[usnavymasterchief]

This and other forums seem geared toward bigger is better and if you're not tottin' a .45acp you aint tottin' at all. I must admit that through 65 years of life, 32 of which were spent in the military, I too felt that you had to carry a huge "fight stopper". I'm beginning to change my mind. My main carry for several years has been a Kahr K40 which I dearly love but I recently purchased a LNIB Colt Mustang Pocketlite .380acp and it is really comfortable to carry. Yeah, right, I've heard the old axiom that concealed weapons are supposed to be comforting and not necessarily comfortable. B.S. I say, why must we have a gun butt in the ribs or a muzzle sticking into your leg when you sit down or have the piece slide up and the grip stick out when you sit down, dammit I'm old I can't stand up all day.? I wear my Colt Mustang in an Uncle Mike's size 10 IWB holster but I wear it outside the waistband and clipped on under my belt, I never know it's there. It doesn't ride up or stick into me when I sit down, I never have to make "give away" adjustments, it stays put all day long.
I have run about 100 rounds thru the little beauty and she runs 100%. What I really would like to hear are some personal, knowledgeable opinions on the worth of the .380acp as a self defense weapon. There are so many decent .380's on the market lately, Seecamp, Kel-Tec, Bersa and just about every major manufacturer has a .380 in their line up, even Glock and Sig, so there must be some worth to the .380 or manufacturers would have stopped making them years ago. I made a totally stupid mistake about a year ago when I sold a cherry (pre S&W) Walther PPK .380, simply because of what I had read on other forums about how poor the .380 was as a personal defense weapon, now I wish I had kept it, much like I wish I had kept the '36 Ford 3 window coupe I had when I was 17, oh well.
How about the so called "hot-rod" ammos like Cor-Bon, Glazer, RCBD and Mag-Safe who says their stuff will turn your .380 into a .45, again I say B.S. to Mag Safe I just don't believe it. Right now I carry Winchester 85gr Silvertips in my little Colt, I must admit to wanting some Cor-Bons however.
Should I feel adequately protected while carrying the .380 or should I stick it back in the safe and will it to my Grandson so he can sell it after I kick off?
Seriously, is the .380acp worth a dam? I think it is.

[priv8ter]

Hi. I'm not the kind of guy that can quote energies and muzzle velocities too you, but what I can do is share my thoughts and opinions.

As a federal employee, I can't carry at work, so I don't get to carry near as much as I want to. So, I never feel comfortable...it always feels like I'm printing even if my wife says she can't see the gun.

I've found the biggest thing I can carry without feeling really conspicuos and making the 'giveaway adjustments' that you are talking about is a Firestorm .380.

I feel totally okay carrying it. I mean, if open carry was okay, would I carry a .45? YES! But, this is the real world, and .380 is the biggest thing I can carry with out giving myself away.

I trust a well-designed .380 H.P. to do the job if I can put it in the right place.

Currently, the Firestorm my wife carries is loaded 90gr Federal Hyrda-Shok's. I don't have any experience with the 'Hot-Rod' loads. The Core-Bon Power-Balls sound promising, but the are pricey...I tried the Hydra-shoks, and the feed okay, so why waste money on something else. I trust my wife's life on them, so I really can't give a bigger vote of confidence than that.

[ChickenHawk]

I see yet another religious-war thread about to happen, so I'm going to get my .02 in early! :D

I know a ton of people who say they won't carry anything smaller than a 9mm. That seems to be the threshold caliber for a lot of people.

Personally, I wouldn't want to be shot with a .380ACP or even a .32ACP !

Likewise, I have a strong feeling that if I shot somebody with my Kel-Tec P32 (which I carry frequently) or my Bersa Thunder .380 (OK, I don't really have that yet, but I will this weekend!) then that guy is going to STOP and make no further advance. How's that for a polite way to put it.

I guess much of the consideration is how you dress and how you plan to conceal your handgun. Whatever you carry will make you a lot safer than not carrying at all.

Cheers,
ChickenHawk

[PCRCCW]

Id say more had to do with placement than caliber.........a well placed shot with a .380 is gonna do damage and stop the aggresion. A badly placed shot with a 454 Casull will not.
A well placed shot with a 9mm is probably better....................
Shoot well......................

[10-Ring]

I'd think it would depend on how much you put into the equation. If you practice well with it, use modern defensive ammo & can shoot it fairly well, the 380 should be okay. Yes, a bigger caliber would be better, but you're better off w/ a 380 than something even smaller or nothing at all.

[P-35/53]

Placement is very important- I know of two cases of a 380 being used for 1 shot stops. One person had a shot gun being swung up on him and he fired one shot hitting the solar plexus. Instant stop and kill. The other was a head shot agin one shot and a stop.

[cordex]

If you're comfortable with it, go for it.

I'd hate to get into a gun fight using any handgun of any caliber. However, a handgun is better than nothing, and if you'll carry a .380 when you would otherwise have gone unarmed, it's better to have the little gun than not have a gun at all, yes?

I don't have any problem with carrying a 1911 in .45, so I do.
Other times I require deeper cover, and I've got a little snubby for that.
Still other times, I carry both.

[rock jock]

One of the gun rags two years ago had a story about a woman confronted outside her home after she exited her car stopping the BG w/ one shot of .380. Personally, I think it is a fine round for a deep-concealed carry gun, but that is about the threshold of minimum power.

[DontShootMe]

Speer gold dots - very hot, very hard, very fast.

Cor-Bon - just like the Speer's but even HOTTER (plus a huge fireball)

The bore is the same diameter as 9mm, 38, 357

When I carry my Bersa as a primary, I do not feel under armed one bit.

About the only thing I wouldn't do with my .380 is the same thing I wouldn't do with my 9mm (or .38, or .357) - and that is carry FMJ's

[Copperhead]

I feel very comfortable carrying my PPK/S .380 and my NAA Guardian .380. I can place 8 shots in a 3-4" group at 7 yrds. with my PPK as fast as I can pull the trigger and make head shots at 15 yrds.. Both guns have never had a FFT and feed my carry round Cor-Bon 9o gr. ammo.

I have many handguns including two .45's which I think are great guns, but just two heavy for me to carry with comfort.

I don't trust any handgun to provided One Stop Shoots. At 7-15 yrds. a good .380 is enough for me. I will be shooting until any attack is stoped and SHOT PLACEMENT is my primary goal.I go to the range once a week and know I can protect mysel with the .380 .

[VG]

A friend of mine used to work as a JAG at Fort Bragg. He was assigned to investigate the case of a paratrooper who was shot in his car with a .380. The bullet went through his femur and lodged in the door. He would have bled to death if a medic hadn't happened by, purely by chance, and stopped the bleeding and called for help.

When he expressed surprise at the amount of damage done by the round, the detective told him, "this is the first time I've ever had a shooting with a .380 where the victim lived."

That a 9mmP, .40S&W, or .45 ACP might make someone 20-50% more dead has always seemed pretty academic to me. I hope none of us ever has to find out.

[cordex]

That a 9mmP, .40S&W, or .45 ACP might make someone 20-50% more dead has always seemed pretty academic to me.
There is no question that .380 (or .22LR, or a .177 pellet) can kill a bad guy just as dead as .45 ACP or a 20mm cannon. If you hit 'em right, and/or they cannot get treatment, that is.
The question is: "what will that bad guy be able to do to me before they decide to stop?"

[Dr.Rob]

It's a destructive cartridge, with a habit of not penetrating enough when it hits heavy bone. If it went THROUGH a femur, I'd suggest it was an FMJ.

I've seen up close what 90 gr federal Hyrdashock can do to an animal, if you get through the ribs you can kill with it.. but a hit against the pelvis or leg bone will create a shallow "cratering" wound.

There is a pretty good argument for carrying FMJ in a 380 for this reason. Penetration gets to vitals.

The last time I THOUGHT I needed a gun, all that was available was my .380, a pistol I am conident with, and have killed a large animal with. Suddenly I wanted my 45.. hell I wanted a bazooka.

The 380 is good, but I feel more confident in a 9mm/45/357.

The Colt is a great pistol.. though I found shooting lead bullets in it 'snappish'.. maybe is the barrel axis to the bore and the extra grip of lead in the rifling.. unpleasant to shoot.

Some gun is better than none.. and while I shoot/handle my FEG better than the Colt, the Colt IS smaller, better for concealing a pistol. the sights on my Colt are.. lacking. The FEG's small sights were corrected with a drop of flourescent sight paint.. point it like a shotgun. Trying to figure out how to get this effect with the Colt without cutting the front sight.

[SirVette]

The legendary stopping power of the 45 was based on ball, round nose & FMJ. The data I have seen from Evan Marshall shows 380 HP comparable. The 380 FMJ was only about 15% lower which may explain the differences of opinion on FMJ.

Anyway it's not the tool ...

:cool:

[rde]

I am comfortable with 380. No, it is not as "efficient" as larger calibers in terms of penetration and pure shock/knockdown factor which, yes, means that an attacker may be able to remain combat effective longer which is, of course, bad. BUT, I temper that against some things:

First it has demonstrated that it can be used effectively in self defense (by many law enforcement agencies outside of the US in countries where "military" calibers were or are still not allowed for use outside of the military itself), Bad guys are bad guys. Many bad guys have been dropped by 380s all over the world). Key here is not AS effectively or effeciently as larger calibers.

There are some well made very accurate 380 caliber handguns such as the Sig 232, Beretta Cheetah (series), PPK, and (yes) the Bersa/Firestorm. **A good gun is a good gun.
A lot of people have a lot less trouble learning to shoot a 380 accurately and effectively than they do learning to shoot with larger caliber handguns (no real reason why..perhaps since it is a smaller caliber they are simply more relaxed about perceived recoil when learning how to shoot..I don't know. But I have seen it quite a bit at the range).
**A good gun that someone can shoot accurately and effectively is a good gun.
A lot of people will carry a good 380 that is smaller, lighter, and easier to conceal when they would otherwise not carry at all (yes, I know we are getting into the realm of midget 9s and 40s but some people just aren't comfortable with such high pressure rounds coming out of such a small package...nor the increased recoil that goes along with that).
**A good gun that someone can shoot accurately and effectively that they have with them when they need it is a good gun.

And the TRUMP CARD. One shot stop analysis is not for the real world. Shoot once, stop, see if it worked, if not shoot again, is a ticket to a dirt nap. A good gun that someone has with them that they can shoot accurately and effectively is a good gun and should be fired into the threat as many times as it takes to eliminate the threat period. Doesn't matter if it takes 1 with a 45, 2 with a 40, 3 with a 9, or 4 with a 380. Solve the problem no matter how few or many shots it takes. Just solve the problem.

Yeah, I like the 380. To each his/her own.

[cordex]

The data I have seen from Evan Marshall [...]
Heh ...
Can you really say that with a straight face?
Sorry ... I just can't take that fellow, or his pal seriously.

Sometime look through what "data" they collected, how they supposedly collected it and then look through at inconsistancies.

In my book, the legend of OSS is BS.

[Preacherman]

To me, the .380 is a "borderline" round. It's almost as powerful as the .38 Special (standard loads, that is - obviously .38 +P is more potent), which means that of the "mouse calibers", it's the one that comes closest to meaningful stopping power. However, its "street" record is spotty - it works sometimes, and doesn't work at other times. I personally regard it as a backup round, not a primary defensive round. I own .380's, and like them, but I don't feel properly armed when I'm carrying only a .380. It's the same way I feel when I'm carrying only a .38 snub-nose revolver - it's barely adequate, but in a real fight, I'd want to be carrying a caliber of rather greater potency.

Now, as a backup gun, it has real promise. Using a SIG 232, or a Kel-Tec P3-AT, to back up one's primary weapon, makes an awful lot of sense. The .380's are typically small enough to conceal in pockets, ankle-holsters, etc.

[Marcus]

The .380 certainly has it`s place. My carry guns are 9mm or larger but my wife couldn`t shoot any of them worth a darn. I found her a nice Colt Gov`t .380 that fits her perfectly,with a nice SA trigger pull that her small fairly weak fingers can easily manage. She can easily manage it and best of all she makes good hits with it *every time*. I`s sooner see her able to fire 3 accurate rounds of 90gr.Win. FMJ flat nose than 1 of .45ACP way off target. Marcus

[P95Carry]

Yep - I think ''borderline'' is my thinking on it .... but when bigger gets just too much hassle to keep concealed then .... the Thunder will still have me feeling some semblance of security, as would the SP-101 even with just 38spl HydraShoks.

And I too am rather much in the FMJ camp with this cal.



Chicken .... not long to wait eh dude ........ be interested to see how you like it.

[rde]

BTW..have recently picked up the Bersa Thunder myself..and it is "a good gun." :)

[ChickenHawk]

Chicken .... not long to wait eh dude ........ be interested to see how you like it.
Soon, soon, soon.

Must .. go .. to .. range. ;)

ChickenHawk

[JohnKSa]

Ok, a little devil's advocate.

2. In the vast majority of gun use for self defense the gun is never fired. Any gun in any caliber, therefore, is a very significant deterrent.

2. The odds of being involved in ANY kind of self-defense situation with a gun are very small. Therefore the odds of being in self-defense situation which actually requires firing the gun are miniscule.

So...

Following this train of thought, the odds are that it will never make a hill of beans difference which caliber gun you carry.

Which also means that there is no way I'm going to ruin clothes and belts or wear oversize clothes or be uncomfortable my ENTIRE life so that I can carry a big gun when the odds are HUGE that it will never make any difference what kind or caliber of gun I carry.

On the other hand, I'm not going to intentionally carry a gun that is useless or completely ineffective--that would be foolish.

There is absolutely no grounds to say that a gun chambered in .380 is useless or ineffective. In fact, as pointed out the .380 is a deadly round.

So...

1. It's a gun--that is sufficient deterrent for most situations.

2. If used properly with good ammunition it is capable of incapacitating with a single shot.

Which gets us to:

If you want to carry a .380, practice with it, choose your ammunition carefully and then carry a .380. Don't let someone's personal opinion make your life miserable over something that is extremely unlikely to ever really be a factor in real life.

[usnavymasterchief]

JOHNKSA, what you say makes sence to me. You opened avenues of thought that I hadn't even considered, that being. that the odds of ever being in a self defense situation are very small. Excellent advice.
Thank you all for your comments, I appreciate every one. Guess I'll continue to carry the Colt.----------John

[1911Tuner]

JohnK and the Masterchief are on the right track. I'll toss in a few
more.

Since the situation will likely occur at arm's length out to maybe
7 feet, match-grade accuracy isn't going to be much of an issue
if you do your part.

There's at least an even chance that your attacker will be armed with
a knife or bludgeon, which requires that he get close. In very close quarters, you won't have the time nor the opportunity to achieve a textbook firing stance, whichever you favor. You may not even have the opportunity to get two hands on the gun if you are fending off an attack with one while backpedaling.

Since you will fight the way you train yourself to fight by repetition,
practicing at 5 feet with one arm extended and firing from the hip may be a worthy exercise. (Be careful not to let your extended arm cross the muzzle please...or you will be engaging in another type of exercise shortly with a physical therapist shortly.) firing from a close-to-body weapon retention position may also be something to consider.

Practicing shooting tiny groups on a paper target at 25 yards will make
us all better marksmen, but that probably isn't the way it'll go down if
and when it does.

Food for thought...
Tuner

[Newton]

380ACP is an excellent round for concealed carry, because it ENCOURAGES concealed carry for those individuals who find larger, more powerful guns too much hassle to tote around all day. And a lot of people fall into that category. I also happen to be a fan of the .32ACP for similar reasons.

As for effectiveness, I think a good load like the Federal 90 grain Hydrashok is capable of surprisingly effective terminal ballistics, other loads in the Hydrashok line up are very anaemic for caliber, but for some reason Federal gave their .380 a stiff charge of powder, go figure. I'm sure that the Corbon and Gold Dot are good loads too, but the 380 Hydrashok has shown to be have a good mix of penetration and expansion and certainly seems to be more powerful than the commercial FMJs I use alongside it in my own range sessions, it provides a comforting thump and a nice "donut" of muzzle flash (not desirable but strangely comforting).

As for guns in which to carry the .380, I personally think that the Kel Tec P-3AT is one of the few genuine advancements in handgun technology that we've seen in the last 20 years. The size vs. firepower ratio for this gun when it's loaded with 7 Hydrashoks is impressive, and is enough to put anyone in a world of hurt. As for ease of carry, well, I've always thought that the best carry method is coat or pants front pocket, and that is what this gun was made for.

So, .380ACP, is it any good. Well I wish everyone carried one, let's put it that way.

[1911Tuner]

at powder-burn range, fired into the lower abdomen and groin area 5-6 times rapidly would make anybody except maybe the Incredible Hulk
turn loose and head for the nearest hospital.

I've got friends who look down on the cartridge, but so far, I've
had no takers to volunteer as test dummies. No...It's not a
"combat" round. It wasn't designed to be. It was designed and
intended to chamber in small, light, handy autopistols. There are
some very nice little pistols out there that will take the cartridge,
and it will serve well in close range, personal defense.

Think of it as an Emergency Rescue Team that has a 2-second
response time.

Cheers!
Tuner

[foghornl]

I am not a fan of the .380, but I look at it this way...If it is what you have, are proficient with it, and it is on hand when things go poo-poo, well then, "run whatcha brung".

[cordex]

I've got friends who look down on the cartridge, but so far, I've
had no takers to volunteer as test dummies.
Probably won't find a bunch who'll let you shoot them with a pellet pistol either.
Does that make .177 the ultimate defensive caliber?

[1911Tuner]

Who said aything about ultimate? My point was that it shouldn't
be underestimated. What was yours?

[cordex]

My point was that it shouldn't
be underestimated. What was yours?
My point? I thought that was obvious.
That a calm, rational person's refusal to let you shoot them with a particular gun/bullet/caliber does not imply anything about that given tool.

I don't like getting cut, scraped or otherwise injured with sharp things and would vociferously oppose any attempt at flailing me with a thorn bush, but in a discussion of defensive tools, you wouldn't be likely to bring up thorny plants as good defensive tools just because I'd rather not be beaten with one, right?

"A doesn't like to be injured with B, therefore B is suitable for defending myself against a raging, attacking, violent C." is irrational.

.380 may be a great defensive caliber. Has a lot of great things going for it, especially the size of weapons that shoot it.
But it doesn't make sense to use silly logic to support it, eh wot?

[1911Tuner]

:rolleyes:

[CZ52GUY]

...http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38specialor380acp.htm

The link above is a good discussion of .380 ACP which provides an objective viewpoint without the "religious overtones" ;) .

His reviews of the Makarov, Bersa Thunder and CZ-83 (a 9x18 and two 9x17's) all speak to the pro's and con's of < 9x19 autoloaders.

Best wishes,

CZ52'

[Dave R]

FWIW, I did my own testing of terminal ballistics using wet newsprint media and throw-away denim to simulate clothing.

The .380 102gr Golden Sabre expanded reliably with up to 5 layers of denim in front of the newsprint. Penetrated about 8-9".

The 9mm load (115gr. Silver Tips) expanded reliably to 7 layers of denim, and penetrated about 10-12" in the media.

Looks to me like .380 is about 70% of a 115 gr. 9mm. Is that good enough for you?

[CZ52GUY]

...http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=185135&highlight=WOUND+BALLISTICS

In the end...I'm not sure that luck doesn't exceed caliber in importance.

Stay safe,

CZ52'

[tbeb]

I carried a 12-shot .380, loaded with Silvertips, for 8 years. I started with Silvertips and stuck with them because they were 100% reliable, and a good choice back then. Today I'd probably choose the Corbon JHP. I just reverted back to a snub .38 for one reason or another. Anyhow, I consider .380 caliber equal to .38 special caliber(from a snubby) as a manstopper.

[Peter M. Eick]

I think the 380 has a place for the simple fact that it can be packaged in a small totable gun. I normally carry a 9mm P7PSP and there are times that is just to big to be easily concealable. My little colt gov380 steps up to the plate in these situations.

As it has been said many times, it is about shot placement. I can put the 380rounds where I want so I am comfortable with them. Sure I liked to carry a 10mm but sometimes what I like and what is reasonable do not work out.

[horge]

Slight shift of topic:
What about .380 headshots?

Does anyone know if a .380 JHP headshot likely produces reliable stoppage? I mean, I used to feel assured of it (with PMC Starfire or Remington Golden Sabre), but some pontifications online would have me believe otherwise...

I mean, even with fairly hard bone to deal with, the concussion has to be a consideration at a minimum. Or wouldn't it be?


Thanks,
h

[JohnKSa]

There's a reason you won't find combat schools or LE practicing head shots except with rifles. Maybe the Special Forces types do, but that's probably with specialized equipment.

Not only are heads relatively small, the move around a lot and therefore are hard to hit.

Worse than that, some of the densest bone in the body is found in parts of the skull.

Even the face, which isn't all that sturdy, has a lot of odd shapes and open cavities which tend to do funny things with expanding bullets. Like deflecting them in strange directions or even causing them to fail.

A friend of mine recounts a story from his youth about a fellow who was a mean drunk. In one altercation he was shot in the center of the forehead with a .38 special revolver. Due to the slant of his forehead and the sturdiness of the frontal bone, he was only knocked down. When he immediately got back up (a bloody mess, but otherwise none the worse for wear), the shooter decided that running was a better course of action.

All that to say that shooting someone in the head with a .380 probably isn't all that great an idea. But then shooting someone in the head with anything other than a magnum caliber pistol probably isn't all that great an idea period.

[horge]

I copy that.
Thanks, John.