Mosin-Nagant M1891/30, I need some info


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devildog32713
January 9, 2010, 01:10 AM
I am interested in purchasing a Mosin-Nagant M1891/30, possibly from this website:http://http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Russian_1891_30_7.62x54R_Mosin_Nagant_Rifle.html

I will be primarily using this weapon for target shooting, Deer hunting, general toss around, carry in the woods gun. I would like some pros and cons for all of he above. From the bench, say with Sellior and Bellot ammo, how tight could I get a grouping? Is your bolt really sticky/finicky, or smooth, I hear a lot of conflicting arguments there. All first hand users, gimme some info, Is this buy a good one? This surplus site seemed to offer the 91/30 about as cheap as I could find it. And they state it is in Excellent Condition. Also, anybody purchased from this website? I would like some reviews on them too, thanks all.

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Deus Machina
January 9, 2010, 01:28 AM
That's a pretty good price for Nagants right now, especially with all the accessories. AIM is a good seller.

Pay the extra for a hand-pick. It's worth it.

Me, I like to check all the ones at gun shows. If you have to pay for shipping and transfer from AIM, you may as well just pay the little extra at a show and be able to check it yourself.

Down to the info: the reason you hear so many arguments about Nagants is because there are tens of millions of them. Literally. No hyperbole.

My M44 is as accurate as I am, with the right ammo. A friend's scoped 91/30 can keep every shot in the 1.5"-by-3" 'center of mass' bullseye on the local range's targets at 100 yards. His M44 could hardly keep all the holes in the paper at 50.

On any Nagant with a good bore, expect around 3- or 4-inch groups, if you can do your part. Don't immediately blame the barrel if you get larger; the sights are cludgy at best. I expect one with a good barrel would drop to 2 or 3 inches with better sights, but maybe I've been lucky.

No Nagant's action will be as smooth as most other bolt-action's. It's the way everything works. It moves in 'chunks'. Nature of the beast. But my M44 is smooth and solid, my friend's junk M44 was as good as Nagants get, and his nice 91/30 is a little sticky with steel-cased ammo. I think that's more because of a rough chamber.

As for the uses, target shooting is fun but not a tack-driver, they make great trunk guns (Ivan probably used it to pound tent stakes into Siberian permafrost, you are not going to break it), but I would want something a little faster to fire if you're carrying it to protect from bear attacks or something.

A good Nagant makes a great hunting rifle IMO, but you're limited on your choices of hunting ammo unless you reload.

The biggest thing to remember with Nagants is to clean it quickly after shooting surplus ammo, and thoroughly when you first get it. Cosmoline is wicked stuff, and is the leading cause of Sticky Bolt Syndrome.

stickhauler
January 9, 2010, 01:49 AM
And that price is about as cheap as I've seen for them. The action and bolt of most any of them seem sticky, until they're cleaned up. Remember, these rifles were re-worked in the arsenal after WW-II and dipped into cosmoline and put away in storage boxes, until you get the cosmoline out of the parts, they are not going to be a slick working firearm.

You plan to use it for target practice, and possibly hunting? Might not be a bad choice for target practice, hunting and such you might want to think about a bit. That rifle is quite long, and not a light rifle at that. I doubt you'd want to carry that cannon around the woods too long.

You have to have the bayonet installed for it to shoot as accurately as possible, and that adds another foot of length to it. The S&B ammo is going to be a lot more costly than surplus ammo, but it's not corrosive I think, so you'd have a little less work cleaning it after shooting it. Really, cleaning it up from shooting corrosive ammo isn't that difficult. I'd guess S&B is about as much as Prvi Partizan, AIM sells that for $11.50 a box of 20 rounds compared to surplus Yugo ammo for $3.95 for a 15 round box. Just wash it out with Windex fairly soon after shooting it to cut the corrosive stuff before you clean and oil the gun.

Yes, they're pretty accurate, even with iron sights. You might want to invest in a rubber butt pad for it, those things kick like a mule.

Of the major surplus sellers I've dealt with, AIM was far and away the best I ever did business with. Yep, I'd buy it, Mosin's were considered to be a "soldier proof rifle", even uneducated soldiers could learn the rifle quickly, and become fairly proficient with it. And built so tough they couldn't break it easily.

ccsniper
January 9, 2010, 02:01 AM
I have had 3, now at two probably one more in two weeks. You will have to completely disassemble the rifle and clean it out with oven cleaner (If a russian conscript can do it anyone who can count their finger should be able to do it). I love them, I don't find the recoil in the 91/30 too brutal but in the m44, it is quite a bit more. I have one made in 1944 that apparently never saw combat, it gets 2" groups using czech practice ammo and irons. It shot no more than 3" groups with russian surplus. If you get one, go with hand select it is worth it. If you can find one look down the barrel, some will look aweful but a lot of it is cosmoline. My 91/30 I took home a couple of months ago looked almost like a sewer pipe, I got it home and cleaned the hell out of it and underneath all that cosmo was a absolutely beautiful rifled barrel. My brother and I shot a 3 inch long fence lizard that happened to run across our targets with it (he had the mosin I had the PSL, and we both nailed it at the same time).

M2
January 9, 2010, 10:41 AM
I've got nine Mosins with two more inbound, they are very addictive (I only got my first one in October!). The deals at AIMSurplus are probably the best you'll find online outside of private sales. I ordered a hex-head from them (not handpicked) and got a nice 1930 Ishevsk delivered to my door for $105.

If you are going to get serious about collecting these, I would highly recommend getting a C&R (03 FFL). You can download easy instructions on how to do it here (http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/howtogetyourcurionrelicffl03/pdf/howtogetyourcurionrelicffl03.pdf). For $30 and a little paperwork, you can have a three-year license to have these old milsurp rifles (a list of which can be found in ATF Pub 5300-11 (http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-11/atf-p-5300-11.pdf) (6MB download)) sent directly to your door. All you have to do is maintain a bound book of your C&R acquisitions and sales. It's really simple and convenient, and there's nothing cooler than the UPS guy delivering a firearm to your door!

Two good websites for information on the Mosins are 7.62x54R.net (http://7.62x54r.net) and Mosin Nagant.net (http://www.mosinnagant.net/).

Oh, and I find milsurp 7.62x54R locally for $7.95 for 20 rounds...

Other than that, I have to agree with everything Deus Machina said, only to add that the Finns I have tend to be a bit more accurate than Mosins from other countries. Unfortunately, those cost quite a bit more...

Cheers! M2

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 9, 2010, 10:46 AM
my M91/30 shoots best without the bayonet attached, it shoots to the left when it is attached.

devildog32713
January 9, 2010, 11:15 AM
Pay the extra for a hand-pick. It's worth it.

Thanks, I wasn't sure about that.
A good Nagant makes a great hunting rifle IMO, but you're limited on your choices of hunting ammo unless you reload.



I've found some Sellior&Bellot 7.62x54R hunting rounds, from $20 a box to $32 a box. I'll use Surplus or Brown/Silver Bear for target practice.
The action and bolt of most any of them seem sticky, until they're cleaned up. Remember, these rifles were re-worked in the arsenal after WW-II and dipped into cosmoline and put away in storage boxes, until you get the cosmoline out of the parts, they are not going to be a slick working firearm.


So would I clean it like I would with any other firearm? Or is there special instuctions for cleaning Military Rifles that have cosmoline in them? This would be my first Surplus Military firearm, so I really wouldn't know.
You plan to use it for target practice, and possibly hunting? Might not be a bad choice for target practice, hunting and such you might want to think about a bit. That rifle is quite long, and not a light rifle at that. I doubt you'd want to carry that cannon around the woods too long.

The weight isn't a issue for me, neither is the length.

The S&B ammo is going to be a lot more costly than surplus ammo, but it's not corrosive I think, so you'd have a little less work cleaning it after shooting it. Really, cleaning it up from shooting corrosive ammo isn't that difficult. I'd guess S&B is about as much as Prvi Partizan, AIM sells that for $11.50 a box of 20 rounds compared to surplus Yugo ammo for $3.95 for a 15 round box. Just wash it out with Windex fairly soon after shooting it to cut the corrosive stuff before you clean and oil the gun.


I'll only be using Sellior&Bellot for hunting, not for targets, I'll use some surplus for that. Where can I get the $3.95 a box surplus ammo? And I need to use Windex in the barrel for cleaning it after shooting corrosive ammo? Could you give me more specific instructions? Thanks

If you are going to get serious about collecting these, I would highly recommend getting a C&R (03 FFL). You can download easy instructions on how to do it here. For $30 and a little paperwork, you can have a three-year license to have these old milsurp rifles (a list of which can be found in ATF Pub 5300-11 (6MB download)) sent directly to your door. All you have to do is maintain a bound book of your C&R acquisitions and sales.
I know about this, but this is the only C&R rifle I plan on buying in the near future, and the transfer fee would be cheaper.


And does anybody know if there is any difference between Nagants made in the Tula arsenal vs. the ones made in the Ishevsk arsenal? Thanks for all your insight!

M2
January 9, 2010, 11:52 AM
As for the Tula vs. Ishevsk, the former are more common; but realistically there isn't much difference between the two that I have experienced...

19-3Ben
January 9, 2010, 01:33 PM
Clean up is a little different than most production guns. Most production guns use a light oil/grease that cleans up easily. I've found that the cosmoline that they used to pack the Mosins is harder to remove.

I usually disassemble the whole bolt, put the parts in a pot of boiling water, and boil them. this will get rid of most of the cosmo. Then I pop them in the oven at about 225degrees to let them dry thoroughly.
Then scrub them with a toothbrust dipped in mineral sprits.

I also pour mineral spirits into the chamber and let it pour out the muzzle. You'll see it comes out brown. A couple of mineral spirits soaked bore patches go down the barrel. I pay extra attention to cleaning out the chamber with the toothbrush. Only way to avoid sticky bolt is to get that such CLEAN.

It sounds like a lot of work but it's not bad considering that you just bought a rifle for $80 that will last you a lifetime and then last the next 3 generations though their lifetimes as well.

mannac
January 9, 2010, 01:33 PM
That's a good deal at aimsurplus. But you might be able to get one cheaper locally. They're $100 here and go on sale for $85.

I bought a 440rd ammo can from aimsurplus for ~$90 6 months ago but they were out of them last I checked. I see they have some slav stuff in brass for cheap now. For corrosive ammo I use windex as an added step in cleaning, but I clean it after every time I shoot. The ammonia neutralizes the corrosive properties of the primers.

As for cleaning, there's really nothing too special. Just get in every nook and cranny. Disassemble the bolt completely to make sure you get everything out and oil properly. There's videos on youtube to show you the tricks with the bolt. I've heard of some people soaking their stocks in automatic transmission fluid to get rid of the cosmoline but I haven't confirmed that myself.

You don't want to have the bayonet fixed when shooting with the m91/30 as someone else mentioned. That only applies to the shorter carbine models.

19-3Ben
January 9, 2010, 01:34 PM
Oh, some say diesel, oven cleaner, or brake cleaner are as good as mineral spirits. I prefer mineral spirits but to each his own.

stubbicatt
January 9, 2010, 01:38 PM
I really enjoy my Mosin Nagant rifles.

I enjoyed them much more at 7 cents a round, but those days are gone now.

Recoil is not so bad.

Even if you can't sell yours for whatever reason, a total loss isn't too much of a kick in the shorts.

19-3Ben
January 9, 2010, 01:39 PM
No such thing as total loss. If it doesn't sell as a gun, you can sell it as a boat anchor!

(edit to add: that's not a knock on Mosins. I love my 3 Mosins and thanks to this thread I am temped to get a fourth.)

XxWINxX94
January 9, 2010, 01:46 PM
I own 2 Mosin-Nagant rifles. An M91/20 and an M44 Carbine. Both are extremely reliable and affordable rifles to shoot/own. I got my Mosin for just over $120 at a local gun shop. The ammo (7.62x54R) is extremely cheap and there are abundances of it everywhere. When buying a Mosin you should always check to make sure it's intact, functional, the numbers match, and for the history buffs out there; the Soviet Union emblem is easily visible. When it comes to WWII guns, alot of guys are sometimes picky when it comes to the year, to make sure the gun has "seen combat". Almost all WWII-Era bolt rifles are very accurate guns but I can't give you any numbers for a Mosin. The ammo is cheap enough so you can play around with it all you want :D. I would have to say that the only bad things about these guns are the recoil, but that's easily fixed with proper shooting technique.

rust collector
January 9, 2010, 01:49 PM
Here is a site of possible interest: http://7.62x54r.net/

and another I enjoy: http://www.surplusrifle.com/russianmosin189130/ammunition.asp

These are fascinating rifles. They are perhaps the last vestige of the golden era of milsurps that started in the 50's and is rapidly winding to a close.

19-3Ben
January 9, 2010, 02:42 PM
I would have to say that the only bad things about these guns are the recoil, but that's easily fixed with proper shooting technique.

I would say that recoil is harsh with the M44 and M38. The 91/30 isn't bad it all, especially once you hang the heavy bayonet off the muzzle end.

BurningSaviour
January 9, 2010, 04:33 PM
Be forewarned if you register on 7.62x54R.net.... they do not tolerate ANY sort of alterations, whether it be a Bubba job, restoration, or even bringing a Bubba'd rifle back to its original configuration. Replacements for broken parts is a different matter.

As for the 91/30, they're great rifles. Be prepared to do a bit of cosmoline removal. If you have a curtain steamer, this is a good way to go, and you'll usually find that removing it will lighten up the colouration of the wood a good bit.

AIM Surplus is a reputable dealer. I concur... the extra $10 for hand pick is well worth it. I did that when I ordered a 91/30 in December, and ended up with a very nice ex-Dragoon.

I currently own five MN rifles. A 1948 Izhevsk M44, a 1938 Izhevsk 91/30 ex-Dragoon, a 1915 double SA stamped New England Westinghouse M1891, a 1943 Izhevsk 91/30, and a 1942 VKT M39.

devildog32713
January 9, 2010, 05:44 PM
I've shot a Mauser that supposedly had "seen combat" thanks for all the info.
I would say that recoil is harsh with the M44 and M38.
No biggee, I shoot Magnum 00 buckshot outa my synthetic stocked Mossberg, recoil isn't really a deal, neither is weight, Im just concerned about the reliablility, and accruacy, and everyone here as confirmed what I have already learned. I plan to look at a local gun show first, maybe a few shops, if I cant find a good one, then Im going to AIM surplus, thanks everyone, if you have any other info, feel free to tell me. I love learning about guns, best kinda of learneing in my opinion. :D

TomADC
January 9, 2010, 06:35 PM
I'm kinda hoping that my local Big 5 doesn't put them or one of the other MN on sale tomorrow, not sure how I'm going to explain another one to the wife.

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