[scythefwd]

All,
Getting into reloading and I am strongly considering using Nosler Ballistic Tips for my .30-30 and .308. First, are deer tough enough to cause good expansion on the noslers, or are they for "thicker skinned" game? Second, will they open up at the 2100-2300 fps that my .30-30 is doing?

Yes, I know pointy bullets in a .30-30 is generally a bad thing, but this one has a box magazine... not a tube mag.

[R.W.Dale]

in my experience with the 30 cal b-tip offerings is they are too fragile for my tastes at impact speeds over 2500fps BUT this makes em an excellent choice for 30-30 class cartridges. In fact Nosler advertises the 125g b-tip to expand at impact velocities as low as 1600fps

For more read my sig link for the x39 doe

but your concern about these bullets being too tough- not a chance

[wgp]

I shoot a lot of Ballistic Tips for practice, but hunt with Partitions of same weight (150 gr in .308, 165 gr in .06). I had one experience shooting a deer with a BT and it appeared me that the bullet broke up and did not penetrate as I wanted. Penetration has never been an issue with the Partitions. I see the BT frequently recommended as a hunting round so perhaps my experience was not the norm -- still, the Partition has never failed me so I go that way.

[hillbillydelux]

I am sure you will get many different opinions. My favorite deer load is .30-06 with 150 grain ballistic tip. I have used partitions and like them very much but also cost about 1 dollar per bullet. But for whitetail I find the Ballistic tips do a wonderfull job.

[wyohome]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y156/Deaver/IMGP1477.jpg

150 grain BT at 160 yards from a .308. The large hole is the entrance, the lungs were in 4 pieces. The last four deer shot with that rifle have been with BT and only one didn't die right there. The one below ran 20 yards.


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y156/Deaver/IMGP0147.jpg

[lost river rat]

Balistic Tip are soft and expand easily. The deer pics are typical. Notice how the entrance hole is bgger than the exit! A friend is shooting the 120 BT from his 30-30 pistol and the bullets are not exiting or have enough left to find. Nosler says about 65% weight retension. That would have to be at low velocity.

For a lot less money per bullet, I prefer the Hornady Interlocks. Still soft bullets, but a little less "explosion" when they hit. Shot a lot of wt deer with the 30 cal 150 interlock loaded at about 2750.

The 150 BT will expand in your magazine fed 30-30 and quite devistating in your 308.

[Arkel23]

Well, I have "Magnumitis" along with a few friends, and we try to stay far away from ballistic tips. I have one friend that says his ballistics tips tore up alot of meat either with his .270 or his .243 I'll try to find out, how far will your shots be?

[lost river rat]

I have seen the 130 0.277 BT blow at 300 yards. That is why I don't like then.

[wyohome]

I have one friend that says his ballistics tips tore up alot of meat

That's why you don't shoot them in the 'meat'. You shoot them in the heart and lungs.

[jmr40]

I've killed a few deer and 1 bear with 165 gr ballistic tips out of a 30-06. Have not recovered a bullet yet. All have had complete penetration and left a 1-2" exit hole and the animals have been DRT.

[Arkel23]

You shoot them in the heart and lungs. He's not the greatest hunter, but I'm not completely sure where he shot it, I also know of someone who just this season had ballistic tips bounce around in the deer.

[Kernel]

wyohome, do you ever recover a bullet? If so, what does it look like?

[wyohome]

wyohome, do you ever recover a bullet? If so, what does it look like?


I have one right next to me. I have to be at work in 15 minutes and don't have time to take a picture. It is the one from the picture above. It is almost void of lead and is an off center piece of copper. The lead made the exit wound in that picture. I'll snap a picture when I get home in the morning and post it.

[atblis]

That's why you don't shoot them in the 'meat'. You shoot them in the heart and lungs.
Absolutely. An NBT in the chest cavity will lay a deer out. So far, I've had the most bang flops with NBTs. At close range where people say the NBT is too explosive due to velocity, a heart/lung shot is cake.

I want to say that Nosler toughened them up a little, but I can't find a reliable reference for that. If true, perhaps some peoples opinions are based on the old bullets.

Thing is, if you're using a 30-06, 280, 270, 308, etc. = moderate velocity and decent sized bullets--> guess what? You don't need exotic bullets. Corelokts, Winchester Power Points, etc. etc. will bang flop deer all day long.

[duvalhunter]

I recently harvested a buck with a 7mm-08, 150gr Nosler BT and got absolutely no expansion. It was disturbing to say the least seeing the entrance and exit to be smaller than a pinky circumference. Yet the next day I harvested a 150lb hog and got plenty of expansion, causing a good deal of damage (entrance wound was larger than the exit). I'm still not sure what to make of it, I've been shooting BTs for years with no issues.

[ga red clay]

I had a buddy shoot a little 6 point with a NBT out of his .270 at about 50 yards. Shot it in the neck and it did some nasty stuff. But it didnt kill the deer outright.

Shot it from about 3 yards in the chest cavity and we scooped handful after handful of heart/lung pudding out of the chest while dressing the buck. Ends up, we werent able to process the front shoulders because of damage caused by the explosion inside its chest. It was pretty impressive.

[scythefwd]

Thanks, right now I have two boxes of identifiable ammo. 1 - 168gr Winchester Supreme ballistic silver tip, says on the box that it is the work of nosler and winchester. The other I plan to sight in with (whichever shoots the best group) is a box of 150 gr federal vitalshok ammo with a Nosler ballistic tip. I also have a box of reloads my grandfather did before he passed... know nothing about them except that they are hollowpoints. I suspect gamekings, but I could be way off. I'll shoot em, his and my fathers reloads are about the only ammo I trust, but I won't hunt with them.

I'm mostly going to be using them at 100y or less, but there is a chance of 3-400y shots sometimes. May have to download them a hair (2600 fps out the muzzle or so).

[R.W.Dale]

TRUE STORY

I shot a buck at around 120isg yds with a 16? CT (black b-tip) from a 300wby. Shot went into the shoulder and DID NOT enter the chest at all. Yet the shock was so great it still killed the deer DRT.....granted the buck in question was so old he had no teeth and was covered with Grey hair. The shoulder was pretty much unedible

[scythefwd]

Krochus - I have heard of that too, where people shoot deer at 10y with a uber magnum only to have the bullet explode on contact because the velocity was too much for the distance.

[RDA 226sig]

They are not as tough as I would like them to be and the rapid expansion prevents a clean exit wound at shot angles that include the near or far shoulder. Generally a well placed BT will do a fine job.

[X-Rap]

Krochus - I have heard of that too, where people shoot deer at 10y with a uber magnum only to have the bullet explode on contact because the velocity was too much for the distance.
I have too on the internet.
My personal experience with 25-06 and 338-378 which I load NBT in 120gr and 210gr both perform well and expand in a reliable if not impressive way. For Antelope and Mulies the 25 does a spectacular job out to well over 400 and the big Roy has taken deer and elk to a couple hundred yds with performance that keeps me drinking the kool aid.
To date those are the only big game cartridges I load the BT in so I can't comment on others reliably.

[flipajig]

Go to Nosler home page and look around. Acording to Nosler the BT needs 1600FPS at impact and no more than 3100FPS for the BT to perform. I think that the ones that are shooting them and they blow up are from higer RPMS. Used at the speed that they are desind for you should be fine..

[scythefwd]

Flipajig - a 1 in 10 twist will get those rpm's way up there. Using a slower load might be advisable. I have heard of .223's self destructing due to speed/rpm's, so I could see it happening. Just hoping it won't till I get a good game load.

[wyohome]

I'll snap a picture when I get home in the morning and post it

Work is the curse of the hunting class.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y156/Deaver/IMGP1704.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y156/Deaver/IMGP1703.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y156/Deaver/IMGP1702.jpg

[MCgunner]

I shoot the 150 BT in both a 12" .30-30 Contender and a 20" Remington M7 in .308. I'm very impressed with its penetration and expansion from both guns. This bullet will readily expand. I'd read that it over-expanded, but I've shot lengthwise with complete penetration on a good sized 8 point buck with it in the .308. It penetrated 6 feet of that deer. My Contender shoots just under 2100 fps MV and I've killed deer DRT at 90 yards with it with a high lung hit.

[Todd1700]

I have never liked ballistic tips. Too fragile and prone to overexpand and fragment in my person experience. Now that said some people like them for exactly the same reason that I dislike them. They like their explosive qualities. And I will further concede that if you keep your shots broadside and behind the shoulder in the ribcage you will probably not have a problem with them.

But when I take a rifle to the woods rather than my bow I don't want to have to be as picky about shot angles as I am with my bow. I want a bullet that I can trust to get through a shoulder bone on a quartering to me shot if I need it to. Or one that I can trust to penetrate deeply on an extreme quartering away shot. And I just don't trust ballistic tips to always do it.

Also as far as the meat damage goes? yeah, if the animal is perfectly broadside and you shoot him in the ribs you won't lose any decent meat with BT's. But I have seen them fragmet and mess up meat or rupture guts on shot angles where a standard lead tip would have been fine.

Saw a guy drop a buck off at a processor once that he had shot quartering hard away with a 300 WSM and a 150 grain ballistic tip. He hit it just where you would want to with that angle, right behind the last rib. When they skinned that deer I have never seen such a mess in my life. Gut material was blown everywhere inside it. There is no doubt in my mind that both front shoulders and the neck roast had to be thrown away from the bloodshot meat. Hell there was even some bullet fragments in the tenderloin. Looked like a small fragmentation grenade went off inside it. No exit hole.

And the kicker? Acording to the hunter the buck had still ran almost 100 yards.

[Arkel23]

I'm mostly going to be using them at 100y or less, but there is a chance of 3-400y shots sometimes. May have to download them a hair (2600 fps out the muzzle or so). Yes, you may want to download them just a little, but anything over 60-70 yards IMO is good for ballistic tips I wouldn't want a deer to come up at 40-50 though.

[MCgunner]

I have never liked ballistic tips. Too fragile and prone to overexpand and fragment in my person experience. Now that said some people like them for exactly the same reason that I dislike them. They like their explosive qualities. And I will further concede that if you keep your shots broadside and behind the shoulder in the ribcage you will probably not have a problem with them.

My load is a bit under 2800 fps. 150 NBT. 6 feet of penetration, butt to neck with a nice exit wound, shot at about 60 yards. No bullet recovered. If that's "explosive with no penetration" I'll take it. I ain't shootin' elk with 'em. They are quite deadly on hogs, too, BTW.

[MCgunner]

Yes, you may want to download them just a little, but anything over 60-70 yards IMO is good for ballistic tips I wouldn't want a deer to come up at 40-50 though.

Now, that's just down right goofy right there. I show 2733 fps at the muzzle, 2671 at 50 yards, 2621 at 75 yards. You're telling me the bullet is going to perform significantly different with 50 fps velocity difference? I find that hard to comprehend.

Seems like a lot of people acting expert than don't even shoot the bullet, let alone having tested it on game. I've had nothing, but great experiences with it from both .30-30 pistol and .308 rifle. I've shoot 5 deer with it in the .30-30 and 6 deer and several hogs with it in .308. Oh, yeah, and 3 coyotes. :D

[R.W.Dale]

Where are these deer that are 6 feet long down the body?

They must grow em the size if carabu in Texas

[Arkel23]

Seems like a lot of people acting expert than don't even shoot the bullet, let alone having tested it on game. I've had nothing, but great experiences with it from both .30-30 pistol and .308 rifle. Get you a 7mm Rem mag on up, and use em on a deer :D, infact, I do and have shot ballistic tips.

[ga red clay]

Where are these deer that are 6 feet long down the body?

They must grow em the size if carabu in Texas

+1

Thats a big ole deer.

[MCgunner]

4 ft, 6 ft, whatever, lengthwise penetration of a 140 lb deer, put it that way. I haven't had a hog shoulder stop it, either.

Yeah, I have to reach over my head to cut the legs for skinning, but the body is a lot shorter, true enough.. We're somewhat dodging the point. One fellow says the bullet won't make it through a deer's shoulder. I say BS! Mine made it through a ham, through the body, out the neck! That's about the hardest possible shot to penetrate on a whitetail that I can think of. I ain't seen the deer that .308/150 BT couldn't take down in one shot, 2 feet to 500 yards (that's range, not body length).

If you think a .30 cal 150 grain BT won't shoot through a HOG both sides, let alone a DEER, you simply haven't used it and are going on net expert information.

[sdhunter]

i reload 115 gr nosler bt's out of my 25-06 at about 3000 fps muzzle velocity and have had great success on deer and antelope. all the critters shot with this combo have had complete pass through shots with the vitals left as jello. i also shoot 95 gr sst hornady's through my .243 with the same results. i am trying to get a barnes x 150 to shoot out of my 7 mag but have not had much luck with them grouping. anybody got a cure for this problem?

[wyohome]

One fellow says the bullet won't make it through a deer's shoulder

The picture in post #5 was through a shoulder before it entered the chest cavity.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y156/Deaver/IMGP1474.jpg

[R.W.Dale]

I'm sorry mc but my experiance of blowing up a b-tip using a 300wby is a fair sight more believable than your claim of 6' of penatration on what would ba a sci/fi mutant sized deer. Which incudently 6'???? many DG cartridges won't do that.

[MCgunner]

i am trying to get a barnes x 150 to shoot out of my 7 mag but have not had much luck with them grouping. anybody got a cure for this problem?

Try another bullet. LOL I've had good luck with Barnes bullets in .308 diameter, haven't tried 'em in my 7. It's real picky about bullets, though, can tell ya that. It likes the Nosler 160 Partition and the 150 game king so I've just stuck with that. I couldn't get a Hornady interlock to shoot for squat. Weird. Interlocks in 117 grain .257" shoot GREAT out of my Bob.

It's all in what the gun's favorite appetite is, I reckon, so you just gotta roll with the flow, feed it what it wants. No real fixing it if it won't group the bullet. My 7 won't do better'n 4" at 100 yards with the 162 Interlock, but puts the Partition and the game king into 1" same range and I've tried combinations of powders and primers and what not. Bullet is the most important variable. If the gun don't like the bullet, just move on.

My 0.02 at any rate.

[MCgunner]

Krochus...get rid of that POS and get something with normal velocity or download it. OR, perhaps, use a bullet constructed for those velocities. I got a little exuberant on the distance from butt to neck of a deer. No reason to make caustic remarks. My deer may be a mutant, but it don't take a belted magnum to kill and it shoots BTs at the velocity for which they were designed. :rolleyes:

What are you pushing that BT, 3800 fps? :rolleyes: You've already been told Nosler suggests 3100 as a max and the OP is shooting a .30-30 and .308, fer Christ's sake!

[Arkel23]

Krochus...get rid of that POS and get something with normal velocity or download it. Hey, I own that same POS!! And As far as I know it's far from being a POS! :D

[R.W.Dale]

Krochus...get rid of that POS and get something with normal velocity or download it.

How bout you do the same with your out dated oddball POS 257roberts and get something someone has heard of and you can buy decent ammo for.

piss ya off? Good I hope it did

FYI I haven't owned that rifle for 5 years now. I killed this years deer with a .223 so who's overkilling Bambi here?

My deer may be a mutant, but it don't take a belted magnum to kill and it shoots BTs at the velocity for which they were designed.

think about post #5 for a second it may hurt but try

at 160 yds a 150g b-tip from a 308win is impacting at only 2500fps or so. Look at the size of the entrance hole into the chest vs the tiny little bullet shank sized exit. This means that even hitting at a lesurly 2500 that B-tip fully expanded inside the thickness of the near shoulder.

Now think about how that bullet behaves with the same shot from a 30-06 (3000fps) and if the deer walks out 40yds away

You've already been told Nosler suggests 3100 as a max

Here's what nosler MEANS (at 3100 a B-tip will explode every time)......BUT only some of the time a little slower than that

[MCgunner]

:D Well, I'm not a western hunter....much. I hope to get back to New Mexico some day soon, but probably with a BP rifle. I like the idea of hunting before the snows. It's nice up there in October and the way they work the rifle seasons, you get a lot more hunting if you hunt BP. Also, you can only choose ONE season up there. Yeah, it's goofy, but it's da law.

Actually, before I get serious about going back, I need to study the CURRENT laws. It's been a while. When we were up there, I was totin' a 7 mag and my buddy a .300 Win Mag and the locals laughed at us for carrying "cannons". ROFL I've graduated a bit from my magnum phase, but I still like the cannons, sort of a Dirty Harry thing I guess. :D

I know that my 7 seems to shoot a game king a little faster than it was intended. It's an explosive bullet in that caliber, yet a great choice in my old 7x57. Velocity, it's all about velocity and the design of the bullet. If you want a one size fits all bullet, the Barnes Bullets are my choice, rapid expansion at low velocities, but always 100 percent weight retention. Magic bullets do cost a little more, but they offer superior performance on heavy game, like if I was to want to use the .308 on moose or something. A deer is no moose.

I'm sorry, Krochus, but I do not have your opinions of the BT. My experience has been good with it.

[R.W.Dale]

I'm sorry, Krochus, but I do not have your opinions of the BT. My experience has been good with it.
__________________

and for the most part as have mine, a better long range 30-30 or x39 bullet you'll not find. I'm not saying it's a bad bullet. Rather I'm just saying that it can fail even inside nosler's parameters and that up close from even from the lowly 308 win would really be pushing your luck where good penetration would be the EXCEPTION and not the norm. Any more powerful cartridge and I'm gonna suggest a different projectile. After all good ol fashioned cup and core SP's still work

example my wifes 30-06 load is a nosler 125g b-tip downloaded to 2670fps

[MCgunner]

Oh, btw, a Bob is too old to use? Hmm, well, I ain't going to re-think the black powder season deal in New Mexico despite the fact that it was current technology 175 years ago. :neener: Some folks seem to want firepower for some reason, not sure why.

[wyohome]

This means that even hitting at a lesurly 2500 that B-tip fully expanded inside the thickness of the near shoulder

Maybe I misunderstand your point, but that is exactly what I want a bullet to do. I wouldn't use them on moose or elk, but they are the near perfect bullet for deer.

[R.W.Dale]

Maybe I misunderstand your point, but that is exactly what I want a bullet to do. I wouldn't use them on moose or elk, but they are the near perfect bullet for deer.


and with the EXACT circumstances of your post I agree. But again what does it you do when the deer is only 40 yds away and the bullet still has an added 200fps on it and you have a bit more angle on that shoulder to shoot through? Also bear in mind that a 30-06 or a 300win mag adds even more impact velocity

Where the b-tip works it works well. But where it doesn't it REALLY doesn't. When selecting a projectile I tend to err on the side of under expanding a bit and over penetrate more than vise versa

[MCgunner]

Go to Nosler home page and look around. Acording to Nosler the BT needs 1600FPS at impact and no more than 3100FPS for the BT to perform. I think that the ones that are shooting them and they blow up are from higer RPMS. Used at the speed that they are desind for you should be fine..

Reading back through all this drivel, I see testimonials that the 125 grain bullet in an 06 expanded violently.....well....DUH. :rolleyes: I think the OP asked about the 150 grain BT specifically in .308 and .30-30? That's my experience with BT right there with the exception that the .30-30 has a 12" barrel, nail on the head. I have shot it in no other calibers and in no other weights.

[wyohome]

Where the b-tip works it works well. But where it doesn't it REALLY doesn't

You might be right, I haven't had a problem with them in the 8 or 10 years that I have been using them. That doesn't mean that I won't. I am not an advocate for any particular thing and will sure report any failures that I encounter. I shot a doe this year at 275 yards. She was facing me, I hit her in the chest and the bullet was in the backstrap about as far as her kidneys.

[MCgunner]

That doesn't mean that I won't. I am not an advocate for any particular thing and will sure report any failures that I encounter.

Yeah, me, too, except in the case of the .257 Roberts which is old and past its prime much as with its owner and still kills 'em as dead as a 300 Weatherby.:neener:

I read all this about the BT before I tried it in .308. When I got the rifle, used, it had a recipe in it with a group. WW 748 and the 150BT. I loaded that up and by golly my groups were 3/4" too, so that's why I started hunting with it. I loaded a 140 Barnes X up and got 1" 100 yard groups, too, and used it on hogs for a while thinkin' that BT wasn't up to hogs. Such is not the case, however, as I've found out, though the largest I've taken with it was about 220 on the hoof (measured on a bathroom scale, but good nuf for gubment work).

I was MORE worried about the bullet expanding at .30-30 pistol velocities. Fartherest shot I've made was at about 90 yards with it, worked fine that time. I've only got 5 kills in the caliber with it, had two go about 25 yards with a lung shot, rest either DRT or D almost RT. It's quite accurate. I really prefer the 150 grain weight, don't want to go to 125 grain weight on deer and especially hogs even at .30-30 velocities.

[wyohome]

WW 748 and the 150BT

That is what I use as well, 49.5 Gr

[MCgunner]

Awe, dang, you made me look it up. I'm a little lighter, 48.5 grains. The accuracy is excellent, though, and if it ain't broke.....:D

[scythefwd]

MCgunner, actually, I am asking about the 150gr BT and what appears to be the 168 gr CT (which has no max speed recommendation).

How well do the partitions work for the .30-30 and the .308. How much change in POI is there from the BT's that we have been discussing for the same bullet weight?

[Todd1700]

Seems like a lot of people acting expert than don't even shoot the bullet, let alone having tested it on game.

I've killed deer with them and seen many more killed with them. I have also seen bad experiences with them. When all goes well they can give you some of the quickest dropped right there kills you have ever seen. They look pretty too. But when it goes bad with them, it goes really bad. I bet 75 percent of the hit and lost deer stories I have had first hand experience with over the last 6 years have involved a friend or family member using a ballistic tip. Most have thankfully stopped using them. It only takes one time losing a good buck because of them to see the light.

They are basically just a hollow point with a plastic nipple inserted in the hole to increase the ballistic co-efficient. Hollow points are a common feature on pistol bullets. Know why? To get those bullets to expand even at slow pistol cartridge velocities. Put a hollow point on a soft lead projectile and accelerate it to high power rifle velocities and you get a lot of expansion. Sometimes too much.

As for what Nosler says about them, well what do you expect them to say? "Even at standard rifle velocities these things might come apart like a cardboard box in the rain" LOL! No company is gonna poor mouth their own product. But I have seen them fragment all to hell on a deer out of a 30-06 with a MV of 2800 fps on shots less than 100 yards. And the problem only gets worse at 7mm mag and 300 mag velocities.

They are a great varmint round however. But then I guess that would be because that's what they were designed to be in the first place.

[hillbillydelux]

I have already given my opinion but to elaborate a little. I have been using 150 grain ballistic tips in 30-06 for quite some time. With a 150 grain bullet there really is no difference between .30-06 or .308. I imagine I have shot close to 40 deer with that load from doe to some pretty decent bucks, from 50 yards to aroun 300 yds. I have never lost a deer and in fact most dropped in there tracks. I have shot some where the bullet did ruin alot of meat but it was because I hit them in the shoulder. In fact I shot a doe in the shoulder and it damn near tore her front leg off but at least part of the bullet continued into the chest and did its job. I had a nice buck run about 200 yards after being shot. I thought I made a bad shot or the bullet didnt perform but after gutting I found the top of his heart was blown off. I have had most bullets pass thru but some stop in the deer. I have never seen one explode or blow into tiny pieces or act even remotly like a varmint bullet. Not one has failed to do its job even if I didnt make a perfect shot. I agree there are stronger bullets out there but we are talking about little white tail deer.:D
I am not saying they cant fail or havnt been responsible for lost deer but I would say most deer lost while using ballistic tips were due to poor shot placement and not a failure of the bullet.

[Skoghund]

When i lived in England i was shooting 50+ deer a year. England has nearly all year round season on deer and no limit and i had a lot of very good hunting ground. Plus i helped with a cull of fallow deer in a deer park. From the first time they were introduced till 2003 i used 165grn NDT in my .308. I never found an problem useing them. Shoot them in the chest or in the case of shooting park deer all shots in the neck a great bullet.
Here in Sweden i use only Norma Oryx but then we have moose and boar a bit to tough for the NBT.

[hardluk1]

Killed a lot of deer with a NBT in 125gr 308 at 3000fsp and a early on with a 140gr 7mm rem mag. I like the round very much, just place your bullets in the heart/lung area and the deer will turn off at the impact. I have seen one case of liquid deer but with a 7stw and the shoot was a bit far back. I now shot the hornady sst factory loads in the 7mm but only because it shoots them so very well at long distance. The newer BT's are tougher than they use to be also. For deer both rounds are highly disruptive to tissue but do as intended. Never had to hunt a deer when shot.