Convert an 870 or 500 to mag feed?


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TCB in TN
January 4, 2010, 12:35 AM
Maybe my search foo is off, but I didn't see anything on this so here goes.

Over the years I have seen a number of inventive folks convert box mag bolt rifles to accept detachable mags. I wondered about the problems/pitfalls that would be around doing the same for a 870 or a mossy500 with Saiga 12ga mags. I have an appreciation for the Saiga 12 ga, but am a pump gun guy, and really a Mossberg guy at that, but still like the idea of a mag fed shotgun for home defense. Anyone ever think of this? Try it out? Or am I just completely off base anyway? Just popped into my head and thought I would throw it out.

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Xzyl
January 4, 2010, 12:40 AM
http://www.adjunct.diodon349.com/Attack_on_USA/shotgun_magazines_bandoliers_and_shell_holders.htm

No idea how well it works.

TCB in TN
January 4, 2010, 12:43 AM
Wow that is sexy! I was thinking about modding the "mag well", but that would certainly look to be an easier, less permanent solution. I wonder how well they work, and do they mess up the "balance" any?

AcceptableUserName
January 4, 2010, 01:49 AM
you're messing with the way the weapon was designed to be used. this would be an ESPECIALLY bad idea for home defense. if you want a mag fed weapon, buy a mag fed weapon. reliability and simplicity trumps everything.

BushyGuy
January 4, 2010, 01:58 AM
simply add on magazine extension under barrel. it would work just as good as a clip on magazine. I think a shotgun with an AR looking magazine on it dont look rite to me, shotgun looks more intimidating wiht the magazine extention at the end of the barrel that hold the shells, make it as long as your barrel :cool:

Jack2427
January 4, 2010, 10:02 AM
I am a tactical/military shotgun collector/accumulator/junkie. Mainly because when I was a kid they were the cheapest guns to collect. Got lots of em now.
I tried the Sidwinder on a 500 I had laying around. The conversion was straightforward, the use was not. IMO there are too many variables to rely on in this system, it usually works, but the mags are expensive, and the drum is tempremental. The biggest beef I have is that the gun is permanently modified, there is no easy way to go back to the regular mag. I will keep it converted just for the collection. I will NOT rely on it for much of anything other than a novelty. You can get 10 rounds sure, but my stock 590A1 has 9and it always works and it can be reloaded many times, the Sidewinder system puts you out of action as soon as your box mags/drum is empty, reloading them is a real pain, and you have a single shot weapon till you do.

Fred Fuller
January 4, 2010, 10:43 AM
Shotgun guru Louis Awerbuck says, "No magazine is ever big enough."

Shotgun guru Clint Smith says, "Learn to run the gun you got."

I can't improve on that one bit. There are no box magazine conversions for pump guns that have ever worked well enough to be fully commercialized. If they worked, you could just go out and buy one. That you cannot, tells you all you need to know about them.

If you want a box magazine shotgun, the marketplace offers you a fully workable option in the Saiga. Get it while you can, is the best advice I can offer. It really is a capable system, it's reliable and affordable compared to trying to modify a pumpgun. http://www.classicarms.us/ has 'em for $499.95 right now...

jmho, ymmv.

lpl

AcceptableUserName
January 4, 2010, 12:39 PM
as far as what Jack said about being temperamental, I can see this. That's kinda what I intimated in the first post. Any time you introduce another variable onto the original weapon, you add another aspect that can hang up/malfunction. Same goes for shell holders, optics, sling set ups, lights etc. However, those usually don't interfere with the function of the weapon to the potential degree that this would.


The pump shotgun's a proven design, that's why you haven't seen a lot of changes to it in the past century/half century. Somebody in another thread mentioned Steve Mcqueen using the High Standard riot gun in a movie in the early 70's and I'm sure plenty of LE had those guns, (as well as Ithaca 37's and Winchester 12's) in their possession at the time. Well, I feel that that particular gun's dimensions, 18.5" or 18" barrel, 7 or 8 shot capcity, are still the gold standard for total performance in a pump shotgun. Pointable, simple and reliable design. Same goes for the full tube Win 1300. Everything that would normally arise in a life threatening situation could probably be managed with it. I'm talking COMBAT, let alone home defense. It's all been tested and what's recommended and used now is more than tried and true. There's probably more tradition in today's shotgun offerings for defense than there is in autoloading pistols and semi automatic rifles.

You hear a LOT more about handgun and rifle innovations than you do in a shotgun because they're already so proven and reliable. There's no glaring issue there to question or upgrade except for what's perceived by people who THINK they'll need more than they do. Really, the AA12 is as far out there as you'll ever get with a smoothbore and even that designs been around since the late 70's as far as I know, and in my opinion far exceeds the need it was created for.


Take Dave's advice and snap up a Saiga if you want a box fed weapon. However, even if I had a Saiga in my position, it would not be my choice by any means for home defense. It's overkill, plain and simple. It's an out and out combat weapon and make no mistake about it's best used for multiple high tension engagement or range fun. At home, if my life is on the line, I'd rather have the simple 1-2-3 - Rack, point and lead-send. Problem solved. :D

trickyasafox
January 4, 2010, 04:54 PM
those saiga shotguns run pretty well with quality mags available. I know they have ak to pump conversions, so if you wanted you could still have a pump action mag fed shotgun

TCB in TN
January 4, 2010, 07:59 PM
The pump shotgun's a proven design, that's why you haven't seen a lot of changes to it in the past century/half century. Somebody in another thread mentioned Steve Mcqueen using the High Standard riot gun in a movie in the early 70's and I'm sure plenty of LE had those guns, (as well as Ithaca 37's and Winchester 12's) in their possession at the time. Well, I feel that that particular gun's dimensions, 18.5" or 18" barrel, 7 or 8 shot capcity, are still the gold standard for total performance in a pump shotgun. Pointable, simple and reliable design. Same goes for the full tube Win 1300. Everything that would normally arise in a life threatening situation could probably be managed with it. I'm talking COMBAT, let alone home defense. It's all been tested and what's recommended and used now is more than tried and true. There's probably more tradition in today's shotgun offerings for defense than there is in autoloading pistols and semi automatic rifles.


Oh I KNOW the pump gun is a proven design, I am a big pump gun guy. I own several, and while I have a couple of SAs, my go to guns are and have always been pumps, have a pistol gripped 18 1/2 mossy 500 by my nightstand, for the very reasons you describe, and I agree that is a big part of why you haven't seen as much innovation. They just work.

IMHO the next reason that you haven't seen so much innovation is cost. The average person isn't so worried about putting $1000+ into a home defense shotty when you can get a very good gun, proven pump gun, right out of the box in the $200-300 range. Of course if you could put out a magfed gun or similar quality/reliability for not to much more money (such as a magfed 500 or 870 conversion) then you might see people looking to add something else to the safe.

I have had several AKs, and honestly like them pretty well. Have run a few rounds through Saiga 12s and like them just fine, and I have thought about buying one on several occasions. BUT honestly my thoughts here are not so much that I am determined to do it, rather than just the interest in the possibility and mechanics behind what it would take to do it. Thought the mag fed Ruger scout rifle idea was great, and was just curios about whether anyone had tried a similar thing with a solid pump.

TheFallGuy
January 6, 2010, 02:47 AM
there is at least one place that sells .410 AR uppers...

GoodKat
January 6, 2010, 02:50 AM
If you want a mag fed shotgun, get a SAIGA.

AcceptableUserName
January 6, 2010, 04:48 AM
The main thing I know of is the Knoxx Sidewinder kit, which runs about 4-600 secondhand these days. I've never shot one, but I imagine to these hands it'd feel pretty herky jerky. I'd go with a Saiga all the way.

bullturkey
January 6, 2010, 05:20 AM
If someone breaks into my home it will be a combat situation. Their life versus mine and I want every advantage I can get. Can you short stroke an 870? Yes but not a tuned Saiga 12. I traded my 870 for an S12 did the break in and is as reliable as anything out there. Multiple shots/hits

AcceptableUserName
January 6, 2010, 10:21 AM
there's a warrior in every thread lol

zhyla
January 6, 2010, 01:52 PM
I think a conversion would be difficult. The loading doohickey (sorry, I'm not up on shotgun internals) is in the way, there's no loading ramp on the breach, well that's what comes to mind. I don't think it would be difficult to build a mag-fed pump gun but the Saiga appears to be reliable enough that you can just buy one of those.

bullturkey
January 6, 2010, 06:56 PM
Thinking about getting the new Centurion buck and ball. Will you be available for testing this weekend?

TCB in TN
January 6, 2010, 11:18 PM
Again I like the Saiga fine, but its not my favorite. I am much more a fan of the M500/R870 look and feel. The loading gate on the shotgun can easily be removed. and I think a feed ramp could be integrated into whatever you need to build to hold the mag in place. Of course I haven't even taken any of the existing 12ga mags to look at them and see if it would be doable with either of the current options, but I don't believe it would be that difficult to get a workable solution. I don't plan on "betting the farm" on making this work but I would like to see it tried.

I have a couple of friends who are decent machinists, and so I may just trade for me an old beater mossy to use to play with. Which Saiga mags are the most reliable?

rustycrusty
January 8, 2010, 11:30 AM
Why permanently modify a shotgun to hold 10 rounds and have iffy feed and function when you can just screw on a mag extender that can be removed when going hunting and have proven performance? My 870 works just fine and I've never shortstroked it. Ain't saying I never will, since I've only owned the 870 for 38 years, so I may one day. If you want more rounds you can also use the 2" 00 buck loads available, with a 5 rnd ext and 2" shells you would have 15 rds. Now you are getting into wonder 9 capacity. Just my 2
dongs worth.

dak0ta
January 8, 2010, 01:49 PM
Type in "Dominion Arm Grizzly Mag Fed Shotgun". It's available in canada and is pretty durable. It is an 870 clone made in china.. i think the same company as the Hawk shotguns.

AcceptableUserName
January 8, 2010, 01:59 PM
Dak0ta, isn't that also called a Brolin Arms?


I was going to mention it but couldn't quite rememebr the name. The canadians seem to like them, plus they get the really short ones. Go figure.

mgregg85
January 8, 2010, 02:20 PM
Yeah looks like the Knoxx would be about your best bet. Do they even make the sidewinder anymore?

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