr SMKs, & other random shots
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/JDG357/IMG_0094.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/JDG357/IMG_0093.jpg
Didn't like this powder, but shot the Varget load to .5"
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/JDG357/IMG_0092.jpg

taliv
January 1, 2010, 07:50 PM
very nice! i love seeing pages of 5-shot groups. especially in the half-inch range.

how come you don't like varget?


out of curiosity, what was your sight picture with the squares and diamonds? just cross-hairs in the middle? target dot in the middle? or you have some stadia you line up on the edges? or what

Boba Fett
January 1, 2010, 08:49 PM
5 shot 0.458 MOA at 100 yards.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_czO8Xz8xT1g/Sz6Yh6l_YFI/AAAAAAAALGw/MkR3p71g_7M/s800/458%20MOA%20Target%2022NOV09.jpg

taliv
January 1, 2010, 08:54 PM
is it just me or is that a 5 MOA 15-shot group? :)

Boba Fett
January 1, 2010, 09:01 PM
LOL Actually the target has 18 shots on it.

But if you read my original post (linked way up there), that target was taken when I was out the first time sighting the rifle in. After I managed to put two shots in almost the same place I kept going until I had 5, then continued my adjustments.

You'll just have to take my word on that...so I guess if I really want to say I have a 5 shot sub 0.5 MOA that people will believe, I'll have to do it on another target by itself :p

RobMoore
January 1, 2010, 09:06 PM
What is up with the "Don't mark or patch this target in any way" warning?

taliv
January 1, 2010, 09:15 PM
nah, we'll take your word for it boba

that is an odd warning, rob.

R.W.Dale
January 1, 2010, 09:17 PM
What is up with the "Don't mark or patch this target in any way" warning?
so carters county shooting range can sell you another $5 target


Much like the $8 pepsi at the movie theater

Boba Fett
January 1, 2010, 09:22 PM
What is up with the "Don't mark or patch this target in any way" warning?

Yeah, that is really my only complaint about Carter's Country. But other than that, they're a great place with good people and good prices.

Their targets are a couple bucks and it is cheaper than driving down to American Shooting Center where they will let me patch and mark.

JDGray
January 1, 2010, 11:37 PM
how come you don't like varget?


My rifle don't like IMR4985, the Varget group is in the middle.:) Havn't been able to do better then my Varget loads, pushing 168 & 155gr SMKs

The black diamonds were hard to shoot at, and believe it was printed off for a THR rimfire shooting match that I didn't get a chance to shoot, but just aimed for center. The white background square targets are way easier to shoot. The target with 4 black squares, is a 300yrd scope zero, and was the only target shot at with a zeroed scope:D

Hesenwine
January 1, 2010, 11:52 PM
I have several Savages, none of which have the accutrigger or accustock-they're older models.

The best shooters are the matching 112BVSS bull barrel laminated stock models in 22-250 and .308.

Easily 1/2" groups @ 100 yds even with my old shakey hands off sandbags/rests.

Varget is my choice for propellants and Sierra 155/168gr for the .308 & Hornady 55gr V-Max for the 22-250.

I did do a little polishing on the sears and changed the trigger spring to a lighter guage whick helped a little.

CZ223
January 2, 2010, 12:03 AM
I have known this for years. I have recently sold off a couple of my 12BVSS's but I still have seven. If they don't shoot .5MOA or better I don't keep em around. It is too easy to find one that will.

joed
January 2, 2010, 10:14 AM
I've owned 2 Savages. One a 10fp in .223 and a 12VSS in .22-250. The 10fp is the most accurate rifle I've ever shot. Using 69gr match bullets it routinely shoots 1/4" groups. The 12VSS was a piece of junk. Choate stock, all stainless and nylon stock but 1" groups with verticle stringing. I tried a lot of things and it never improved. Ended up selling the 12VSS and replacing it with a Rem 700 in .22-250. The 700 shot much better then the Savage.

The 10fp being the most accurate rifle I've ever owned even has a problem. 30% of the time it won't feed the next round into the chamber, the tip of the bullet just doesn't want to enter the chamber. And this is a gun supposedly made for LE? You'd have to show me a PD that has one and I'd probably laugh.

Savage accuracy seems to be hit or miss, with more hit then miss. But they just seem to have reliability problems.

The Win 70 Stealth I purchased was very accurate and fed all ammo reliably. I bet you could find these serving LE duty.

Sorry, I'm not sold on Savage.

Snakum
January 2, 2010, 12:31 PM
I started calling around to find an FP in stock locally in .308. I was initially thinking "Sendero" but with my Remington fiascos this year that'd just be insane at this point.

Anyone seen a Savage FP in 308 around NC gunshops? Looking for the one with the muzzle brake or without. With or without flutes.

Txhillbilly
January 2, 2010, 01:06 PM
I have always loved the way my Savage 110 FLP 300 Win Mag shot. I have never really been patient enough for bench shooting,but after I started shooting this rifle,I would just grin and laugh when I would shoot sub-moa groups. That was with the Mueller Eraticator scope on it,I won't say CHEAP scope,because they are decent just lower priced.But now that I have the Swarovski scope on it,I grin ear to ear at the groups it shoots when I do my part.

I just ordered another 110 FLP from Savage in 25/06 and can't wait for it to come,so I can see what it will do at the range and in the field.

joed
January 2, 2010, 01:20 PM
Gee TXhillbilly, you just hit my favorite rifle cartridge, the .25-06 Rem. I have had a Rem 700 VS chambered in this round for 32 years now. It was the only centerfire rifle I owned for many years. You don't see the .25-06 in a heavy barrel anymore. But back when I bought mine it was intended for sillhouette and varmint shooting. That cartridge is one of the best all around cartridges ever developed.

My 700 in on its second barrel now, a Krieger match that I had put on 2 years ago. So far only 20 rounds through it.

Ranb
January 2, 2010, 01:24 PM
I have a couple of Savages that I like. 308, 338 whisper and one that gets 243, 7mm-08 and a slim 308 barrel swapped around with. One thing I have noticed is that there is a big diffference between a 3-5 round group and one that is ten rounds or more. My ten round groups usually open up to at least 1 to 1.5 moa. The group will usually look like two small groups overlapping each other. This is something that the average plinker does not notice unless they shoot a ten round group to test for accuracy.

Here is something to try if you want to only shoot 3-5 round groups. See where each group positions itself against the bulls eye. If they are all in the same spot group after group all day, then you are very fortunate to have a nice rifle that actually "shoots <1 moa all day" like experienced bench rest shooters can expect with their high dollar custom rigs.

I like my Savage rifles, but they are realisticallly 1.5 moa guns except for the one I rebarreled with a 26" heavy palma barrel. It will shoot 1.5" ten round groups at 200 yards.

Ranb

BP Hunter
January 2, 2010, 02:44 PM
I used to have a Savage 10ML - the ONLY muzzleloader which accepted smokeless gunpowder. I took a good number of animals with it. It would group nicely 1" groups at 100 yards shooting a 250 grain bullet. My best kill with that rifle was a coyote at 176 yards. I know it was an overkill, but that that rifle was all I had then.

I just purchased a Marlin XL7 chambered at .270 Winchester for a measily $298 2 weeks ago. I have not fired it but I am hoping to see how well in groups as claimed by reviewers.

blue_ridge
January 2, 2010, 03:37 PM
It's the ammo as much as the rifle. The best 20# benchrest rifle won't shoot 1/2 MOA without ammo capable of even better. I would say you were probably somewhat lucky to get factory ammo to match up that well with your rifle. Usually, even if the ammo is well made, it won't necessarily have an ideal velocity, diameter, seating depth and bullet weight for any given rifle.

But yeah, sounds like Savage has found a way to mass produce a darn accurate platform at a reasonable price. You could tell, with new management, they have been hard at work towards that goal for the last 8-10 yrs or so.

Vern Humphrey
January 2, 2010, 04:41 PM
At 100 paces - which with my long chicken legs is about 110 yards
Not to nit-pick, but that's 100 steps. To count steps, you count every time either hits the ground. To count paces, you step off on the left foot and count every time the right foot hits the ground.

The word "mile" comes from the Latin "mille," meaning "thousand." A Roman mile was a thousand paces, or just over 5,000 feet.

btaylor73
January 2, 2010, 07:43 PM
Man, I couldn't be happier with my savage rifles (6 of them). I have a 10fcp and shoot 1/2 to 3/4 on a consistant basis after a lot of messing with handloads. I have to admit that that is without much wind. I also have the f/tr in .308 and shoot under 1/2 fairly consistanly. My first rifle that I bought for accuracy was a savage and I don't know much else. All I know is that they shoot great. I am going to try to post a 3 shot group from a couple of weeks ago that has to be the best group that I have ever shot. .068"! Of course NO WIND.

Boba Fett
January 2, 2010, 08:03 PM
Nice shooting!

Snakum
January 2, 2010, 09:35 PM
Not to nit-pick, but that's 100 steps. To count steps, you count every time either hits the ground. To count paces, you step off on the left foot and count every time the right foot hits the ground.


That's why I said "paces" ... I always start with my left feetuses. :p

From my days in Uncle Sam's Hunt Club I know that 110 of my paces is 100 meters. But I've shrunk an inch and I walk shorter now. I may need 115 paces for 100 meters. From recent shooting I've lased my 100 paces and read it a few yards over 100. I need to put up distance markers if I can find a place to shoot regularly.

Back to Savage ... I was looking for a Sendero in 25-06 which can still be found sometimes as NOS in shops, or a 700 tactical in .308. But shooting the Savage and reading up on the FP models I think that makes a whole lot more sense. Killer accuracy, excellent reliability, and for around $700 or so, depending on the model.

RobMoore
January 2, 2010, 09:35 PM
btaylor, you didn't mention the distance, though I assume 100yds.

btaylor73
January 2, 2010, 09:37 PM
yes sir

Gunfighter123
January 2, 2010, 09:52 PM
I've owned four Savage 10FPs --- 2 in .308 and 2 in .223 --- all older Pre-Accutrigger -- ALL of them would shoot 1 MOA with ease

rangerruck
January 2, 2010, 09:59 PM
while everyone nowadays makes a much better bbl, it is savage that keeps up with the equipment that cuts the bbls, better than most of your factory makers.
Also the new accustock- i was reading an article or 2 on this; and the savage engineers said, they could not only guaranty 1 moa on their rifles, they could proly get away with guaranteeing .5 moa, but lawyers would freak a bit.
They also tested regular made savage rifles, took them apart, and put them in the accustocks, and all of them improved in accuracy across the board; every one of the rifles improved, some as much as a 50% drop in group size.
that is impressive.

solvability
January 2, 2010, 10:03 PM
I have two Savages that are right there in accuracy - 223 and the .243 varmint gun they made for a while. I have feeding problems with both when single feeding - it is a nuisance.

I have an FN 308 PBR that is every bit that accurate and it feeds great. I think the new production guns are pretty darn right - amazing.

Boba Fett
January 2, 2010, 10:04 PM
...they could proly get away with guaranteeing .5 moa, but lawyers would freak a bit.

Oh but think of what a great marketing piece that would be!



And I would imagine the disclaimer would also be a work of art...something along the lines of no guarantee that you can get a 0.5 MOA, but if you want to bring your rifle to our testing center, we'll prove that it gets 0.5MOA or your money back or replacement gun."


Maybe they could get around the legal bit by including a target that they certify has been shot with that rifle and made a 5 shot, 100 yard, 0.5 MOA.

dubbleA
January 2, 2010, 11:09 PM
Maybe they could get around the legal bit by including a target that they certify has been shot with that rifle and made a 5 shot, 100 yard, 0.5 MOA.


A single 5 shot group at 100 yards doesnt make a 1/2moa rifle niether do a few cherry picked groups. To me to claim that a rifle is 1/2 moa it had better do that each and every time, day in and day out and under various conditions and yardages. Dont throw out fliers or cold bore shots count every round that exits the barrel.

Call me a skeptic, but there are very very few factory rifles that can shoot 1/2 moa every time out. I am with the guy that accepts his rifles are 1.5 moa and is happy with that.

I guess I have a sub 1/4 moa Rem spsv 308:p NOT, it's just another 1.5 moa rifle in the stable.:neener:
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f268/dubbleA/Targets/200Y463grVarget.jpg

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