[Soap]

All this talk about SHTF has got me wondering...what sort of situations do you envision using your personal rifle in a SHTF scenario? A numbered or bulleted list would be great. NO DISCUSSION OF INDIVIDUAL RIFLES. Please name specific groups or entities instead of generalizing if at all possible.

[Drue]

1) food gathering


2) protection


Drue

[Andrew Wyatt]

What drue said.

in his order, too. I think a SHTF rifle is going to get used on the four legged way more often than the two legged.

[Skunkabilly]

Having to evacuate my home in the event of a fire, earthquake or chemical spill from the tracks a mile to the south. Since I moved out of Los Angeles, the repel boarders scenario just isn't nearly as likely.

[GySgt]

Since I moved out of Los Angeles, the repel boarders scenario just isn't nearly as likely.

That's not a very "Tactical" attitude ;)

But on to the question posed by mr. flory.....

1. The taking of game.

2. Protection fom individuals.

3. Protection from groups.

[ReadyontheRight]

Depends on the situation, but here goes:

-Arming the non-gun neighbors
-Protection of any perimeter if that makes sense in the situation
-Food gathering if we "head for the hills"

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

1. Defense (2 legged and 4 legged)
2. Offense, as needed
3. Acquisition of critters for eatin'

[QuarterBoreGunner]

I live in San Francisco. Any true Code Red SHTF situation and the whole city is going to turn into a dogs breakfast.

1. Defense/Looter Area Denial and Supression.

And that's about it.

[Snowdog]

The imagined ability to swat pinko paratroopers from American skies like silly flies?

I fully concure with Drue's succinct assessment of the rifle in SHTF situations. Anything more elaborate is merely building on those two existing foundations.

[Ian]

Hunting
Self-defense (against whom depends on the specific situation)
Psychological comfort (even if I never need it, having it there reduces the stress of being in a dangerous situation)

[E=MC^2]

When I think of the term I always envision a scenario like the one in the movie "Red Dawn". This movie could have been named "SHTF". It involves the taking of game for survival as well as defensive and offensive armed engagements. Basic sporting firearms are used until enemy combat arms are acquired.

The downed American pilot explains how the Russians and Cubans carried out the enitre attack about 3/4-way through the movie. He even covers how gunowners were tracked down for disarmament. I can't remember if it was through Federal registration records or NRA subscriptions(or both), but I faintly recall "NRA" used in the scene. It's been several years since I saw it last.

The movie is around 20-years-old now.

[Soap]

I'm not talking about situations as in applications, but rather in actual cases. For example: There is a dirty bomb that is set off 6 miles from my house, I would use my rifle to protect my home from looters. So what I am looking for is: Event X happens, I use my rifle for Y. Of course a rifle can be used for the things already listed, but I'm looking for what situations will actually drive use of those applications. I've hear people reference "Muslim extremists" but I'm not sure how I could use my rifle against Muslim extremists...enlighten me on the causes of SHTF and how you would use your rifle in that specific situation. Sorry if I wasn't specific in my original post.

E=MC^2: Wolverines!

[Swamprabbit]

I consider SHTF a little different than most. I live in a generally rural area but the nearest town does have a small hospital, sewage treatment plant, small grocery, and a couple of gas stations. Nearby is a water treatment plant that covers at least three counties' water supply. My thoughts of SHTF would be any scenario where such needed supplies, such as electricity, would be lost and we would be left to fend for ourselves (this could be a result of natural or man-made events). As a community, we would go into action making sure that the hospital, sewage plant, and water plants are kept up for obvious reasons. If the scenario played out over an extended period, we would have obvious problems maintaining diesel fuel, and other necessities, to keep these things going. Also keeping food supplies up as well.

With this, firearms would be really just for security. Wouldn't really expect much problem but since big problems normally aren't expected we would plan on making sure we are defended. Law enforcement would be quite busy with other issues in this matter. There may be problems with a few people wanting to take advantage of the times to make trouble but around here, and in the mood people would be in by then, the troublemakers will not be making trouble long.

As a community, we should be able to get through quite a bit.

[Warner]

While there are certainly no absolutes in the personal protection arena concerning SHTF scenarios, the following should cover a whole lot to help anyone better understand things when people are facing already horrible circumstances… that are deteriorating fast.

THEM
First we have to agree that a certain percentage of our population is bad or evil. Call these professional bad guys. A lesser percentage of whom can even be called psycho.

Then we must add these guys to the mix …. Call them the opportunists. These folks will be waiting for any chance to advance their cause with your possessions, money, food or maybe even with your own family.

With that behind us, we then look to another segment of the masses that will NOT handle any major incident very well. These folks can be counted upon to act irrationally, to say the least.

Our last ingredient here will be a VERY overburdened law enforcement network (which is our usual protection from THEM).

Add all that up (and it’s all very real) and you have just established a reason for some concern.

YOURS
Most likely your chosen living locale will be inhabited by a vast preponderance of good people. These will be the honest, law abiding citizens. Nice nine-to-five folks who may have never understood that something this bizarre “could ever happen here”.

They could be close friends of yours, or maybe even relatives. Most of them won’t have an effective defensive firearm between them, and certainly will not possess the training necessary to offer anyone any help in this area right now. We can assume that very, very few of them have ever visited a shooting range, or remember what really happens when you pull a trigger (if they ever knew in the first place).

YOU
You should be starting to grasp my meaning now. If you shoot regularly, as a hobbyist, you are in a special class of folks. Plus, if you’ve ever bothered to gather some “SHTF” weapons and equipment together, so much the better – the REAL better. For a rather modest investment, you now have a chance to make a real difference for yourself, your family or possibly even some others.

If you stay put (and have been granted some good common sense) you and others like you now have the option to insert yourself between the good and the bad if the want and/or need arises. If you’ve never seen the need for such firearms and equipment, no amount of “need” will produce them for you now.

The benefits of showing effective resistance to the bad side can be tremendous. It could save many lives, and possibly your whole neighborhood or location. You may be able to thwart such goings on with a bolt-action rifle, but if you or your lookouts failed (even a little) the gremlins may be infesting your location in a big way. If you have to get after them, and they WILL be armed, you had best own a rifle that’s up to the circumstances you’re facing. Going door-to-door with a Remington 700, or slugging it out in the street with pistols or shotguns simply isn’t meant for us older fellas – or anyone else that’s serious about winning.

Some of us are banking on these sorts of things never happening. Others are fully confident with their minimal weaponry (and their “skills”). While others simply don’t wish to be bothered by such things, or even plan to flee these festivities.

For me, I probably won’t be going anywhere soon, and an old saying about sums it all up, “I’d rather have it and not need it …. than need it and not have it. Thanks.

YMMV

[Dave R]

-Protection from mob in case of a large-scale riot (LA, Cincinnati)
-Protection from plunderer(s) after a temporary breakdown of social order.

Having lived through both the Loma Prieta quake in '89 (fortunately NO rioting, just a lot of helping each other out) AND Hurricane Andrew (limited looting afterwards) the latter scenario does not seem as far-fetched to me as it used to.

LA and more recently, Cincinnati, have shown the first scenario is possible.

Fact is, most urban areas have much less than a 30-day food supply in the immediate area. Any breakdown in transportation infrastructure, and people will get hungry and desperate fast.

After the Loma Preta quake, the line at the local safeway was nearly a mile long. No power, no credit cards accepted. A few people at a time were let in with flashlights and an escort. Pay cash.

Because damage was limited, resupply was not a problem. People could generally drive far enough to get more food & fuel. If damage had been more widespread, it may have been a bigger problem.

[Soap]

Now the rubber is meeting the road! Good responses.

Warner- I understand the implications of self defensive, and God forbid, offensive riflecraft. BTW- My offensive is an AR with 12 mags loaded and in a carry rig...but anyway, I'm more interested in the why, not the what happens after SHTF. If you look at any of the oddball cases in recent memory, a rifle would have been nearly useless. So I'm looking for real deal, plausible cases where the rifle would be useful. You mention door-to-door fighting, saving neighborhoods, and slugging it out on the street with what I assume are the professional BGs. I'm dying to know who the professional bad guys are and consequently how you would use a rifle to defeat them.

[Oleg Volk]

I'd say that a rifleman is most likely be useful for covering a person who, carrying concealed, ventures out to investigate suspicious happenings. If something wierd/hostile occurs, cover fire would enable retreat.

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

The rifle is always better in a defensive posture because you can project to a greater distance with more firepower. The BGs will probably have handguns, shotguns and subguns. Better to hold them off and find out their intentions.

[Devonai]

If there is ever that level of civil unrest in Massachusetts, I'll be way too busy trying to get myself to the rally point to worry about my own neighborhood... which at this point is, hopefully, rural enough to be safe from the worst of it. My roommate is NHNG, so he'll probably be called up to Manchester even if the problem is limited to the Boston area, what with the current level of deployment of infantry and MP companies out of Mass. The AG will probably need help from out-of-state Guard units for the kind of scenario we're talking about. Point is, that leaves my neighborhood without us and we with our own heap of problems.

If my roommate and I don't get called, for whatever reason, and we have hooligans wandering around Londonderry, we may dig out the commo and run simple perimeter checks to make sure our cars (and the neighbors' by proxy) aren't getting trashed.

In that case, I question the wisdom of carrying long arms outside of the home. If the cops do actually manage to patrol my neighborhood I'd really rather not draw attention to myself (assuming they see me in the first place). A concealed pistol or two is much more practical and should be plenty of firepower, if only to fight my way back to the apartment where the long arms are kept. It might also prevent said hooligans from shooting first and asking questions later, or prevent neighbors themselves firing upon me.

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Well, there are many scenarios which would require absolutely different responses. The rifle would be good for stationary/lockdown mode with no social structure. If we move into a quasi state of emergency where the police are still functioning, then you do not want to be seen with a rifle in the city. Concealment and cover.

[vrwc]

Guns are like tools, there are certian jobs that require certian tools. Lucky for me I have an extensive tool collection :)
I agree with the previous posters in any situation where you would be out and about and there was some law and order still going you wouldn't want to draw the attention of law enforcement/nat guard by having a rifle in plain view, if somethhing of that magnitude happened the "good guys" don't know you or your intentions and best case you would be detained and prevented from completing the task you were attempting to do, worst case you would be dead or on the lam forever if order was restored.

I have thought about many different SHTF's that could happen and most of them would require trading firepower for stealth and staying put.

The one situation that would cause me to "suit up" and rock and roll is where there is a huge regional disaster (man made or other) and I was seperated from my family. At that point I would round up my family doing my best to avoid any resistance and bug out to either our west safe haven or our north safe haven. If that happened I keep ready in my mode of transport the following:
Car-15,lots of mags, 12gauge,IIa kevlar helmet, level IIIa+ceramic rifle plates for the torso, handgun, enough food/water/fuel to make it to primary safe haven w/o stopping for anything.


Sadly the NFA and AWB prevent most from owing a carbine that could be readly kept out of sight. The 14.5", Collapsable stock m4ergy would be perfect for that role

[vrwc]

an addition to my post, unless there is a dire need in most SHTF cases its at best risky and could be considerd foolish to undertake offensive missions as individual, wait until you can form up at least a 3-4 man team. If its chi-coms/blue helmets/or even gang bangers they will be traveling in packs/squads and engaging with those odds even if only by harrasing sniper fire will just draw unwanted attention, it would be best to escape and regroup before going on the offensive, if you have a place to go outside of the SHTF area property is not worth dying for. I know some people dont have the luxury of having remote places to bug out for them, hopefull they could make friends in the same area so they could collapse and defend an area

[SteelyDan]

Possible causes? Oh man, the one that will probably happen will be something we can't predict. But, just for the sake of discussion: (1) terrorist attack (nuke, chem, bio, dirty bomb), (2) weather (hurricanes, tornados, blizzards, floods, drought), (3) disease (evolution of existing bugs or tramsmittal of existing ebola, marberg, smallpox, etc., (4) volcanos (including the big ones, as in the Yellowstone caldera may be getting ready, sometime in the next few hundred generations, maybe sooner, to deposit three feet of ash over North America), (5) collisions with space objects like comets or asteroids (they wiped out the dinosaurs and seriously dissed Siberia 100 years ago), (6) accidental nuclear launches (by us or them, who knows what the response will be), (7) economic depression and/or political coup/revolution, (8) accidental release of icky bio/nano tech agents, (9) Hillary gets elected president, (10) big solar flare that fries all electronics, (11) major earthquakes, and (12) all the other stuff I can't even think of right now.

Okay, I'm probably tin-hat material just for producing a list like this, but the truth is that any one of them could happen. If they don't, great, but if they do, we'll all have to deal with mass panic situations, localized or otherwise. Any one of these scenarios could result in bad or desperate guys looking for food, water, and shelter from easy victims. I don't plan to be an easy victim.

[Beetle Bailey]

Okay, here goes:

1. A riot or other type of civil unrest occurs (can't say that's not a possibility here in LA). If it's anything like the last one, the looters won't be going door to door. They will loot businesses. Since I don't own any businesses, I would just hole up in the house with rifles at the ready. At some point, order would be restored (hopefully before I run out of food and water) and then it's back to normal. The rifles would be just in case someone was stupid enough to try to get my meager supplies when there are several supermarkets within a two mile radius. And same thing with earthquakes, floods, etc.

2. A "dirty bomb" is detonated in the city. I'm getting the Duck out of Fodge. I just go east until the gas runs out. I either learn to hunt with the rifle or starve.

3. North Korea hits us with a nuke. I hold my rifles one last time and we all die a fiery death. (This is one depressing thread. . . :rolleyes: )

[Warner]

First, no one ever suggested going it alone. But individuals that can actually assist in this kind of endeavor will not be commonplace.

Mr. Flory asked about BG’s.

BG’s can be singles, travel in pairs or greater, up to and including that proverbial outlaw MC gang. They may be gang members, or just long-term disenfranchised individuals with poor attitudes from places that didn’t have nearly as many supplies as yours, and they combined “forces”, and then took undue notice of your supplies.

Make no mistake here. The real criminal BG believes you and I to be merely sheep when compared to his wolf persona. He thinks (and is correct) that he can accomplish things like a home invasion with little more than his loud voice and gruff manner. Chances are that he won’t find one of US at home (we are seldom that lucky). He WILL find some of those nicer and more mild mannered folks mention earlier. Usually these types will strive to avoid doing anything that upsets him. Those sorts of things would be cancers of the worst kind if it were taking place anywhere near your location. Then just multiply this (and him) times 2 or 5 or 10 (or more) to gauge things for any response that you're planning on making, and which rifle you'd like to have in your hands.

You’ll probably find a BG possessing all manner of small, medium and large handguns, shotguns, pistol carbines and the occasional AR, AK or SKS. Seldom (but maybe) will you find any bigger stuff.

If and when it’s time to clean house, we’ll need, among other things, weapons that have superior range, superior barrier penetration and follow-ups and superior terminal ballistics after barrier penetration to his. We’ll need to know that nearly whatever he chooses to hide behind, we will come out ahead. Rest assured (if we have some luck) that he’ll quickly understand our position by all those 2600+ fps/nearly 150 grain/.30 caliber bullets that somehow keep finding him.

It won’t matter if it’s 20 yards or 200; if it's a home invader or something else. Any proven deadly threat to you and yours (under such circumstances) simply has to go, and YOU need to possess the means to do that before he has any chance to do anything at all.

Of course, this would be under SHTF conditions. :D

[Joe Demko]

Scenario 1: The dead rise from the grave to feast on the flesh of the living. In this situation, I would need my automatic rifle to destroy the zombies' brains. Particularly after they have sensed your presence and begin showing up in numbers, you need the volume of fire and speed of delivery that only a high capacity automatic rifle can deliver. Although they aren't quite the same thing, plague zombies can be effectively handled in a similar fashion.

Scenario 2: Spikey-haired Mutants riding motorcycles and dune buggies invade my neighborhood with the intention of sodomizing everybody to death, then cannibalizing them. Once again, speed and volume of fire are important. Just as important, though, is the capability to effectively engage and defeat thin-skinned vehicles. Shotguns, pistol-caliber carbines, and handguns are going to come up short against an armada of dune buggies with harpoon launchers on their backs. The spikey-haired mutants themselves are known to wear various types of field-expedient armor eg. black-painted fottball pads, so the additional penetration of a rifle is a real plus.

Scenario 3: They (you do know who "they" are, don't you?) successfully initiate their plan to alter the cellular architecture of our brains by contaminating the potable water supplies with nanobots. The nanobots receive their instructions and power from cell phones. That's why they're called cell phones. Everybody who drinks potable water and talks on a cell phone becomes a tool of the Conspiracy. Don't be a tool. In this situation, a rifle is far less useful than adequate supplies of cider vinegar and a knowledge of the sinister signifigance of pancakes. Nonetheless, I can forsee a need for the rifle if They recognize me as a nexus of The Resistance. One of those .50 BMG rifles might be just the ticket for destruction of key cell towers if a particular region still had a rescuable population with unaltered brain cell architecture.

[Soap]

Warner- BG...give me a name. I can dream up SHTF fantasies all day long too. I want to know who this faceless enemy is. My whole motivation for this thread is because I'm tired of the pronoun game. Gang members? The "gangs" in my area are pathetic and there isn't really a "hood" to get lost in at 3AM. I simply want to know exactly who people are envisioning the BGs to be.

Golgo-13- Don't forget your list on the other SHTF thread. Especially the piano wire garrotte! ;)

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

As conditions change, so do people. In scarcity there is panic. Under civil order, the politicians take from productive people who thrive on self-reliance and give to those that are "needy." On the world stage, governments take from thos that have and give to the have nots. If the SHTF, then there will be large groups of fellow citizens that do not have sustenance. When their survival instinct kicks in, they will not hesitate to do harm to you to obtain water, food, fuel, shelter. Think of those people in your area that live in bliss and do not plan. They do not have earthquake kits, or hurricane kits, or did not plan for Y2K, they do not have cash, they do not have stores. They may be ordinary, civil persons until an emergency strikes, their stomach growels, they get thirsty, or cold, or panic and need gas to get out. Yes, this is bordering on being paranoid. But, these are the people most of us will face. To complicate matters, gang bangers are easy. You know their ill intent. These people will appeal to your good heart for some help. They may get inside your defenses. This is the danger.

[Skunkabilly]

Golgo, you forgot the possibility of blue helmeted alien fallschirmjagers [sp?] :rolleyes:

[vrwc]

Who would be the bad guys?
My generic answer would be any individual or group of inviduals that presents a threat to my family and myself.
My definetion of threat:
Immediate Physical Harm
Theft of items needed to survive
A whole lot of BG's could meet this criteria, in no specific order:
Looters
Freeloaders (the ones who failed to plan and try to take my families supplies)
Terrorists
Common Thugs
Occupation Force (ie blue helmet/chi-coms) <-this one is streching it
Law Enforcement <- I hope not
Our Millitary (This one i doubt, and would hope not even more

[Warner]

Daniel Flory - here they are; Tom Jennings, Bob Mabrey and his brother Tim, Roberto Suarez, John "Yanker" Jones, Bobby Marquis and Thomas Allen Williams III (but he's just a wannabe).

HTH

[Soap]

Warner- Now we're getting somewhere! Unfortunately, I have no idea who any of those people are. Why should I be concerned with them? Are they cultists? Supremacists? Aum Shinrikyo style weirdos?

[Warner]

That's the point, you won't really know until the dust settles. Knowing such information is a luxury few will enjoy. That's where proper preparation comes in (back-up, mindset, equipment).

And here all I was worried about was if you were going to ask me why they call him "Yanker"!

[ReadyontheRight]

Scenario -- The power goes out and battery-operated radios and tvs cannot receive any kind of signal.

How quickly would urban society fall apart? 4 hours? 2 days?

[GySgt]

How quickly would urban society fall apart? 4 hours? 2 days?
In L.A......it wouldn't even take 4 hours :scrutiny:

[QuarterBoreGunner]

As I stated, I live in San Francisco- my main concern for a true SHTF situation revolves primarily around earthquakes and the resultant chaos. The local office of emergency management (a ludicrous concept itself ‘managing an emergency’) has told the public, that in the event of a major quake, prepare to be without city services for at least three days. Three days without police response. Now factor in the various ‘opportunists’ that would take advantage of the lack of police during those three days. We’re not LA or Cincinnati, but the last time we had a major citywide blackout, back in 1998, I think, there were cases of looting and robbery. And that was just a blackout.

I’d like to think that the situation would be more like it was in the aftermath of the Loma Prieta

fortunately NO rioting, just a lot of helping each other out

But I'm not going to count on it. Surrounded on three sides by water, with two major bridges most likely being put out of commision, not to mention the various highway overpasses.

Things would probably go bad pretty quickly. I hope not, but like I said, I'm not counting on it.

[Skunkabilly]

Planes slamming into buildings and a massive blackout didn't even cause NYC to go berserk.

[Dave R]

Skunk, that's a good point about NYC and 9/11.

I think the thing that kept everyone sane was that they could drive a relatively short distance and get everything they need. More food, fresh water, power, shower, etc. Also, Government services were still largely available, and Police and Fire did respond, although responses prolly got stretched quite a bit.

I believe a regional disaster has to be big enough that you can't reach "civilization" and resupply in your car. A multi-state thing. 400mi radius of disruption, or something like that. Loma Prieta was not nearly that big. In that situation--regional disruption--I believe things go bad for a short time, but order is eventually restored cuz the rest of the nation will rally to the aid of the distressed area.

If 1/3 of the nation or more is disrupted, then things could get bad longer. Takes awhile for the "organism" (nation) to heal from a wound that big.

OTOH, the LA riots and Cincinnati riots had nothing to do with physical disruption. Just a whole lotta people who decided to ignore the normal rules.

So my SHTF preparations incude a choice of rifles that enable me to deter a mob--lots of firepower. An AK or an AR would deter a mob, I believe. Don't think a boltgun would.

[george_co]

In my case I live in a rural County with 13 state and federal prisons containing almost 20,000 criminals. Some of the prisons are maximum and supermaximum housing some of the worst people in the country.

I have been told, from reliable sources, that during the Y2K debacle, the plan was to release the majority of the prisoners if power failed. They would keep the worst but release the rest because they couldn't feed them or keep them contained becuase of the power failure. :fire:

Many of these folks are Muslims. Now I don't want to be accused of being racist, but they are already in jail, some for terrorest (sp) activities. I don't think it is a great stretch to think that some or most of these folks might want to get out and cause trouble, and might have help since one of these guys is the Sheik who planned the first WTC bombing.

On the bright side, I am not the only guy in town with a M1A.:D

Just one group that might need attention.

Be Safe!

[Kurt]

While 9 – 11 / NYC was an attack on every one of us as Americans, I don’t believe it’s a valid example of what we're discussing here. SHTF usually describes first, a complete turnover......and then a severe shaking of what we all currently know as everyday life.

NYC was a VERY localized event, and was "SHTF" for only those affected. If anyone of those poor folks could have managed to get a ½ mile away from ground zero in time, they would have been in friendly hands…… and in no need of any personal equipment whatsoever, especially firearms.

I don’t know why Skunk and some others believe such a singular localized attack like NYC might serve to trigger folks in the rest of our country to put on their SHTF helmets. That example doesn’t work as well for me as one that offers some poor conditions (and very few supplies) prevailing over a long period of time.

[User Name]

Two things:

1. Home grown looters who want to take your stuff

2. Government thugs following orders.

[Warner]

And a valid third category might very well be the desperate people. Anyone exposed to extended hunger, sickness and even cold can be affected negatively. And then they might become anti-social enough to be a concern.