C93 Range Report, we got problems


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AZAviator
January 3, 2010, 11:34 PM
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1056/misfire1.jpg

Yes this is from a new gun, its called the C93 Sporter from Century Arms. Yes I know Century Arms is known for some faulty products. I have owned CAI products before and never had problems.

Detail: Today I figured Id go out and put some rounds through my new C93 I bought myself for christmas. About 4 out of the first 10 rounds were fail to eject, mixed with fail to load (as the bolt was getting stuck on the new round crunching it into the side of the receiver and mangling the shell casing). The next 50 rounds were hit and miss with the last 100 going alot smoother (I was making it through full 10 rounds with occasionally 1 FTE. Every FTE looked the same, split shell casing and mangled pretty bad where the casing necks down. Most of the FTE's would cause a fail to load but at the end it wasnt mangling the shell casing, just hanging up.

Ive never seen or delt with something like this before, but a guy at the range suggested trying steel cased surplus .223 - he loaned me 10 rounds and I never had a misfire, although I did have a double fire LOL

The steel casings were still getting some of the scoring on the casing but they held up alot better (I also noticed the steel was getting thrown further away and always in the same direction, as opposed to the brass casings getting thrown every which way, sometimes just falling out)

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/5094/c93b.jpg

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/4516/misfire2.jpg

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/6671/misfire3.jpg

So is this a matter of breaking in, bad ammo, or junk gun.

Video Update: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf-Vyqqgig4

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highorder
January 3, 2010, 11:42 PM
Did you clean and lube the rifle before you fired it?

Fremmer
January 3, 2010, 11:44 PM
Good grief, I've never seen cases so mangled like that before.

The lines along the cases are interesting. The cases are obviously getting mashed up worse than the Broncos' defense, and I wonder whether they are getting simply getting smashed inside the receiver (or possibly not being fully extracted before being mashed and extracted), or could there be a problem with the chamber dimensions?

Sorry about your problems with the new gun, I hope that you can send it back to Century. I sure would!

RockyMtnTactical
January 3, 2010, 11:46 PM
Wow, that is some mangled brass!!

Avenger29
January 3, 2010, 11:48 PM
The lines along the cases are interesting.

This is an HK type rifle with a fluted chamber, so it makes those long longitudinal lines that look weird. I don't know much about the mangling of the rest of the case,

AZAviator
January 3, 2010, 11:59 PM
Yeah thats what I gathered as well, the chamber is fluted like that. What Im wondering = is that normal for casings to get scored inside the chamber or is something wrong. The guy at the range (same one who gave me the steel .223) thought it could be the recoil spring slamming the round home too hard, but I dont see why this would cause some a malfunction as this. Its as if the round is getting sliced to shreds everytime.

To answer the question, I cleaned and oiled the C93 very well before the fire. It was arguably wet with gun oil, as I know .223's like it that way.

rizbunk77
January 4, 2010, 12:10 AM
Something is definitely extemely wrong looks like to me. I wouldn't fire it again until the chamber and throat are cast to check for dimension.

briansmithwins
January 4, 2010, 12:13 AM
I'm not an HK expert but I'm suspecting that you have two problems:

The rifle is 'unlocking' (bolt moving) early. The brass looks stretched near the head which is usually a sign of excess head space. The unsupported brass then blows out into the flutes of the chamber.

The collapsed cases look like they're getting rammed into something: either the trunnion or the side of the ejection port. Could be linked to the early bolt movement.

Can you measure the bolt gap? Do you have headspace gages? What size rollers are in the bolt head?

I wouldn't be shooting that rifle anymore until it's fixed. You're playing with 50k psi gas inches from your face. I think the steel was better as the steel is just stronger than brass. BSW

AZAviator
January 4, 2010, 12:33 AM
As a matter of fact I did do a bolt gap measurment, as Id heard rumors and horror stories of these coming with out of spec bolts. The bolt gap is nothing, I used a set of feeler gauges and couldnt find any gap between the carrier and the bolt when depressed (rollers locked). As for the rollers, they are whatever came with it, not sure what size.

Im not going to waste any time with this rifle, AimSurplus is getting a call tomorrow. Im disappointed - my first bad gun buy.

briansmithwins
January 4, 2010, 12:51 AM
As I recall no bolt gap is BAD on HK roller locked weapons. I think it can be adjusted by swapping rollers.

OTOH, I'd send it back if it was mine too.

BSW

NetJunkie
January 4, 2010, 01:34 AM
Yes, no bolt gap is very bad. Call AIM. If you want another check Henderson Defense. They test fire all of their C93s before shipping.

R.W.Dale
January 4, 2010, 01:42 AM
What? 11 replies and nobody has said "drunken monkeys"


You guys are letting your game slip

W.E.G.
January 4, 2010, 01:49 AM
Wow.

Just wow.

Another Century nightmare gun.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/humor/noangrybeavers.jpg

atblis
January 4, 2010, 02:00 AM
IIRC, HK roller delayed blow back or whatever its called don't behave well with underpowered ammo. What was the brass cased ammo you were shooting?

WoofersInc
January 4, 2010, 02:32 AM
Yes, no bolt gap is very bad. Call AIM. If you want another check Henderson Defense. They test fire all of their C93s before shipping.

Give Henderson Defense a call. The guys over there are really knowledgable and always willing to help out. They are regular posters over on AR15.com in the Nevada Hometown forum.
I would also try posting the photos you have over on HKPro.com. Someone there should have a definite idea of what is going on.

millertyme
January 4, 2010, 02:39 PM
I almost bought one of those. HOpefully everything works out for you on that.

AZAviator
January 4, 2010, 10:33 PM
Here's my video review on the weapon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf-Vyqqgig4

AIM Surplus offered a full refund if I send it back to them.

Kurt_D
January 4, 2010, 11:27 PM
USA ammo? Are those reloads? That could be a source of the problems, crappy brass. Mil spec brass cases and steel cases usually deform less in my PTR-91.

0 bolt gap I think equals excessive headspace in this system. Like someone else pointed out the brass maybe stretching due to head space and blowing out around the flutes.

The fluting could be cut too deep, I mean I've never seen a case butterfly open like that and not kaboom.

Or it could be all 3. Dang, if you were shooting steel case you'd never known about this potential kaboom until it went. I'll never buy a CAI built gun and will look real hard at their imports.

jobu07
January 5, 2010, 12:01 AM
USA ammo? Are those reloads? That could be a source of the problems, crappy brass. Mil spec brass cases and steel cases usually deform less in my PTR-91.

That's what I was thinking. I seem to recall hearing never run commercial (hunting?) ammo through a CETME because the brass was too soft to handle the extraction. Case head seperations and such. I wonder if the USA brass is having some form of similar reaction in the C93 - but smashing the neck instead of seperating?

AZAviator
January 5, 2010, 01:32 AM
These are not reloaded, they are sold by the box of 50, new condition 55 grain (as in never used). I got the word from the lady working at USA Ammo, this is the same ammo the US Government buys out, which is why they are not always selling to the public (She said when the government starts making their big buys, they cut back on public sale because the gov takes everything) That being said, I also agree the brass casing is more likely to deform under great pressure, but to explode like that?? The steel casings were also getting roughed up - I really think something is wrong with the weapon.

armoredman
January 5, 2010, 03:30 AM
After my debacle with my CETME, I swore I would never buy another Century made product. Good luck.

Kurt_D
January 5, 2010, 12:57 PM
I did a little quick search for this USA ammo. They sell 3 55gr flavors: two that use once fired brass (read: reloads) and one that uses new Lake City brass. I have no doubt they would have trouble getting new LC brass at times because LC is running at capacity. Either way they roll their own and sell it; not that there's anything wrong with that.

They're using LC brass with their new stuff and probably a mix of LC and WCC in their once fired. That's usually pretty good brass. I think it's a gun issue too, just WOW. I'd keep those cases and post pictures the next time someone ask how hard the HK system is on brass :D

hk lover
January 5, 2010, 01:05 PM
My G-3 has never been able to shoot brass.I changed the rollers and locking piece,but it still ripped brass into.I am now reserved to steel case only,but have never had a problem since switching.good luck with your new toy

MachIVshooter
January 5, 2010, 02:19 PM
Looks like the flutes may be cut deeper and/or the chamber is too big toward the front. My G-3, like all of them, leaves pretty good striations in the case that make reloading pretty much impossible. But I've never seen the kind of brass destruction you've got going on.

Also, I have always been under the impression that steel cased ammo was a no-no in HK rifles specifically because of the fluting???

rfurtkamp
January 5, 2010, 02:26 PM
Firing suppressed out of my Vector 51 (with more backchamber pressure than any stock system) I've never seen brass that mangled.

Even the mighty 51 only scores cases with flute marks, I've never seen the folk art case effect on a HK before.

Gordon
January 5, 2010, 05:07 PM
Had an HK 91 since 1979 and a HK93 since 83. They have digested a LIFE TIME OF LOADS AND NEITHER EVER FAILED! They are stashed in Oregon since 2000 just incase I get driven out of Calif.
Looks to me like the flutes in the chamber are out of spec to begin with, much deeper than on my "real" HK 93. They don't use a "real" HK barrel do they?

nwilliams
January 5, 2010, 06:58 PM
Simple solution.

Send it back for repairs.

I had a C93 and put several thousand rounds through it before deciding to sell it. The only issues I had with mine was that it refused to cycle Wolf Military Classic, every other ammo I tried worked fine.

AZAviator
January 6, 2010, 02:11 AM
No they are not real H&K barrels, made in the USA somewhere (probably CAI contract work). As for the C93, Im just going to get a refund. I need the money right now anyway and I dont feel like fing around with this gun anylonger. In the future I may decide to buy another one but it wont be from AIM.

highorder
January 6, 2010, 03:04 AM
So you'll buy another crapshoot rifle from a known poor quality manufacturer, but you won't buy from a very reputable and highly regarded distributor?

Mp7
January 6, 2010, 09:48 AM
i wouldnt buy 1911s from HK ...
... and i wouldnt buy HK from a generic builder.

scary.

navyretired 1
January 6, 2010, 11:07 AM
That isn't a Cetme, Its a Hk93 or the I forget 5.56 military model of HK93. The Cetme was/is .762X51 only. It also has Naval style lower/trigger group.
This looks like a gun firing out of battery or failed roller locks.

AZAviator
January 6, 2010, 11:23 PM
So you'll buy another crapshoot rifle from a known poor quality manufacturer, but you won't buy from a very reputable and highly regarded distributor?

How could you construe something so badly? I am refering to AIM's policy when it comes to pre-firing weapons before shipping, in other words they dont. Ive bought several firearms from AIM and love them, but this time they sold me a bum rifle. Try watching my video review next time and you'd understand.

highorder
January 6, 2010, 11:45 PM
Just watched your video.

I am refering to AIM's policy when it comes to pre-firing weapons before shipping, in other words they dont.

With all due respect, that's ridiculous.

Which of AIM's competitors test fire every firearm, surplus or otherwise that comes through their doors? None? Manufacturers are responsible for things like that, and you opted to buy from a manufacturer with known quality problems.

AIM Surplus offered a full refund if I send it back to them.

That should satisfy you.

I do feel for you getting bad product, but place blame where it belongs, not the last hand it touched.

AZAviator
January 7, 2010, 03:05 PM
Bah, thats like saying its not the parents fault the kid is an F up. There is a reason why technology based industries use a system of checks and balances, such as Microsoft, Boeing, right down to the pilot before takeoff. Im not saying everyone other than AIM does this, nor should it be that way. But when your selling a weapon from a manufacturer (CAI) that has had documented issues in the past with quality control you might want to go the extra step.

Besides the point, I am still very pleased with AIM Surplus. They have offered a full refund and I cannot ask for anything more - AIM is not a bad company, they just wont be my CAI dealer in the future.

nalioth
January 7, 2010, 03:18 PM
Can you measure the bolt gap? Do you have headspace gages? What size rollers are in the bolt head? That makes no difference in a Century built gun. They grind the parts to artificially provide an adequate bolt gap, when in fact, the ground parts make for a defective rifle.

To the OP: Send it back for a replacement, and hope you get one that is nearer to what it's supposed to be. Better yet, get a refund.

Edited to add: You do not "headspace" a roller locked rifle with traditional headspace gauges. They do not headspace in the traditional sense.

highorder
January 7, 2010, 03:26 PM
I mean you no disrespect, honestly! I just don't understand your thought process.
Im not saying everyone other than AIM does this, nor should it be that way. But when your selling a weapon from a manufacturer (CAI) that has had documented issues in the past with quality control you might want to go the extra step.

No distributor spends the time and money to test fire weapons, and you ARE suggesting it should be that way.

What makes good business sense and what you think they "might want to do" are different. I'm glad your not bashing AIM, but you simply cannot hold them responsible for the quality of a product they DID NOT manufacture.
AIM is not a bad company, they just wont be my CAI dealer in the future."

That is illogical.
What you should tell yourself is, "I probably should be cautious about buying a CAI product in the future.

All that aside, I was really hoping to see a positive review of these! I was considering buying one, even with the CAI history. It only confirmed my fears to see you had problems with yours. Assuming you take the refund, do you have your eye on anything similar?

nalioth
January 7, 2010, 04:01 PM
All that aside, I was really hoping to see a positive review of these! I was considering buying one, even with the CAI history. It only confirmed my fears to see you had problems with yours. Assuming you take the refund, do you have your eye on anything similar? This is not the only issue reported on these C93s. I've seen others on other forums, as well.

The sad part is: After Century gets done with the parts, you can't even recycle them and rebuild the rifle properly (as they've ground critical areas on the existing parts).

AZAviator
January 7, 2010, 04:28 PM
Valid argument highorder, but there is a dealer who test fires all the CAI weapons that come through their door (the link is posted somewhere in this thread, earlier on). Furthermore they match the AIM Surplus price. Thats end of story as far as Im concerned.

I am not going to buy anyother rifle right away, I think I may wait awhile and save for something else.

YaNi
January 7, 2010, 04:44 PM
There is something very wrong with that gun.

This is what brass my out of a fluted HK 91 chamber looks like.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_G8zxsY0ZSyY/S0ZHXWFsDAI/AAAAAAAAAow/_Rwnm9_LG3w/s1024/DSCF2447.JPG

Note the case is smooth; the lines are from the powder/carbon residue. About 25% of the time there will be a small tear at the end of the case. It has a very violent/positive extraction and the cases usually fly a good 20' (far enough that you can fire a round and turn around and see the case landing).

highorder
January 7, 2010, 05:26 PM
For sake of anyone who reads that thread later for information:

EDITED:
Most dealers do not test fire weapons prior to sale, expect the occasional issue that reputable sellers will correct or refund.

but there is a dealer who test fires all the CAI weapons that come through their door (the link is posted somewhere in this thread, earlier on).

EDIT: Henderson Defense DOES claim to test fire every C93 they ship. (http://shop.hendersondefense.biz/product.sc?productId=236&categoryId=20)
It's the only weapon they sell that comes with this claim, perhaps due to the quality of these builds.

A browse around the web shows quite a few people that got good C93's from various dealers... I still kinda want one, but I'll repress the desire and buy ammo instead. :)

RobMoore
February 3, 2010, 05:16 PM
^ From their website

We will not accept returns because of bolt gap concerns.

briansmithwins
February 3, 2010, 06:02 PM
We will not accept returns because of bolt gap concerns.

Who won't accept returns?

BSW

RobMoore
February 3, 2010, 06:12 PM
Try the post right above mine that I was pointing to.

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