[TonyB]

My plan is to shoot phone books,and magazines that are taped together...then look at the penetration and expansion.....hopefully this weekend..I'll post results......I'll be testing 38's,357's from my Sp101,and (mm from my glock17.........anyone else ever try something like this??:cool:

[Old Fuff]

TonyB

I think you may be disapointed. If paper shreads fill the nose cavity in a hollow point they tend to implode, not expand, and penetrate more then they would otherwise. If you soak the paper-packs in water for a day or two it will work better, but again the results you get will show what can be expected in wet-pac but nothing more.

Shooting solid points will give you some idea about relative penetration between different cartridges.

One test you might try that would be interesting is make a frame out of 2 x 4 studs and nail a piece of sheetrock on each side. This duplicates the walls in most houses. Then see what does or doesn't go through.

[TonyB]

Hey good idea....I actually have some peices of sheetrock around too..any other ideas??:cool:

[Travis McGee]

Kool! I'd soak the phone books first. The testing cartridge to cartridge should be valid. Try to get more than penetration though, try to measure the lateral destruction too in the middle of the "wound channnel."

http://matthewbracken.web.aplus.net/snakelogo.jpg

[DMK]

There was a discussion on TFL about using Playdough which is a bit softer and reusable. Fill up a bucket with the stuff.

Here's how to make your own:

http://www.parentsoup.com/havefun/crafts/articles/0,,166506_263285,00.html

Homemade Playdough

Materials

• 1 cup of salt
• 1 cup of flour
• 1 cup of water
• Cookie cutters
• Rolling pin or narrow bottle
• Food coloring (optional)


Directions

Put salt and flour in a deep unbreakable bowl. Drape your child in an old shirt or smock and allow him or her to mix the dry ingredients thoroughly with hands or a wooden spoon. Slowly add water to which some drops of food coloring have been added. Continue to mix, then knead dough until it is smooth and elastic without being sticky. Dump the dough onto a flat floured surface and roll it out with the rolling pin or bottle. Use cookie cutters to make shapes or provide child with other cutting and poking utensils such as plastic knives, bottle tops and lids, chopsticks, and assorted plastic shapes.

[sm]

I have tested a variety of handgun, rifle and shotgun loads, in variety of media.
Soaking the phone books, and stacks of newpapers is suggested.
I have also had access to bldg. materials, farm houses, barns...etc.
Shooting old cars, doors, windshields, back glass, passenger glass.

Part of what I was testing were measures to insure safety against rounds in a particular enviroment , say for instance steel plates, ceramic plates for walls, as cover in case things went south in a business. I beefed up walls in homes, the safe room / gathering place if you will.

Couple of things came out. Guns, loads, pellets, slugs...etc., do differently than one might expect, and glass, especially steep angles on windshields and backglass deflect ( even straight on passenger glass deflects.

The "scientific mud test" and " I shoot dirt" are remarkable tests,when same bullets, same lots are compared to shooting game. Scary close resemblance in fact.

I suggest one uses the same lot in different media. 4 rules, eyes/ears, don't do by yourself on some of the testing, a buddy at least can assist with safety.

[Langenator]

Hmmm...anybody out there got a DIY recipe for ballistic jell-o?

[Ol' Badger]

Edit for one person.

[Raistlin]

CATS!

The natural Balistic Jelly.

*sigh* There's always someone... :rolleyes: :barf:

Moderators, would you please close this one?

[esheato]

This is what I do. I spend ungodly amounts of time filling plastic bags with water, stack them all in a box and shoot them. Compare distance penetrated, expansion and velocity. Shoot bullets in lots of 3 for comparison. Not the most scientific test, but it's easily done at home or at the range.

I put all the info into a excel spreadsheet creating graphs. I photograph all the bullets and put the images and respective information into Word for keeping. I also keep binders full of the data and projectiles. I've tested nearly everything in 9mm and .45 (minus Pow'rBall and a few others), next is .380.

Needless to say, it's just slightly more than a hobby.

esheato...

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL60/919855/1686534/27359837.jpg

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL60/919855/1686534/27359830.jpg

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL60/919855/1686534/27359783.jpg

[Ol' Badger]

Thats an awsome idea! Eveything you need can be made at home! Do the bullets mushroom up on the water bags?

[esheato]

Yes, they open up very nicely. Of course it depends on the construction of the bullet, but sometimes they work, sometimes they don't...here's some more pics of what they look like when they open up.

Taurus Copper 230grn in .45....all 3 bullets looked like this.
http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL60/919855/1727876/20392012.jpg

PMC Starfire 230grn in .45...all 3 bullets looked like this.
http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL60/919855/1727876/20390700.jpg

Black Talon in 9mm.
http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL60/919855/1727987/20390666.jpg

Speer Gold Dot 124 +P in 9mm
http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL60/919855/1727987/20389216.jpg

esheato...

[Snowdog]

I've been using the same 50 or so pounds of playdough for about four years now, kept fresh in a 5 gallon bucket. Textbook expansion with relative penetration. I've posted several pics primarily on TFL, though some here as well.



esheato,

I must pipe up and say your photography is excellent work!
Good job.

[280PLUS]

i may have to steal,,,i mean "borrow" your ideas

the royalty check is in the mail, of course,,,

:D

[P95Carry]

esheato .... good pics ...... interesting too how on Starfire and Gold Dot..... and due I guess to the medium .. it is quite apparent that bullet rotation has produced a slight ''swirl'' as the thing opened up.

[280PLUS]

why theyre called "black talons"

very interesting stuff

m

[Newton]

esheato

Make sure you post your .380 pics when you have them. I'm hoping for a comparison of the 102gr Golden Sabre and the 90 grain Hydrashok out of a 3 inch tube.

Your testing is excellent.

[esheato]

Thanks for the compliments.

i may have to steal,,,i mean "borrow" your ideas

Not my idea...Dr. Martin Fackler of the IWBA is the genius behind this. I just ended up taking it to the extreme.

interesting too how on Starfire and Gold Dot..... and due I guess to the medium .. it is quite apparent that bullet rotation has produced a slight ''swirl'' as the thing opened up.

Yes, some of the bullets have a obvious swirl to the way the 'petals' of the HP opened up. It's actually, quite interesting.

The information that I have from the IWBA, states that 1.8 inches penetration in water bags equals 1 inch (+-) in ballistic gellatin. The Taurus Hex bullet in the photo above penetrated to 24, 22.5 and 27 inches; for an avg of 24.5 inches. 24.5 / 1.8 = 13.6 The Hex bullets should penetrate approximately 13.6 inches in ballistic gellatin. Ammoman lists the same cartridges in calibrated ballistic gellatin penetrating to 11.8, 12.6, 13, 12.4 for an avg of 12.45 inches. Difference of 1.15" between my water penetration and calibrated lab testing. I don't think that's all that bad to see the results yourself.

Like I said, it's not the most scientific test, but it's a start.

esheato...

[TonyB]

OK my idea was LAME......I'll try the bags of water...awesome pix and idea,thanks!!:cool:

[esheato]

OK my idea was LAME......I'll try the bags of water...awesome pix and idea,thanks!!

Don't be to hard on yourself. Try it, see what happens. If it doesn't work, add water. If that doesn't work, put them in something, try different materials....don't just change ideas because this is what I do...do what you want.

esheato...


NEWTON , this is the .380 comparison you asked about. BBL length 3.5" Bersa.

Pic of my excel spreadsheet that feeds the graphs (I didn't include the graphs). It's pretty self-explanatory. Bullets listed at top, with information following below. Three shots tested for each bullet. Bullets are numbered from the top down (first shot, second shot, third shot) Of some interest, you can see the direct relationship between penetration and expansion on the second GS as it didn't expand yet penetrated much deeper than the other two shots (1 and 3). Kinetic energy on the table is in ft/lbs.
http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL60/919855/1804614/38170756.jpg

90grn Hydra-Shok shot from left to right.
http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL60/919855/1804614/38170735.jpg

102grn Golden Saber shot from left to right.
http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL60/919855/1804614/38170717.jpg

[P95Carry]

Great pics and info again .......... any theories as to why or how that 2nd GS did not expand ... ??

I'd assume that if the cavity got the full benefit of hydraulics then it'd have to expand! So ... possible reasons?

[esheato]

I'm not sure why the second GS didn't expand.

My notes from the day I shot it (3Oct03) are: good velocity (850.5 fps) but still the slowest of the 3 shots by at least 14 fps...can't tell the difference between this and the other two shots, but this bullet didn't expand...???

Sometimes, the bullets will take different courses through the water, and only penetrate the corners of the bags...not sure how or why that happens, but sometimes it does...that's why I do 3 shots, and use averages for the graphs; to throw out wild numbers like that.

esheato...