How I Perceive the AR-15


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The_Pretender
January 1, 2010, 07:38 PM
http://www.txroadrunners.com/images/pics/Funny6/redneck_swiss_army_gun.jpg




This is pretty much how ridiculous it always seems to me. I don't know why I can't get into them. Doesn't matter how many times I shoot them.

Anyone that loves them now ever go through a phase where they didn't and know why?

The keys on the grip crack me up.

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distra
January 1, 2010, 07:43 PM
I love my AR. Versatile, accurate and fun to accessorize! :D With a.22lor conversion it's more fun to shoot cheaper ammo. Not sure why anyone would not like the AR...:confused:

taliv
January 1, 2010, 07:52 PM
that picture has been posted hundreds of times. the parody just emphasizes the versatility of the platform

BurningSaviour
January 1, 2010, 08:10 PM
Not to mention that you can do the same thing with any other platform out there.. I've seen equally dressed up AKs, Vz. 58s, even SKS rifles (the point of which eludes me).
And what of the years the AR/M16 was in existence before the MIL-STD-1913 rail system came about?
If you don't like ARs, then you don't like them. Nobody's forcing you to buy one.

The_Pretender
January 1, 2010, 08:11 PM
It's more like: so many people love them, our troops place their lives in them, *** is wrong with me?

Walkalong
January 1, 2010, 08:13 PM
the parody just emphasizes the versatility of the platformYep. The legos of the gun world. :)

BurningSaviour
January 1, 2010, 08:20 PM
There's nothing wrong with him. He just doesn't like the AR. Well, rather, he just can't get into them is what he said, and maybe he perceives accessorising them as a need, rather than a mere want.

Boba Fett
January 1, 2010, 08:23 PM
that picture has been posted hundreds of times. the parody just emphasizes the versatility of the platform

Even though it is a Photoshop, it does emphasize how a number of people go overboard with their AR-15. I love mine too, but I would never add a ton of stuff to it.

Nutnfancy has a lot to say about AR-15 accessories and proper ways of outfitting them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6auXTiqNtEo
(this is about piston vs AR platforms, but it does offer a summary of his views.)

Just to summarize his video: KISS method. If it is on the weapon, it needs to be there for a good reason. Not just because you have extra rail space. Plus, you want to keep the overall weight down and especially the swing-weight/the weight out in front down (means you will acquire your target faster).


So count me in as an AR-15 lover and also as one who laughs at people with umpteen over priced, over hyped, tacticool, mallninja, and completely impractical accessories. :D

happygeek
January 1, 2010, 08:25 PM
Well, I can certainly understand if you don't like a particular platform. There's plenty to not like in an AR compared to, say, the SCAR-L. Everything I've read about that rifle so far, everyone is loving the ability to easily change barrels at the operator level, the uni-rail on the top of the rifle, the folding buttstock, etc. That, and it's touted as being more reliable. Time will tell if the reliability claim holds up.

Boba Fett
January 1, 2010, 08:29 PM
There's plenty to not like in an AR compared to, say, the SCAR-L.

I can think of several thousand things the AR platform has over the SCAR...


...and they're all dollars. :D

lions
January 1, 2010, 08:33 PM
To me that seems more like a parody of some AR owners rather than the gun itself. Just because most "tacticool operators" choose the AR doesn't change my perception of the gun. It isn't the poor gun's fault.

RockyMtnTactical
January 1, 2010, 08:37 PM
If that is how you perceive the AR15, you have failed to recognize the true beauty of it.

Mags
January 1, 2010, 08:38 PM
There should only be 3 things accepted on a average Joe's rifle. This just my opinion.
1. Flashlight
2. Optic/BUIS
3. Forward grip or Bipod but not both

taliv
January 1, 2010, 08:40 PM
It's more like: so many people love them, our troops place their lives in them, *** is wrong with me?

you clearly need recalibration. that would be like me saying, "i just don't like hammers" and trying to pound all my nails in with screwdriver handles. it's a tool. get over it.

LEVRLOVR
January 1, 2010, 08:42 PM
It seems to be short a fishing reel.:)

dispatch55126
January 1, 2010, 08:42 PM
My 5 y.o. son walked in just as I pulled the picture up. His comment, "That is a silly gun, daddy".

That said, the AR is like a Jeep. You can modify it in hundreds of ways. However, just because you can doesn't mean you should. While I like some of the tacky-cool things on other people's rifles, mine is a bone-stock A2 and thats why I like it.

THE DARK KNIGHT
January 1, 2010, 09:06 PM
our troops place their lives in them

Our troops place their lives in M16, not commercial semi auto rifles.

There comes a time when all have to face facts: We're driving V6 Mustangs. Sorry :(

Mainsail
January 1, 2010, 09:12 PM
The big benefit of the AF platform is its light weight/easy handling, often negated by attaching a bunch of pointless crap to it.

mannac
January 1, 2010, 09:18 PM
I used to be like you. They are very mall-ninja-esque. A lot of people put a bunch of stupid **** on them because it's "tactical". I'm just starting to like them, but only the simpler ones. I'd still much rather buy a great .223 bolt gun.

BurningSaviour
January 1, 2010, 09:20 PM
Companies like Bushmaster and DPMS HAVE made military sales. Even NORINCO has made military sales of their M4 knockoff (CQ5.56A).
There are people fighting for their lives with those weapons. Most of them, even though a burst or auto feature is available to them, are doing it one round at a time.

4v50 Gary
January 1, 2010, 09:21 PM
No toenail clipper on it. I'll pass.

happygeek
January 1, 2010, 09:30 PM
Boba Fett wrote:

I can think of several thousand things the AR platform has over the SCAR...


...and they're all dollars.


Give it time, the thing just came out on the market. The Army is testing out the SCAR-H and L currently and if it gets adopted as the new standard issue rifle then I'd expect the price of the civilian semi-auto to come down substantially.

But yeah, it was selling for $3,000 2 months ago when I got my Sig 556 for $1500. But to be fair, isn't the MSRP on a quality gas piston AR like the Para USA TTR $2300? (http://www.para-usa.com/new/product_rifle.php)

Pony Express
January 1, 2010, 09:31 PM
*** is wrong with me?

Nothing, its just your taste. If you can't "get into them" then you can't "get into them" No big deal. I have an AR, and I love it. Its my favorite rifle. The only thing i've done to it was to install a Hogue free float tube, .030 front sight post, and a sling. It's just taste, and as long as you aren't going to join the military, there's no problem not loving, even hating the AR platform.

Besides, it leaves more AR's out there for people like me. :D

scythefwd
January 1, 2010, 09:37 PM
Mags - gotta disagree. The only thing that needs to be on a firearm is sights. Irons will do fine, reddot or scope can be substituted. The forward grip (not the forearm, but a perpendicular grip to the forearm) just catches on things and a bipod isn't needed if you learn to shoot prone. I loved my bipod on my SAW, but I would shoot it prone without it just as often.

THE DARK KNIGHT
January 1, 2010, 09:41 PM
Companies like Bushmaster and DPMS HAVE made military sales. Even NORINCO has made military sales of their M4 knockoff (CQ5.56A).

Yeah, but they're automatic rifles sold only to military/LE. They're not commercial semi auto rifles.

mcdonl
January 1, 2010, 09:42 PM
I think the keys are overkill. I owned one, and sold it... and I regret it.

It is on the list of guns I have to buy back and never sell again.

scythefwd.... some people LIKE to shoot from a bi-pod. I do. I usualy bring a kid, or another non-shooter with me and it is nice to be able to clear the gun and take turns.

I agree with mag's assesment. Although, I have never used a gun mounted light. I do not have a problem with them, I just prefer mine in my hand.

I like the AR-15.

TCB in TN
January 1, 2010, 09:46 PM
Personally I don't like a tricked out gun, that said I also don't see a problem with those who do like them. IMHO guns are like women, what I might think of as a 2 someone else might thing of as a 10.

scythefwd
January 1, 2010, 09:50 PM
mcdonl - don't get me wrong. I like shooting from a bipod as well... but a rifle doesn't NEED one. They are nice to have... but need is a whole different level. All a rifle NEEDS is sights (unless shotgun), chamber, barrel, action, stock, and forearm. All others fall in the nice to have category. When I build my AR, it will have irons and be an A2 clone most likely, or as close as I can get to it.

mcdonl
January 1, 2010, 09:56 PM
Got it scythefwd... I agree. Good luck with the build. I love the A2 look.

amd6547
January 1, 2010, 10:03 PM
My AR is as basic as can be...and I love it. GI surplus A1 upper, doublestar lower. Perfect function through several hundred rounds. Light 20" barrel. Simple A1 sights with which I pick off clay pigeons at 100yds.
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h61/amd6547/P1000460Small.jpg

scythefwd
January 1, 2010, 10:08 PM
AMD6547 - new barrel? IF/when you replace it.. I would look into a faster twist rate. The A1 had a slower twist rate than any of its decedents. The things I can say were changed were rifling twist rate, brass deflector, flash compensator (A2) from suppressor (A1), hand guards, and I think the barrel profile from the A1 -> A2. Those are exactly the same sights I want on my build. Nice looking rifle.

Does that bipod clamp on, or does it permanently attach somehow?

benEzra
January 1, 2010, 10:10 PM
Ah, you can do that with any firearm...

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/9725/83090477nd1.jpg

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=3774398&postcount=74

HoosierQ
January 1, 2010, 10:12 PM
I saw my dream gun at a local shop this week. A basic 20" A2 style rifle. No rails, fixed carry handle, windage and elevation adjustable rear sights, fixed stock. Used bushmaster...probably a post election panic trade-in. Looks like it may never have been fired...$800.

Sadly, don't have the cash for that right now but when I do get my AR, it'll be the new "classic"...not an M4orgery with all its rails and lights and lasers and all that Jazz. That sort of stuff is great for our troops, I presume, but I'm not a trooper...I am a 51 year old guy who likes to shoot.

So my impression of the AR-15 is a gun that can, 40 years hence, be a classic.

bkb0000
January 1, 2010, 10:12 PM
My father-in-law asked me about my ARs over christmas. He asked why I like them, why I have them, what I do with them.. stating he thinks they're "overkill."

Not to criticize him or anyone else who doesn't understand- but that's all it is, simply not understanding. people don't understand what the point is- well, the point is to be able to kill as efficiently as possible. totally different mindset.

what people don't understand is that having a gun doesn't equal winning a gunfight. because these people have little practical/professional experience with these weapons, or gunfighting at all, they don't understand that winning and surviving a gunfight is really hard to do. walking away from one unscathed is ideal, and even harder. the other guy(s) does not just stand there and let you shoot him(them)- it's called a "fight" for a reason. bullets fill the air, you rarely know exactly how many opponents you face, even rarer do you know the skill level or tactics of the enemy. the only thing that's going to get you out alive is honed skills (training) and a weapon that's capable of out-pacing your opponents'. why wouldnt you go into a do-or-die situation with the absolute best chance of survival?

the AR's value is not in full auto. as an infantryman, i had my weapon on BURST or AUTO maybe twice ever, for required training. the beauty of the AR/M4 platform is the ability to deliver accurate, controllable, lethal fire- it does all of these things exceptionally well. as far as customizing them- OP, what do you feel when you see a bone-stock A2 with plastic handguards and fixed carry handle? there's nothing modular about it, by itself. but it's still an advantage over a guy with a pump shotgun or a handgun.

what's your mindset? there are different kinds of gun-owners. those of us more tactically-oriented tend not to be "gun enthusiests" but win enthusiests. our guns are for self-defense first, fun second (if at all). if you're one who thinks AR/M4s are "overkill," or you "just don't get it," then you're probably a "gun enthusiest," and your priority is... i don't know what your priority is. collecting? mooning? sport shooting? who knows. as a tactical kind of guy, i just dont get you. :p

we don't have to understand each other. tactical people see wood and irons and think "jeez, good luck with that when the commies start falling from the sky/economy collapses/government becomes tyrannical/someone breaks into your house in the middle of the night." gun enthusiests see black anodize and rails and think, "who the crap does he think he is? he's either a wannabe commando or paranoid."

and we're both right.

scythefwd
January 1, 2010, 10:12 PM
BenEzra - I hope that is a photoshop!! That stock just doesn't look right going from wood to plastic (the dimensions don't match up right either). Wow - you win the ugly as all hell rifle of the day award with that one :)

Boba Fett
January 1, 2010, 10:25 PM
But to be fair, isn't the MSRP on a quality gas piston AR like the Para USA TTR $2300?

And piston ARs have yet to prove themselves AND each company seems to be doing their own thing when they develop their piston AR.

The piston AR has a long way to go before I will buy one. Not because I don't like the concept (I really do), but they have yet to show that it is really an improvement, they are not standardized yet, and they are generally heavier (again...I'm with nutnfancy -see youtube- when it comes to weight...and less of it is a good thing).


So, being fair, a good AR-15 is several thousand dollars less than the SCAR and a piston AR-15 (though I'm still waiting to prove they are good) is around a thousand less than the SCAR.



I should say that I have been interested in the SCAR for some time, but it has a long way to go before I'll buy one and most of that way is $$$.

And speaking of $$$, any AR style platform or attempted improvement/replacement must also prove that is worth the extra bucks. Certainly there are times this is the case. Other times it is really difficult to see the improvement versus added cost. I hope the SCAR and piston ARs will prove themselves and lower their cost, but if they don't...well, the old AR-15 warhorse is just fine.

W.E.G.
January 1, 2010, 10:41 PM
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/rifle%20pics/AR-15/AR15BarbieDollforGuys.jpg

amd6547
January 1, 2010, 10:50 PM
scythefwd--I like the 1 in 12 twist of the original AR15 just fine, since I prefer the M193 55gn round in the 5.56mm.
The bipod pictured on my rifle is the standard GI clamp-on version. I don't use it much...I have read that it can change POI with the thin profile barrel I have, but I have not seen that when I have used it.
The stock pictured is an A2, which came with the lower. I have since changed over to an A1 stock, since I find the A2 to be slightly too long for me.
The A1 sights are perfect for my kind of shooting. I sometimes use a Hakko Colt style 4X scope which really works great, and has range compensation for the m193. This was my scope zeroing target at 100yds using Guatamalan surplus M193.
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h61/amd6547/ar15Small.jpg

I built this retro A1, because the first centerfire rifle I ever fired was an M16A1...at Camp Perry in the Small Arms Firing School, circa 1980.

Tinpig
January 1, 2010, 10:52 PM
The photo was funny...
But the AR can be simple, utilitarian, accurate, fun to shoot and to some eyes, beautiful:

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc91/ccanhamjr/Guns/AR15-9.jpg
1977 Colt SP1

Tinpig

The_Pretender
January 1, 2010, 10:57 PM
Been doing some serious looking around. I like this. A lot. Definitely step in right direction.

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/1633/dsc02238t.jpg


Maybe a solid buttstock. But I dig the simplicity. (perceived at any rate)

mljdeckard
January 1, 2010, 10:57 PM
A combat rifle should have everything you need on it, NOTHING YOU DON'T.

The beauty of the AR is, it gives you OPTIONS to decide what works for you best. Even in the military now, there is much less of a "This is your rifle and you will adapt to fit it, not the other way around." It's a platform that can adapt to preference, mission, and body size.

RockyMtnTactical
January 1, 2010, 11:04 PM
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u87/RMTactical/ar15-1.jpg

Casefull
January 1, 2010, 11:11 PM
The AR is like the pick up truck. You can do anything you want with it. Very accurate and quick with lots of firepower. BTW I think the piston guns are way oversold and it is a change that is not needed...especially for the prices that are being asked.

hammerklavier
January 1, 2010, 11:49 PM
That photo needs to be updated. There should be an iphone, and garmin GPS, and a pistol on the accessory rail.

briansmithwins
January 1, 2010, 11:54 PM
Me shooting at a local match. Not too much extra on that rifle.

20" light weight barrel and fixed A1 stock. Handles very nicely too. BSW

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/briansmithwins/IMG_4756Medium-1.jpg

Mainsail
January 2, 2010, 12:00 AM
http://lh3.google.com/DoubleTapper/R_KaxKEYn0I/AAAAAAAAAtM/kXIFofGoUI0/A4.gif

Mags
January 2, 2010, 12:09 AM
My list was not a list of requirements but a list of acceptable accessories.

Boba Fett
January 2, 2010, 12:11 AM
http://lh3.google.com/DoubleTapper/R_KaxKEYn0I/AAAAAAAAAtM/kXIFofGoUI0/A4.gif

That's not a rifle, its a Transformer!

happygeek
January 2, 2010, 12:12 AM
Boba Fett wrote:

I should say that I have been interested in the SCAR for some time, but it has a long way to go before I'll buy one and most of that way is $$$.

And speaking of $$$, any AR style platform or attempted improvement/replacement must also prove that is worth the extra bucks. Certainly there are times this is the case. Other times it is really difficult to see the improvement versus added cost. I hope the SCAR and piston ARs will prove themselves and lower their cost, but if they don't...well, the old AR-15 warhorse is just fine.


I was thinking more along the lines of the SCAR is nicer for military/LE who aren't paying for their weapon themselves, and for firearms hobbyists who have enough disposable income to not care about the price so much.

I haven't run out and bought a SCAR-L for exactly that reason, I don't have 3 grand to blow right now. I would love to have one though.

wheelgunslinger
January 2, 2010, 12:13 AM
Yeah, but no disintegrator, Boba Fett. :neener:

DammitBoy
January 2, 2010, 12:29 AM
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2684/4136458332_e07bff7038.jpg

My Colt HBAR has everything I need on it already...

chuckusaret
January 2, 2010, 12:48 AM
If the SHTF I won't have much use for a AR platform with limited long range capabilities. I much perfer my Remington 700 VTR .308.

RockyMtnTactical
January 2, 2010, 12:53 AM
If the SHTF I won't have much use for a AR platform with limited long range capabilities. I much perfer my Remington 700 VTR .308.

You're gonna be sniping at people in a SHTF scenario? Not likely. Unless you're a BG.

What is more likely is defending yourself in your home with the weapon of your choice, or your CCW weapon while you are out and about.

Can you really foresee many scenarios where you will be taking shots at people past 25 yards? Not saying it wouldn't ever happen, but I am talking about what is likely...

Bovice
January 2, 2010, 12:57 AM
The AR turns from acceptable to overkill with the accessories. You don't need tons of crap on it. I'll even go as far to say that civilian owners have no business putting a flashlight on it. Sure, sure, you say its for home defense. But shooting a rifle of that caliber inside your home is not smart. It's going to poke a hole in just about anything it encounters and keep on going. If it somehow makes it outside, by going through to a window or something, and nails one of your neighbors-guess who's fault that is? IT'S YOURS! Pick something else for that job.

Keep it simple. Have a decent set of sights or an optic. vertical forward grip is only necessary if you have a rail fore-end, because the metal gets too hot to handle directly. Use a bipod if you want one-personally I like propping mine up on a box i take with me while i shoot, no bipod for me. But that's it. No lasers, no lights. And for crying out loud, people, if you're a civilian YOU DON'T NEED an uber-tactical sling that basically integrates the retention straps into your underwear. A simple two point sling will be JUST FINE. Anything else and you're pushing it.

Ranb
January 2, 2010, 01:04 AM
I only added a few doodads to my AR. Cheekpiece, bipod and silencer. I can do without all of them, but the homemade silencer is my favorite.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u320/ranb40/firearms/ar-15NM.jpg

Ranb

Boba Fett
January 2, 2010, 01:11 AM
You're gonna be sniping at people in a SHTF scenario? Not likely. Unless you're a BG.

What is more likely is defending yourself in your home with the weapon of your choice, or your CCW weapon while you are out and about.

Can you really foresee many scenarios where you will be taking shots at people past 25 yards? Not saying it wouldn't ever happen, but I am talking about what is likely...

I tend to agree. If you are going for SHTF in an urban environment, a long range bolt action isn't going to be of much use. Not saying it wouldn't be of some limited and unlikely use. But you are way more likely to be involved in home defense ranges than 100+ yard ranges in SHTF.

Now if you live in the countryside and somehow the SHTF in your area, maybe the odds of needing a long range rifle go up, but even then I'd say you're still not outside the range of a good AR and a scope. Threat identification at those ranges is tough. There would have to be some big clues before you could legitimately take a shot at someone and have any certainty they are a BG.

I think some people consider SHTF to be defending themselves in scenarios where anyone coming down the street is a BG. Or they see themselves defending against a tyrannically ruled army coming down the street. I just don't see too many instances of that happening and if it does, do you really want to give yourself away with a loud boom from your 308? Hope you have a suppressor and some really good cover if there are that many people coming your way.

Not saying it doesn't pay to have a good bolt action for SHTF, I'm just saying that thinking through a scenario's limitations is a good idea.

blkbrd666
January 2, 2010, 01:22 AM
I accessorized mine...with a sling. I wonder how many people have one and don't hang stuff on it?...that might make a good poll.

RockyMtnTactical
January 2, 2010, 01:53 AM
I accessorized mine...with a sling. I wonder how many people have one and don't hang stuff on it?...that might make a good poll.

I wonder how many people would only have one??? :scrutiny:

gga357
January 2, 2010, 01:57 AM
you clearly need recalibration. that would be like me saying, "i just don't like hammers" and trying to pound all my nails in with screwdriver handles. it's a tool. get over it.
That's more like say I don't like rifles. I can't stand a 16oz claw hammer, but I can work all day long with a good 22oz framing hammer. He doesn't like ARs that's ok. He will be well served by any number of other rifles.

Boba Fett
January 2, 2010, 02:01 AM
I accessorized mine...with a sling. I wonder how many people have one and don't hang stuff on it?...that might make a good poll.
I wonder how many people would only have one??? :scrutiny:

Well, I can't speak for everyone else, but I only have one sling on mine...I mean...I tried it with 5 slings...you know, thinking that depending on the tactical situation I night need to carry the rifle in different ways...but it just didn't work for me.

Maybe other people have more than one sling, but one has been good for me.


:neener::neener::neener::neener::neener::neener::neener::neener::neener::neener:

blkbrd666
January 2, 2010, 02:05 AM
I wonder how many people would only have one???

Touche'. But, if I bought a bunch of AR10s and 15s, I wouldn't be able to afford all the other guns out there...and there are so, so many guns out there that need to be here.

noob_shooter
January 2, 2010, 02:08 AM
the owner of that AR in the picture was joking, right?

ny32182
January 2, 2010, 02:14 AM
A little less worrying about what other people do with their rifles would go a long way in these threads....

For all the threads we have with people proclaiming the superiory of their "kiss" rifle, there never seems to be any consideration about what people intend to do with said rifles. I know this will be a shocker to some, but the modularity of the AR platform exists *because* there are varying uses for the rifle; not the other way around. There are also, almost invariably, the same one or two goofy photoshops posted, but precious few real rifles posted that are deemed too "tacticool".

If all you want is irons and standard plastic forend, great. Nothing wrong with that. That doesn't make you better than everyone else.:rolleyes: It also doesn't mean your rifle is better than another for every conceivable use.

Outfit your rifles in the manner you deem most appropriate for their intended use, don't judge others for doing the same, and we wouldn't have to have one of these no-brain threads every week...

blkbrd666
January 2, 2010, 02:19 AM
Has anyone tried a GPS on their AR yet?...just wondering how they hold up under the light recoil.

RockyMtnTactical
January 2, 2010, 02:20 AM
ny32182,

Good post. I concur! :)

I have KISS rifles, I have some that are a little more tricked out. They all serve different purposes, but they also are MY rifles. I would not be critical of what works for someone else even if it doesn't work for me. It would be ignorant to do so.

Quentin
January 2, 2010, 02:26 AM
I accessorized mine...with a sling. I wonder how many people have one (AR) and don't hang stuff on it?...that might make a good poll.

Same here, I accessorized mine with a USGI sling and magazines and a used A4 carry handle. Then added ammo. This is my only AR and is a home build. It's all I need but I certainly understand that others have different needs.

http://i829.photobucket.com/albums/zz211/Quentin68/M-15right-200.jpg

Maverick223
January 2, 2010, 02:42 AM
There should only be 3 things accepted on a average Joe's rifle. This just my opinion.
1. Flashlight
2. Optic/BUIS
3. Forward grip or Bipod but not bothI agree, too much junk is too much junk, and in general only one or two of the items listed above are necessary/needed. For the most part I despise a VFG (but they do have their place) and you shouldn't need a flashlight and a bipod on the same rifle IMO.

:)

mypps
January 2, 2010, 03:09 AM
i have to say that i never thought i would want an ar. it was the thing that everyone had and i try to avoid going with the pack when i can. but the more i fought against it, the more i found myself wanting to build one. so i did. it wasn't that i didn't like the ar, it was more that everyone had one(or 12). mine only has iron sights on it now. maybe an aimpoint or eotech later, but i can't see all the other stuff hanging off it.

DMK
January 2, 2010, 11:59 AM
Not on my AR15.

http://mysite.verizon.net/dmk0210/myarms/carbines.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/dmk0210/myarms/AR15A2.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/dmk0210/myarms/LightRifle.jpg

taliv
January 2, 2010, 12:05 PM
yeah, i recently posted pics of some of my fav ARs here http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=494013

all but one will have optics/BUIS, all have slings (though some are not in the pics), a few have VFG, a few have lights. that's pretty much it for me. well, the SR-25 has a bipod too, but there's a good reason for that

Txhillbilly
January 2, 2010, 12:45 PM
I must say,that for many years I didn't care about the AR platform.I just wasn't into any of the"Military style" guns. I've been shooting for close to 40yrs,and to me they were just guns that urban rambo types bought.

I have a friend that has several of them and one day I shot a couple of his at the range. WOW! Talk about a fun weapon to shoot. That was about 10 yrs ago and the first thing I did was start informing myself about the platform and it's many variations and uses.

There are a lot of people that buy these for home defense and I personally think that's funny.Why would anyone want to shoot a high velocity rifle cartridge inside the confines of their house? Way to much power,and liability for me to want to take a chance with,especially if you live in a populated area. A shotgun,and a 45 suite me just fine for that purpose!

I currently have several guns in the AR platform,for varmit hunting,target shooting and just to plink with. There aren't many guns that can have the versatility of an AR.Besides it is one of the most simplistic guns you can own. It amazes me that there are so many accessories for one type of weapon.Hell,PSE even makes a wild looking compound crossbow upper that fits on any AR15 lower,and I'm debating whether to get one for the spare lower setting in the safe.

http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af113/1Txhillbilly/AR153.jpg

fireside44
January 2, 2010, 01:35 PM
I'll even go as far to say that civilian owners have no business putting a flashlight on it.

I respectfully disagree.

That's the whole fun of the AR platform. Customizing for your purposes. And plenty of people, especially those who live in the country, have an excellent reason for having a flashlight on their AR.

To be honest, I'm not a big AR fan, but at least you can accessorize them and still have a gun that you don't need wheels on. Try the flashlight/vertical grip/full rail on an FAL once. Hope you got arms like stovepipes. Just not practical. The AR however, is quite handy with a similar set up.

happygeek
January 2, 2010, 07:04 PM
Nutnfancy has a lot to say about AR-15 accessories and proper ways of outfitting them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6auXTiqNtEo
(this is about piston vs AR platforms, but it does offer a summary of his views.)


Not a bad video. I was kinda disappointed he only talked about gas piston ARs vs direct impingement ARs, not about GP vs DI in general. I don't ever plan on spending my own money on a gas piston AR, but I did buy a Sig 556 and a 22LR AR upper. I may eventually buy a 5.56 AR upper since I already have a 5.56 lower on the 22LR upper.

I would imagine most people on here put more than 2,000 rounds through their ARs though. (Nutfancy said in his video that most AR buyers don't fire that many in the life of their gun.)

Bartholomew Roberts
January 2, 2010, 08:53 PM
I generally avoid these threads because I just don't have the patience to address all the idiocy in them these days; but this comment made me sit up and take notice.

The AR turns from acceptable to overkill with the accessories. You don't need tons of crap on it.

If you don't know why a piece of gear is on your rifle, then it shouldn't be there. If you don't know whether it will serve that role reliably and you aren't in the process of determining that, then it shouldn't be there. Other than that, you let your needs dictate what gear you need, not what other people think is appropriate, overkill, "tacticool", etc.

I'll even go as far to say that civilian owners have no business putting a flashlight on it.

Why? Are civilians somehow exempt from having to identify their targets in low-light/dark environments? Do civilians have a third hand that lets them manipulate a long gun and a flashlight? You made a fairly controversial statement and then didn't even explain what the reasoning was behind that statement.

Might I suggest that "taking the High Road" goes beyond just not responding to trollish posts with inflammatory comments; but maybe even extends to not being controversial without also being informative?

Sure, sure, you say its for home defense. But shooting a rifle of that caliber inside your home is not smart. It's going to poke a hole in just about anything it encounters and keep on going.

Depends on the caliber and the bullet construction more than it does on the actual firearm. The Rifle Forum Reading Library has a great deal of information on this topic, so I won't bother elaborating further; but suffice it to say that the 5.56mm is often less lethal after passing through intermediate barriers than pistol or shotgun rounds.

If it somehow makes it outside, by going through to a window or something, and nails one of your neighbors-guess who's fault that is? IT'S YOURS! Pick something else for that job.

Exterior brick siding will stop many rounds, including many rifle rounds. Again, proper ammunition selection. As far as "going through a window or something", 9mm drops about 6-7" at 100yds. ANY firearm projectile that exits your house via a "window or something" is going to travel far enough to be a concern.

The best way to deal with that is to minimize the chance that you put rounds where you don't want them by knowing your background and using a firearm that maximizes both your chances to hit (a long gun) and minimizes the need to fire a lot of rounds (centerfire rifle or shotgun).

Keep it simple.

I see people saying this all the time, usually in the context of "Them newfangled percussion caps will just cause problems when you run out, that's why I still use a flintlock."

The idea behind the concept is simple enough; you only put on the rifle what you need - and not what you don't need (another great reason for rails, you can attach and remove accessories depending on need). I'm not sure when that phrase became some kind of Neo-Luddite call to arms; but people using it in that context are screwed up in both their line of thinking and understanding of the idea.

Maverick223
January 2, 2010, 09:01 PM
I'll even go as far to say that civilian owners have no business putting a flashlight on it.I am not going to go into details, but I have needed a flashlight on a firearm (a shotgun used for HD) to identify someone...and I am damn-well glad that I had it on there. A flashlight is very useful utilitarian tool on a primary defense weapon, as incidents do not always occur in broad daylight, and the time for your night vision to recover is not always available.

:)

chuckusaret
January 2, 2010, 11:59 PM
You're gonna be sniping at people in a SHTF scenario? Not likely. Unless you're a BG.
What is more likely is defending yourself in your home with the weapon of your choice, or your CCW weapon while you are out and about.
Can you really foresee many scenarios where you will be taking shots at people past 25 yards? Not saying it wouldn't ever happen, but I am talking about what is likely...
I must have expressed myself poorly, what I was trying to say is that there is no advantage of an AR style weapon over a hunting rifle if the SHTF, and I prefer a standard hunting rifle over the tactical weapon. My Remington cost about half of what an AR style weapon cost and is far more accurate at any range and has more knockdown power. My 79 year old Mosin Nagant 91/30 is more accurate than most AR clones and at any range. I also have a cache of ten handguns from 22 cal to .45 cal, 6 rifles from .22 to .308, 4 shotguns and about 1.5 tons of ammo to feed them. My immediate family is well trained in the use of all the weapons in the gun locker JIC the SHTF. Yes, I believe I am prepared to ward off the bad guy from several yards to several hundred yards if need be.

RockyMtnTactical
January 3, 2010, 12:25 AM
I think bolt guns are a poor choice for all purpose SHTF weapons, personally. Especially since most self defense scenarios will likely be at fairly close range. Slow fire, and they aren't much more accurate than an AR15 (if at all). A person with an AR15 can pour half a mag into an attacker before most people can take more than one shot with a bolt gun. If your Mosin is more accurate than most AR15's, you have a better one than most, too. I doubt it translates all that much under high stress at close range though.

black_powder_Rob
January 3, 2010, 12:47 AM
I think my problem with the AR are its looks. I like a little wood on my rifles. Ohh wait whats this

http://www.lakesideguns.com/title1/lm7basic6.jpg

Well now thats not so bad:evil: (thanks to BenEzra)

benEzra
January 4, 2010, 11:12 AM
I'll even go as far to say that civilian owners have no business putting a flashlight on it. Sure, sure, you say its for home defense. But shooting a rifle of that caliber inside your home is not smart. It's going to poke a hole in just about anything it encounters and keep on going.
This misconception keeps rearing its head. Civilians are not limited to FMJ. With civilian JHP's, .223/5.56 penetrates >>LESS<< in building materials, and retains less lethality on the other side, than handgun JHP's do.

And given that civilian AR-type carbines shooting civilian JHP's are a very workable option as a civilian defensive weapon, putting a light on there is a Good Thing from a Rule Four standpoint.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
January 4, 2010, 01:07 PM
Hee, hee, I like how's there's FIVE different lights on that gun.....


Well, as people have said, you just don't like the rifle type, and that's fine and doesn't necessarily need to change. However, it may very well help you to come to appreciate them if your thinking were to come around to understanding the need or want in this or that particular accessory. Or, it may not matter to you.

Particularly, if you're primarily a hunter, and not .mil/ LEO (an 'operator' or wanna-be 'operator' :) ), then you may come to realize that SOME of these gadgets and the rifle style itself in general are not bad choices for hunting; in fact, they can even come in handy for certain hunting scenarios.

Generally, although I try to keep the rifles as small and light as humanly possible (unless they're a pure range toy), for what it's worth, I have some gadgets on this style of rifle for what I perceive to be GOOD reason, particularly:

1. Replacement (better) grip. The A2 style sucks nards, and an ERGO is infinitely better.

2. "Tac-latch" - small, light, and makes it a lot easy to grab that charging handle and rack it - my only lament here is that they don't make a "DOUBLE tac-latch" where there's big ears on both sides - of course they will *eventually* - I'm always ahead of the curve on these things - but I want one NOW!

3. Optical sight. I'm a big fan of these, and they have their place, for at least 4 reasons: First, a 1x ESD is plain quicker than lining up three planes for fast and furious CQB type shooting. Second, those of us with bad eyes can get a blurred out front or rear and not see the target as well, at ANY range. Third, if shooting at medium or long range, even those with GOOD eyes can benefit from a *magnified* sight, and irons ain't magnified. Finally, the light that an optics gathers can add a good 15-20 minutes to 'shootin time' / 'huntin time' at both ends of the day, at dusk and dawn. Particularly useful for hunting.

4. A 'tactical' sling (1 point, 2 point, etc.). These are good not only for 'operators' on guard duty, but also for hunters, in both having a carry strap for general carry, but also for stalking-hunting where the rifle can always be at the "low-ready" while stalking for hours, without unduly tiring your arms out. Just the other day, I stalked through the woods for almost two hours straight looking for deer with my DPMS and without that 1-point sling, my arms would have been mondo tired (e.g. carrying a standard turnbolt), and I would have had to rest a lot more often.

5. A light of some sort. Obviously this is good for home defense and .mil/police type situations, but again, also potentially for hunting. In some states, it's LEGAL to hunt coyotes and/or piggies with lights.

6. A BUIS for your optical sight (whether co-witnessed or not). Meh, I can take or leave these generally, but overall not a horrible idea if they don't add too much weight. I have a BUIS on only one EBR type. Here's my take on them: I don't do optical sights that take batteries (at least not on 'real' or 'serious' guns). *Co-Witnessed* BUIS's are useful for 1x optics that rely on batteries, so if the batteries go out, you're still in business in a matter of mili-seconds. Since I don't rely on batteries, even for 1x optical sights (fiber optic or standard reticle only), I certainly don't need a co-witnessed BUIS. If you buy a quality optic and it doesn't use batteries, the chances of it going TU are slim to none. BUT, having said that, having a BUIS stored separately (in your pack), just in case you drop your rifle down a steep onto a rock on the optic, to slap on the top rail, is certainly not a terrible idea. But keep them in your pack, not living on the rifle adding weight to what you have to carry and maneuver with your arms. Use a QD mount for the optic, whether 1x or otherwise, and do a quick field swap in the very unlikely event your optical sight goes TU. Another reason I don't like a co-witnessed BUIS is because iron sights are a standardized fixed height, which is too high for my taste -higher than I get my optics, even on an AR15. So they wouldn't co-witness anyway without me raising my optical sight to a place I don't want it to be. Yet another reason I'm not a huge fan of co-witnessed BUIS's is because I AM a fan of magnified optics - usually not dialing down below 2, 1.65, or 1.5, and BUIS's just flat out don't work with anything but a 1 or maybe 1.25 power.

7. Finally, forward grip. I don't really like or want a forward grip on a serious gun *for the sake of having a different grip* for shooting while standing - the standard horizontal handguard is fine for that. But if you're ambush hunting, and holding a rifle in your lap, it can tend to 'slip down' toward the ground over time and it's a pain keeping it in place and trying to keep perfectly still. A forward grip, or at least a significant protrusion of some sort from the bottom of the front of the stock/handguard area, gives your off-hand something to grab onto, to hold the rifle into your body stabily without tiring you out over the long haul.

8. Finally, as to the platform itself in general: Let's face it - a pistol grip for the shooting hand is just flat-out more comfortable and ergo thana "standard" rifle stock grip, such as on a standard turnbolt. Secondly, an AR15 is both *fairly* light and semi-auto, both of which can be useful for hunting and 'operators' alike. Well, they're light FOR a semi-auto, if you don't go in for HBARs and keep your accessories minimal and light. The safety is both quiet and easy to manipulate. Quieter than a Remington 700, for example.

You'll notice that bipod is NOT in the list. Bipods (to me) are little more than toys, as adding a LOT of weight, with very little to no actual benefit. Field expedient rests, such as a tree trunk, tree limb, rock, fallen tree, etc., are not only just as sturdy or even sturdier than a bipod, they are, most importantly, higher up, getting you above the ambient flora / brush / grass. I'd much rather have one of those aluminum adjustable bipod or monopod / walking stick combos, that come up to a max of anywhere from 24" to 60", for actual use from a chair, hillside, or while standing.

Lasers are also not in the list. They are fun toys, but again, I ain't gonna rely on anything using batteries myself - YMMV. It's also hard or impossible to see them in bright light.

Obviously, the size and weight of the gadgets put on needs to be seriously considered. Optical sights can vary widely in weight once you get up to magnified ones. You've just gotta look at the rifle's purpose, versus what it weighs now, versus what's the maximum acceptable weight, versus the need for the gadget in question, versus the various feature-to-weight ratios of the commercial offerings of the gadget type.

Wanta B
January 4, 2010, 01:54 PM
...:fire:..."I'll even go so far as to say that civilian owners have no business putting a flashlight on it."...:fire:...

Enjoy your rights...citizen.

DammitBoy
January 4, 2010, 10:17 PM
"and when they came for my flashlight there was no one left to speak up for me..."

Maverick223
January 4, 2010, 11:01 PM
"and when they came for my flashlight there was no one left to speak up for me..."lol, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ. :D

Bovice
January 4, 2010, 11:11 PM
......"I'll even go so far as to say that civilian owners have no business putting a flashlight on it."......

Enjoy your rights...citizen.


don't get your panties in a wad. You know it's true. My statement stands.

Bartholomew Roberts
January 4, 2010, 11:36 PM
don't get your panties in a wad. You know it's true. My statement stands.

Are you just here to troll? You are being insulting to other members but still haven't bothered to explain your reasoning or actually engage in a discussion about your claims.

I notice you ignored every one of the people who took the time to address you seriously and politely. Why is that?
*

Boba Fett
January 5, 2010, 12:22 AM
......"I'll even go so far as to say that civilian owners have no business putting a flashlight on it."......

Enjoy your rights...citizen.

don't get your panties in a wad. You know it's true. My statement stands.


What a bunch of jabberwocky.


How do you propose that we "civilians" illuminate the area in front of us if the light isn't on the AR-15? Maybe holding the rifle in one hand and the flashlight in the other? :scrutiny:

Get real.

Maverick223
January 5, 2010, 12:32 AM
You know it's true. My statement stands.Yesuh...I undaastand, we don't need no rifle mounted light cause we unedumacated folk don't need no rifle. :rolleyes: http://forums.nitroexpress.com/images/graemlins/smilies/general/banned.gif

Mags
January 5, 2010, 12:38 AM
Bovice, do you have a picture of your AR so we will get an idea of how to set one up?

The_Pretender
January 5, 2010, 02:15 AM
I would think flashlights carry the same caveat as tracers...

They work both ways. :(

Dunno. But I DO hope none of you ever have to find out if you really did need it.

RP88
January 5, 2010, 02:34 AM
I would think flashlights carry the same caveat as tracers...

They work both ways.

I feel the same way. But, I think they would be good for a ranch gun to help ward of predators of outside pets or farm animals.

However, inside your home - even if it is *your* home: don't go looking for trouble, especially if trouble itself has already come looking for you.

Mags
January 5, 2010, 03:06 AM
If your flashlight is bright enough like most SureFires are all you give away is your general direction all the which would be given away indoors anyways. Plus you blind the heck out of the intruder and can identify the threat.

Mags
January 5, 2010, 03:07 AM
However, inside your home - even if it is *your* home: don't go looking for trouble, especially if trouble itself has already come looking for you.
Bad idea what about the rest of your family down the hall from your safe location?

Maverick223
January 5, 2010, 03:23 AM
If your flashlight is bright enough like most SureFires are all you give away is your general direction all the which would be given away indoors anyways. Plus you blind the heck out of the intruder and can identify the threat.Exactly, not to mention the non-HD type uses such as coyotes, opossums, raccoons, feral hogs (where legal), et al...because you can't (or shouldn't) shoot what you can't see.

:)

C-grunt
January 5, 2010, 05:58 AM
don't get your panties in a wad. You know it's true. My statement stands.
Hope you dont shoot your wife because you had "no business" identifying your target.

chuckusaret
January 5, 2010, 10:54 AM
I doubt it translates all that much under high stress at close range though.
I spent several tours in RVN and was armed with the M16 and a M16equipped with the M203 but carried a shotgun on most patrols.
IMO, I have semi auto and pump shotguns that will work as good or better at close range.

TexasRifleman
January 5, 2010, 10:56 AM
I'll even go as far to say that civilian owners have no business putting a flashlight on it. Sure, sure, you say its for home defense. But shooting a rifle of that caliber inside your home is not smart. It's going to poke a hole in just about anything it encounters and keep on going

Wow.

Pretty much demonstrates lack of knowledge on just about everything from the meaning of the Second Amendment, to the proper way to use a firearm, to an understanding of ammunition selection and bullet design.

chuckusaret
January 5, 2010, 12:26 PM
I have reread every tread on "How I perceive the AR".

Most of the treads address the AR15 as a needed weapon if the SHTF but then contradict themselves by quotes such as; "Can you really foresee many scenarios where you will be taking shots at people past 25 yards?" Then what is the need for an AR clone ? IMO, I have semi auto and pump shotguns that will work better at close range.

One tread stressed the accuracy of the AR clones. As far as more accurate weapons my 700 VTR .308, 91/30/, Ruger 44, Remington 7400 30-06 are more accurate than the AR clones and with greater knockdown power.

Another tread stated that the very loud report from the .308 was a negative. IMO, not anymore than the report of an AR clone .223.

Another tread stated that if the SHTF most conflicts would be slow fire. Then why the need of a semi auto AR clone.

Admit it guys, as my wife says: "It is a Man's Thing".

I prefer to place the protection of my family with tried and true reliable weapons if the fesses ever hits the fan and not with some untested “kit” assembled from parts produced by various manufacturers…….As I have stated "I have no need for an AR style weapon" and the comments on "How I preceive the AR" have not made me change my mind.

ny32182
January 5, 2010, 12:46 PM
Then don't get one Chuck, it is pretty simple...

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
January 5, 2010, 01:00 PM
chuckusaret, I agree that there IS a valid argument for a non-semi-auto; opting instead for a manual repeater like a turnbolt, pump or levergun, for self-defense. No matter how reliable a semi is - even the most reliable semi-auto in the world - it is STILL going to be, on average, however so slightly, LESS reliable than a properly tuned levergun or pump, or even better, a turnbolt, when used with the right ammo. The chance of a malfunction in a really good semi may be one in 100,000, but you may just get that one when you really need the rifle. The chance of a turnbolt malfunctioning by comparison, may be 1 in 500,000 for example. There's something to be said for simplicity and reliability. Although I keep a shotgun and handgun at the ready for home defense, not a rifle - if I were to use a rifle instead, I still consider the perfect home defense rifle (for MY realistic threat level) to be something like a 16" .45 Colt Win 92 type levergun - the AR15 in 5.56x45 is certainly not a bad choice, but I'd take the levergun I believe, due to the sheer reliability of it, not to mention lower noise levels, lower recoil, less chance of gettin trigger-happy on the aggressor, changing the scenario from self-defense to murder, less chance of having a multi-shot ND under an adrenaline rush, simplicity, etc. Not to mention that I don't like leaving expensive guns like AR15s out of the safe, and my home defense guns usually stay out, for better or worse.

Art Eatman
January 5, 2010, 01:06 PM
Nothing particularly wrong with an AR, but the emotion, general misinformation and hype make me want to go off and :barf: anytime one of these threads shows up. Enough.

Let's wait until 2011 for any more of this, okay?

:D:D:D

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