[bountyhunter]

I read that this stuff is supposed to be a super penetrant that "burrows" under fouling and loosens it so you don't need ammonia or any nasties to get out copper fouling.

Sounds good, anybody use it?

My real question, how does it work on those stubborn glazed on burn rings you get in the cylinder of a revolver just in front of the end of the brass?

[HSMITH]

I use it, it works really well. The burn rings on a cylinder face I don't worry about, but it does get the 38 special mess out of a 357 cylinder if that is what you need done.

By FAR the best commercial "everything" solvent, but for specific chores like copper fouling there are much better products. If you only have one on your shelf it should be Shooters Choice.

[Clark]

I have two classes of bore cleaning solvents:
1) burnt powder solvents that smell good.
2) copper solvents that smell bad.

Shooter's choice is one of the stinky ones.
The things I like about it is that it also disolves lead and it mixes with Kroil to make a no stick surface on the bore before I fire my first shot in a clean bore with a copper bullet.

[bountyhunter]

Thanks for the opinions. I'm going to try it.

[Steve Smith]

GM Top Engine Cleaner is the same stuff but costs about a tenth of the price.

[bountyhunter]

GM Top Engine Cleaner is the same stuff but costs about a tenth of the price.

Don't leave us hanging. Where do we get GM Top Engine cleaner?

[bountyhunter]

GM Top Engine Cleaner is the same stuff but costs about a tenth of the price.

I looked it up. It sells online for about $5 for a 15 ounce bottle, but the bad news is there is a $25 surcharge for "hazardous material handling" to ship it. I called the Chevy dealers here and they say that GM will no longer supply them with the 15 ounce bottle, they only sell it in 0.8 ounce "bottles" for the price of $4.50.....

Bottom line, this stuff is a fuel additive type cleaner: anything else like it that is still available for sale?

[Master Blaster]

Sorry to disagree with you but Shooters choice bore cleaner and top engine cleaner are not even close to being the same.

I doubt that they even share one common ingredient.

Ammoniated solvents take copper fouling out.

Ordinary gun solvents desolve carbon and grease.

Only thing that disolves lead is Paracetic acid, 50% hydrogen peroxide, 50% white vinegar both from the store.

Using it is a risk to the metal of you gun though.

Shooters choice lead cleaner does not disolve lead PERIOD.

I put a lead bullet into a pan with some of the yellow SC lead solvent,
two days later the bullet had not lost an ion of lead.

Put a lead bullet in Paracetic acid for an hour and you will see it start to dissolve before your eyes.

The best tool for removing lead is a lewis lead remover in the size for your caliber. Use it dry.

The next best thing is Kroil let it sit for a day and then use a brush wraped in choreboy copper wool.

MSDS for shooters choice:

http://www.shooters-choice.com/msds/borecleaner.pdf

MSDS for Gunk engine cleaner (similar):

http://www.gunk.com/msds/CSK3.PDF

[Steve Smith]

I have a close friend who is a chemist. He has compared the two in his lab and they are identical. GM Top Engine Cleaner is used by many many Highpower shooters in the Master and High Master classifications...including this one.


I bought my large bottle (seems like more than 15 oz) from my local GM dealer.

[romulus]

I checked the MSDS at Cornell, both have 2-butoxyethanol, 9-octadecanoic acid ammonium salt, and naphtha. Sounds the same at least when it comes to the chemical families involved.

[Jim Watson]

And "9-octadecanoic acid ammonium salt" is otherwise known as ammonium oleate as found in the Hatcher formula for Hoppe's No 9.

Shooter's Choice is NOT ammonia-free, it is just non aqueous. It will remove copper fouling in the characteristic blue ammonium complex. Just have to let it soak a little longer than the strong solutions like Sweets. No mystery magic penetrant to "lift" the copper.

[Black Snowman]

I got the Shooters Choice Copper Solvent (not the Bore Cleaner) and you can faintly smell the ammonia. I used Remington Bore Cleaner (looks like thin lapping compound and feels slightly abrasive) on a very copper coated .340 Weatherby bore until I got the lands clean then switched to the Shooters Choice to get the grooves clean the rest of the way. Took a little more work but I think I minimzed the chances of damaging the bore.

[larryw]

Another who uses GM Top Engine cleaner as a replacement for Shooter's Choice: been doing it for a long time and neither I nor my guns can tell the difference between the two (only the wallet knows ;) ).

[TN-popo]

I love Shooters Choice Bore Cleaner. The only "everything" bore cleaner I've found to be better is Butches Bore Shine (and not by much). IMO, they're the two best and I usually buy whatever is cheaper at the time.

[Master Blaster]

GM top engine cleaner MSDS

Aliphatic Petroleum Distillate = 97%
Aromatic Hydrocarbon esters = 1-3%


Shooters Choice MSDS

Aromatic solvent Naptha = 40-50%
2-Butoxyethanol = 4-5%
9 Octadecanoic acid ammonium salt = 5-15%
Mineral Oil = 5-15%
Methyl amyl alcohol = 5-15%
Other non hazardous = Balance

Ammonium salt used to clean an engine, and fuel injectors??????????????

I didnt know that engines accumulated copper fouling in them.

It must smell nice when it burns.

They are not the same, Top engine cleaner may make a great gun cleaner.
So does Gasoline, but I sure aint gonna use it.

[romulus]

Here's the link to the top engine cleaner MSDS.

http://msds.pdc.cornell.edu/msds/MSDSDOD/A5/M2230.htm

With a more detailed breakdown of the aliphatics and aromatics...

[Master Blaster]

GM Top Engine cleaner From the linked MSDS above:

2 Butoxyethanol = 20%
4-METHYL-2-PENTANOL = 5%
9-OCTADECENDIC ACID = 15%
NAPHTHA = 50%
Other Non Hazardous = 10%

I stand corrected some of the ingredients are the same.

OTOH Gunsmiths tend to just use low oder mineral spirits in their parts washers.

[romulus]

All of the ingeredients are the same...proportions for most ingredients are similar. I'd say that qualifies in common parlance as "same stuff".

[Jim Watson]

9-OCTADECENDIC ACID as listed in Top Engine Cleaner
and
9 Octadecanoic acid ammonium salt listed for Shooters Choice
are not the same stuff.
The term "ammonium salt" has real meaning as to the composition.

And, by the way, "octadecendic" acid is a misnomer, I see no such compound in CRC or on the www. The CAS number given does not bring up a chemical compound, either. Mr Goodwrench is being real sneaky about what he puts in that can.

[romulus]

Jim, "octadecendic" as such is a misspelling, so how do you know which one they're referring to? Did they mean "octadecanoic" or "octadecenoic?"

BTW, What's the difference between a decene and a decane? Been twenty years since I took organic chem...

[Jim Watson]

I am farther away from organic than 20 years, but if the claimed CAS Registry number doesn't pull a compound up, there is something wrong and it isn't just the spelling.

And the octawhatever acid in Top Engine Cleaner is NOT stated to be the ammonium salt so no matter how you spell it it is NOT the same as Shooters Choice.

[romulus]

Well, I was hoping for an informed response that could shed light on the chemistries involved, not banter about phantom CAS numbers. Maybe someone here can say how ammonium salts and decanoic acids relate. Or decenoic acids, for that matter.

But thank you

[Master Blaster]

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/o3596.htm

Here is an MSDS for Oleic Acid

the 9-OCTADECENDIC ACID

and the one in shooters choice are both transformations?? of Oleic acid.

which is a fatty acid.

Physical and Chemical Properties
Appearance:
Pale yellow or brownish-yellow oily liquid.
Odor:
Characteristic lardlike odor.
Solubility:
Insoluble in water.
Specific Gravity:
0.895 @ 25C/25C
pH:
No information found.
% Volatiles by volume @ 21C (70F):
0
Boiling Point:
360C (680F)
Melting Point:
16.3C (61F)
Vapor Density (Air=1):
No information found.
Vapor Pressure (mm Hg):
1.0 @ 176C (349F)
Evaporation Rate (BuAc=1):
No information found.

[bountyhunter]

Since the large bottles of GM Top Engine cleaner can not be shipped to kali, I tried mixing a 50-50 blend of my basic GI bore cleaner with some generic "Fuel Injection Cleaner" liquid. That mix really seemed to clean the burned residue out of the barrel grooves pretty fast just rubbing with a nylon brush. The fuel injection cleaner is pretty cheap as well (about $2 for 15 ounces).

[Steve Smith]

Just got back..ok, the salty stuff in shooter's choice isn't in TEC. Fine. Shoot my rifles and tell me is you can see a difference.