sig 556 VS ruger sr-556 vs su-16c


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jlott00
January 5, 2010, 12:56 AM
im pretty much a noob, but i know that personaly i want an ar with a gas system.....so i have found these three rifles.

can anyone tell me a bit about them, compare and which they prefer?

things i have noticed is sig had a charging handle while the ruger has the normal AR style....

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MrCleanOK
January 5, 2010, 01:22 AM
Only the SR-556 is an AR. AR is short for "ArmaLite", the company that invented the AR-15, and the name has become a common descriptor for that rifle and its clones made by other companies. All of the rifles you mentioned have "gas systems", so I'm presuming you are talking about a gas piston operating system vs. the direct impingement system of most ARs.

If I could recommend something not on the list, it'd be a direct impingement AR. I'm just not sold on piston ARs, especially if you aren't running a suppressor. If I had to pick something off your list, I'd go with the Ruger. Kel-Tec's rifles seem toyish and cheap to me, and the replacement parts market for Sigs doesn't hold a candle to the AR market. Plus, the ergonomics of ARs is hard to beat.

Do you have a local gun shop where you can go handle an AR and Sig side by side, and see which one you like more? Just out of curiosity, why are you sold on a piston operating system? And, if you really want a piston rifle, have you thought about the king of them all, the AK?

jlott00
January 5, 2010, 01:28 AM
i have an arsenal Ak-47. i was wanting a 223 and ar mag plateform.
so i am using what the military uses etc.it ust easy to find mag pouches..mags themselfs etc
i also just want a tough gun that can go with out cleanings, bc when i think of shtf.. i wont have time to change out a part or clean it all the time. and ive had people tell me at about 1k rounds its time to change a few parts on the AR..



i could get a mag adapter for a saiga 223 also..for about 430 rifle/adapter

the ruger is gas operated though correct?

Avenger29
January 5, 2010, 01:42 AM
i also just want a tough gun that can go with out cleanings, bc when i think of shtf.. i wont have time to change out a part or clean it all the time. and ive had people tell me at about 1000k rounds its time to change a few parts on the AR..


The AR-15 is a pretty tough gun and is reliable without frequent cleanings. The common perceptions of the AR as a gun that will only run spotlessly clean and that it will dirty up if a speck of dirt enters the workings are false. If you have fired a lot of rounds and want to keep the gun running, dump some lube in it

I daresay the AR-15 is going to be tougher and more reliable than the SU-16. The SU-16 was designed to give you a very compact and lightweight .223 rifle that feeds of of AR-15 magazines.

1000K rounds will mean any gun is going to need some inspection and overhaul, if it makes it that far. I'm assuming you meant 10K rounds for the AR, at which it's about time to replace the bolt and change the extractor and gas rings for good measure. Do you really think you are going to fire 10K rounds thourgh your AR in it's lifetime, and especially important, do you think you are going to fire anywhere near 10k rounds through it in a survival situation? Or even 1K?

Regardless of what you choose, however, you should keep spare parts for any weapon you have on hand, and it's pretty cheap to do so for the AR-15. Any weapon is going to need periodic maintenance and possible parts replacement, and parts break on every gun. Keeping a couple of good quality bolts, and some stuff like extractors, gas rings, firing pins, etc is going to be cheap insurance for the AR-15. Replacing the parts with little to no tools is going to be easy on the AR, too, by the way.

Taking another view on parts replacement and spare parts availability, spares for the Sig 556 are going to be pretty few and far between, same for the SU-16. I'm not even sure how much in the way of spare parts for these rifles you can purchase currently.

The Ruger SR-556 is going use a mixture of common parts, but the oh so critical gas system setup is unique to the SR-556.

May, however, I suggest a different course of action? If you absolutely have to have a gun with a piston gas system, look into buying a Saiga rifle in .223 and have a Magnoila State Armory AR-15 magazine adapter added to it? That would give you a rifle you are familar with and the requirements you desire and at a decent price.

Do some more research before purchasing any of the three you listed. The piston ARs aren't what they are cracked up to be. The Sig 556 is a bit of an odd duck and the SU-16 just isn't in the same class as the other two rifles.

C-grunt
January 5, 2010, 05:04 AM
Avenger has some solid advice. The gas piston ARs havent proven themselves yet and each manufacturers is different from the next.

The Sig is a nice rifle but is a bit heavy. Same with the Ruger.

I dont think I would trust the Kel Tec for a SHTF situation. I hear its a good rifle but it seems rather lightly constructed to me.

From your list I would choose either the Sig or the Ruger. Both should perform well.

jlott00
January 5, 2010, 09:28 AM
i was under the impression that an AR needed parts replaced after just 1k rounds? and also was told that after 100 rounds its so dirty you start getting FTF's?

nutinfancy loves the su-16c...which is what gave me hope that it was nice.
No ill never shoot 10k rounds but i could see my self shooting 300 before cleaning. i also liked the 4.7 pounds the kel wheights.

Bartholomew Roberts
January 5, 2010, 10:25 AM
i was under the impression that an AR needed parts replaced after just 1000k rounds? and also was told that after 100 rounds its so dirty you start getting FTF's?

Whoever gave you that impression/told you that doesn't know much about AR15s and probably should be avoided as a source of information.

You keep mentioning "1000k rounds". Typically "k" is an abbreviation for "1,000". 1,000k would be 1,000,000 rounds - which is probably significantly beyond the design limits of any small arm manufactured today even under ideal conditions.

Like any machine, parts replacement depends on use. It is very difficult to pin down reliable parts replacement numbers for AR15s because:

A) Not everybody uses the same quality of parts in their AR builds and some parts are better than others

B) Everybody has different shooting schedules - 10,000 rounds fired over 10 years with the barrel never heating past 150F is going to show a lot different wear than 10,000 rounds fired in a single day - which will likely destroy at least some of the rifle parts.

Having said that, with good quality parts, you can usually replace the bolt when you replace the barrel.

As far as after 100 rounds it is do dirty it stops functioning properly, that is just BS. If a rifle is doing that, it is a bad/broken rifle. A properly built AR will not do that. In classes I have run mine 450-750 rounds in a day with no cleaning or additional lubrication added.

As far as cleaning, I believe Pat Rogers has several direct impingement ARs that are now past 10,000 rounds with no cleaning of any kind. They just periodically add more lube. One of them is even at 28,000+ rounds with no cleaning (though it has had parts replacement). So an AR will definitely run dirty - they will get pretty filthy run like that; but they will run as long as they are well-lubed.

As far as the rifles you are looking at:

The SIG 556 has an AK-style gas piston system. Of the three you mentioned, it probably has the most proven track record.

The Ruger SR556 is a new entry and not a lot is known about it other than it seems to be having the teething issues typical of a new rifle. Trying to wedge a gas piston system into a space designed for a direct impingement system is actually a good engineering challenge and presents new problems.

I have no experience with the SU-16C, so I won't comment. What little experience I do have with Keltec tells me that they are not in the same class as the other two rifles.

Nick Nasty
January 5, 2010, 12:21 PM
I own a SIG 556. Several people have called it an "AR" style weapon in this thread and that is inaccurate. As stated above, it's very similar in its action to an AK design. It is a great rifle whose only detractor is that it's front-heavy. Doesn't bother me, but it might affect smaller shooters.

I don't care for the M4/M16 very much. People on this board tend to deny or excuse its faults, but it speaks loudly that it is the only weapon design to this day that operates with direct impingement (obscure weapon trivia to follow by another poster). I don't recall going to a range without numerous Soldiers' rifles failing, and had several fail on me for various reasons. It's the dirtiest and most finicky rifle you can buy.

C-grunt
January 5, 2010, 02:19 PM
If your AR cant go more than 100 rounds without a malfunction than something is wrong. My department rifle, a Bushmaster, ran flawlessly (reliability wise) through our rifle class that on some days was close to 1000 rounds. I cleaned it after class every day and lubed it then.

Cleaning was a functions clean, not 1st Sgt inspection clean, and took maybe 10 minutes.

C-grunt
January 5, 2010, 02:26 PM
Also, my personal Colt went several months and several hundred rounds without a cleaning while proving itself reliable. Since then I now clean it after I shoot it because its my primary home defense weapon.

Broken11b
January 5, 2010, 02:39 PM
Nick Nasty, If your unit's weapons were failing like that, I'd have to think that it was a maintenance problem above operator level.
Military rifles that are older than the operator must be maintained and have parts replaced regularly, round counts must be recorded.
new rifles work well, well maintained weapons work well, poorly maintained weapons do not.
The Fault was not in the DI system, It was your armorer and above level maintenance that failed you.

Hatterasguy
January 5, 2010, 03:30 PM
The Sig is nothing like an AR. Sig changed the lower so they can use AR mags and AR stocks but thats where the similarities end.

The Sig 5XX series rifles are based on the AK with a FAL gas system.

Personaly I think a real Swiss made Sig, not the 556 the 550 is the best 5.56 rifle you can buy. Sadly they are pretty rare and expensive in this country.

If you want a tough 5.56 chambered rifle I would recomend a Sig 5XX series, FN SCAR, or G36.


BTW I shoot about 1k rounds through my Sig556 before I bother doing a total field strip and cleaning. You don't have to clean them that much, all the fouling stays up front on the piston head.

CA2005
January 5, 2010, 06:04 PM
I would go with the SIG 556 and not give it another thought. I have yet to try a piston AR, but I have a long history with the traditional AR platform. I like it, but my SIG 556 blows it out of the water. IMHO

Frankl03
January 5, 2010, 08:23 PM
I owned a Sig 556 and I don't think I would buy another one. Mine was not as accurate as ARs I have owned. The bolt handle is cheesy and the mechanism that holds the bolt handle can break. They do stay clean in the chamber though. Also Sig seems to have had allot of QC problems and complaints such as uppers and lowers not matching well, loose fitting uppers, poor finish etc. I was a member of the Sig forum (Sig 556: Index) and those guys were always complaining about their rifles.

jlott00
January 5, 2010, 09:45 PM
great info so far thanks, any other that can comment on the sig's accuracy ?

jlott00
January 5, 2010, 10:32 PM
sorry guys i ment 1k.not 1000k.... my mind was asleep i guess

trigga
January 5, 2010, 10:39 PM
the su16 is an excellent choice if your on a budget, it's not gonna win any beauty pageants but it's reliability is superb. personally i like the traditional ar15. just add a piston conversion kit.

Nick Nasty
January 5, 2010, 11:28 PM
People on this board tend to deny or excuse its faults

Nick Nasty, If your unit's weapons were failing like that, I'd have to think that it was a maintenance problem above operator level.
Military rifles that are older than the operator must be maintained and have parts replaced regularly, round counts must be recorded.
new rifles work well, well maintained weapons work well, poorly maintained weapons do not.
The Fault was not in the DI system, It was your armorer and above level maintenance that failed you.

I don't know what it is about the M4/M16 DI system that has people so devoted to it (to the point where it's the fault of everyone and everything in the Army but the rifle). Again, I offer: no other weapon uses a DI system. All gas-operated rifles before and since use some sort of piston variant. The Army and Marines have both said they no longer want DI and that they want a piston system.

I see on this site a lot of stories about miracle AR-15s that run thousands of rounds at the range, and the operator merely kisses the stock and rubs it for luck and it runs without problems. I have never seen this AR-15 in real life. I've seen countless filthy, stoppage-prone M4s and M16s that won't run unless they're dripping with CLP (before it carmelizes). This has been my experience with them. You can't make it not so.

Weedy
January 5, 2010, 11:49 PM
sorry guys i ment 1k.not 1000k.... my mind was asleep i guess
I don't think an apology is necessary, I can't find any place where you wrote "1000K." Correct me if I'm wrong though...

Ah, now I see you edited. Which I must do now.

jimmy0622
January 5, 2010, 11:53 PM
I'm with broken11b on this one Nick, you may have only had experience with stoppage prone AR's, but as a Marine I can attest to the fact that if there are that many problems with the weapon it's due to poor maintenance. I've shot countless thousands of rounds through M16/M4's and had nothing but love for it, we had great armorers that took excellent care of our weapons and I have and would still trust my life to that weapon system.

CA2005
January 5, 2010, 11:57 PM
The SIG 556 will likely never by quite as accurate as an AR, but it's close, and you get an edge in reliability and ease of cleaning. If you could split the difference between AR accuracy and that of the AK....you get the SIG 556. Three inch groups at 100M is not hard to achieve. With the right ammo, 2 inches is very likely. More than accurate enough for a combat rifle.

As far as people complaining about the SIG 556...I've never seen a weapon nitpicked as much as the 556. People are very critical of it. I'm not sure why. I think much of the rep began when the rifle was introduced. People did not like the stock set and SIG did have a problem with canted rails and non-matching finish on the uppers and lowers of some early rifles. This has all been fixed, especially since they introduced the 556 Classic with it's improved Swiss type stock set and push pin lower. They've totally fixed the finish and rail problems as well. You get play between the upper and lower with Colt AR's too, so this is the nature of the beast. It does not have as tight of tolerence as an AR, so you will get some slop, but this aids in the reliability of the rifle. I think the problem comes from people who are so used to the accuracy of the AR15 that 3 inch groups from the SIG seems unacceptable. I can understand that. However, the rifle is sound, high quality and I for one love it.

I'm not knocking a good quality AR, I just bought a Sabre Defence A4 20 inch rifle and I love it, however, I would pick the SIG 556 over it if I could only have one.

Bartholomew Roberts
January 6, 2010, 08:23 AM
Again, I offer: no other weapon uses a DI system. All gas-operated rifles before and since use some sort of piston variant. The Army and Marines have both said they no longer want DI and that they want a piston system.

Actually, direct impingement was used in the AG42 Lljungman and the MAS-40, MAS-44, and MAS-49 rifles, all of which served with the militaries of their respective countries and were exported in military sales as well. The M16 is one of the most widely used/exported rifles in the world, it would probably be up there with the Kalshnikov if U.S. Arms Export laws were anywhere near as lenient as Russia's.

Also, I've yet to see where the Army or Marines have said they no longer want DI; both of them are still purchasing DI weapons in quantities far larger than piston systems of any kind.

You want a weapon with a unique operating system that hasn't been copied or used by any other designer in the world ever before? Look at an AR15 gas piston conversion - the only weapon in the world that combines a gas piston with a tubular receiver with no frame rails for the bolt carrier group.

Somehow every other weapon in the history of weapons design has figured that having rails in the upper receiver for the bolt carrier is a good idea when designing a gas piston.

This has been my experience with them. You can't make it not so.

Fair enough; but if the problem is a defective design, then why do you read all those stories about AR15s going thousands of rounds with no problem? Are all those people lying to you in a big conspiracy?

LiquidTension
January 6, 2010, 10:15 AM
The Sig is heavy. The trigger is odd. The sights (on the first version anyway) are terrible. It is more expensive than an AR. It is louder to run suppressed (not uncommon for piston guns). Accuracy is about the same as most ARs.

I still love mine though. I have a Millett DMS-1 mounted on it. Add the suppressor and it turns into a crew served weapon - super heavy. Would I trust it to run through a class? Absolutely. It's been 100% reliable. Would I want to lug it around? Absolutely not.

The pistol version registered as an SBR is very nice though....

Tirod
January 6, 2010, 10:38 AM
There are two myths about the AR that will always keep circulating - one, that military AR's run dirty will have stoppages, two, the military actually knows how to maintain the weapon.

The problems I saw - few and far between - in my career in the Reserves were directly related. The military culture likes to overclean the weapon to the point it has the finish removed from the bolt and carrier. Even the barrel gets swabbed out too much, from the wrong end, and with power tools to boot. The command climate does not and has never followed the Ordnance's directives on proper user maintenance and virtually ignores the subject matter experts. After all, they are in command, not some E8 who actually tests weapons and makes recommendations, right?

Those scraped up and very clean weapons are then stored dry, dry, dry, where they corrode, are then taken out the range, and shot dry. YES, STOPPAGES WILL OCCUR WITH THIS KIND OF ABUSE.

Frankly, what anybody saw or experienced in the military concerning M16 maintenance is exactly the nightmare that continues the rumor mongering. It's no different than saying brand X car maker has a junk product because most of the owners never change the oil and drag race them from a cold start. The mistake is made accepting that as proper operation.

Pistons - whether the new SIG 516, Ruger, STAG, POF, ad infinitum, are all being developed and marketed because of an upcoming COTS carbine test to type approve some new rifles. It doesn't mean any of them will survive the testing or even that a piston design will be chose. It does mean there is a lot of money on the table, plenty of well heeled gullible buyers, and a climate of misinformation and downright ignorance floating about.

A better quality AR with direct gas impingement has been the military standard since about 1968, the issues were addressed 30 years ago, and it's time to accept it at face value.

Not that I did, I bought a HK in the '70's. But after twenty two years, even I'm not so dense that it can sink in. My issue AR's did not fail me. I failed them with not lubricating them enough. At least I always qualified and fired Expert.

With a background of shooting 100X more ammo than I ever did with the HK, I finally dumped the overweight monster and I'm building a DI AR 15, 16" barrel. It will handle like a lever action, shoot as accurately as a bolt action, and function like a combat carbine when/if needed. I will be able to afford spare parts and have them in hand from any source I want, rather than be restricted to a single source - if available in the future. And if I want to change uppers, calibers, or barrel length, I can, inexpensively, without going back to the same maker hat in hand, waiting for them to bother making it.

No pistons for me, it's a marketing exercise directed at separating the government from it's money, and after the trials, a lot of designs will dry up and disappear because they failed. I don't need a collector wall hanger, I'm buying a tool I can use.

briansmithwins
January 6, 2010, 12:36 PM
Let's see the contestants:

Sig 556- Adaptation of a military rifle that passed trials. Based on the AK action.

Ruger piston gun- Let's stick a gas piston on a rifle never designed for it. Never seen military trials.

SU16- Simple cheap rifle. Emphasis on the cheap. Never seen military trials.

If ruggedness is your primary concern I'd say the Sig wins hands down. Another, less expensive option would be a 5.56 AK. The Arsenal rifles can be had for under $1k (that's one thousand dollars ($1000)).

I;ve got around 4k (four thousand(4000)) rounds thru my primary AR, including 1k (one thousand(1000)) in 4 days at a rifle class. I've experienced 1 breakage in that time, a gas carrier key screw. The rifle remained functional and I found the screw was broken when cleaning.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/briansmithwins/IMG_1373.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/briansmithwins/screw.jpg



BSW

G27RR
January 6, 2010, 01:47 PM
I have had a 556 SWAT with a Nikon red dot on it for several months now. It has the newer sights, which I like. The Nikon cowitnesses with those sights perfectly and right out of the box it was shooting 1'' four-shot groups at 50 meters with bulk ammo. I was and am very pleased with it. I don't know what all the fuss is about the stock and sights, but it must be primarily about the lower models with the flip up sights. The SWAT model is great. I have also had zero problems with the Sig magazines, although some say they can be a problem. I have a several Magpul AR-15 mags that also work great.

I do agree that it is a bit muzzle heavy. A vertical grip can help some people with that. If I had to choose again, I'd still buy it. I have no experience with the Ruger or SU-16 so can't comment there.

ArfinGreebly
January 6, 2010, 02:24 PM
(Drifting just a little . . .)

Just musing on how long it would take to shoot 1,000k (1,000,000) rounds through an AR.

Assume four hours a week at the range shooting said AR. Assume hand loading of magazines. Assume one minute to load a 20-round magazine. Assume 2 seconds to load and charge rifle. Assume 2 seconds per aimed shot. Assume a reasonably constant shooting session where one loads a 20-round magazine, shoots using aimed fire, reloads, and so on. For four hours. No coffee or potty breaks. Also assume the rifle requires no cleaning and has no failures.

At one minute per 20-round magazine, it would take 1,000,000 / 20 minutes to load all the rounds. That's 50,000 minutes of loading magazines. That's a further 100,000 seconds to load and charge all the magazines, or 1,667 minutes. Total magazine handling time: 51,667 minutes.

At two seconds per round, aimed fire, that's 2,000,000 seconds, or 33,333 minutes.

So, we're at 51,667 + 33,333 minutes, or 85,000 total, giving 85,000 / 60 = 1,417 hours of range time.

At four hours per week, that's 1,417 / 4 = 354 weeks. At 52 weeks per year, that's 6.8 years. Throw in a little vacation time, and you're at about seven years.

So, if you religiously shot for four hours every week for seven years, using magazines you loaded while at the range, and nothing broke, it would take most of seven years to shoot up a million rounds of ammo. (And we never even got into handling the targets.)

I'm sure you were all just dying to know that.

:D

eye5600
January 6, 2010, 04:19 PM
Speaking strictly as an observer, the AR-15 and AK-47 have a market advantage over their competition due to the much higher sales volume, and the large number of separate manufacturers.

For the AR-15, there the existence of a milspec. I don't mean to say that every AR-15 is milspec, but to survive in the competitive market, every AR-15 has to be nearly milspec. Dealers are going to drop a bad AR-15 manufacturer in a heartbeat because they have plenty of good suppliers. So I believe you are going to get more value (quality per dollar) in an AR-15 than any other similar rifle. I don't think you can make a case for a Mini-14 or SU-16 based on value. (If you want one for its unique features, that's fine, but I don't think it's a better rifle for the money.)

sig220mw
January 6, 2010, 04:40 PM
jlott00 no need to apoligize you said 1k in your post avenger29 mistakenly repeated it as 1000k in his.

JHansenAK47
January 6, 2010, 05:06 PM
Again, I offer: no other weapon uses a DI system. All gas-operated rifles before and since use some sort of piston variant.
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as81-e.htm
The Iranians came out with a DI rifle.
I guess you could claim it is a reworked m16 but it is a new design and I doubt it has very many parts that will interchange with an m16, other than the magazine.

Hatterasguy
January 6, 2010, 07:36 PM
great info so far thanks, any other that can comment on the sig's accuracy ?
I'm not a crack shot, I just enjoy shooting. But my groupings with my 556 are pretty tight. Its not a nail driver, its a rack weapon.


Its more than accurate enough to hit and kill a person at any range your going to engage them with a 5.56 carbine.


Ever since I switched to quality mags mine has been 100% reliable. Not one single hickup of anykind in the last 900 rounds I have put through it. Everytime I pull the trigger it goes bang without fail. When I first got mine I had feeding problems with the Sig mags, Pmags fixed this.

Avenger29
January 6, 2010, 10:05 PM
jlott00 no need to apoligize you said 1k in your post avenger29 mistakenly repeated it as 1000k in his.

I did not mistakenly repeat "1000K". He had "1000K" in his second post. I copied and pasted directly from that post, then put the quote tags around it.

For the AR-15, there the existence of a milspec. I don't mean to say that every AR-15 is milspec, but to survive in the competitive market, every AR-15 has to be nearly milspec. Dealers are going to drop a bad AR-15 manufacturer in a heartbeat because they have plenty of good suppliers. So I believe you are going to get more value (quality per dollar) in an AR-15 than any other similar rifle. I don't think you can make a case for a Mini-14 or SU-16 based on value. (If you want one for its unique features, that's fine, but I don't think it's a better rifle for the money.)

There is variation as to the quality of AR parts, but most of the manufactorers seem to do a pretty good job of keeping the dimensions pretty close to standard. Which allows you to have a rifle, say, a Rock River lower, JP enterprises trigger, Magpul MOE stock, A2 pistol grip, Olympic upper, Bushmaster BCG, and White Oak barrel, and have everything pretty much play nice together.

Girodin
January 7, 2010, 01:23 AM
i could get a mag adapter for a saiga 223 also..for about 430 rifle/adapter


I would advise against ordering a Mongolia State Armory adapter from their website. The adapters were a good product but the owner apparently had some personal problems and he is not living up to his business obligations. There are many people that ordered months ago and have not received their adapters. Their attempts to contact him have gone unanswered and refunds have not been issued.

Various persons are in the process of seeking resolution through the CC companies, pay pal or other legal avenues.

Further MSA has had their business account suspended on the saiga forums for failing to pay and failing to respond to repeated attempts by the administrators of that sight to contact him over the course of 4 moths.

The worst par IMHO is MSA has their sight up and will accept your order still. I would not plan on getting anything you order however. I'm guessing, but the company is probably insolvent as well so recovering if you've ordered might prove difficult. The guy has basically destroyed his business rep and company name, mostly by not communicating with anyone.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
January 7, 2010, 10:56 AM
Couple off the cuff thoughts:

1. Obviously, your choices are way different price ranges. *IF* you're going to spend enough to get a Sig 556 or the Ruger, then do yourself a favor - I strongly suggest you get the Robinson XCR instead for roughly the same price - better gun, IMO. More modular / versatile, better gas system, and it's an American company. The safety on the Sig is too far forward, and the thing is heavy.

2. Actually NONE of those are truly AR15 style rifles, since by definition, the AR15 is a gas impingement rifle. But obviously the Ruger is a pseudo-AR15 style.

3. I don't like the plastic main rail on the Kel Tec - seems like it would get chewed up over time with rings/mounts. But if the rail holds up, then by most all accounts, this is a good and good shooting rifle.

4. I don't own any of those, but if I had to choose among those, I'd get the Ruger. Or as I said, better yet, a Robinson XCR or maybe wait for the Masada (Remington ACR). Or even a good true AR15 - don't believe the hype - they work great.

Nick Nasty
January 8, 2010, 08:19 AM
It's like I have a crystal ball. A few people responded to me and each described the numerous ways it was the fault of every Soldier in the entire Army and not the weapon, including incorrect guesses (stored and fired "dry dry dry," when the reality is, we took condiment bottles full of CLP to the range and hosed those things down).

As for the "conspiracy" angle, here's the rub: I've only read of these miraculous ARs. I've seen and experienced the opposite and know very few people in real life who wouldn't prefer another rifle to it.

Also, from my crystal ball, I knew I'd learn of some obscure weapons! I see the only one developed since the M16 (all others seem to have entered and left service in the 40s-50s) is the Iranian bullpup. Total count: 5? (Including the MAS - 4x weapons each as different guns). Now let's list piston designs.

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