[wishin]

If, as a non-LEO, you catch someone in a criminal act that clearly merits or demands that you detain him at gunpoint for good reason while waiting for the police(), how would you go about doing that? Kneeing? Prone? hands on head? Do you pat him down........???

PLEASE - No "what is a good reason" posts. Let's assume it's a real good reason.

LEO's are encouraged to provide advice and guidelines on the best course of action for a licensed gun owner to take.

[Aran]

If you aren't going to shoot him, don't pull your gun. If your life isn't threatened, you're not going to shoot him, so don't pull your gun.

[mcdonl]

If, as a non-LEO, you catch someone in a criminal act that clearly merits or demands that you detain him at gunpoint for good reason while waiting for the police(), how would you go about doing that? Kneeing? Prone? hands on head? Do you pat him down........???

This is one of those "check your state laws" as a lot of states would consider this unlawful detaining. If you or your family are not in immediate danger you may get in trouble for this.

I guess the "good reason" would have to be explored. If a reasonable man felt that this person was going to without a doubt hurt someone you *MAY* be ok, but otherwise I would consider just calling the police.

Or, flash your CCW badge :)

[sheepdog]

...laws on citizens arrest are best researched and discussed state-by-state...what is right in one state will getcha prison time in another...
...to strictly answer your post...depends on the training of the citizen involved...what an ex-cop or serviceman would do and what an untrained citizen would do would be radically different...

[divemedic]

If you aren't going to shoot him, don't pull your gun. If your life isn't threatened, you're not going to shoot him, so don't pull your gun.

That is a crock. So I pull out my firearm, and the person drops his weapon and surrenders, but well, I already drew my weapon- too late for you, buddy.

In many states, merely pointing a weapon at someone is NOT deadly force.

To answer the OP's question: I do not attempt to arrest anyone- not my job. If he wants to leave, fine. However, if I MUST do so, have them lie down on their belly and face away from you, hands spread out.

The more important question is this: so you order the "perp" (as you call him) to his knees, belly, whatever, and he refuses to comply. What are you going to do? Shoot him? Close to contact range and risk having your weapon taken?

[Aran]

I didn't say you absolutely have to shoot him once it's out, but unless you have actual plans to shoot, you aren't in a situation warranting drawing.

[Gungnir]

you catch someone in a criminal act that clearly merits or demands that you detain him at gunpoint for good reason while waiting for the police()

Really your problem here is how do you know the "someone" is engaged in a criminal act, you don't unless you're intimately aware of your local, state, and federal criminal law, which would likely make you a DA, and therefore not asking the question. You might suspect, but you do not know.

If you need to use your gun to detain the suspect criminal (which we have identified above may not be a criminal at all) then you are completely on the wrong side of the law. Unless you are in immediate risk of death or serious injury being committed against you, do not draw your weapon. Now if you're trying to detain this person and you do draw your weapon, then it's likely if you shoot that person you're off to jail for a very long time. You have no real right to detain them, and if they attack you, they're defending themselves, if you shoot them you're the aggressor, which means un-justified homicide.

The only time you should deploy and use your handgun, with a hope of not being put in jail, is to defend yourself, in the defense of friends and family, when there is immediate risk of death or serious injury. In your question you gave a very nice description, which I can state does not meet the criteria that you are able to catch a perp on the police's behalf using your firearm. You could tackle him to the ground, you could knock him out, but then you might not be right in your assessment that he's committing a crime, then you'd have a civil case, and possibly criminal too, and you were armed during the commission of a crime if criminal charges are brought.

Your gun, and carry permit do not give you the right to infringe on any one else's rights. Even though you might suspect that they're committing a crime. Many seemingly criminal acts are completely innocent, and surprisingly vice-versa.

Even "apparently" cut and dried crimes can turn out to be not crimes at all. For instance suppose you're walking home one night, you hear a woman scream, and the sounds of a scuffle, turning down an alley you see a guy grabbing a woman, and ripping her shirt open. Is this a crime? On the face of it yes, but what if, they're husband and wife, and play these games to spice things up a bit? Then it's a completely different situation, and you just happened to stumble across and get involved uninvited. I also suspect that this scenario is one that you would on the face of it would initially think this "clearly demands" you do something. Now if the scenario was she sees you and screams help, then the situation has changed and you can do something. However even then I would not recommend drawing your gun to detain the suspect, scare him off and give a full description to the police.

Your best bet is to use your brain, and call the cops, wait until they arrive, regardless of whether the suspected Perp is still there or not, and give them a full description of what you saw and the suspect.

[Kingcreek]

As a non-LEO victim of some hypothetical crime in progress?...
If said perp at gunpoint says "F_ you, I'm leaving" I am not going to use force (or training I don't have) to detain him. If he says "OK man, just don't shoot me" fine- we wait for the law to arrive. Presumably, the threat is passed. If not, then I am about to or already have fired my weapon.

[EddieNFL]

Really your problem here is how do you know the "someone" is engaged in a criminal act, you don't unless you're intimately aware of your local, state, and federal criminal law, which would likely make you a DA, and therefore not asking the question. You might suspect, but you do not know.

In the words of Dirty Harry, "I see a naked man chasing a woman down an alley with a butcher knife and a hard on, I figure he ain't collecting for the Red Cross."

That may not be verbatim.

[GunsAmerica Fan]

If you've got a Rahm as the DA you can actually be convicted of kidnapping in some states. In others it is "unlawful detaining" as someone else said. In florida we at least have castle doctrine, but good luck in Massachusetts, NY, etc. I dread having to deal with that situation.

[Gungnir]

In the words of Dirty Harry, "I see a naked man chasing a woman down an alley with a butcher knife and a hard on, I figure he ain't collecting for the Red Cross."

That may not be verbatim.

Ah yes, Inspector Harry Callahan, San Francisco Police Department, cop. Not CCW/CPL/CHL owner.

[Madcap_Magician]

This seems like a rare situation, but it could happen. Say, you have a burglar break into your house, and you catch him in the beam of your flashlight and have a gun on him. Most of the time they'll run, but in the off chance that someone surrenders to you, my advice is this:

1. In a loud and firm voice, have the burglar get down on his knees while keeping his hands away from his body.
2. Instruct the burglar to get in the prone position with his arms straight out, and then to cross his legs and turn his palms up. (It is impossible to get up from this position without flipping your palms back down to the ground and uncrossing your legs)
3. Instruct the burglar that you will interpret any sudden movement on his behalf as an attempt to attack you.
4. Stay out of the burglar's reach.
5. Dial 911 and stay on the line with the operator, telling them that you are the homeowner, that you are armed, and have captured a burglar in your home. Give a description of yourself, what clothes you're wearing, etc.
6. Holster or set down your gun in easy reach of you, but well out of reach of the burglar.
7. Wait for police.

YMMV.

[The Bushmaster]

In public...If no one is in danger of harm from this perp. Don't pull your gun! Just be a good witness...

If they are in your house or trying to get in. THAT is a different story...Shoot-em...

[mcdonl]

6. Holster or set down your gun in easy reach of you, but well out of reach of the burglar.

I think I will hold onto mine until LEO arrives.... other than that it is good sound advice. I think.

[wishin]

I don't plan on listing all of the possible situations that may require this, but some of you either aren't comprehending, or are choosing to display your superior intellect instead.:banghead: Read the bolded text. I repeat:

If, as a non-LEO, you catch someone in a criminal act that clearly merits or demands that you detain him at gunpoint for good reason while waiting for the police(), how would you go about doing that? Kneeing? Prone? hands on head? Do you pat him down........???

PLEASE - No "what is a good reason" posts. Let's assume it's a real good reason.

LEO's are encouraged to provide advice and guidelines on the best course of action for a licensed gun owner to take.

Madcapmagician is on post. Thanks.

[X-Rap]

I say I have to go along with Eddie and the Magician. If I had a woman screaming that a man had just stolen her purse I would follow and try to maintain contact for the police, if she was covered in blood and said the man had killed her husband and shot her I would pull my gun, same if I was in a parking garage and saw a woman being held down by 3 or 4 men and being raped. I would have no qualms about shooting if they moved towards me or continued with the attack but it doesn't mean I have to go Samari just because the weapon was draw and it required blood.
6. Holster or set down your gun in easy reach of you, but well out of reach of the burglar.

That might not be the best idea.

[mcdonl]

Wishin, here in Maine you cannot detain someone. You can use deadly force if a) a reasonable person would assume they are going to cause you great bodily harm b) are in the process of committing arson or c) you are reasonably sure that if they are not stopped they will cause someone else great bodily harm.

So, I suppose that if they stopped their actions in A and B you would not be justified in detaining them, but if C were the case than perhaps you would be.

As far as how.... I would say that Item 6 aside madcap had it right.

[M2 Carbine]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/Warning-1.jpg

And I mean it to.

[EddieNFL]

Ah yes, Inspector Harry Callahan, San Francisco Police Department, cop. Not CCW/CPL/CHL owner.
Is everyone here always so serious?

If anyone is using this forum as a means of determining what they can and cannot legally do, well, they probably shouldn't own a firearm.

[divemedic]

1. In a loud and firm voice, have the burglar get down on his knees while keeping his hands away from his body.
2. Instruct the burglar to get in the prone position with his arms straight out, and then to cross his legs and turn his palms up. (It is impossible to get up from this position without flipping your palms back down to the ground and uncrossing your legs)
3. Instruct the burglar that you will interpret any sudden movement on his behalf as an attempt to attack you.
4. Stay out of the burglar's reach.
5. Dial 911 and stay on the line with the operator, telling them that you are the homeowner, that you are armed, and have captured a burglar in your home. Give a description of yourself, what clothes you're wearing, etc.
6. Holster or set down your gun in easy reach of you, but well out of reach of the burglar.
7. Wait for police.

You forgot a few steps:

1a: Burglar responds with a scornful remark
1b: say in more forceful voice "down on your knees while keeping your hands away from your body, or else"
1c: While you are preoccupied with telephone and burglar, burglar's accomplice hits you over the head from behind with frying pan

Bonus points if anyone knows what movie this is from.

It is pertinent. What makes any of you think that a criminal is going to be gutsy enough to stay, while still shaking in his boots enough to follow instructions? and are you willing to bet your life on it?

Even "apparently" cut and dried crimes can turn out to be not crimes at all. For instance suppose you're walking home one night, you hear a woman scream, and the sounds of a scuffle, turning down an alley you see a guy grabbing a woman, and ripping her shirt open. Is this a crime? On the face of it yes, but what if, they're husband and wife, and play these games to spice things up a bit? Then it's a completely different situation, and you just happened to stumble across and get involved uninvited. I also suspect that this scenario is one that you would on the face of it would initially think this "clearly demands" you do something. Now if the scenario was she sees you and screams help, then the situation has changed and you can do something. However even then I would not recommend drawing your gun to detain the suspect, scare him off and give a full description to the police.

Also, you are wrong here. The law states that you may use deadly force to protect yourself or another if you REASONABLY believe that your life or the life of another is in danger, (or in some states) to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. In the situation you describe, it would be reasonable to assume that the woman's life is in danger, and that a forcible felony is being committed.

[Hunterdad]

I really don't care what the laws state. If someone is in my house, then they will have the bead from a 12ga on them. They can arrest me and do what they wish, but I will be prepared to protect my family regardless of the laws.

[Madcap_Magician]

You forgot a few steps:

1a: Burglar responds with a scornful remark
1b: say in more forceful voice "down on your knees while keeping your hands away from your body, or else"
1c: While you are preoccupied with telephone and burglar, burglar's accomplice hits you over the head from behind with frying pan

The whole sequence is really kind of dependent on the burglar obeying. If they want to leave, there's not a whole lot you can do about it, as long as they're not threatening you. Me personally, I'd encourage them to leave. The command voice is important, though, but the gun does have its own command presence.

The reason I would reholster or set my gun down is to avoid that recent and unfortunate scenario that played itself out in Arizona not too long ago when that idiot cop walked in and shot the first person he saw.

[X-Rap]

The reason I would reholster or set my gun down is to avoid that recent and unfortunate scenario that played itself out in Arizona not too long ago when that idiot cop walked in and shot the first person he saw.


I get your clarification and kinda figured that was the reason, I would add that if possible send someone out to the street to ID and explain the situation and when and if you see the cops pull up and start for the house or your location, that would be the time to set the gun down or at least raise your hands over your head and wait for instructions.

[gym]

Your carry is for the defense of you a loved one or the rare situation that a holdup, mugging, or a violent act to a total stranger takes place in front of you. You don't have to do anything, since you aren't a police officer. If you do something and you rush in blind to what appears to be something it's not, you will be sued by several parties depending on the situation. We stopped a guy from beating his wife in the middle of the street while driving by, and they both got up and came at us screaming it was their business, we were young and foolish, but things aren't always what they seem.

[archigos]

The more important question is this: so you order the "perp" (as you call him) to his knees, belly, whatever, and he refuses to comply. What are you going to do? Shoot him? Close to contact range and risk having your weapon taken?

At least in NY, failing to stop for arrest (even citizens arrest) in the immediate flight from a crime that itself warrants deadly force is cause for deadly force.

[X-Rap]

Gym being sued is what might happen, and what would you have thought today had you read in the paper the next day that a woman was killed by her husband in the middle of the street after you drove by and ignored it?
The what if's are endless as the various laws in the 50 different states. Many would wonder if they were in the same country if the leathal force and weapons laws were compared with say Mass. and Wyo. or Tx.

[X-Rap]

delete

[mljdeckard]

Here's the key thing to remember. You are drawing to prevent a violent act. If I do draw, and the BG surrenders, I command: FACE DOWN ON THE GROUND, HANDS BEHIND YOUR HEAD!!

Now is where it splits. If he continues to do anything DANGEROUS, I follow through with deadly force. If he FLEES and I no longer reasonably think he he is an immediate danger to me or someone else, I let him go. Even if I could talk wmy way out of it, deadly force isn't justified.

If the gun is justified in coming out, he better act quicker than me. But remember, most armed encounters end peacefully.

[Cyclimus]

In Ohio, we have the power of citizens' arrest only in light of a felony - purse snatching does not count, but murder, assault, rape - sure. I actually work security for my church as the only non-LEO member of the team and I've been taught that the best way to handle that is to maintain distance and have the perpetrator assume a prone position, face down, arms outstretched with the ankles crossed as was mentioned above. I thankfully have backup coming quickly in that event. I also would, if possible, position myself behind the person (closer to their feet than their head) so they couldn't see specifically where I was).

[ByAnyMeans]

If my life was in danger or see a murder/rape in progress yet did not have an immediate reason to draw and fire I would yell for the person to drop or stop whatever they are doing and lay on the ground hands out. Wait for the cops. He runs away I am not giving chase. He keeps advancing I'm shooting when needed. Essentially what he did from their would dictate how the situation progressed.

At least that's what I tell myself, hope to never figure that one out in real life.

[ny32182]

The only reason I would draw in the first place is if I believed my life was in imminent danger.

However long that takes, the only way I'm not shooting is if perp can go from being dangerous to not being dangerous between the time I reach for pistol, and the time I see the front sight. I guess he could start running in that time, and if he does I'm not chasing. If he's not running, I'm shooting... either way, I'm not going to be in the business of "detaining" anyone.

[wishin]

I'm sure some will disagree. As a matter of fact, I'm getting my protective vest ready for the pot shots.:uhoh:

Under the circumstances I briefly and narrowly defined in my post, I would call 911 and intervene. I'd detain an individual regardless of whether my family is involved or not. I would use Madcap Magician's method of neutralizing the prep.

The nature of the criminal act would dictate the severity of my actions should the criminal (not alleged) refuse to cooperate. Yes, I would not hesitate to shoot. No, I would not shoot an unarmed person who's not threatening a human life. Yes, I refuse to allow him to leave, as long as I'm able and the guy's not too big to handle. (In which case, I make a stategic advance to the rear).....

If I'm still alive, I call a lawyer and suffer the consequences. I'm not a John Wayne, but this is the way I've lived my life.

[Kleanbore]

Originally posted by Sheepdog: ...laws on citizens arrest are best researched and discussed state-by-state...what is right in one state will getcha prison time in another...

Very true. Also, there is considerable financial risk for the civilian in any jurisdiction, because he or she is not indemnified against civil judgments.

...to strictly answer your post...depends on the training of the citizen involved...what an ex-cop or serviceman would do and what an untrained citizen would do would be radically different...I would say could be different. Where I live, even uniformed officers on duty hesitate to take a violent criminal actor into custody without help. Former police officers I know would not even think about trying to effect a citizen's arrest for any reason.

Aside from the risk of civil and criminal liability, there's the risk of being shot by arriving police officers or by an armed citizen who comes upon the scene, the risk of being ambushed by an accomplice as pointed out by Divemedic, and the risk of being overcome, disarmed, and shot by the perp himself.

Personally, I'd feel rather dumb pointing a gun at someone and issuing commands to him only to watch him walk away, and I do not see putting myself at great risk to have that happen. Heck, that even happens to police officers from time to time. If the perp has been through the legal process a few times and has spent time with others of the same ilk, he will likely know that that is his right except in a very few circumstances and jurisdictions.

All downside and no upside, as I see it.

[jfdavis58]

There is some interesting advice in this thread. Might I suggest that you all look for laws and case precedents concerning flight/chase and surveillance activities for your happenings in your own state. Chasing a lesser armed suspect (or an unarmed one) became problematic for a fellow in NM a couple years back.

Seems the good guy chased the bad guy into a dead-end. The good guy had a handgun, the bad guy might have had a hammer. A struggle ensued, bad guy died of gunshot wound, good guy became a bad guy and went to prison. Cannot take a gun to a hammer fight=>voluntary manslaughter; cannot trap bad guy away from original crime scene=>unlawful imprisonment.

[9MMare]

I dont foresee a situation where I'd try to hold someone for the police unless they had threatened me with deadly force (like had a gun, in my house, univited) and I now had them at gunpoint. Meaning that if they were out on my property, stealing something, I wouldnt draw my weapon (again, unless threatened with df).

So, here I am in my mostly dark house, waiting for the cops, with a bg held at gunpoint. I think I'd prefer that he cut and run, assuming I wont fire...because I wont. I'm not shooting a fleeing guy, unless I see him heading for a weapon.

I say I'd prefer he run...even tho it might leave him free to return in the future :-( Because:

a) he may choose to attack me anyway, rather than go to jail (risking that I wont fire) and then I would have to shoot to stop.

b) considering the cop killings in my area the past 2 months, I am very fearful about cops coming to my home and finding me standing with a gun. (Even tho I would tell the 911 dispatcher that I was armed)

It's not a very pleasant scenario...but one that at least has to be considered so that I'm as mentally prepared as possible.

[Nicky Santoro]

Detaining A Perp At Gunpoint

I'd tell him to get down on the floor and put his hands behind his neck. If he gets up and runs I'm not going to shoot unless he runs at me. I'm not LE and once the threat has ceased I will not escalate.

[xXxplosive]

On cops last evening...........large BG maybe 350lbs. on drugs or drunk..the LEO ordered him down at least 6 times with no respons....the guy just kept on walkin' around, in circles....the LEO had a dog but did not give the attack command...finally more officers arrived and forced the guy down.

Point is.....LEO have tasers and handcuffs and can get an immediate response to disable a BG. I even saw a cop pull a gun on a person once during a B&E and the guy just turned and started to walk away, this was before Tasers were used.... I believe this is a very good question and valid point.

If you indeed are involved in a criminal situation where you are the victim but your life is not being immediately threatened........how do you hold him/her for the police without a physical altercation of some sort.....?

[BOOM-BOOM]

If they were in my house with a gun, we'd be waiting for the coroner not the Police:)

[sheepdog]

...again, laws vary state-to-state...some states totally indemnify a citizen criminally and civilly if he is within the law as it is written..
...don't know where you live...but my experience has been to make felony arrests quickly without waiting for help...containing the situation as soon as possible...and I and many of my fellows routinely jumped up off-duty to assist uniformed officers...and were welcome...I've made several arrests off-duty...of course, 30 years ago, there weren't as many fat lawyers and the public appreciated what we did more...I wouldn't police in today's society...life is full of risks...each person must make his own choices based on his experiences and training...but wait...I already said that....;)

[Erik M]

hands out, nose to the pavement.

[ROC]

Unless you're trained, I wouldn't want to be anywhere close enough to pat him down. Distance is a good thing here.

I have a couple of friends, as many of y'all do, that can take a gun away fom any untrained gunman with several feet of them and shoot them with their own gun. The closer the gunman is, the easier it is.

I'm by far an expert, but, I live by the motto to "perform within your abilities", nothing more.;)

[Gungnir]

Also, you are wrong here. The law states that you may use deadly force to protect yourself or another if you REASONABLY believe that your life or the life of another is in danger, (or in some states) to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. In the situation you describe, it would be reasonable to assume that the woman's life is in danger, and that a forcible felony is being committed.

Really, you'd bet your future liberty and the welfare of your family on that assumption, when the civil suit is finished. Rather you than me, since "reasonably believing" is open to the interpretation of the jury. It's a whole different ball game if you have a choice of being dead, or hoping a jury agrees it's justified.

[gym]

First of all what criminal act merits me detaining anyone, other than an immediate attack or robbery, to myself or another innocent party, at which point either you take action or don't,we aren't Law Enforcement Officers. When you say a criminal act that merits, what act do you speak of. If I see someone breaking into a house, I call the Police, I don't go in after the person. This is too vague to give a meaningful answer.

[David E]

Such a simple question generating all the answers the OP wished to avoid!

Yes, it matters what a "good reason" is, so let's presume one exists.

IF the badguy decides to leave and it's not copasetic to shoot him in the back, let him leave.

BUT, if he complies with your commands, prone him out, face down, facing away from you, arms straight out from sides, palms up, ankles crossed. Have significant other call 911, not you.

DO NOT engage in conversation.

DO NOT try to cuff him, even if you are trained in cuffing techniques, as those purple furry cuffs might raise some indiscreet questions in court...........:D

[lobo9er]

Its not an unreasonable question. I'm not sure theres an answer though because every situation would be different. The situation would dictate how you should handle the situation at hand, if at all.

The word "situation" owned my response pretty hard.

[Mike J]

Good Question Wishin- Now you've got me wondering what kind of response this topic would get at GeorgiaPacking.org.

[Bliggida]

DIVEMEDIC: Bonus points if anyone knows what movie this is from.

I win! "Demolition Man"
and my response, "Nice tidy uniforms, ooooh I'm soooo scared"

Folks you first have to understand that this is an extremely rare case. Pushing beyond that, there are so many dynamics to this kind of situation, everything is fluid and changes second to second.

If you're lucky, you may get a few other members of the public to help you out, but I wouldn't count on it outside of an airplane.

Having said that, I will assume two things:
A) Texas
B) Foiled bank robbery

In Texas, a citizen has the authority to make the following arrests
- Breach of the Peace
- Code of Criminal Procedures 18.16 (nabbin' a shoplifter)
- Any felony

If the circumstances happened perfectly in which you drew your gun to end a violent crime, he surrenders (we'll assume he pointed a gun at the teller) and because of that your gun is already out. Keep your distance and prone him out. You better be an emmy-nominated best actor for making him belief that one little twitch you'll blow him clean off the face of the earth. Almost daring him for one small reason to pull the trigger.
Your goal is to use the fear of force, more than force itself until the calvary comes.

But there are so many variables to something like this that its really hard to talk about without being specific. This certainly won't/may not apply to other "what if" situations.

In a bank, I'd first be worried about a security guard. Do I expect anything out of them but hitting the deck like everyone else - NO! However, they still are usually armed. You DO NOT want to be mistaken for bad guy #2 and get popped in your own think-tank.

Secondly, if your gun is out when the boys-in-blue show up, you need to be extremely careful and follow directions to the letter. To go through an ordeal like that only to be shot on a case of mistaken identity is...well... a suck fest.

I always carry a dedicated pair of handcuffs in the car. If this happened to me, I would give a person my keys, and tell them to use the panic button to find my car and get the handcuffs out of my glove box and bring them to me.
Problem #87, is there a get-away car in the lot waiting to plug anyone coming out the door not dawning a ski-mask?

And that's my point there are just so many factors to convolute things.

Best case scenario, you realize that (although) you'll be released eventually, you will be handcuffed and treated like scum. Your gun may somehow be toted off as "evidence".

Legally, since you have arrest authority I seriously doubt you'd see a trumped up charge of unlawful restraint. It's exactly the opposite, a lawful restraint. You're authorized by law to use as much force as necessary to effect that arrest. You're chances of being sued are likely low with witnesses and video. You aren't bound by any policy, procedure, or training. Doing the right thing would run somewhere along the lines of the 'good samaritan act'.

You might get called brave, stupid, or both by the Police. And in general don't like to have citizens steal their thunder.

Bear in mind, you're chances are probably exponentially greater of being struck by lighting.

[wishin]

Yeah, I thought about adopting their slogan as my signature!


GeorgiaCarry.Org is Georgia's no-compromise voice for gun owners.

[ghoster]

BANG:rolleyes:

[LibShooter]

If, as a non-LEO, you catch someone in a criminal act that clearly merits or demands that you detain him at gunpoint for good reason while waiting for the police.

I've been racking my brain, and I just can't think of one good reason to hold a guy at gunpoint.

If I come face to face with a bad guy in my home, I'm not going to tell him to freeze and get on the ground. I'm going to tell him to get his keester out of my house. If he does, great. He's a problem for the boys in blue. If he doesn't I'll just have to pull the trigger. Sorry, Dude.

In public, I have a third choice, to back away and then get my own keester out of there.

Either way, bad guy and LibShooter part company or there will be loud noises and flying projectiles. It is not my job to hold anyone against his will.

[wishin]

:uhoh:
Your next door neighbor is arguing in the yard:

1. Is shot;
2. you witness it happening;
3. you shout, "what the f**k";
4. perp says, "f**k off";
5. you hide;
6. You pee in your pants; (not necessarily in that order)
7. he laughs while pointing to your wet pants;
8. you beg him not to shoot you;
9. he takes your gun;
10. you say "keep it";
11. he calls you a wimp;
12. you agree;
13. you wake up from this horrible dream in a sweat;
14. only to find out it really happened...........

For all the rhetoric about "not my job", etc., I don't believe this describes the actions of the average American with a license to carry.

The odds of someone being shot in your presence are slim to none. But, wouldn't you like to think this isn't you, for fear of getting involved and maybe even arrested?

[sheepdog]

...excuse me, I thought this was a serious thread until that last post...now I wonder why we all tried....

[MedWheeler]

Aran, please consider getting some training. You'll then be an asset to the gun community. Until you do, you are a liability.
You don't pull a gun because you "plan" to shoot someone. You pull it because you might need to. Even if your intent (or "plan") is to fire, it had better be able to change is the subject suddenly ceases to be a threat before you get your shot off.
Also, if you wait to draw until the threat is obvious, you may also be risking your own safety. Draw before "you probably need to shoot" becomes "you NOW need to shoot". Many cops who hesitated to draw until they saw a weapon have been killed.

[LibShooter]

The odds of someone being shot in your presence are slim to none. But, wouldn't you like to think this isn't you, for fear of getting involved and maybe even arrested?

If my neighbor is shot in my presence, the VERY last thing on my mind would be keeping the shooter on the scene. I want him to run away, as far and as fast as possible. If he doesn't, that's a gunfight, not a fairy tale. That's no time to try to subdue a guy who just proved he's willing to use deadly force in full view of witnesses.

If I'm going to get help for my neighbor I'll need both hands and every brain cell at my disposal. I have neither to spare to make a citizen's arrest and sit on an angry shooter.

[zxcvbob]

1c: While you are preoccupied with telephone and burglar, burglar's accomplice hits you over the head from behind with frying pan

Bonus points if anyone knows what movie this is from. Is it "Fargo"? (I know somebody else already said "Demolition Man")

BTW, the use of the word "Perp" in the subject line is enough of a reason for me to say No to holding someone at gunpoint.

[Elvishead]

OP

wishin

If, as a non-LEO, you catch someone in a criminal act that clearly merits or demands that you detain him at gunpoint for good reason while waiting for the police(), how would you go about doing that? Kneeing? Prone? hands on head? Do you pat him down........???

PLEASE - No "what is a good reason" posts. Let's assume it's a real good reason.

LEO's are encouraged to provide advice and guidelines on the best course of action for a licensed gun owner to take.

In Vegas I'd let him go to save my life.

The police would show up and shoot me if I was holding a gun, those G.E.D. sharp shooter's!

They may not be smart, but they are good shot's.:uhoh:

I wish I was being sarcastic, honest.

[Bliggida]

ELVISHEAD
The police would show up and shoot me if I was holding a gun, those G.E.D. sharp shooter's!
Scary that all you need is a G.E.D. to become a LEO, but it's true. There are many agencies that don't require college and it's a real shame.

They may not be smart, but they are good shot's.
Oh, you'd be surprised! Had a long time friend from the Sheriff's Office over for dinner after Christmas. Went to show him a few things - he unloaded safely, but when it came to locking the slide back on the GLOCK, he didn't know/remember how and disassembly, tried doing it without depressing the trigger.
I thought, "No, surely not MY friend". We had to have a session right there. Unfortunately with that department, he only qualifies once a year with about 70 rounds. Shooting paper bad guys with no time limit. Oh, and any hit on the body is counted. Not just center-mass.
Most Officer's, sad to say, are not the gun-buffs they should be.

But regardless of itchy-twitchy Officer's. You need to incorporate into your training the aftermath of what will happen. Anytime you draw your gun just automatically expect to be handcuffed for a while. That's just the way it is. You may even be charged and booked!

[MinnMooney]

The OP has already mentioned that you have a good reason to have your gun out and retain the perp until LE gets there.

If this is the case - & let's assume it to be true - then having the perp lay prone, face down, legs crossed, arms out-streached & palms up will give both time to think, assess and act. YOU should be calling the police. The PERP is probabaly either : A.) kicking himself for doing whatever he was doing and getting caught OR B.) thinking of what the odds are of you shooting him if he trys to escape.

If he picks 'B' and actually gets up to leave with no actionon his part that seems threatening to you, then you have to either let him leave or physically restrain him w/o using your gun. My choice would be to let him walk.

[Elvishead]

Scary that all you need is a G.E.D. to become a LEO, but it's true. There are many agencies that don't require college and it's a real shame.

Well, just because they have just a G.E.D. doesn't make them idiot's either, but I also think you don't need a 4 year law degree, and that doesn't make you smart either.

David E

DO NOT engage in conversation.

That sounds like good advise.

[BCCL]

When I went through this a few years ago, with an intruder in my garage, I just ordered him to stand still and keep his hands away from his body and waited for the police to arrive. I figure the less I "let" him move, the less chance of him reaching for something.

I also made sure that the person that called the police, told them I had a gun, and gave them a good description of me before they got there and as soon as the first officer got out of his car, made sure he knew I was the home owner.

[ClayInTX]

...you catch someone in a criminal act that clearly merits or demands that you detain him at gunpoint for good reason while waiting for the police...

I didn’t read where he asked for advice on why.

[GEM]

My only comment is that these kind of questions are why one, if you can, should try some quality FOF exercises. These are tightly scripted and monitored.

You will find it quite informative when the 'perp' doesn't comply. I make a great non-complying perp.

Watch people freeze up! Or shoot when it is probably not defensible! Watch while the conforming perp waits till you relax and shoots you!

Very informative when you screw up.

[gym]

Good Reason? What would that be? And clear to who, you? him? the law?

[alohachris]

1c: While you are preoccupied with telephone and burglar, burglar's accomplice hits you over the head from behind with frying pan

Yeah, scumbags typically travel in pairs. Always be on the look out for #2. In many of the robbery videos I've seen on TV or the internet (that didn't involve shooting), I've noticed a pattern.

1) Robbery starts, victim startled, perp is in control.
2)Victim pulls gun on perp.
3)Perp freezes for a many seconds, then puts hands up. (sizing up victims intent)
4)Perp then runs away.

Obviously, it doesn't always go this way but I've seen this pattern repeat often. The pause between the perp & victim is a scary, dangerous place to me. I really hope I never face a perp 'surrendering' to me at gun point. The danger seems to me to be overconfidence in the 'control' on the part of the gun owner that gets you killed.