[AcceptableUserName]

This discussion relates to personal defense. The need for as tight pattern for duck-hunting or longrange waterfowl applications is obvious...So it seems like tight patterns are all the rage right now. I mean extra tight stuff. Solid projectile in everything but name type of stuff. People with Vang Comp-ed barrels, screw in choke tubes and super high tech Flitecontrol or Hornady TAP type stuff. Why?

I like the Flitecontrol stuff a lot. I believe in a reasonably tight pattern as well as the next guy. Fliers and unpredictable patterns are bad. But I also think a lot of this leads to a pattern that's TOO tight. After all, it is a SCATTERGUN and that nickname is part of the reputation/appeal/apparent advantages of the shotgun. I mean, am I wrong? As much as I like the Flitecontrol stuff, personally I'm starting to buy more of the classic, "looser" stuff....a 3-5" pattern at 25 yards is a slug, let's be honest with ourselves..



just was thinking about this today, thought I'd bring it up.

[Todd A]

After all, it is a SCATTERGUN and that nickname is part of the reputation/appeal/apparent advantages of the shotgun. I mean, am I wrong?

IMHO you are wrong.

I want to put all 16 pellets of my HD load (#1 buck) right where I want it.

The advantage of a scattergun in personal defence is a large payload of lead striking the target. No "flyers", no "one pellet in the shoulder, one in the ankle" stuff. Just a nice tight group.;)

[AcceptableUserName]

I know what you're saying and I agree.


But I believe there's a HUGE discrepancy between on target, which is good, to handicapped spread, which in my opinion is bad...if the only difference between the 00 out of your barrel and the slug is penetration, I'd probably go with the slug because of the higher velocity and energy deposit...I choose buckshot because of the spread characteristic...

it seems to me a nice evenly dispersed 4-10" grouping of 00 buckshot is optimal, but maybe I'm wrong...I'm talking between 15-25 here, anything closer is going to be a moot issue, unless it's REALLY bad stuff. :D


I should have clarified that I'm referring mostly to 00 buck here. #1 and especially #4 can probably fall victim to an excess spread/loss of terminal capability faster because of the shot size and it'd be much bigger issue in those loads to have a considerably loose "shifty" pattern.

[glockgod]

Outdoors I can see, as the range could vary greatly. But anything indoors is well served by low brass target shells. From 7 yards and in they have enuf ass to serve well without endangering innocents in another room.

[ArmedBear]

The advantage of a scattergun in personal defence is a large payload of lead striking the target. No "flyers", no "one pellet in the shoulder, one in the ankle" stuff. Just a nice tight group.

If that's your objective, use a nice expanding slug. Pellets hit the target one at a time. If you want a slug, then use a slug. It will work like a slug.

[RatDrall]

Outdoors I can see, as the range could vary greatly.

You never know when you'll need to head outdoors.

But anything indoors is well served by low brass target shells. From 7 yards and in they have enuf ass to serve well without endangering innocents in another room.

No one should say this unless they've personally stopped a violent and determined threat with bird shot. I used to think that .22lr is enough for 'coons, then I shot one in the head at very close range and the bullet deflected off of its skull. I now advocate .38spl for racoons in the yard :uhoh:

Ask gun-savvy EMTs, First Responders, and Emergency Room Surgeons about bird shot and they will tell you that most bird shot wounds are aweful looking yet superficial and certainly not a stopping wound.

[ArmedBear]

You never know when you'll need to head outdoors.

If I have to head outdoors while being attacked, I hope I can grab a rifle.

Shotguns are great for close-range self-defense, and they've put a lot of birds on our table this year. For longer ranges on anything bigger than a goose, a rifle would be my only choice.

[Kyle1886]

I would think a lot depends on your environment. Where I live, anything that does not stay in the BG, is a potential "innocent hit" and/or law suit.

[19-3Ben]

I am right with the OP. I actually load Remington Express 12ga. 00buck in my 870HD rather than all the fancy-pants super tight loads.
Why?

The farthest distance that I'll use that shotgun realistically is 10 yards. At that distance it puts all pellets into about 8 inches. At 5 yards, it's about a 3-4 inch spread. I actually really really LIKE the idea that there is a bit of fudge factor. When I shoot a 'blue man' target, and see my shot pattern all over the heart and lungs with a couple into the surrounding tissue it's very comforting to realize that if I am 2-3 inches off, I'll still likely get a few solid hits. With a very tight pattern I wouldn't.

For anything longer than 10 yards, I'd pull out the rifle anyway (or load the slugs that are in the side-saddle).

[highorder]

I think that many people are interested in tight patterns know that you are responsible for every pellet that leaves your muzzle.

No one wants 8 pellets in the bad guy and one flyer on it's way to a winnable lawsuit.

[content]

Hello friends and neighbors // I think everyone should try Flight control.

It might pattern exactly as you like.
I perfer the 2 3/4" LE Reduced Recoil 00, still tight but not slug like when indoors.
I now keep 5 slugs in the butt cuff as a "go to" round if needed as well.
Sometimes there is just nothing like a slug.

[Steve C]

Household distances are so short that any discussion regarding "pattern" is for the most part just idle prattle. The effectiveness of a shotgun, like a SMG, is multiple hits over a larger area than a single bullet with greater likelihood of impacting a vital. You still need to aim at household distances, none of the "just point in the general direction" nonsense you sometimes hear people say.

[ArmedBear]

No one wants 8 pellets in the bad guy and one flyer on it's way to a winnable lawsuit.

True. And if you think you can guarantee that there won't be such a flier, I've got a bridge to sell you.

I don't keep a shotgun loaded for HD. I've shot a lot of shotguns, and I handload for them, too, when I feel like it.

A .45 is a lot more maneuverable in tight spaces, easy to hide, easy to carry, easy to lock up and retrieve, and it's a lot easier to be responsible for all your projectiles when you're not shooting a bunch of round ones.

You still need to aim at household distances

Really? I don't AIM at a pheasant as it flies past 35 yards. Why sacrifice the shotgun's greatest asset, rapid acquisition, by using it like a rifle?

("Pointing" does NOT mean "point in the general direction". It's a specific, and precise, technique.)

[MCgunner]

Ridiculous argument in MY house. A blunderbuss is going to shoot like a rifle 14 feet across MY living room. Matters not whether I have the full choke or the cylinder bore screwed in at these ranges, I still have to place the shot property center mass. It's going to hit like a really large rifle caliber, frangible bullet. Buckshot is what I use to limit penetration in town. I don't think a BG is going far with a chest full of number 3 buck.

My shotgun is for my bedroom/saferoom, though. If I have to leave that room, I take a handgun.

[Todd A]

The advantage of a scattergun in personal defence is a large payload of lead striking the target. No "flyers", no "one pellet in the shoulder, one in the ankle" stuff. Just a nice tight group.

If that's your objective, use a nice expanding slug. Pellets hit the target one at a time. If you want a slug, then use a slug. It will work like a slug.

I sorta know that about buckshot. You see each pellet also creates its own wound channel, and dumps its energy faster than a slug. Far less likely to over-penetrate, even compared to a expanding slug.

Also should I miss buckshot is a tad safer for the houses around mine. Although I could get away with a slug, since I live in the sticks, why chance it.

[ArmedBear]

Again, the only safe way to handle a shotgun is to ASSUME that there will be a flyer. Maybe there won't, but shot patterns are Gaussian distributions. There's always the possibility of an outlier.

So, while I don't disagree that a slug will go farther than a smaller ball, I still don't buy that you can trust a tight pattern when someone's life is at risk from a flyer.

[Fred Fuller]

Whats with the tight pattern craze for SD?

I started it, it's all my fault. Blame it on me.

No, seriously, I didn't start it, but I worked on it for a while on my own in the mid to late 1990s before running across other shotgunners with similar interests. One of them was Mark Penman in Raleigh, another shotgun student of Louis Awerbuck's and an experimenter as well as a political commentator. Mark would do things like swapping pellets from shotgun shell to shotgun shell to test the effects of harder alloys or plating in buckshot with all other things being equal.

There was an article on using riot guns at long range (75 yards IIRC) in one of the NRA magazines back around '98 or so, and that might well have kicked the whole thing off. Mark did one on his site (not archived anywhere since his death, sadly) titled "The 75 Yard Riot Gun?" based on that article.

As to the whys and wherefores and who wants what, I'm all for everyone getting what they want in shotgun patterns. I like tight buckshot patterns at longer ranges in a defensive gun, others want 'em wide. It's fine with me either way.

lpl

[Dave McCracken]

Shotguns excel in dumping large amounts of kinetic energy into targets, including hostile ones.

A forensic expert who shoots told me that the most effective pattern would be 5-8" across and striking the CNS with large pellets.

The longest shot here inside would see a pattern maybe 5" ETE. At that distance, breath mints in a 2 3/4" hull will work, though please do not try it.

But,we cannot predict the distance or circumstances of our next firefight. If we could, we could avoid it completely.

So I want the tightest patterns I can reasonably get.

I have the knowledge, training and experience to place that pattern where it counts.

And if any of us lack that expertise and are trying to substitute spread instead.

You're dwelling in an illusion.....

[roo_ster]

I am a slug-man who currently lives where a slug is too great a risk to my neighbor(1) for me to use them exclusively in SD.

So, I use the best-patterning of the readily-available buckshot in my area, which happens to be Rem 2 3/4 Express 000. I might try some of the less-common high-dollar buck loads (like the Fed FC wad loads), but until then, the 000 does the trick.







(1) Only one neighbor I worry about. All our houses are brick fascia, but the part of his that faces my front door is vinyl siding and window.

[Uncle Mike]

http://www.ddupleks.lv/data/Image/Hexolit_32_picture.jpg

http://www.ddupleks.lv/EN/articles/show/products

[nicksterdemus]

I figured w/18.5" cyl brl that I wasn't going to get a very tight pattern. 2 3/4 00 was 12" @ 14 yds and 3"magnum 000 was 9".

All I'm hearing is how good reduced or std 2 3/4 loads are in 00 for HD.

I thought #4 buck(16" @ 14yds) was a good compromise and then I read where #1 can't be beat.

I guess I'll have to buy a pack and test the pattern.

[Youngster]

Myself I like a medium sized {7-10" @ 25 yards} pattern, this gives me enough of a fudge factor out at the range that I expect to start needing it but without being too sloppy.

[DammitBoy]

Anybody ever hear of a duckbill spreader?

http://www.gunsamerica.com/UserImages/87270/995728148/pop_wm_1742132.jpg

[glockgod]

I used to think that .22lr is enough for 'coons, then I shot one in the head at very close range and the bullet deflected off of its skull. I now advocate .38spl for racoons in the yard It's a good thing my grandparents didn't know a .22 wouldn't kill a hog or beef or they'd a starved to death! Ask gun-savvy EMTs, First Responders, and Emergency Room Surgeons about bird shot and they will tell you that most bird shot wounds are aweful looking yet superficial and certainly not a stopping wound. Tell that to a couple kids in my class when I was in school. Be sure to yell,they're a long ways away!

[huntsman]

Whats with the tight pattern craze for SD?

Funny I always wondered why the obsession with a cylinder bore. I mean a imp/cyl or skeet 1 would be more useful in a field gun and SD.

[[Pb]]

I favor a wide pattern for extreme close range encounters. I have slugs on hand and a variety of other weapons much more suited for shooting beyond 25 yards, although I really doubt that will happen in my house, since it is about 10 yards long max.


Lets face it fellas:
Even a wide pattern in a shotgun is effective further out than a handgun, and a lot more powerful. Yet you won't hear the same scorn of handguns for "long range" home defense (whatever that is.) :rolleyes:

[scoutsabout]

Well... like Ben alluded to... the short, straight cylindar shotgun that slings heavy lead is the optimal defensive performer. A perfect blend of hit probability and terminal ballistics. Wicked at close range and a cone of hit probability at medium ranges.

I use a Remington 870 Express Magnum with 00 Buckshot for home defense and in the field. Beyond 25 yards, especially, the hit probability is a plus. Besides, we're talking about defensive ranges, right? Anything more accurate than this setup makes me feel like we should be talking about rifles.

A shotgun is a shotgun.

[earlthegoat2]

Anybody ever hear of a duckbill spreader?

Yeah, or more commonly known as the Duckbill Shot Diverter. Im not sure if it hastens spread but I know they work for making the spread wider.

Someone on here did a test with one and it seemed to work as advertised.

[Fred Fuller]

Anybody ever hear of a duckbill spreader?

Yep. Got one just like the picture, an A&W Diverter, only on an old 870 Riot (20") barrel. $70 barrel and all on eBay a few years ago. It works as advertised with #4 buck.

lpl

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5228331

[Hunterdad]

I was watching a show called Personal Defense a couple of days ago. They were shooting 00 Buck out of a Mossberg 590 with a cylinder bore. They were shooting at steel from 10 yards and the pattern was no bigger than my fist. If I remember correctly, most SD/HD situations happen within 7 or so feet of eachother.Try using #4 field loads at 7 feet, it's pretty devistating.

Alot of people think that once shot leaves the muzzle that it just scatters everywhere. Go to the range and try it yourself....I was surprised when I did.

[nicksterdemus]

I patterned some various shot sizes @ 14 yds and the 4 buck spread along the same size as the 4 bird w/not as many holes.

That's eyeballin' coz I didn't want to count every last little hole.

I haven't had time to pattern for 1 1/4 oz, 1440'ps, 3" BB steel though I'm thinking it might be tighter than the 4 buck.

However, I figure it might be a tad hard to distinguish the difference @ 15-20'.

YMMV