.223 or 5.56 Hornady TAP FPD and Drywall Penetration


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lee1000
January 3, 2010, 02:44 PM
I have an LWRC AR15 with a 1:7 twist, chambered in 5.56 and a 16" barrel. I'm looking for some home defense ammo that will not go through my entire apartment complex. I'm looking at 60grn TAP FPD, but I'm not 100% sure if that the right choice for my situation. I don't see myself having to use it at a range longer than 15 yards (I don't own a shotgun and I'm not sure about using that for HD anyways). I've shot 55 gr Centurion at 100m and it groups well. I would of course like to have 5.56 75 gr TAP 8126N for LE but it seems too heavy for my situation. One thing I do like about the TAP FPD is that it has a propellant designed to reduce muzzle flash.

What do you guys recommend? Please note that I live by myself, it’s my neighbors that I have to worry about.

Hornady TAP website
http://www.hornady.com/store/searchammo.php?main_cat=249&mode=search&categoryid%5B%5D=256&categoryid%5B%5D=280&categoryid%5B%5D=&x=13&y=14

Hornady TAP LE website
http://www.hornadyle.com/products/detail.php?id=72&sID=75

The ammo I'm looking at is:
223 55 gr TAP FPD SKU: 83278

223 60 gr TAP FPD SKU: 83288

223 75 gr TAP FPD SKU: 80268

LE Ammo:
223 55 gr. TAP URBAN 83276

223 60 gr. TAP URBAN 83286

223 75 GR TAP BTHP 80265

5.56 75 gr. BTHP W/C T2 8126N

Thanks in advance for your expertise

I searched this subject all day on ammo oracle and else where and really didn't find what i was looking for.

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Ol` Joe
January 3, 2010, 04:20 PM
Personal opinion only. I believe anything that will penitrate enough to reliably stop a man will penitrate a wall, likely a couple walls.

Why not buy a piece of dry wall and cut it into small sections, say 1'x1', and back them together and see what your ammo does at various ranges? You`ll get the best idea that way for yourself and a 4x8 sheet should allow a lot of different ammo to be tested.

meytind
January 3, 2010, 04:44 PM
5.56 is great for not over-penetrating PEOPLE. Like all rounds that will stop people, 5.56 will fly straight through the cheap junk the average apartment is made of. You might have a chance with frangible rounds, but I have heard that when they hit drywall, they act just like FMJ.

I think a better idea is to identify your most probable fields of fire in the event of a life or death situation. Then, you put a bunch of really dense, multi-layered stuff in between the wall and where the bad guy would be standing in those fields. I'm talking about things like heavy wooden dressers full of clothing, book shelves, etc. That way, any rounds that miss the bad guy impact these buffers and will probably not penetrate into adjacent apartments.
Good luck, I live in a similar situation and besides the advice I just gave you, all I can say is don't miss.

rcmodel
January 3, 2010, 04:52 PM
Click - Results / More info - "View" beside each load to see ballistics gel results.

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/detail.php?id=130&sID=73

You will get the least over-penetration with the 40 & 55 grain TAP.

The most with the heavier 60 grain.

Any of the three will stop a human DRT.

rc

DMK
January 3, 2010, 05:08 PM
I think meytind has it right. Harden your walls, don't weaken your SD round.

I wouldn't want to defend myself with anything that can't penetrate drywall. Heck, you can penetrate it with a sharpened pencil and a rubber band. Humans are tougher than drywall.

benEzra
January 3, 2010, 06:33 PM
I like Federal 55gr JHP as a good compromise between fragility and penetration, in a situation like this.

I have heard that when they hit drywall, they act just like FMJ.
The lighter weight .223's will fragment on drywall, though they'll probably penetrate two or three walls before doing so. The wounding potential on the back side of even a single wall is significantly less than with handgun rounds, though (which do tend to plug up and keep on going).

Maverick223
January 3, 2010, 08:38 PM
I chose 55gr. TAP for my .223/5.56 (with 21.5in. bbl), because that is what weight I use at the range, making the trajectory fairly similar (not that it will be an issue in a HD situation) as well as offering plenty of penetration. At one time this was my primary long gun, but it has been replaced and is now my back-up, back-up long gun (after the Saiga-12, and M1 Carbine), so I hope to never have to test it in a real world scenario.

:)

wishin
January 3, 2010, 09:10 PM
I think a better idea is to identify your most probable fields of fire in the event of a life or death situation. Then, you put a bunch of really dense, multi-layered stuff in between the wall and where the bad guy would be standing in those fields. I'm talking about things like heavy wooden dressers full of clothing, book shelves, etc. That way, any rounds that miss the bad guy impact these buffers and will probably not penetrate into adjacent apartments.

+1
This is your best option short of installing a bullet proof barrier.

[Pb]
January 4, 2010, 04:08 AM
I also live in cramped apartment conditions- the only thing I could think of to minimize the risk is to aim for upper body/head if I have to defend myself. My neighbors will probably be sleeping, so my hope is that it will pass over them. It's a sticky situation though.


You are actually in a better position because you are using a 5.56 rifle. With light, hollowpoint bullets, there is less penetration on drywall than with most pistol or shotgun loads that are viable for HD.

C-grunt
January 4, 2010, 05:05 AM
Check out the Federal Tactical 55 grain stuff. Its what my duty rifle is loaded with. After we did some testing with it I got some for my personal rifle as well. It works really well. My department has never had a failure using this round and they havent heard of one from any other agencies either.

But even frangible 5.56 will penetrate walls if you miss. make your hits count. Its not who shoots first that wins the gunfight, its who gets good hits.

627PCFan
January 4, 2010, 10:08 AM
"My neighbors will probably be sleeping, so my hope is that it will pass over them" ---

IMO if this is a valid concern, you need to re-evaluate your tactics- :what:

nastynatesfish
January 4, 2010, 11:33 AM
check out the DRT ammo. they sell it in 9mm 40cal 223 3006 and 308. its pricey but worht it if you live in a tight spaces.

Angleiron
January 4, 2010, 11:49 AM
If your goal was to use the AR for home defense...only...and less than 15 yards it is my opinion that you might want to consider other options. I have an AR, shotgun, and a
9mm handgun...and I bought all 3 with certain scenarios in mind. The shotgun will always be your best bet in HD, and at 15 yards you are looking at 5" pattern compared to having to be extremely accurate with the AR. The sound of a pump shotgun cycling a shell helps as well in putting an end to things, as there is no confusing as to what comes next after hearing that sound.

Here was my thoughts in buying what I did;

AR = 50+ yards
Shotgun = 0-50 yards
Handgun = less than 10 yards

Water-Man
January 4, 2010, 02:29 PM
The best SD ammo for your AR with a 1:7 twist is 75gr. or 77gr. TAP or OTM.

DMK
January 4, 2010, 03:11 PM
The shotgun will always be your best bet in HD, and at 15 yards you are looking at 5" pattern compared to having to be extremely accurate with the AR. One of the things that always concerned me about a shotgun is you have a spread of pellets or shot and a few of them are likely going to miss your target. I feel a lot more comfortable about getting all my shots into center of mass with a carbine than with a shotgun or handgun, no matter what the range. It's better to keep track of one projectile rather than nine. Keep in mind that many police forces use carbines instead of shotguns these days.

There is also the simplicity of one weapon to learn and use from 0 to 200yds (not that I see ever needing to make a 100y+ shot).

There are things you need to know and practice to use an AR15 carbine at close range though. For example sight over bore is 2.5". You need to account for this at close range or you will overshoot your target. Under 15y, I aim using the center of the sight post instead of the tip (and the bottom of the reticule on my red dot).

[Pb]
January 4, 2010, 03:42 PM
"My neighbors will probably be sleeping, so my hope is that it will pass over them" ---

IMO if this is a valid concern, you need to re-evaluate your tactics-



The only time there would be an issue with overpenetration is if an intruder was already in my room when I woke up. If I fired at head level while laying in my bed 3 feet off the ground, it would pass into the neighbor's apartment around ceiling level- much less likely to hurt someone.

Maverick223
January 4, 2010, 04:04 PM
The only time there would be an issue with overpenetration is if an intruder was already in my room when I woke up. If I fired at head level while laying in my bed 3 feet off the ground, it would pass into the neighbor's apartment around ceiling level- much less likely to hurt someone.I am glad i'm not your neighbor. :uhoh:

ants
January 4, 2010, 04:05 PM
Don't ask me how I know...

From a distance of 10 feet, 223 Rem with a 55g fmj will pass through 4 inches of newspaper, a whole door frame, the double 2x4 studs behind the frame, a layer of drywall, fly across the room, penetrate another layer of drywall, a 2x4 stud at an angle, turn sideways, 3.5" R-13 batt insulation, 1 inch rigid insulation, 7/8" 3-coat stucco (sideways!!!), across the patio, through the very corner of a 4x4 post, and half way across the back yard to bury itself half way in 3/4" plywood.

Just don't ask me how I know.

With a FPD round, it will probably penetrate only 2/3 to 3/4 as much as an fmj. Please don't underestimate a rifle round, even if it's FPD.

Mike128
January 4, 2010, 04:09 PM
http://www.theboxotruth.com/

Interesting website. The made a box with replaceable dry wall sections and shot several types of ammo at it in several calibers. Gives an idea of how a bullet reacts to drywall.

Maverick223
January 4, 2010, 04:11 PM
From a distance of 10 feet, 223 Rem with a 55g fmj will pass through 4 inches of newspaper, a whole door frame, the double 2x4 studs behind the frame, a layer of drywall, fly across the room, penetrate another layer of drywall, a 2x4 stud at an angle, turn sideways, 3.5" R-13 batt insulation, 1 inch rigid insulation, 7/8" 3-coat stucco (sideways!!!), across the patio, through the very corner of a 4x4 post, and half way across the back yard to bury itself half way in 3/4" plywood.Sounds like a good test...must have took you hours to set that up just right. :rolleyes: :uhoh:

TexasRifleman
January 4, 2010, 04:14 PM
There is a reason that most LE agencies and the military are using the TAP style bullet design in the 75gr flavor for their close quarters carbines.

There is a reason that these same agencies are moving from the shotgun to the carbine for close quarters firearms.

If you want to try to outthink all that experience and research go ahead, but for me it's enough reason to use it. They tend to shoot at REAL people and REAL walls more often than I do, so I'll go with their judgement.

Extremely Pro Gun
January 4, 2010, 04:15 PM
For my apartment I use 6 shot in my supernova tactical. It will end someone and loose lots of power through walls. My HG choice would be a hi-cap 45 or 40.

[Pb]
January 4, 2010, 04:25 PM
I am glad i'm not your neighbor.


I said it was a sticky situation living in an apartment. :D


I've had a few people try to break into my house/break my skull around here though, so while I don't want to shoot, I've prepared for the possibility.

lee1000
January 4, 2010, 05:22 PM
There is a reason that most LE agencies and the military are using the TAP style bullet design in the 75gr flavor for their close quarters carbines.

There is a reason that these same agencies are moving from the shotgun to the carbine for close quarters firearms.

If you want to try to outthink all that experience and research go ahead, but for me it's enough reason to use it. They tend to shoot at REAL people and REAL walls more often than I do, so I'll go with their judgement.
Texasrifleman,
So why the 75gr vs something lighter. Do you think they go with that because of the possibility of having to shoot longer distances? I don't see myself shooting >15yards. I would think a 55 or 60 FPD polymer tip round would penetrate less.

Thanks for the advise,

You guys that answer all of these newb questions really contribute to the gun community.

nathan
January 4, 2010, 05:54 PM
All of these bullets undoubtedly will go thru walls esp with velocities in the 3000 ft sec range. Best is use a .38 Special cartridge clocking at 800 ft sec enough to make a badguy bleed and learn his lessons.

TexasRifleman
January 4, 2010, 07:04 PM
Texasrifleman,
So why the 75gr vs something lighter. Do you think they go with that because of the possibility of having to shoot longer distances? I don't see myself shooting >15yards. I would think a 55 or 60 FPD polymer tip round would penetrate less.

My understanding, and again I'm not into re inventing the wheel I just read what the professionals use, is that you still have to weigh the terminal ballistics of the bullet. Over penetration is SECOND to stopping the bad guy.

And, the 75gr bullet seems to be the best at that, while maintaining acceptable safety margins for over penetration.

You are probably right that the advantage of having one bullet for most distances plays into it but who knows how much.

All of these bullets undoubtedly will go thru walls esp with velocities in the 3000 ft sec range.

Absolutely. What matters is how much energy is left in either a complete bullet or the larger fragments after that FIRST piece of wall, or bad guy.

Candiru
January 4, 2010, 07:44 PM
A friend and I did some drywall penetration tests with a variety of .223 rounds designed for self-defense. Here are the results. (http://230grain.com/showthread.php?t=65428) We used the 55-grain and 60-grain TAP offerings, as well as some Fiocchi ammo that uses 40-grain V-Max bullets that are likely similar to what's used in 40-grain TAP.

The 40-grain V-Max bullet blew to smithereens in the first wall and spattered the second wall with fragments, almost none of which got any further. 55-grain TAP drilled clean through all three walls with no evidence of fragmentation or tumbling. 60-grain TAP broke into two pieces in the first wall, both of which went into the second wall; the third wall received only chunks, few of which made it through even the first wall.

The big winners in .223 were softpoint rounds, none of which seemed to do more than spray the second wall with fragments. Handgun rounds and buckshot blew clean through the drywall as if it weren't there.

Read the article (http://230grain.com/showthread.php?t=65428) for pictures and speculation about why rifle rounds would get stopped more easily by drywall than handgun or shotgun projectiles. As others have said, there's a reason that professional door-kickers have moved from shotguns and submachineguns to ARs. For home-defense, my testing has shown softpoints to be most desirable if penetration is to be minimized without sacrificing bullet weight or penetration in a living target.

Maverick223
January 4, 2010, 08:32 PM
And, the 75gr bullet seems to be the best at that, while maintaining acceptable safety margins for over penetration.

You are probably right that the advantage of having one bullet for most distances plays into it but who knows how much.I personally wouldn't choose the 75gr. if overpenetration is a concern, because IIRC it uses a Hornady A-Max bullet that is better constructed than the V-Max, which is used in the other TAP rounds. I would speculate that the 75gr. choice is two fold: first to ensure that the round retains the ability to penetrate soft body armor, and because some SWAT snipers choose a .223Rem. rifle rather than a .308Win.

:)

Uncle Mike
January 4, 2010, 09:19 PM
Light F A S T bullet....limited penetration!

TexasRifleman
January 4, 2010, 09:30 PM
The 75gr TAP uses the Hornady #2279 bullet with a cannelure added, not the A-MAX, according to this thread over at ARFCOM. Hornady themselves don't seem to specify.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=387471

The V-MAX bullet is #22792.

I'm not exactly sure what the difference is.

That thread is worth reading, more detail on the TAP ammo then I've ever seen anywhere else.... like serious overload LOL

Maverick223
January 4, 2010, 10:05 PM
That thread is worth reading, more detail on the TAP ammo then I've ever seen anywhere else.... like serious overload LOLYep, good info., I stand corrected, it is not A-Max, but it is a match bullet that might not (and probably won't) limit penetration very much.

:)

TexasRifleman
January 4, 2010, 10:14 PM
ut it is a match bullet that might not (and probably won't) limit penetration very much.

Yeah that I have no idea on. Interesting read though.....

I've always understood it to be the exact same OTM bullet used in the Mk262Mod0 ammo, but that might not be right either.

lee1000
January 5, 2010, 03:14 AM
Thanks Candiru for posting that link. It was very helpful.

Big_E
January 5, 2010, 04:11 AM
My fist can penetrate drywall...:rolleyes:
I have also seen people throw drumsticks through drywall.

My suggestion, go with any pistol caliber from .380acp to .45acp, JHP of course. I have seen most .223 ammo go through several walls, you don't want to know what a .30-06 will do going through walls, a dryer and a few other things. (yep, someone was killed by an accidental discharge.)

C-grunt
January 5, 2010, 05:17 AM
I heard the heavy rounds are more likely to yaw because of their length and then break apart. Had an instructor in the Academy who shot a bad guy who was about to execute a hostage, with a 70+ grn 5.56 at a range of around 15 feet. The round broke apart inside the upper chest and two fragments exited the bad guy striking the hostage (the shot was from behind). Luckily they had little energy left and barely broke skin.

C-grunt
January 5, 2010, 05:23 AM
Oh quick story about penetration of the M855.

My friends father in law recently AD'd his Ar inside his bedroom. The round penetrated a dresser, through an interior wall, through a porcelain bathtub, through a bathroom cabinet, through another drywall and then out the back of his house.

Not something I would use for home defense!!!

meytind
January 5, 2010, 01:18 PM
Yep, steel core rounds will definitely penetrate too far in a home defense scenario ;). Glad no one was hurt from that AD.

Maverick223
January 5, 2010, 03:15 PM
My friends father in law recently AD'd his Ar inside his bedroom. The round penetrated a dresser, through an interior wall, through a porcelain bathtub, through a bathroom cabinet, through another drywall and then out the back of his house.

Not something I would use for home defense!!!Sounds like a bad day to me...I agree, it is not suitable for SD, unless you are being attacked by a Buick. :D

DMK
January 5, 2010, 03:16 PM
My friends father in law recently AD'd his Ar inside his bedroom. The round penetrated a dresser, through an interior wall, through a porcelain bathtub, through a bathroom cabinet, through another drywall and then out the back of his house.Think about what these things are made of these days.

Anything capable of 12" of penetration in a human being will easily pass through 1/4" pressed board, porcelain and drywall.

What is the difference between shooting a bad guy in your home or somewhere on a street? The effects of a miss or overpenetration are a concern either way.

C-grunt
January 5, 2010, 03:28 PM
Yep, steel core rounds will definitely penetrate too far in a home defense scenario ;). Glad no one was hurt from that AD.
Ohh someone was. Mom in law kicked his @ss!!!

C-grunt
January 5, 2010, 03:31 PM
Think about what these things are made of these days.

Anything capable of 12" of penetration in a human being will easily pass through 1/4" pressed board, porcelain and drywall.

What is the difference between shooting a bad guy in your home or somewhere on a street? The effects of a miss or overpenetration are a concern either way.
If it comes down to me shooting bad guys in the street with my Colt, I probably wont be to worried about the effect of misses...


But I get what you're saying.

Maverick223
January 5, 2010, 03:32 PM
ohh someone was. Mom in law kicked his @ss!!!lol :D

ronbuick
January 5, 2010, 07:26 PM
why not a handgun like a .32 or a .380 plus easier to handle in CQB

Ron

benEzra
January 5, 2010, 07:49 PM
My suggestion, go with any pistol caliber from .380acp to .45acp, JHP of course. I have seen most .223 ammo go through several walls, you don't want to know what a .30-06 will do going through walls, a dryer and a few other things. (yep, someone was killed by an accidental discharge.)
Again, it depends greatly on which .223 loads one is speaking of.

Candiru just posted pics upthread, in which certain .223 loads penetrated less than 00 buckshot and some pistol rounds:

http://230grain.com/showthread.php?t=65428

A lot of the ".223 penetrates like heck" view comes from military FMJ, not civilian JHP's or SP's.

Maverick223
January 5, 2010, 08:33 PM
why not a handgun like a .32 or a .380 plus easier to handle in CQBThat is th perfect thing to get you to your real gun (a shotgun or a rifle). :D

trigga
January 5, 2010, 11:31 PM
i didn't think it was going to, but the hornady 55 gr tap completely penetrated the deer i shot this year. the heart turned jello and about an inch exit hole. weird cause the front arm was no where near the entrance hole but broke the bone clean off, maybe impact or cause of the tumble effect. this is a wicked round to shoot someone down with. not a bad choice.

Maverick223
January 5, 2010, 11:51 PM
...weird cause the front arm was no where near the entrance hole but broke the bone clean offYou shot a deer with an arm? :uhoh: :neener:

trigga
January 6, 2010, 01:13 AM
it was a heart shot but some how the arm broke off completely. arm/leg, same thing.

Shadow Man
January 6, 2010, 02:00 AM
Maverick, the MK262 Mod1 is similar to the 75gr round discussed above, although it is in the 77gr variety. Having seen the effects of a MK262 at a variety of ranges, I can tell you with certainty that it closely replicates the results of a 7.62x51mm HP without the overpenetration concerns. If I had to use a 5.56x45mm system as my HD weapon, I would try to replicate that round as closely as possible, and steer very, very far away from 55gr or 62gr varieties.

From a distance of 10 feet, 223 Rem with a 55g fmj will pass through 4 inches of newspaper, a whole door frame, the double 2x4 studs behind the frame, a layer of drywall, fly across the room, penetrate another layer of drywall, a 2x4 stud at an angle, turn sideways, 3.5" R-13 batt insulation, 1 inch rigid insulation, 7/8" 3-coat stucco (sideways!!!), across the patio, through the very corner of a 4x4 post, and half way across the back yard to bury itself half way in 3/4" plywood.

You don't want to know what a 180gr Winchester .30-30 Silvertip will do inside a home :D (my house though, I could fix the holes and not tell a soul)

Maverick223
January 6, 2010, 02:11 AM
Having seen the effects of a MK262 at a variety of ranges, I can tell you with certainty that it closely replicates the results of a 7.62x51mm HP without the overpenetration concerns.Thank you Professor. :D

Shadow Man
January 6, 2010, 11:51 AM
Thank you Professor.

Anytime Pupil :D

Maverick223
January 6, 2010, 12:37 PM
Anytime PupilI'm not worthy, Master http://forums.nitroexpress.com/images/graemlins/smilies/general/notworthy.gif

Shadow Man
January 6, 2010, 12:44 PM
Where do you find those little guys?

FRJ
January 6, 2010, 12:48 PM
I was stuck with the exact same problem. I don't know of any single projectile firearm that will not go thru the walls of my apt. Thinking that your going to wake up in the middle of the night and make well placed shots on an intruder is wishful thinking at its worst. It would do me no good to shoot one of my neighbors in an accidental hit while trying to stop an intruder. I finally settled on an 870 rem with a 20" barrel loaded with #8 shot. Sounds weird but at the ranges that would be encountered in my apt it would hit an intruder like a one ounce solid yet loose a lot if not all of its penetration in the dry wall seperating our apts. I don't know if there are really any good choices but I do know that my neighbors don't deserve to get injured of die because I choose to use a weapon that will penetrate my walls and theirs. FRJ

Shadow Man
January 6, 2010, 12:52 PM
but I do know that my neighbors don't deserve to get injured of die because I choose to use a weapon that will penetrate my walls and theirs.

Ah, responsibility. Have you tested your setup on actual drywall? I'm just curious as to its effects.

Maverick223
January 6, 2010, 02:25 PM
Where do you find those little guys?I actually get them from another forum (NE Forum)...They have the best selection that I have seen. http://forums.nitroexpress.com/images/graemlins/smilies/general/box.gif

FRJ, I realize you are worried about over-penetration, but I would suggest something at least in the B, BB, T birdshot size and preferably No. 1 (what I use), or No. 4 Buck.

:)

Bartholomew Roberts
January 6, 2010, 04:04 PM
Sounds weird but at the ranges that would be encountered in my apt it would hit an intruder like a one ounce solid yet loose a lot if not all of its penetration in the dry wall seperating our apts.

No, it will not. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=381023)

Think about it. If it loses its penetration in 5/8" of drywall, it sure isn't going to penetrate flesh like a one ounce solid.

In the linked test above, #7.5 shot penetrated 5.9" (counting the deepest penetrating pellet). So assuming no bones, no intervening obstacles or limbs, and a perfect frontal shot, you've got enough depth for at least one pellet to get there.

I realize that "Don't miss" isn't the advice anyone wants to hear; but let's look at the facts:

The only way to stop a person is to shut down their brain by damaging the central nervous system directly (brain/spine) or by depriving it of oxygen to operate (circulatory system). Anything less than this leaves the choice to the attacker about whether they want to continue.

The central nervous system and vital organs are well-protected by bone, muscle and fat. Depending on the angle to the target, you may need as much as 12" of penetration to reach them on an average human male (note that is average).

Anything that penetrates 12" of bone and tissue is going to penetrate two 5/8" thick pieces of drywall and have a lot of energy left over if it misses the intended target.

Now I am not saying you shouldn't use #8 shot. I don't know you from Adam and that may be the best of a series of tough choices that suits your situation. I am saying that you shouldn't delude yourself that #8 shot is going to magically act much differently in people than it does in drywall. An interior apartment wall isn't a very substantial barrier. Heck, you can probably put your fist through both sides if you don't hit a stud. If you are adamant that what you use for self-defense not penetrate that kind of barrier, then a firearm may not be the best choice for self-defense for that scenario.

C-grunt
January 6, 2010, 05:40 PM
As a LEO I have seen a few people shot with birdshot. The only ones that died were executed at contact range. And even then only one died right away, the others died in the hospital from complications/infection.

We have actually had a guy shot in the head with birdshot at a range of around 30 feet and he was able to call 911, give a description of the bad guys and his location to the arriving officers and then walked himself to the ambulance when it arrived. He definitely would need plastic surgery but none of the pellets had enough mass to penetrate even a couple inches of flesh let alone any bone.

FRJ
January 6, 2010, 07:11 PM
If it stops the bad guy from doing what he was attempting I'm a happy man. No need to kill just a need to stop the BG right now. I think #8's will do it with no harm to my neighbors and if it doesn't then I'll accept the consequences. Better I die defending myself than my neighbor die and I live to face the consequences. FRJ

Bartholomew Roberts
January 6, 2010, 07:46 PM
No need to kill just a need to stop the BG right now.

All firearms are considered lethal force legally and have the potential to kill someone.

And besides that is kind of the dilemma... if you don't interrupt the circulatory system or the nervous system significantly, the body is still physically capable of attacking. At this point, it is the attacker's choice whether to fight, flee, stand like deer in the headlights, etc.

If you do the kind of damage where the attacker's body has no choice but to shut down, it stands a good chance of killing them.

And we haven't even gotten into the discussion of whether or not it is better (as far as stopping without killing) to shoot someone multiple times with a less penetrating round or shoot them less but with a round that penetrates deeper. Considering that each of those extra rounds represents:

A) Time that the fight is prolonged
B) Potential to miss and get a free ticket in the liability lotto

It seems there is a good argument for stopping the fight in as few rounds as possible.

Shadow Man
January 6, 2010, 07:52 PM
It seems there is a good argument for stopping the fight in as few rounds as possible.

Once upon a time I was taught how to win "hearts and minds." Two in the chest, one in the head. That was later improved upon as my training increased, but it is not a bad plan for an up-close attacker.

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