You can dump sand in the AK and it will still run


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RockyMtnTactical
January 6, 2010, 04:20 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo5WhVvtYak

Or so they say...

Anyone actually done this kind of test with their AK? Or do we just believe everything we read on the internet?

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Wanta B
January 6, 2010, 05:08 PM
Outstanding!!

I love torture tests!!

Yes I have several times...Now to kick back and watch the fun...;):D

CoRoMo
January 6, 2010, 05:19 PM
Hmmm. I say there had to have been a bit of camera tricks to that video because the AK malfunctioned after getting sprinkled with sand.

Either that, or the myth is busted.:eek:

nalioth
January 6, 2010, 05:23 PM
They used to demonstrate how resilient the AK is in the service (over in the middle east).

When I was over there, they'd take the top cover off and drizzle sand in it while firing, with nary a hiccup . .

AK reliability is not a myth.

RockyMtnTactical
January 6, 2010, 05:38 PM
AK reliability is not a myth.

AK reliability is highly exaggerated, as are many things on gun boards. This video clearly demonstrates that reality is not the exact same as gun board talk...

Wanta B
January 6, 2010, 05:39 PM
More of a dust thing in that manner...drizzling. While the weapon is firing it vibrates the sand out the big holes around the trigger guard and magazine...big holes a plus here not a negetive...Still VERY impressive. And no,the AK's reliability is not mythical but not infallible.:)

C-grunt
January 6, 2010, 05:51 PM
The Ak is a very reliable weapon but it still needs to be maintained. Most of these tests guys use just sand. These guys in the video used dirt with rocks and twigs and all the normal stuff thats on the ground.

Ive seen plenty of AK47s malfunction in Iraq with the Iraqi Army unit we were with. The guns were just old and not taken care of.

ccsniper
January 6, 2010, 05:54 PM
Hmmm. I say there had to have been a bit camera tricks to that video because the AK malfunctioned after getting sprinkled with sand.

Either that, or the myth is busted

7.62x39 is tapered, so is the 5.45x39. The .223/5.56x45 is straight walled so therefore the sand would cause a lot more friction vs the other two cartridges.

AK reliability is highly exaggerated, as are many things on gun boards. This video clearly demonstrates that reality is not the exact same as gun board talk...


I don't think so, I have personally seen an AK buried in mud, sand and snow and it still functioned. But that AK was in 7.62x39 not .223/5.56x45

John Parker
January 6, 2010, 05:56 PM
I buried mine in sand while deployed and it worked just fine.

ccsniper
January 6, 2010, 05:59 PM
On the other hand, do that to a AR and see what happens.

ccsniper
January 6, 2010, 06:01 PM
Here is another torture vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FXK-VRkqqM&feature=related

Wanta B
January 6, 2010, 06:07 PM
Ah... proper clearance of weapon.Now do that under fire!

This will go on and on and on and...Thing is that when the AK buggers up it is easier to deal with and clear.

Afy
January 6, 2010, 06:18 PM
Its not just the AK... the Vz's fare better. They even get off shots when not put together correctly, though you might get chewed up brass and the odd stove pipe.

THE DARK KNIGHT
January 6, 2010, 06:19 PM
On the other hand, do that to a AR and see what happens

I bet the AR jams on the 4th grain of sand.

THE DARK KNIGHT
January 6, 2010, 06:22 PM
AK reliability is highly exaggerated, as are many things on gun boards. This video clearly demonstrates that reality is not the exact same as gun board talk...

The test is essentially void anyway due to dumb circumstances. It's a .223 AK. Barely any case taper. Let them try a 5.45 or 7.62x39 and see if it jams first round.

LEVRLOVR
January 6, 2010, 06:24 PM
OOPSSS!

That's not supposed to happen.

1KPerDay
January 6, 2010, 06:37 PM
How is a tapered round going to prevent crud getting in the fire control group?

Wanta B
January 6, 2010, 06:38 PM
Taper is good,very good...dust,powder residue,dirty mags/ammoe,ice,hot loads,heat,etc. but in this case the "crud" is at the rear of the weapon not the fore.

See also post #20.

rcmodel
January 6, 2010, 06:52 PM
Who would dump sand in his rifle in the first place?

We managed to fight WWII in North Africa with M1 Garands.
And the Germans didn't exactly give up and go home because their MP40's and MP44's didn't work in the sand either.

rc

dscottw88
January 6, 2010, 07:17 PM
I don't think so, I have personally seen an AK buried in mud, sand and snow and it still functioned. But that AK was in 7.62x39 not .223/5.56x45

The malfunctions experienced in this test don't have much to do with the cartridge. The Stoppages were related to debris located in the fire control group.

E304life
January 6, 2010, 07:25 PM
Ahh, I remember the first time I saw this video and how it turned my world upside down. The AK is not the infallible rifle that I thought it was. It was not designed to be used as a wheelbarrow and neither is any other rifle (that i know of), it just happens to work in the dirt better than a lot of rifles, but you cant rely on any rifle to work perfectly when you treat it this way. The taper of 7.62x39 wouldn't help much in this situation. The AK's weakness is the FCG's exposure to debris when the safety is off just as the AR's is reliance on lube. NO rifle is infallible! The operator can always mess it up somehow!

Erik M
January 6, 2010, 07:26 PM
I buried mine in sand while deployed and it worked just fine.
Just out of curiosity what branch of service/company issued you an AK47?

RockyMtnTactical
January 6, 2010, 07:31 PM
On the other hand, do that to a AR and see what happens.

They did, and it faired much better under similar cricumstances. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8SSQ_wIG4o&feature=related

Basically, the AK shows it has a design flaw in that when the safety is off, the weapon has a huge hole that allows stuff to get into it.

7.62x39 is tapered, so is the 5.45x39. The .223/5.56x45 is straight walled so therefore the sand would cause a lot more friction vs the other two cartridges.


I agree that the extreme taper of the 7.62x39 is a slight reliability advantage, but as another poster noted in this thread, "How is a tapered round going to prevent crud getting in the fire control group?"

Ahh, I remember the first time I saw this video and how it turned my world upside down. The AK is not the infallible rifle that I thought it was. It was not designed to be used as a wheelbarrow and neither is any other rifle (that i know of), it just happens to work in the dirt better than a lot of rifles, but you cant rely on any rifle to work perfectly when you treat it this way. The taper of 7.62x39 wouldn't help much in this situation. The AK's weakness is the FCG's exposure to debris when the safety is off just as the AR's is reliance on lube. NO rifle is infallible! The operator can always mess it up somehow!

Exactly.

I did not post this as an attack on the AK design. I like it, but the degree of reliability people seem to think it is capable of has gone too far. Time to come back down to earth.

Wanta B
January 6, 2010, 07:37 PM
With modern coatings,I say,the weakness in the M16 is the DI and open rear charging handle.Tho' with an op-rod system both issues are solved...rear charge is still a bit ackward but hey it is ambidextrous and non-reciprocating.

dscottw88
January 6, 2010, 07:42 PM
For anyone who would like to see the same test conducted with a 5.45 Bulgarian instead of the .223:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRRUuXyspT0&feature=related

Shadow Man
January 6, 2010, 07:47 PM
Just out of curiosity what branch of service/company issued you an AK47?


I was "issued" an AK while doing undercover work, PSD's, training with the ISF, anything where it was critical that I blended in or looked like an Iraqi. Some units also have more leinancy as to the weapons their operators can carry; in mine, if you could qualify with it, and there was ammunition for it, you could carry it (to some extent).

Boris Barowski
January 6, 2010, 07:52 PM
would have worked better when put in the sand with the safety on. the safety covers the gap behind the bolt. but still... :)

Wanta B
January 6, 2010, 07:55 PM
Shadowman---Your location is suspiciously close to mine...;):evil::D

RockyMtnTactical
January 6, 2010, 07:55 PM
Yeah, but if the safety was on, people would still say, "You can dump sand in the AK and it will still run"... Plus, it shows a specific weakness/flaw in the AK design.

Wanta B
January 6, 2010, 07:56 PM
With the safety on ya' can't fire too well.;) Safety off,on the move against enemy possition,BANG!,BANG!,BANG!,hit the deck(dirt)--that means rifle too...The fit has just hit the shan,gentalmen.BANG!,BANG!,BANG!...and your weapon is full of fit!!

I love the Kalashnikov but it has it's fallings.Most can be overcome with relitively simple modifications...EXCEPT the LACK of last shot hold open.

Runningman
January 6, 2010, 08:02 PM
7.62x39 is tapered, so is the 5.45x39. The .223/5.56x45 is straight walled Huh? Suggest you look at a cartridge drawing or get a mike and measure the body taper in the 5.56 for yourself. Because the 5.56 does have body taper just not as pronounced as the 7.62x39.

mljdeckard
January 6, 2010, 08:02 PM
Yes, you can do it. Yes, I have done it. BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER. No matter what rifle I am using in combat, I am going to do the best I can to keep it clean in the first place and clean it regularly.

If I ever buy another AK, I don't plan on dumping handfuls of sand into it.

Shadow Man
January 6, 2010, 08:02 PM
Wanta B...so it is :cool:

Closer than you may imagine :evil:

RockyMtnTactical
January 6, 2010, 08:06 PM
For anyone who would like to see the same test conducted with a 5.45 Bulgarian instead of the .223:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRRUuXyspT0&feature=related

Wow, that one didn't like this test either. Strange that the only 2 unreliable AK's both have their own youtube videos. Surely the rest are as stone cold reliable as people like to believe they are though.

(Can you sense the sarcasm?)

Wanta B
January 6, 2010, 08:06 PM
Shadowman---ROTFLMAO!!! EXCELLENT!!:D:evil:---Thank you for the levity.

Shadow Man
January 6, 2010, 08:08 PM
Maybe I should change my location to: "Anywhere my boots take me" eh?

You are most welcome for the levity :D

Wanta B
January 6, 2010, 08:12 PM
Mine used to read "in my boots",then "where my boots are"...

Anyhow back to OP topic.:)

Shadow Man
January 6, 2010, 08:14 PM
Mine used to read "in my boots",then "where my boots are"...

Sweet Jesus...that provided me with a good laugh, only because it's so true...

You're right though: Sorry for the interruption folks, we will now return you to your originally scheduled programming.

Hatterasguy
January 6, 2010, 08:25 PM
The AK's a good design, I wonder how they do on over the beach tests?

HK made a good video of this showing an M4 blowing apart.:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MW9lf3pfdGw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGwkHktkTxU&feature=related
The 416 did well, which is should considering it's priced like its forged from unicorn bone.:rolleyes:

Avenger29
January 6, 2010, 08:31 PM
7.62x39 is tapered, so is the 5.45x39. The .223/5.56x45 is straight walled so therefore the sand would cause a lot more friction vs the other two cartridges.

What is that have to do with this test?

And, by the way, if you answer "well, sand in the chamber...", the truth is sand in the chamber will stop any weapon, AR, AK, or whatever. And the lack of pronounced taper doesn't seem to be an issue with my AR, which runs just fine on steel cased ammunition...

Wanta B
January 6, 2010, 08:34 PM
Great weapon but..."Unicorn bone." Truely?!:eek:That explains everything!;)

Now that more and more U.S.A. made op-rod systems,by U.S.A. venders are coming to the fore...I think HK has some STEAP competition rolling on them.

Wanta B
January 6, 2010, 08:39 PM
Another quick interjection here...DI still works for lots of folks...just not me, for reasons I have hit on previously.

CZ223
January 6, 2010, 08:39 PM
the same torture test performed on the AR? The AR ran and ran and ran. Then they ran it over and it continued to run. But there is something to be said for the way they performed the test. With the action closed and dust cover open the AR lets very little sand into the action. The ak on the other hand has large open spaces under the dust cover which permits large amounts of sand into the trigger group. If you take a nose dive with with the action closed it would appear that the AR has a much better chance of functioning. However, not unlike the venerable 45, the AK has more slop and is likely less prone to jambing in say a sandstorm while firing the rifle. I own both platforms and they both have their advantages and disadvantages.

Wanta B
January 6, 2010, 08:44 PM
CZ223---Could not agree more.That sloppy old AK and 1911 flat rip along because of the lose tolerances...The tighter they are the more acurate,at the expense of reliability.A bit of a trade-off.And not always ture but often is.

Wanta B
January 6, 2010, 08:47 PM
CZ223---I also have to agree with you on the "AR" running on and on...However,as I stated earlier,when it jambs it is MUCH harder and time consuming to clear.Again,typicaly.

Hatterasguy
January 6, 2010, 08:48 PM
Great weapon but..."Unicorn bone." Truely?!:eek:That explains everything!;)

Now that more and more U.S.A. made op-rod systems,by U.S.A. venders are coming to the fore...I think HK has some STEAP competition rolling on them.
Yeah I would buy an LWRC or Ruger before one.

RoostRider
January 6, 2010, 09:08 PM
I bet the AR jams on the 4th grain of sand.
On the other hand, do that to a AR and see what happens.
Well, than again.... maybe not....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8SSQ_wIG4o&feature=related

I buried mine in sand while deployed and it worked just fine.

Yep... and they buried this one and it worked like crap.... what does that tell you?... It tells me it's a crap shoot....

I'm not saying the AR is better than the AK.... or the AK is better than the AR... what I am saying is if you think you can rely on either of those rifles after being buried in the dirt, think again.... maybe yes, maybe no....

I think RC covered it best..... don't bury your rifle in dirt and don't worry about it....

RockyMtnTactical
January 6, 2010, 09:18 PM
Yep... and they buried this one and it worked like crap.... what does that tell you?... It tells me it's a crap shoot....

It tells me that his safety was on. ;)

batman
January 6, 2010, 10:31 PM
I love how the OP posts a SINGLE video and considers it enough to call the AK's legendary reliability a myth. Truly funny.

Walkalong
January 6, 2010, 10:32 PM
My slingshot can pass that test. :neener:

ccsniper
January 6, 2010, 10:41 PM
Alright, I am going to make like a anti and

SCREAM EVERYTHING IN TYPE LOUD ENOUGH YOU CAN'T EVEN GET YOUR POINT ACROSS!!! THE AK IS THE BEST GUN EVER!!! AHHHHH!!!!! YOU CAN'T SAY OTHERWISE!!! AAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!! THIS IS ME NOT LISTENING TO YOUR UNBELIEF IN MY WEAPON SYSTEM!!!!!! AAAHHH!!!!!!

Disclaimer: I am not an anti but sometimes you got to hand it to them, their way of arguing does sometimes work.

Avenger29
January 6, 2010, 10:49 PM
I love how the OP posts a SINGLE video and considers it enough to call the AK's legendary reliability a myth. Truly funny.

I didn't see where the OP called the AK's "legendary reliability" a "myth".

People are, however, pointing out that the AK isn't invincible and infallible as often portrayed.

In a way, however, you could say the AK's "legendary reliability" is a myth, for the "legendary reliability" often refers to the saying that "the AK will never jam". That characterization should be sent to the same trashcan that the myths of "racking a pump shotgun will always scare away an intruder" and "the .45 will knock a man back five feet and instantly kill him with one hit" reside in.

JohnKSa
January 6, 2010, 11:17 PM
With the action closed and dust cover open the AR lets very little sand into the action.Good catch. I had missed the fact that he always dropped the bolt each time before he laid the rifle down and applied the dirt.

RockyMtnTactical
January 6, 2010, 11:32 PM
I love how the OP posts a SINGLE video and considers it enough to call the AK's legendary reliability a myth. Truly funny.

Maybe you should go to the Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Don't Read Very Good.

All I said was that the AK reliability has been exaggerated by many people on gun boards who do more talking than shooting.

THE DARK KNIGHT
January 7, 2010, 12:02 AM
All I said was that the AK reliability has been exaggerated by many people on gun boards who do more talking than shooting.

The same can be said of virtually anything posted on a gun board :D

black_powder_Rob
January 7, 2010, 12:11 AM
hmm this one shows the a different story.;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QbZWg4lRkg&NR=1&feature=fvwp

RockyMtnTactical
January 7, 2010, 12:30 AM
The same can be said of virtually anything posted on a gun board

That is exactly right. It is important to be aware of that. A lot of new guys get on the internet and read time and time again, "You can pour sand into the action of an AK, run it over with a truck, throw it out of an airplane, freeze it over night, and soak it in salt water and it will run without a hitch". If only that were true.

Justin
January 7, 2010, 12:40 AM
I love how the OP posts a SINGLE video and considers it enough to call the AK's legendary reliability a myth. Truly funny.

AK's are totally reliable! They never malfunction! EVER! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZAHAr-GmJg)

Shadow Man
January 7, 2010, 11:19 AM
That video was obviously a fake Justin! :rolleyes:

Tirod
January 7, 2010, 11:54 AM
You can dump sand in the HK and it will still run

Fixed it.

I bought an HK91 in the early '70's precisely because you could pour a handful of gravel into the open chamber and then 1) release the bolt 2) chamber and fire the rifle 3) watch gravel get ejected with the casings and drift out of the trigger group.

It never had a problem with crud buildup in the operating system and I ran it dry for years. Roller locks seem to work ok that way. It also shot well enough I had to admit it was operator error, not the rifle. Unlike AK shooters who can blame third world quality standards and cheap milsurp ammo all day.

The charging handle wasn't connected to the bolt, either, and it worked just fine, as did my issued M16's for 22 years in the Reserves.

The problem with the legend of AK invincibility is that it's believed in inverse proportion to the actual amount of military experience someone has served.

Meaning, only the wannabes and newbs pass that disinformation along. 99 out of 100 don't bother to serve our country these days.

But, an American Soldier makes it up worldwide equipped with an M16 or M4, and the number of AK's we take from deceased opponents far outnumber the ones we lose.

Why do so many ignore that obvious fact?

The AK is a loser's gun. Carry one and you are just part of a target rich environment.

Shadow Man
January 7, 2010, 11:59 AM
Carry one and you are just part of a target rich environment.

Good to know. :rolleyes:

What I want to know is why so many ignore the obvious fact that the opponenets we fight today have no concept of firearms training like we do...so of course they are less effective. An AK in a properly trained soldier's hands is a very deadly weapon indeed, internet hype about reliability aside. Why this is so oft overlooked astounds me :banghead:

desidog
January 7, 2010, 12:25 PM
why so many ignore the obvious fact that the opponents we fight today have no concept of firearms training like we do..

Cause it makes us sound better in the press to kill "enemy combatants" rather than "an twelve year old with an AK he couldn't shoulder, let alone clean"

If the AK-toter who just hit the dirt doesn't know how to remove the dust-cover to clear the FCG....

OhioChief
January 7, 2010, 12:27 PM
I love that show Untimate Warriars. They did a show where one group's primary weapon was the AK, the other was the M16. And they have experts from each group performing the tests. At least in that show, they dumped a cup of sand on the AK and it shot fine. Not so for the M16. However.... in every other trial they put both guns through, the M16 prevailed. Or it's all a bunch of BS, but I enjoyed watching it, and it tested what people have said for years. Still not giving up my AR's!!!!

USMC8541
January 7, 2010, 12:41 PM
While personnel experiences are not truly scientific, here's mine.In April of 2003 I was sent to Iraq armed with an M9 beretta, soon found myself in need of more effective fire power So I acquired an AK-47 from a gentleman who had no use for it anymore, ammo was available by the storeroom, much more so than 223 ammo which had to be flown in. I loved that rifle as it performed flawlessly, I shot it often, defended myself and shot dozens of gazelles and feral dogs with it,I was sorry to have to turn it in to be destroyed when I left the war zone. M16 was OK but needed daily maintenance and cleaning, Military PR crap don't tell you that the M16 Jams often.In the war you dont always have time to clean weapons and shine your boots like the career brown nosers in the rear. Hope this helps

Wanta B
January 7, 2010, 12:51 PM
Do NOT,repeat,DO NOT underestimate the weapons capabilities in the hands of a professional trained to use it properly!

Face it,most of the people using the AK today are poorly trained,poorly funded and poorly equipped.In the hands of a professional...Keep a healthy respect for it. It can and will kill you weather you like the weapon or not!
It has proven effective time and time again. like it or not, love it or hate it.

How many former Eastern Block professionals have any of us encountered?!Don't fool yourselves.They are stait up bad***.

SlamFire1
January 7, 2010, 01:08 PM
While personnel experiences are not truly scientific, here's mine.In April of 2003 I was sent to Iraq armed with an M9 beretta, soon found myself in need of more effective fire power So I acquired an AK-47 from a gentleman who had no use for it anymore, ammo was available by the storeroom, much more so than 223 ammo which had to be flown in. I loved that rifle as it performed flawlessly, I shot it often, defended myself and shot dozens of gazelles and feral dogs with it,I was sorry to have to turn it in to be destroyed when I left the war zone. M16 was OK but needed daily maintenance and cleaning, Military PR crap don't tell you that the M16 Jams often.In the war you dont always have time to clean weapons and shine your boots like the career brown nosers in the rear. Hope this helps


I was squadded with a Marine Reservist who was first wave into Iraq. He personally poured sand into an AK. He took the top cover off and poured sand while firing. He expressed surprise and frustration in the difference in sand sensitivity between the M16 and the AK. The AK is far less dirt sensitive. While he was cleaning his M16 three times a day to avoid malfunctions.

A work bud, back in the early 70’s he was going through Navy boot camp. The instructors had a AK and a M16. This was a weapon confidence building exercise, to show the boots that the American M16 was a better weapon than that crappy Commie rifle. The instructors poured sand into the AK and it kept on functioning. But less than a teaspoon jammed the M16.

The point made was that the American M16 was a much more “precise” weapon than that loose rattle trap of an AK, and therefore better. Because we all like precision built weapons. :)

It had never occurred, in the twenty years hence, what that confidence building exercise proved, was that the M16 was a less reliable weapon than the AK, and that precision does not mean a thing if your weapon is jammed. :mad:

USMC8541
January 7, 2010, 01:51 PM
I'm not saying the M16 is a bad weapon.In 1981 I scored a 240 out of 250 with a Vietnam era M16 in Marine Corps boot camp on Pre Qual day, on qual day it rained and I shot a 221 to make expert, I was really impressed with the M16 then.I will say the M16 is one of the most accurate semi auto rifles out there, much more so than an AK.
I was trained in the Infantry as an 0311 and Marine Scout Sniper by NCO,s who were Vietnam war veterans. At that young age I actively sought there opinions.Bottom line was they said they said they would have rather had something like the AK47 for jungle fighting. They said when shooting ball ammo it usually took 3 shots to drop charlie, where an AK47 could do it with 1 shot. Again these are just opinions but they were backed up with real world experiences that you will not find on Utube, To me the real advantage to the M16 was its light weight,since the Infantryman is an overloaded beast of burden. the tragedy was in when they gave me the heavy barreled version in 1984 I would have rather they just went to the M14 if I have to carry a heavy weapon all day.I guess for Police the M16 might be better than the AK. You just have to pick your weapon and get as good as you can with it. Vince

AZAviator
January 7, 2010, 04:18 PM
This video got shot to pieces by rifleman channel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXgaJV05_9g) They leave the dust cover open so all the dirt falls into the receiver. Of course it wont work. Its like opening the bolt on an AR-15 and dumping dirt into there, forget about it.

AK 47s are very durable.

RockyMtnTactical
January 7, 2010, 05:33 PM
What I want to know is why so many ignore the obvious fact that the opponenets we fight today have no concept of firearms training like we do...so of course they are less effective. An AK in a properly trained soldier's hands is a very deadly weapon indeed, internet hype about reliability aside. Why this is so oft overlooked astounds me

I don't think many people here would argue that fact.

This video got shot to pieces by rifleman channel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXgaJV05_9g) They leave the dust cover open so all the dirt falls into the receiver. Of course it wont work. Its like opening the bolt on an AR-15 and dumping dirt into there, forget about it.

It's a design flaw on the AK. Plus, my point in posting this thread was specifically because I have heard people claim "you can dump sand in the AK and it will still run" or something similar so often on message boards. This shoots that "myth" to pieces and proves it is simply wrong. Not that the AK isn't reliable.

Yes, the AK is reliable, but let's not exaggerate so much like people tend to do on message boards and in gun shops. Internet myth, meet reality.

my762buzz
January 7, 2010, 06:27 PM
I don't think many people here would argue that fact.



It's a design flaw on the AK. Plus, my point in posting this thread was specifically because I have heard people claim "you can dump sand in the AK and it will still run" or something similar so often on message boards. This shoots that "myth" to pieces and proves it is simply wrong. Not that the AK isn't reliable.

Yes, the AK is reliable, but let's not exaggerate so much like people tend to do on message boards and in gun shops. Internet myth, meet reality.
I don't think shoveling little rocks and sand into the ak action until its nearly full was a design consideration. And by the same token, I seriously doubt E. Stoner considered the possiblity of middle eastern desert silt clogging his design without having to shovel any onto the rifle to literally bury it.

BBQLS1
January 7, 2010, 06:31 PM
I store my AK47 in a sand box.

my762buzz
January 7, 2010, 06:39 PM
The AK is a loser's gun. Carry one and you are just part of a target rich environment.

Sounds like a threat. That would be trolling.

CoRoMo
January 7, 2010, 06:40 PM
...the OP posts a SINGLE video and considers it enough to call the AK's legendary reliability a myth.

What thread were YOU reading? I was the first poster to use the word, while my tongue was firmly planted in my cheek. The OP has proven his knowledge many times over, and he's not calling the AK unreliable.

iyaoyas98
January 7, 2010, 07:05 PM
:rolleyes: The whole F'n thread. :rolleyes:

RockyMtnTactical
January 7, 2010, 07:49 PM
I don't think shoveling little rocks and sand into the ak action until its nearly full was a design consideration.

Then maybe people should stop saying things like this:

You can dump sand in the AK and it will still run.

Just trying to bring some truth to those who are perpetuating this lie all over the internet.

That's all this is about, clearing up some exaggerations about the AK. It's a good, reliable gun. It has proven that over the course of it's existence.

I like the AK design.

John Parker
January 7, 2010, 08:05 PM
Just out of curiosity what branch of service/company issued you an AK47?

The same one that issues me orders saying "...due to unique mission requirements, civilian clothing is mandatory and relaxed grooming standards are authorized."


I didn't always carry it, but it worked.

SharpsDressedMan
January 7, 2010, 08:08 PM
I advocate carrying that which makes you warm and fuzzy, if the Gods allow (that would include those in the chain of commands that THINK they are God, too.) Obviously, there are many gun handlers here, professional and recreational, that have strong feelings about his or her favorites. I have had formal and recreational experience with the M16, AK, HK, and lots of other semi auto rifles, but recently came to the decision that I could inflict the the most "effective defense" for the least amount of money, by moving to the AK patform. My weapons are simple; they don't have too many rails or doo-dads. Lean and mean. I can hump them further without an extra 4 pounds of stuff hanging on them, or carry four more pounds of ammo. O.K, they might make me look more like a "bad guy" to the uninformed, but more often than not, you won't see me standing in the open to be looked upon, or you won't even know that I have a weapon. Want to blend in? Low profile isn't standing in the open with an AK or ANY weapon. I like the shadows (ShadowMan, is that where you get your name?). Folks, it ain't the weapons that make the big diference; it's the skill, the attitude, the fortitude, and the raw desire to win or stay alive.

SharpsDressedMan
January 7, 2010, 08:10 PM
John Parker, good thing you weren't blond haired.:D

ranger335v
January 7, 2010, 08:10 PM
"You can dump sand in the AK and it will still run"

Don't hurt the accuracy neither. ???

chevyforlife21
January 7, 2010, 08:12 PM
why would you wanna try that

USMC8541
January 7, 2010, 08:25 PM
Well said!, I don't think anyone here wants to dump sand in their weapon. In Iraq the sand was not like any desert sand I had seen before, it had the consistency of talcum powder, and it caused intense wear in everything it got into with moving parts. A couple of days in Iraq in 120 degree heat man and rifle are like a suger cookie. My point is this, All things being equal the AK has a much better chance of firing when the trigger is pulled than the M16, in a hostile environment

RockyMtnTactical
January 7, 2010, 08:41 PM
Folks, it ain't the weapons that make the big diference; it's the skill, the attitude, the fortitude, and the raw desire to win or stay alive.

Words to live by.

my762buzz
January 7, 2010, 08:44 PM
Then maybe people should stop saying things like this:



Just trying to bring some truth to those who are perpetuating this lie all over the internet.

That's all this is about, clearing up some exaggerations about the AK. It's a good, reliable gun. It has proven that over the course of it's existence.

I like the AK design.
The only real unanswered detail is exactly how much sand.
A teaspoon, a table spoon, ....a cup load.

Ohio Gun Guy
January 7, 2010, 08:47 PM
I've printed your picture and hung it in my basement









The mice are fleeing my house for the neighbors :evil:


Thanks for what your doing!

ccsniper
January 7, 2010, 09:00 PM
What is that food your eating John Parker?

John Parker
January 7, 2010, 09:23 PM
Pilau. There was kabob on the plate as well, but my partner and I had already devoured it so we just had vegetables left.

Hammerhead6814
January 7, 2010, 10:13 PM
Interesting observation:

All you have to do to prevent that those chunks from getting in is safety the weapon. Takes all of a half a second.

I'm also wondering why they didn't open a hole in the AR when testing? Notice the whole rifle is closed up. All they had to do to clear those jams was release the magazine and shake. Instead they waited until after the weapon failed.

They made sure the AR had ideal conditions while they left the AK exposed. Lets see them do the same test but leave the bolt back on the AR. That way each has an open hole, no playing favorites.

RockyMtnTactical
January 7, 2010, 10:36 PM
Interesting observation:

All you have to do to prevent that those chunks from getting in is safety the weapon. Takes all of a half a second.

I'm also wondering why they didn't open a hole in the AR when testing? Notice the whole rifle is closed up. All they had to do to clear those jams was release the magazine and shake. Instead they waited until after the weapon failed.

They made sure the AR had ideal conditions while they left the AK exposed. Lets see them do the same test but leave the bolt back on the AR. That way each has an open hole, no playing favorites.

You misunderstood the purpose of this thread. It is not to prove that the AK is not as reliable as the AR15. Not at all.

It is really to debunk the myth that you can dump sand in the AK and that it will keep on running. Something that people often parrot because they heard it somewhere else on the internet.

As for them not opening the AR15 up, the tests were pretty much even. The bolt was not held back on these AK's either. With the safety off, the AK has a design flaw, the AR15 does not have a huge gap in the receiver when the safety is off. It's not a huge flaw, unless you are burying your AK in dirt, which is kind of unrealistic, but like I said, I posted this to debunk the myth I mentioned above.

ccsniper
January 7, 2010, 10:50 PM
Pilau. There was kabob on the plate as well, but my partner and I had already devoured it so we just had vegetables left.

I love any food from the mideast. Them guys should just stick to cooking.

Okay back to the OP

SharpsDressedMan
January 7, 2010, 10:56 PM
I was more impressed with the other video where the guy kept flinging the rifle.......

Tirod
January 7, 2010, 11:14 PM
An AK in a properly trained soldier's hands is a very deadly weapon indeed, internet hype about reliability aside. Why this is so oft overlooked astounds me

Any weapon in the hands of a properly trained soldier will be deadly. What astounds me is that some believe soldiers issued AK's are properly trained. It is very much the exception. I do believe ALL soldiers are taught to keep the weapon clean and not pour dirt in it. Which makes the contention that it can work that way suspect. NO one does it deliberately in combat.

Study the mandatory service of the average Soviet soldier and you quickly discover the behind the scenes reality. Most can't keep their newly issued uniforms because the higher ranked NCO's take them away. Training is largely an exercise in obedience, not tactics, and weapons qualification does not possibly equal ours - which I will readily admit is inadequate.

The average accuracy of the AK is about half of ours with it's issued ammunition, 4 MOA to the mispec M4's 2 MOA. Our live fire refresher training is programmed to maintain skills, their's is part of the annual photo op of blonde haired blue eyed supermen jumping through flaming hoops. I don't dispute the AK is durable - but no one claims it's more accurate. It certain has no guarantee of precision. Our M4's do - or civil penalties will be imposed. You don't get to cheat the taxpayer in our country. There? It's a way of life.

And we aren't talking about well trained soldiers meeeting ours on the battlefield, becaused that hasn't been the track record. Most of the opponents with AK's have at best training in a foreign camp for terrorists, or what the local government has as a program. The reality is that we haven't faced too many capable and experienced soldiers among the terrorists in SW Asia. We certainly aren't facing any from the Communist Bloc, so their level of training has nothing to do with it.

It basically boils down that a squad of our combat soldiers equipped with M4's can and will defeat a squad of disaffected zealots and contraband farmers. It's why they use terrorist tactics, ambushes, and IED's. What part of their obvious admission to inferiority in training and choice of weapon is not clear?

I'll say it again, carry an AK and you're part of a target rich environment. Why? By most odds, you will be facing a superior opponent with better training, a superior firearm, and who is equally committed to using it. Like as not, a bandoleer of magazines will be the only body armor you have - and no hope of medevac.

Even worse, your opponent may look, act, and carry a weapon just like you - an AK. But he will be better with it. He's not a third world graduate of a dictator's house guard - he's an experienced and skilled American soldier.

It certainly is anyone's choice to buy and use any rifle they want; it is AMERICA, that's one thing we do here. However, perpetuating myth, misinformation, and unsubstantiated opinion leaves everyone open to another great AMERICAN tradition - having it pass scrutiny and the test for truth.

Truth is, the AK ain't all it's made out to be.

USMC8541
January 7, 2010, 11:52 PM
"You don't get to cheat the taxpayer in our country" Would you please tell this to Harry Reid, Thanks Vince

car15bill
January 7, 2010, 11:54 PM
how does that work, these two video's show these guns going through similar sand and gravel and the ar coming out much further ahead.

loose tolerances= more space for debris to fill. the AR runs after being buried because the bolt carrier is a close enough fit to the upper so that not much can get in even if the dust cover is down. If loose tolerances are good for reliability, than cars would still be running 5 to 1 compression and we would all be experts at reboring and re ringing engines. close tolerances ARE reliable.

perhaps the big reason for ak's being used is their being cheaper to purchase than ar style rifles?

Jaws
January 8, 2010, 12:07 AM
Tirod

You got a lot of things right about the poor conditions in wich ak-47 operates.
That's what makes me respect the AK even more.
Just surviving under those conditions: very poor or none existent training, lack of spare parts, maintenance, harsh environment, is a testament of it's reliability.

Jaws
January 8, 2010, 12:12 AM
perhaps the big reason for ak's being used is their being cheaper to purchase than ar style rifles?

That's only part of the story. They are simple guns. They are so easy to use that even apes can make them tick. This drastically cuts down in training costs. The ak will give even the novice a fighting chance until he is able to maintain his rifle right.

AZAviator
January 8, 2010, 12:35 AM
It's a design flaw on the AK. Plus, my point in posting this thread was specifically because I have heard people claim "you can dump sand in the AK and it will still run" or something similar so often on message boards. This shoots that "myth" to pieces and proves it is simply wrong. Not that the AK isn't reliable.

Maybe you didnt understand me, I know the AK can be broken - if you take a hammer to anything it will break. My point is that the dust cover basically prevents most dirt (especially the large pieces) from dumping into the receiver. This is a duh fix and when Scottsdale Rick (which is who made that bogus video in the first place) dumps dirt straight into the receiver its like opening the bolt on an AR and packing the receiver full of dirt (except the AR would be toast after trying to cycle).

Im relinking TheRiflemans rebuttle video again, maybe you should watch it again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXgaJV05_9g

JohnKSa
January 8, 2010, 12:52 AM
Might want to throw in a caution about the language on that video...

mshootnit
January 8, 2010, 12:56 AM
You can dump sand down someone's britches and they will still run, don't prove nuthin. Where they gonna go?

RockyMtnTactical
January 8, 2010, 12:58 AM
Maybe you didnt understand me, I know the AK can be broken - if you take a hammer to anything it will break. My point is that the dust cover basically prevents most dirt (especially the large pieces) from dumping into the receiver. This is a duh fix and when Scottsdale Rick (which is who made that bogus video in the first place) dumps dirt straight into the receiver its like opening the bolt on an AR and packing the receiver full of dirt (except the AR would be toast after trying to cycle).

From my perspective, all the original video does it put to bed an internet myth that has been repeated time and time again. If you already knew this, please disregard. It wasn't meant for you in that case.

Im relinking TheRiflemans rebuttle video again, maybe you should watch it again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXgaJV05_9g

He sounds like a whiner. :)

Avenger29
January 8, 2010, 01:02 AM
except the AR would be toast after trying to cycle)

Or...not- It wouldn't be "toast" i.e., ruined.

The AR isn't a flimsy plastic toy that jams up on 2 grains of sand...

E304life
January 8, 2010, 01:10 AM
I think there is a difference between a flaw in the design and a weakness. The AK was obviously designed to be carried around with the safety on. It's weakness is that when this tool is not used exactly as it was designed, it is susceptible to malfunction. TheRiflemans video is right that it is not the rifles fault, but it is still a weakness. Pretty much every machine has a weakness. I highly doubt there will ever be a perfect firearm.
Appreciate your tools for their strengths and acknowledge their weaknesses. Take care of them, be safe, and have fun.

RockyMtnTactical
January 8, 2010, 01:11 AM
I think there is a difference between a flaw in the design and a weakness.

I could concede that.


Appreciate your tools for their strengths and acknowledge their weaknesses. Take care of them, be safe, and have fun.

Agreed.

MountainBear
January 8, 2010, 01:12 AM
Here is another torture vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FXK-...eature=related

I know the guys who did this video. It real. The fact of the matter is that the AK is not as reliable as you would think, and the AR is not as unreliable as you'd think. Maintain your weapons is a hell of a lesson...

RP88
January 8, 2010, 01:22 AM
Don't hurt the accuracy neither. ???

lol, what accuracy? :evil:

(time for the "you can consistently keep an AK around 2" moa" thread now)

The lesson learned here is that you should always take care of your guns. Dirt is dirt. If it can eff up your $40,000 car, then your $400 AK is not going to appreciate it either.

The_Pretender
January 8, 2010, 01:24 AM
AK47's kill over 250,000 people every year worldwide.

I'd say they're accurate enough....

Hammerhead6814
January 8, 2010, 01:25 AM
When it all comes down to it, both the AK and AR are sub-standard.

Here is why. (http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinHumor.htm)

:D

Avenger29
January 8, 2010, 01:31 AM
AK47's kill over 250,000 people every year worldwide.

Yep, accurate aplenty for genocide.

Shadow Man
January 8, 2010, 01:40 AM
I like the shadows (ShadowMan, is that where you get your name?).

SharpsDressedMan

Yes sir; I had a nickname at work: Shadow. Came from my...well, the way I operated. Would have been my name here, too, but it was already taken.

Folks, it ain't the weapons that make the big diference; it's the skill, the attitude, the fortitude, and the raw desire to win or stay alive.

Sir, if you don't mind, I would like to add that to my signature.

The_Pretender
January 8, 2010, 01:40 AM
Yep, accurate aplenty for genocide.
It was designed to kill, and unfortunately does that rather well. Man is evil. Not the rifle.

FenderTK421
January 8, 2010, 01:42 AM
I've really never understood the AK Vs. AR argument. It seems like comparing apples and oranges. Despite being developed only a dozen or so years apart; the world's political climate was very different. The original purpose behind both even seems very different. The AK was an extremely durable light machine gun that could adequately serve as a rifle... The AR is a very effective rifle that can adequately serve as an LMG.

iiibdsiil
January 8, 2010, 01:49 AM
Okay, so the thing doesn't run when filled up with sand as the internet myth claims. I think most of those claims are repeated as half a joke anyways. The point is the thing is damn reliable some pretty bad conditions. Chevy guys don't rag on the Ford guys because the Chevy never breaks. It just breaks less.

I'm not even going to get started on the AR argument, as that's not what the thread was about. But I want to SO bad. Bwhahahaa!

RockyMtnTactical
January 8, 2010, 01:56 AM
I think most of those claims are repeated as half a joke anyways.

Unfortunately, some people believe them. Maybe part of it has to do with the fact that you cannot sense sarcasm through the internet the same way you can in real life. Either way, some people don't think it is a joke. I can assure you of that.

The_Pretender
January 8, 2010, 01:58 AM
Internet myth. lol....


This thing was around proving itself long before the internet was off and running.


If I made one video showing how inaccurate one specific AR was, would that be enough to say all of them are inaccurate? Or would we say I have one crappy rifle?

RockyMtnTactical
January 8, 2010, 02:02 AM
Do whatever you want. This isn't about the AR, but if making a video about the AR will help you feel as if the videos you watched on the AK never happened be my guest.

I have no false security or false ideas of what my AR15's will or wont do because I have put them through their paces and have tested them to the point that I am satisfied with them in combat situations I would think they would be subject to. I do that with all of my guns that I consider defensive firearms. I suggest you do the same with yours.

You could post any video you want about whatever. I know what my guns will do. Your video would be irrelevant.

Those videos don't make me uncomfortable with an AK either. If they make you uncomfortable, you have based your knowledge off more internet lore than reality and I suggest you get out more.

The_Pretender
January 8, 2010, 02:11 AM
K, here's the plan. When all hell breaks loose, you head up the left side and precisely take out the BG's and I'll go bury my rifle.

lolz.

Shadow Man
January 8, 2010, 02:14 AM
What astounds me is that some believe soldiers issued AK's are properly trained.

I carried, you could say "issued", one...I was not improperly trained.

I'll say it again, carry an AK and you're part of a target rich environment. Why? By most odds, you will be facing a superior opponent with better training, a superior firearm, and who is equally committed to using it. Like as not, a bandoleer of magazines will be the only body armor you have - and no hope of medevac.

Even worse, your opponent may look, act, and carry a weapon just like you - an AK. But he will be better with it. He's not a third world graduate of a dictator's house guard - he's an experienced and skilled American soldier.

So in essence, you are saying that if you carry an AK you are a "third world graduate of a dictator's house guard"? The weapon does not make the man, son. You should take a look at your wording: how about "Choose to fight in a nation's military that issues the AK and currently has a beef with NATO or the Western world, and you're part of a target rich environment." Completely different scenario just presented, and much more believeable, and less likely to upset those of us who have carried the AK, have not suddenly found themselves without training and at the mercy of super-troops carrying AR's, and have never been undergunned...not for a moment. Be cautious with your wording; you're not the only shark swimming in these waters.

The_Pretender
January 8, 2010, 02:22 AM
Be cautious with your wording; you're not the only shark swimming in these waters.

I like that. I'm a have to borrow it sometime.

Shadow Man
January 8, 2010, 02:24 AM
I like that. I'm a have to borrow it sometime.

Feel free. As a point of clarification, I did not intend that as a chest-thumping bit of braggadocio, but as a gentle reminder.

AZAviator
January 8, 2010, 02:46 AM
Might want to throw in a caution about the language on that video...

I think we are all big kids here.

He sounds like a whiner.

Nah he's just sick of complainers arguing about why the AK sucks and saying it the way it is

Okay, so the thing doesn't run when filled up with sand as the internet myth claims. I think most of those claims are repeated as half a joke anyways. The point is the thing is damn reliable some pretty bad conditions. Chevy guys don't rag on the Ford guys because the Chevy never breaks. It just breaks less.

This is probably the best post so far.

JohnKSa
January 8, 2010, 02:52 AM
I think we are all big kids here.First of all, THR claims to be a "family-friendly board".

Second, even if we're all "big kids", that doesn't mean that everyone who might overhear the video when it's played is a "big kid". Some folks might think it would be nice to have a clue up front that what's shortly going to be blaring out of their speakers won't make their "dear old Grandma" happy if she's nearby. ;)

AZAviator
January 8, 2010, 02:59 AM
Actually I dont even hear it to be honest. Rifleman is pretty tactful with his arguments, although laced with profanity - I agree.

RockyMtnTactical
January 8, 2010, 03:08 AM
Nah he's just sick of menlovers arguing about why the AK sucks and saying it the way it is

Who says the AK sucks? I never claimed that. I've said it more than once, this is not an AK bashing thread. I am just trying to bring some people who may have misconceptions about it's "greatness" down to earth. I think the AK is a combat worthy weapon that has proved itself over decades of combat in a variety of environments. You'll never find me saying anything different.

It may not be my first choice, but I wouldn't feel undergunned if I had to go into combat with one.

Maverick223
January 8, 2010, 03:18 AM
This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bOf2fq3myk&feature=fvw) proves that the claims are true (WARNING: Stupid Video...Watch At Your Own Risk!).

ifit
January 8, 2010, 06:19 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QbZWg4lRkg&NR=1&feature=fvwp
just could not resist but, giggled a bit as how he tries to throw in mostly sand and not mixed with little rocks, some how most of the sand he tries to throw in misses the rifle

RockyMtnTactical
January 8, 2010, 07:36 AM
just could not resist but, giggled a bit as how he tries to throw in mostly sand and not mixed with little rocks, some how most of the sand he tries to throw in misses the rifle

I wondered if I was the only one who caught that. Doesn't even look like he got much sand on/in it.

HunterBear71
January 8, 2010, 09:24 AM
This gets a little repetitive.

my762buzz
January 8, 2010, 12:45 PM
Problem solved.
It still fires and there is no gap for sand, pebbles, or rocks to enter.

http://i48.tinypic.com/2lcvgk2.jpg

Justin
January 8, 2010, 01:12 PM
That'll work right up until you re-engage the safety, pull the trigger or rack the bolt.

Wanta B
January 8, 2010, 01:46 PM
There is a very easy feild modification with some relitively simple tools that will fix the dust cover-gap issue.It works and it works VERY well. A South Afrikan fellow braught it to my attention.

I will not put it here as I like the fact that the AK currently has this weakness...Watch for it gentalmen!

my762buzz
January 8, 2010, 01:56 PM
The Saiga 12 has an internal piece that is there to close the gap.
Its odd that Izmash didn't come up with something similar for the rifles.

http://i48.tinypic.com/2lo1va0.jpg

ccsniper
January 8, 2010, 03:28 PM
I really can't see how this is still open.

Shadow Man
January 8, 2010, 03:35 PM
I really can't see how this is still open.

Why would it be closed?

dom1104
January 8, 2010, 03:38 PM
I think, its because the AKs biggest "PRO" is that it is reliable to a fault. So even if under extreme conditions it fails, the pro AK people get really defensive.


The ARs biggest "PRO" is... ergonomics? Prettyness?

I wonder how upset people would get if you called their AR ugly. :)


Seriously people, these machines arent complex. throw a bunch of grit and rocks in there, it will mess things up. on any gun.


Someone on these boards said something that is very true.


"The AK is more accurate than you think, and the AR is more reliable than you think".

I think we tend to take things kind of extreme sitting at our computer desks thinking about it.

ccsniper
January 8, 2010, 03:59 PM
Why would it be closed?

Just figured its kinda rolling towards "AK vs AR" thread to me.

Shadow Man
January 8, 2010, 04:02 PM
Just figured its kinda rolling towards "AK vs AR" thread to me.

True. I'm still having fun with it though, I hope it stays open.

RockyMtnTactical
January 8, 2010, 04:11 PM
"The AK is more accurate than you think, and the AR is more reliable than you think".

That could be mine for all I know. I have made similar statements in my past.

Shadow Man
January 8, 2010, 04:22 PM
I was thinking the same thing RockyMtnTactical.

RedRocket556
January 8, 2010, 04:34 PM
AK47 Dirt/ Dust Reliability Test: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtJ4mI0Hhro

Shadow Man
January 8, 2010, 04:44 PM
How many former Eastern Block professionals have any of us encountered?!Don't fool yourselves.They are stait up bad***.

I just noticed this Wanta B. Do veteran Chechnians count? They fought off the best the Russians had to throw at them and made some trouble for us, too.

Wanta B
January 8, 2010, 04:44 PM
+1 to the could be my "accurate AK/reliable AR" comment...Most of us that have used both weapons extensively find it to very true.Favorite one aside.

Wanta B
January 8, 2010, 04:46 PM
Shadowman---the Chechnians...LOL,tho' I know it ain't funny...Yeh,I suppose they would should they be participating here.

They could also point to the use of the weapon by highly motivated folks! That know how to use it.

Shadow Man
January 8, 2010, 04:49 PM
Nothin' a JDAM won't fix. MCLMM :D

They could also point to the use of the weapon by highly motivated folks! That know how to use it.

Exactly. There is a huge difference between a NEPUT with an AK than an 0311 or 11B with an AK.

Wanta B
January 8, 2010, 04:57 PM
:evil:...thats all I've got to say about that.

Shadow Man
January 8, 2010, 05:00 PM
Figured you'd understand ;)

Wanta B
January 8, 2010, 05:00 PM
Shadow Man---An add-on to the Chechnians...Sharpdressedman's quote you now use for your sig-line says it all.

Shadow Man
January 8, 2010, 05:01 PM
Indeed it does. He really hit the nail on the head with that one.

John Parker
January 8, 2010, 05:06 PM
Chechens...bad juju there fellas. Those guys generally know their business very well.

Warhawk83
January 8, 2010, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by Slamfire1:
It had never occurred, in the twenty years hence, what that confidence building exercise proved, was that the M16 was a less reliable weapon than the AK, and that precision does not mean a thing if your weapon is jammed.

My father in law was pinned down for hours in Vietnam with a buddy of his. They had 2 FUBAR'd M16's and plenty of ammo they couldn't fire.

Shadow Man
January 8, 2010, 05:37 PM
Chechens...bad juju there fellas. Those guys generally know their business very well.

Yes sir, they do. Bad juju indeed.

USMC8541
January 8, 2010, 06:14 PM
"I'll say it again, carry an AK and you're part of a target rich environment". TIROD I dont believe you know what your talking about , I think its important for you to know AK47 rifles are issued to American Armed service members for certain missions. I have been in the Armory of 2nd Force Recon at camp Lejeune NC, You would be surprised at how many different types of weapons were there. We dont shoot people based solely on what type of weapon they are carrying. What you are saying makes no sense to me.

Art Eatman
January 8, 2010, 06:24 PM
More than enough. Take pity on that poor old horse.

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