[wlewisiii]

Ok, first post here. I am just getting started in reloading as my recent purchase of a Taurus 650 snubby has finally busted my ammo budget. While it's .357 capable, I prefer to shoot .38 Special/.38 Special +P instead. I've searched the site but not found quite the information I'm looking for.

I'd like to standardize on one powder to start with. I'm looking to have two loads - one lighter load for plinking/practice and one as my carry load. Both would be lead 158gr bullets: LRN for the light load & LSWCHP FBI load clone. Is there a single powder I can easily use for both purposes?

Load info greatly appreciated as well.

Thanks,

William

[Walkalong]

You will really need two different powders for .38 Spl & .357. They operate at much different pressures.

W-231 will work great for .38 Spl, and for light to medium loads in .357.

Unique will work OK in .38 Spl, and push the .357 pretty well, but noe max.

Any powder for use in both calibers will be a compromise on one, the other, or both.

Welcome to THR.

[Clarence]

Looking for one powder to produce the best results for light loads and max loads is difficult. For the best results you need a fast burning powder for light loads and a slower burning powder for heavy loads. If you attempt to load slow-burning powder down for light loads you will experience unburned powder and a dirty gun. If you attempt to load fast burning powder for your maximum loads you will get less velocity than can be achieved with slower burning powders.

However, since you are loading for a snubby you should probably be looking for something on the faster side anyway as you won't be able to completely burn heavier charges of slower powders in that short barrel.

I would suggest buying 1 lb of a faster powder and 1 lb of a slower powder. You should be able to get over 1500 rds out of each pound of powder.

2.7 Gr of Bullseye with a 148gr wadcutter is the best plinking load in the .38 Special I have ever used and I've never had a need to load the .38 Special "up" for a SD load so I don't really have a recommendation for you. I just carry Federal Hydrashocks in my 642 BUG rather than worrying about loading for it.

[Landric]

I've had excellent luck with HS-6 in .38 Special of +P level loads. For plinkers I prefer Trail Boss. HS-6 works pretty well for magnum loads also, but my preference for magnums is 2400.

Its hard to find one powder that does everything.

[jfh]

It's become my go-to powder for 38 Special. My first testing of it (in 2"-3" barrels) showed a 1.0-gr. wide 'sweet spot', for heaven's sakes. Since then I have loaded it up into 38-CIP pressures, and it produces the best velocity I have in 2" barrels for 158-gr. loads.

Meanwhile, you can load it on up in 357 Magnum as well. Ramshot's latest manual lists recipes for both cartridges. I have not yet developed a firm opinion about it as a 357-case powder, but it has not disappointed me, either.

Jim H.

[oneounceload]

I have had good luck over the years, in MY guns, with Unique, Bullseye and Universal Clays. It is nice that both Unique and Universal also work well in my 9mm, my 20 gauges and my 28 gauges

[Radaray]

First off, welcome to the post. Now I'm going to give you some information that will vary from that already stated. I think your Taurus is a 605, not a 650, as I have one too, and load it extensively for .38 Spl. both for practice, and more serious endeavors. There is one powder that I have used for both applications for many years, and find it superior to most of the newer powders for this caliber. It is SR4756. It is not touchy about load density and can be used in .357 Magnum cases as well.
The old Speer # 8 loading manual has this to say about SR4756 and the .38 Spl. cartridge: "Dupont' SR4756 is listed only as a shotshell powder in the more powerful loadings, but it has proven to be an excellent propellant for heavy loads in handgun cartridges. One of the best for maximum .38 Special loads." The loads I'm going to give you are above SAMMI specification of today, but have never produced any indications of excessive pressure in my Taurus model 605. BTW, the Speer #8 manual listed a maximum load of SR4756 under a 158 gr. SWC cast bullet at 11.0 grains. My loads are no where near that, but I have safely loaded that charge in my S&W model 28. The loads I will give you here are safe in my 605, and I believe will work for your needs, as well.
For low velocity practice loads using Laser Cast 158gr. cast bullets with CCI-500 primers, you can load 4.4 grains of SR4756. I never load this very often, as it is a very light load. Speer #12 says it will clock in at 862fps out of a 6" barrel. I've never fired this load over my Chrony, but know it is very slow albeit accurate out of my 2" 605. This is the starting load in the Speer # 12, and the maximum they show is 4.8 grains.
The +P load is 7.0 grains of SR4756 using the same Laser Cast bullet and CCI primer. This gives an average velocity of 1055 fps out kof my 605. It produces an average deviation of 13, and a standard deviation of 20.7. It groups very well at 15 yards, produces a sharp recoil, but has no extraction problems, and the primers are only slightly flattened. You may chose to work this load up slowly starting with the above lower charge until you get what you are after. I've used this powder for over 30 years, and have see no significant change over the years in its performance. If you're interested, I also have loads using it in .357 cases, as well.

[GP100man]

CLAYS 2.5 grs under a 158 swc 7000 grs per lb. you do the math.

[jfh]

I'm going to contradict your advice to consider SR-4756--at least for a novice reloader. The main issues really are 1. the (likely) pressures generated by this powder, and
2. Wide ES swings in chrono testing which show (likely) powder postition issues. We've had some commentary in other posts about the Speer #8 loads, and more recently, the current load recommendations by Hodgdon. I also followed closely the S&W forum discussions and contributed my own part to them. Rather than inserting my comments yet another time, you can simply read my comments on the Speer SR-4756 loads here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6064971&postcount=9). Here's a summary statement from that post / link: about pressure: [for their 38 Special loads] Hodgdon's 5.5-gr max is at 17,900 PSI with a 158-gr. XTP, LOA 1.455." For their 357 Magnum 4756 loads, they show a 6.5 gr max at 27,600 PSI with a 158-gr "MEI CASET LSWC .357" LOA 1.620.

And, the reason I provide it is because of your comment that "....The (Speer 12) +P load is 7.0 grains of SR4756 using the same Laser Cast bullet and CCI primer.

SR-4756 is an 'interesting powder' for 38/357 load-building, I guess, but there are much more superior powders available. IMO.

Jim H.

[wlewisiii]

Thank you for the information, folks. I realize it's difficult to get one powder to do all, I'm exporing the compromises right now. It may be that I'll go differently in the end, but for simplicty & cost I'd prefer to be able to use one powder for all of my loading.

Also, I do only intend to load .38 Special at this point in time. When I add .357 Magnum to the mix, then it will probably require a different powder.

jfh, I'm going to need to look carefully at that True Blue, it sounds like what I might be looking for.

Radaray, it's a Taurus 650 in Stainless Steel. Says so right on the frame.

William

[Walkalong]

SR-4756 becomes feasible and very interesting after the point it fills around 80% of the empty space under the bullet.

As jfh alluded to, it suffers from being very position sensitive until around that point of filling 80% or so of the empty space.

I do not recommend it for the beginner either.

I do agree True Blue would be a good compromise powder for you, leaning towards the top .38 Spl loadings & upper, but not max, .357 loads.

A somewhat faster powder would be better if you want to load light .38 Spl stuff.

Throw a couple of scenarios at us, and let us take a stab at suggesting a powder or two for them. ie....38 125 gr at 900 FPS.. or ..158 .357 at 1000 FPS, etc.

What bullet weights and power levels do you want to load to?

[soloban]

I like 4.2grs of IMR 700X with a 125gr Hornady XTP seated to the cannulure. Nice, clean, accurate. Same powder and bullet work fine a .357 Magnum with a SP Magnum primer.

[parisite]

Powder is the cheapest component in reloading. Getting 2 or 3 different ones makes it that much more fun. Don't limit yourself.

If I was going to compromise however, I really like Green Dot, Power Pistol, and Universal.

[floydster]

You can read all the posts till u r blue in the face, one powder that will beat them all for 38 Spl. is.

Trail Boss can't be beat

Smokeyloads:)

[Jim Watson]

I have loaded .38 Special with W231 for everything from midrange wadcutters to +P semiwadcutters.
No complaints but it has only been about 35 years.

[floydster]

There are new powders on the block, and Trail Boss is one of them.
Smokeyloads

[Redneck with a 40]

Unique and Universal.

[wlewisiii]

Walkabout, I'm mostly interested in a couple of basic loads - one lighter for lots of shooting & one heavier for CC/SD/HD use. I'd like to put enough rounds downrange this year to get to an acceptable level of competency and I'd like most of them to be the same rather than play the "what's the cheapest box of 50 at the gun shop this paycheck" game :) Towards this end, I'd like one powder to concentrate on so there is one fewer variable to consider.

As I suggested in my OP, a light load behind a 158 gr. LRN for practice & plinking as well as a FBI Load clone - a 158 gr. LSWCHP at high normal to +P levels.

William

[jfh]

you would do well to look at the discussion about cylinder / chamber cleaning found in http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=494891.

The issue is the crud ring buildup from shooting 38 Special cartridges in 357 Magnum cylinders.

Even as a novice reloader, you could learn to load a particular recipe you like in 38 cases--and quickly migrate to reloading 357-only cases.

Jim H.

[ilmonster]

Well, Hodgdon HP-38 as the name suggests was created for .38 spcl loads. I've loaded it for .38, .44 spcl and 9mm over the last few months (just got into metallic cartridge reloading after years of shotshell reloading) and am real happy with the results. Plenty of load data for HP-38 can be found on Hodgdon's web site.

[Walkalong]

As I suggested in my OP, a light load behind a 158 gr. LRN for practice & plinking as well as a FBI Load clone - a 158 gr. LSWCHP at high normal to +P levels.700X or W-231 will do that for you, although other powders could get you a few more FPS in the +P load. W-231 is a great powder for the beginner.

Since you will end up with more than one powder anyway, you might consider W-231 & Unique. Very versatile in future reloading as well.

The Unique will work well in .357 for you. It can't match AA#9 or W-296 for speed there, but it can do pretty well. It will give you about all the 158 Gr LSWC .38 Spl +P load will do as well.

The W-231 will make great light .38 Spl loads, as well as pretty decent +P .38 and medium power .357 with the lighter bullets.

[zxcvbob]

I'm looking to have two loads - one lighter load for plinking/practice and one as my carry load. Both would be lead 158gr bullets: LRN for the light load & LSWCHP FBI load clone. Is there a single powder I can easily use for both purposes?
Bullseye. It's the only powder I know that will do a good job of both. Second choice is American Select, but it's hard to find load data for that one.

[The Bushmaster]

WW-231 (.38 Spec and low end .357 mag) and WW-296 (hot .357 mag) or 2400 (moderate .357 mag).

[lgbloader]

Unique, bullseye, Trailboss, W231, Clays all have worked well for me.

LGB

[jibjab]

Is there a single powder I can easily use for both purposes?
Alliant's Bullseye would be my first choice :) it's great for 38spl and behaves well at higher pressures, and it works very well with lead bullets.

[jibjab]

My second choice would be AA#5 for warmer loaded .38spl and mid range .357 mag with LSWCHP. good luck and be safe.

[ArchAngelCD]

If you're looking for only 1 powder for both standard and +P pressure .38 Special rounds using a lead bullet I would have to choose W231/HP-38. If you're willing to use 2 powders I would use W231 for plinking/target loads and HS-6 for the "FBI Load".

I don't care for Unique because it's VERY dirty when loaded light. It needs higher pressures to clean up. Universal will do a better job than Unique over a wider pressure range. I wouldn't try to light load HS-6 either because it will leave a lot of unburnt powder at lower pressures. AA#5 was mentioned above, that will do a good job because it can be loaded on the light side without too much unburnt powder and additional "dirt". BUT, IMO W231 is still the best choice because it's so good at light loads yet still generated good velocity without excessive pressures in the +P rounds. It's a clean accurate powder that's fairly low flash too.

[zxcvbob]

If you're willing to use 2 powders I would use W231 for plinking/target loads and HS-6 for the "FBI Load".I agree with this. (More below)
If you're looking for only 1 powder for both standard and +P pressure .38 Special rounds using a lead bullet I would have to choose W231/HP-38.
Not a bad choice, but I'll still disagree :) Bullseye outperforms 231 at the upper end without getting squirrely. You get quite a bit higher velocities at the same pressure, and that will be important for the "FBI load", especially from a snubbie. It also works well at the low end, but it burns dirtier at low pressures than most other fast powders. With cast bullets that won't matter much because the bullet lube will burn dirty no matter.

[Radaray]

Yes, I knew full well that I would get some flak with the loads using SR4756, as there has been more than a little speculation over the chacteristics over this old, and time proven powder. Before I launch into any defense of this, or any other powder, let me set something straight here. I did not state that the Speer #12 maximum load was 7.0 grains. Their max load was given as 4.8grs. The 7.0 grain load is MY load, not Speers.

When the Speer #9 manual came out, there was a great reduction in a lot of charges that were previously given by Speer, besides just SR4756. I contacted Omark Industries about this, and their letter back (which I no longer have) indicated a variety of reasons for this, one of which was due to the lowering of SAMMI specs. This was done about the same time the industry was receiving increasingly bad press over various gun issues. Liability became a more pressing concern.

Another reason given was the advent of new and improved pressure measuring equipment. This "new" equipment revealed information that until this time was not known. I find it rather ironic that some sources still provide pressure readings in copper units of pressure (CUP) and others in PSI.

While they did not "condemn" any currently used powder, they recommended that handloaders follow information given in their latest manuals, and disregard data given in their older manuals. Keep in mind also, the long stated warning that they cannot control the condition of all firearms, especially older guns chambered for the .38 Special cartridge.

With that in mind, I conducted my own tests again with a new lot of SR4756 powder, and loaded them up to the limits I imposed upon myself many years ago. My new data ran very close to that that I had found before. My old Smith 28 still works like new, and the loads that I have given are safe in my 605, which BTW is chambered for .357 magnum. As stated before, I have not found this powder to be load density sensitive.

The original author was looking for a single powder that could be used in the .38 Spl. cartridge as a low velocity practice round as well as a service round. Most posts were telling him that it was either not possible, or at the very least, not practical. That is simply not true. Others mentioned Bullseye. I would rather introduce a new handloader to a medium burning rate powder, than a fast burning powder, as it is so easy to double (and even triple) load fast ones like Bullseye and others. And has been said, the handloader can load whatever he/she wishes~~~that is the beauty of handloading. But safety remains the responsibility of each handloader. The basic rule is to start low, and work up your loads slowly, looking for any signs that you might be getting goofy.

I respect all views and opinions here, and am merely expressing my own. As stated above, I knew this would ellicit some feed back, and that is good. I am now going to the Taurus web site to see what the heck a 650 snubbie is. :)

Radaray

[Walkalong]

As stated before, I have not found this powder to be load density sensitive.
My new batch is, under the conditions I stated.

I said:
SR-4756 becomes feasible and very interesting after the point it fills around 80% of the empty space under the bullet.................................it suffers from being very position sensitive until around that point of filling 80% or so of the empty space. If enough empty space is filled, it does fine, burns very clean, and is accurate. If it does not fill enough space, it is terribly position sensitive.

I tried one load with a 125 Gr JHP gave an Avg 1149 FPS with the powder back against the primer. One shot of that load with the powder forward against the bullet gave 678 FPS.

Another load with a plated 125 Gr bullet that gave an Avg 931 FPS with the powder back. With the powder forward, it stuck the first shot in the barrel.

[wlewisiii]

I think, at this point, based on the reading this thread has inspired, that I'll be looking for either the True Blue or the WW231 for a starting point. Should be enjoyable :)

Thanks all, for the information & inspiration.

Oh, Radaray, the 650 is an enclosed hammer DAO 2" snubby. Mine is stainless steel - 2nd owner but the first never shot it. Nice... :D

William

[jfh]

you really can't go wrong with 231, wleisiii. However, I have found that it is less useful as it moves up the recipe range. I stumbled into True Blue when I was looking for a slower powder.

Try both.

Jim H.

[hydraulicman]

Bullseye for plinking and power pistol for +P

[ArchAngelCD]

IMO Bullseye is way too fast a powder to use for .38 Special +P rounds.

[hydraulicman]

yeah bullseye is not a magnum powder.

[Galil5.56]

a 158 gr. LSWCHP at high normal to +P levels.


For me that means Unique and especially Power Pistol. My 3" Mod 60 will chronograph 850-900 fps with PP and a 158 grain LSWC when loaded to Alliant's +P data.

[RidgwayCO]

If you have one .357 Magnum revolver, then I suggest loading just .357 Magnum cases to avoid having to scrub out the cylinders after shooting .38 Specials in it. Plus you don't have to stock any .38 Special brass!

To get light but accurate loads in the .357 Magnum case, I highly recommend Trail Boss. It's very "fluffy" so you can easily see what you've put in each case (important in that tall case where small amounts of other powders can "get lost"), and you can't really overload it, which is an important point for a beginning reloader. For your "social work" loads, anything from Power Pistol to 2400 would be fine for me. I don't personally recommend 296/H110 for lead bullet loads because it doesn't download well, and needs a lot of pressure to burn efficiently, which may be an incompatible situation with the swaged lead bullets you intend to use.

The one big caution with Trail Boss is to never compress it (Don't Break The Doughnuts!). It's physical shape contributes to its burning characteristics, and breaking the doughnuts measurably increases its burning speed and therefore its pressure. Hodgdon has great published data for Trail Boss on their web site.

This is another situation where I wouldn't try to make one powder do everything, because it would most likely be only marginally efficient for both applications. Use Trail Boss for your light target loads, and the slower powder of your choice for your magnum loads.

[Maj Dad]

If I were told I had to get rid of all my pistol powders (about 10 of them, for 9x19, 38 spl, 357, 44 spl, 44 mag, 44-40, 45 acp, 45 LC) I would have to flip a coin between Bullseye & 231 and just suck up the loss of 357/44 mag capability (but fall back on a "rifle powder" for them: W296/WC 820 used in my M1 carbines :evil: ). I get excellent results with 296/820 with jacketed & plain base lead bullets in pistols and leading is a non-issue with hard cast bullets (also in the carbines but with gas checks).

[evan price]

My preferred single powder solution for .357 Mag and .38 spl uses a 158-grain cast lead (Wheel Weight alloy) SWC sized to .358":

.38 Special- 3.5 grains Titegroup- this is the mid-range data from the Hodgdon "Cowboy" load data, should be around 867 fps if you average their data and around 13.5K CUP.

.357 Magnum- 5.0 grains Titegroup- this is a max load from the "Cowboy" data, should be 1108 fps and under 25K CUP.

These are clean and very accurate, don't beat up the shooter or the gun, hit where aimed in a variety of revolvers, and do not lead up the barrel.

Titegroup is a great powder for target loads- inexpensive, reliable, and versatile. It won't get you true Magnum performance but it's great for target use.

[Offfhand]

The experienced shooters who know what they're doing use Bullseye for your proposed applications. Why say more?

[ArchAngelCD]

The experienced shooters who know what they're doing use Bullseye for your proposed applications. Why say more?
Why say more?
If that were true there would be only 1 powder. As we know there are dozens of good powders out there and all work well. I can think of a bunch of powders right now that will do a great job for the .38 Special, some better than Bullseye, some not.

[Jesse Heywood]

I have been using 231 and TiteGroup for 32-20, 38, 357 and 45 Colt. Both powders have done well in all.

If you decide to go with W231 try Hodgdon HP-38. Hodgdon manufactures W231 and says they two are the same. Usually 231 costs $5 more than HP-38. I buy whichever is available.

[Six]

I started loading 38/357/44 with Unique and Bullseye, and have pretty much switched to Trail Boss for all plinking/cowboy loads.

It's just so much easier to work with. Unlike Bullseye, any difference in charges is immediately apparent. I can load faster, and with more confidence.

For Magnum loads, I use Unique or 2400.

[jmortimer]

You can never go wrong with Unique.

[jibjab]

I've tried Trail Boss (TB) for .38spl and .357 mag. with 158gr lead bullets, nice soft shootin loads. For .357 mag TB won't do much better than .38spl velocities, and for accuracy TB is ok.

[Ky Larry]

AA#2 for .38spl light target loads.
AA#5 for .38spl/.357 social work loads.
AA powders are clean, accurate, and meter well.

[Sunray]

"...prefer to shoot .38 Special/.38 Special +P..." Load .357 brass to .38 velocities for one. Makes the lube gunk ring in the cylinders go away.
Forget the lead RN bullets for carrying. Cops quit using them, long ago, for a reason. Actually declared unsafe by our cop unions, up here. Lead RN's out of a .38 reportedly bounce off windshields. LSWC's aren't much better.
"...for .38 Special +P rounds..." Alliant gives a 3.9 grains max load of Bullseye out of a 6" barrel as a +P .38 158 gr LSWC. 874 FPS. That's faster than a 158 XTP with HP-38. Mind you, a LSWC isn't an XTP.
"...experienced shooters who know what they're doing use Bullseye..." Definitely for 148 grain WC's. As much as I like Bullseye, there are better powders for jacketed bullets.

[BlayGlock]

I use Unique for .38 special, but be warned it is dirty.