Caracal polymer pistol has less parts than glock


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Full Metal Jacket
January 9, 2010, 06:03 AM
anyone seen this. i just happened on to it during a google image search. not sure about the looks, but it sounds kinda interesting. thought i'd share :)

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/CaracalF.jpg

it was developed in the united arab emirates, and has only 28 parts :eek:

http://www.defensereview.com/uae-caracal-pistol-series-caracal-f-and-caracal-c-where-are-they/

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REAPER4206969
January 9, 2010, 06:41 AM
On 15 January 2009 Caracal received an export licence from the United States, which will enable it to ship its products to the United States.[6] According to Caracal's commercial director Saeed Ali Al Shamsi, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms gave its approval for sales in the United States in May 2009 and the company plans to embark on a soft launch of the firearms in America in 2010 with the handguns selling for up to USD 720 (AED 2,650) in North America.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caracal_pistol

REAPER4206969
January 9, 2010, 07:02 AM
Good find BTW. Something I have not seen before.

Nowhere Man
January 9, 2010, 07:04 AM
Other than the tan inserts on the grip, I kinda like the looks of it. Sorta ""CZ75ish"".


Dave

REAPER4206969
January 9, 2010, 07:24 AM
Same designer:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/SteyrM9.JPG

Quiet
January 9, 2010, 09:23 AM
It's true, the people who designed the Steyr M series also designed the Caracal series for the UAE.

The Steyr M series was suppose to be a refinement of the Glock pistol and the Caracal is suppose to be a refinement of the Steyr M series.

REAPER4206969
January 9, 2010, 11:07 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwccqe7E_8o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSw9TdTLtpI

MAKster
January 9, 2010, 11:42 AM
Frankly I think the design of the gun is less important than the quality of the manufacturer. You could have the most innovative and efficient design but if the people building it have poor standards and quality control it is meaningless. Can anyone name a single product that is manufactured in the United Arab Emirites?

high voltage
January 9, 2010, 12:00 PM
I hadn't seen this but I count 19 parts (including the mag) in this picture alone..

REAPER4206969
January 9, 2010, 12:08 PM
Can anyone name a single product that is manufactured in the United Arab Emirites?
The U.A.E. is an extremely advanced nation.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Dubai_Montage.png

REAPER4206969
January 9, 2010, 12:27 PM
What does Croatia make that's better? Everyone here loves the HS2000 (XD).

19-3Ben
January 9, 2010, 12:49 PM
Let's not lump UAE in there with the likes of Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc...

Different mentality over there. Reaper is correct. They are an advanced, more open style of country. Don't let the name fool you.

Full Metal Jacket
January 9, 2010, 01:21 PM
the united arab emirates is quite the impressive country. they seem to be building one engineering marvel after another.

i would certainly check this pistol out. maybe even buy one if it's quality.

mljdeckard
January 9, 2010, 01:25 PM
I wasn't aware that the number of parts in a Glock was a problem to begin with.

REAPER4206969
January 9, 2010, 01:31 PM
I wasn't aware that the number of parts in a Glock was a problem to begin with.
It's not.
1. The design has to be self-loading.

2. The pistol must fire the NATO-standard 9x19mm Parabellum cartridge.

3. The magazines would not require any means of assistance for loading.

4. The magazines must have a minimum capacity of 8 rounds.

5. All actions necessary to prepare the pistol for firing and any actions required after
firing must be done single-handed, either right- or left-handed.

6. The pistol must be absolutely secure against accidental discharge from shock,
stroke and drops from a height of 2 m onto a steel plate.

7. Disassembly of the main parts for maintenance and reassembling must be possible without the use of any tools.

8. Maintenance and cleaning of the pistol must be accomplished without the use of tools.

9. The pistol's construction may not exceed 58 individual parts (equivalent of a P38).

10. Gauges, measuring and precise testing devices must not be necessary for the long-term maintenance of the pistol.

11. The manufacturer is required to provide the Ministry of Defence with a complete set of engineering drawings and exploded views. These must be supplied with all the relevant details for the production of the pistol.

12. All components must be fully interchangeable between pistols.

13. No more than 20 malfunctions are permitted during the first 10,000 rounds fired, not even minor jams that can be cleared without the use of any tools.

14. After firing 15,000 rounds of standard ammunition, the pistol will be inspected for wear. The pistol will then be used to fire an overpressure test cartridge generating 5,000 bar (72,518 psi) (the normal maximum operating pressure Pmax for the 9 mm NATO is rated at 2,520 bar (36,550 psi)).[5] The critical components must continue to function properly and be up to specifications, otherwise the pistol will be disqualified.

15. When handled properly, under no circumstances may the user be endangered by case ejection.

16. The muzzle energy must be at least 441.5 J when firing a 9mm S-round/P-08 Hirtenberger AG.

17. Pistols scoring less than 70% of the total available points will not be considered for military use.

REAPER4206969
January 9, 2010, 02:00 PM
http://www.caracal.ae/web//images/products/thumb/SC/SC-2L.jpg

REAPER4206969
January 9, 2010, 02:10 PM
http://www.caracal.ae/web//images/products/C-C-B/C-C-5.jpg

REAPER4206969
January 9, 2010, 02:28 PM
http://www.caracal.ae/web//images/products/C-C-B/C-C-7.jpg

19-3Ben
January 9, 2010, 02:39 PM
I don't get it. What's with the read sights? Why on earth wuld you put them so far forward and ruin having a decent sight radius for more accurate distance shots. ("long range" as pistols go).

Full Metal Jacket
January 9, 2010, 03:07 PM
:eek:

REAPER4206969
January 9, 2010, 03:19 PM
Compact model (Glock 19/23 size)
http://www.caracal.ae/web//images/products/C-C-B/C-C-6.jpg
http://www.caracal.ae/web//images/products/cc2.jpg

MAKster
January 9, 2010, 03:49 PM
Reaper you have a rather high regard for a gun that it's even available in the U.S. Do you have a connection to Caracal or its importer?

REAPER4206969
January 9, 2010, 04:12 PM
I just learned about this pistol from this thread. I'm just posting what I find about it.

Full Metal Jacket
January 9, 2010, 04:59 PM
Reaper you have a rather high regard for a gun that it's even available in the U.S. Do you have a connection to Caracal or its importer?

huh? i'm the OP, and i simply posted it as i find it interesting, as do many others...

NoScreenName
January 9, 2010, 06:15 PM
28 parts eh?

That's still one more than a Makarov. :D

Ascot500
January 9, 2010, 06:26 PM
I like it because the top of the slide is not flat, it's radiused - just like JMB intended.

iiibdsiil
January 9, 2010, 06:29 PM
This looks like it might be an option for those that want a Steyr M9. Damn thing is hard to find as soon as I want one.

Full Metal Jacket
January 9, 2010, 08:50 PM
interesting construction:

http://www.caracal-consulting.com/caracal-pistol-pictures/bv000002.jpg

Full Metal Jacket
January 9, 2010, 08:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSw9TdTLtpI&feature=player_embedded


video of the caracal. thing seems to hardly kick.

jon_in_wv
January 10, 2010, 09:09 AM
Having less parts than a Glock isn't that big of a deal. Most people people count the parts of a Glock at 34 but that isn't really an honest count. Several of the "parts" are sold assembled and actually consist of more than one part.
Part #8 spring cups (two parts)
Part #3+4 recoil rod/recoil spring (on the supbcompacts is actually 4 parts.)
Part 16a (A? Front sight +1 part)
Part 25a/b (I believe you would add +2 if you have the NY trigger)
Part #26 trigger and trigger bar (is actually 4 parts, trigger, trigger safety lever, trigger pivot pin (the pin that attaches the bar to the trigger), trigger bar.)
Part 32a (A?? that should be another part)
I think there are one or two other small parts and if you really want to be picky you could count some of the molded in parts like the slide rails that are molded into the plastic frame and the metal sleeve in the magazine body. Regardless that adds 5 to the total parts count giving it 39 for the full sized and 41 for the subcompact. The next gen with the removable backstraps will add even more to the count.
What does this mean? Nothing. I just think its fair to be accurate. Some people throw the low parts count (which at 39 is still pretty danged low) around like it proves that Glocks are better than other weapons. If that was the case than a Makarov is a better weapon than a Glock. Its a great weapon but its not better than a Glock. If you throw out non-functioal parts like grips and grip screws on the 1911 you get very close the parts count of the Glock. What does that mean? Nothing really.
Just food for thought.

http://gunbuilders.info/uploads/images/Diagrams/pd_glock_sm.jpg

REAPER4206969
January 10, 2010, 09:13 AM
Parts count does not really mean anything. However some military contracts have a maximum number of parts to qualify. That's why pistol companies make a big deal about it.

ultradoc
January 10, 2010, 09:17 AM
less parts=easier to clean?

U-235
January 10, 2010, 09:39 AM
Quoting 19-3 Ben:

I don't get it. What's with the read sights? Why on earth wuld you put them so far forward and ruin having a decent sight radius for more accurate distance shots. ("long range" as pistols go).

I noticed the same thing. In some of the pictures the rear sight is in front of the ejection port giving a very short sight radius. What would be the advantage of this?

REAPER4206969
January 10, 2010, 09:45 AM
less parts=easier to clean?
Less expensive and easier to manufacture and maintain, less parts to break, you can make more pistols with less material use in a "total war" situation, Etc.

RedLion
January 10, 2010, 10:31 AM
^^^It also makes advertising much easier.

Jason_G
January 10, 2010, 07:10 PM
http://capitolmuseum.ca.gov/uploadedImages/grinding_rock_stone.gif


:neener:

Jason

jon_in_wv
January 10, 2010, 07:17 PM
less parts=easier to clean?

Not necessarily, the basically field strips just like any other semi-auto. Cleaning a Glock is just like cleaning one of them.

You don't even need to clean the stone. It works just as good dirty. From what I hear, Glocks are more reliable though.

nwilliams
January 10, 2010, 08:27 PM
First time I've seen one of these, I like it!

Full Metal Jacket
January 14, 2010, 09:59 PM
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/Caracalbrochure003.jpg

http://www.caracal.ae/web//images/products/cf1.jpg

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/671898.gif

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/champop1911/Decorated%20images/Caracalbrochure005.jpg?t=1263607567

REAPER4206969
January 14, 2010, 10:04 PM
Good find.

Full Metal Jacket
January 14, 2010, 10:08 PM
thanx, i think this topic is too interesting to fall to the bottom

Kingofthehill
January 14, 2010, 10:20 PM
I really like the looks of this. Not to mention my Steyr M9 is my favorite polymer gun, it makes this gun really stand out to me.

Would love to get my hands on one of these... Would be nice to see them come over

JOe

Manco
January 14, 2010, 10:56 PM
The Caracal's internal structure--sort of an integrated steel subframe--reminds me of the M&P's in a way. Those slide guide rails have an awful lot of contact area, though. Maybe that's a good thing, I don't know, but it would seem to make the slide more susceptible to sticking from crud building up in there. :scrutiny: Any thoughts?

Full Metal Jacket
January 14, 2010, 10:58 PM
^^^interesting inquiry.

however, it has been issued in various parts of the middle east (where the air is filled with sand) for several years now with great success.

google it, and check out the feedback.

ckone
January 15, 2010, 02:35 AM
Anyone know when they'll be available in the US?

I want one bad, it's a Steyr M-A1 with WAY simpler trigger clockwork, which I bet equals pure awesomeness!

Full Metal Jacket
January 15, 2010, 02:38 AM
^^^type in caracal pistol on google. there's a lot of info. i think it's tangfolio or EAA that will be importing them. read somewhere it's coming in a few months. :)

REAPER4206969
January 15, 2010, 03:25 AM
Maybe someone should call EAA and ask?

Tel. (321) 639-4842

michiganfan
January 15, 2010, 06:12 PM
I like that stock and foregrip combo.

jigglyjames29
January 15, 2010, 07:56 PM
^ me, too. It's too bad we can't legally put either on the gun without paying $200.

The subcompact is thinner than full size and compact versions.... yet the subcompact accepts the S and F mags!
I'm wondering why they didn't make the F and C models thinner as well...

Kingofthehill
January 15, 2010, 08:46 PM
Ive seen the stock for glocks and even the Steyr's but this one with the foregrip just looks AWESOME... well worth the 200 stamp IMO.

JOe

REAPER4206969
January 15, 2010, 08:50 PM
but this one with the foregrip just looks AWESOME... well worth the 200 stamp IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11fcg543Jow

Kingofthehill
January 15, 2010, 08:56 PM
Seen it before but never noticed the foregrip on that one.

I guess it would be my choice on the feel of the quality of attaching it. If it felt loose or unsecured i wouldn't use it. I also couldn't imagine using all that much force on the foregrip when using the shoulder stock.

just my opinion.

JOe

hogshead
January 15, 2010, 09:01 PM
Bringing up u235 whats up with the sights? In one pick they are on the rear of the slide in the next they are in front of the ejection port.

tekarra
January 16, 2010, 07:01 PM
A lot of good products are being made in the Emirates. They have successfully lured a number of manufacturers and are producing good quality products using modern equipment and foreign labour.

Kingofthehill
January 16, 2010, 11:35 PM
Fingers crossed i get to pick one up..

JOe

tekarra
January 17, 2010, 08:10 PM
King,
Waiting for a range report and photos.

REAPER4206969
January 17, 2010, 08:14 PM
Fingers crossed i get to pick one up..
It has a Glock grip angle.

Kingofthehill
January 17, 2010, 08:19 PM
Get over it. I own glocks, Steyr's and would love to own this one.

Fact is, i don't care for the angle or the wierd BUMP at the bottom of the glock grip.

But you make it a point to find another post of mine to bump this and take a little jab?...

Idiot...

JOe

REAPER4206969
January 17, 2010, 08:31 PM
But you make it a point to find another post of mine to bump this and take a little jab?...

Idiot...

http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_smartass.gif

Kingofthehill
January 17, 2010, 09:05 PM
I apologize for calling you an Idiot... I just don't understand why someone would follow my posts trying to find a contradiction.

I also don't like when someone trys to lump 1 group of people together.

JOe

REAPER4206969
January 17, 2010, 09:37 PM
I'm not "following your posts". Have you seen all my posts in this thread? I've been reading it since the beginning.

Chuck Perry
January 18, 2010, 09:13 AM
These will be even more interesting two years from now when CDNN has them on closeout...

REAPER4206969
January 18, 2010, 09:09 PM
LOL.

Full Metal Jacket
February 24, 2010, 12:09 AM
2 new company video added! pretty interesting! (found by reaper^^)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E50Z_yjpHcI


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dn7uXLiPc98

Full Metal Jacket
February 24, 2010, 12:42 AM
:D:D:D

pbhome71
February 24, 2010, 01:08 AM
Nice video. I love the range that they used in the presentation.

Good find....

Full Metal Jacket
February 24, 2010, 01:23 AM
hardly any muzzle flip...

CPshooter
February 24, 2010, 01:42 AM
The subcompact is thinner than full size and compact versions.... yet the subcompact accepts the S and F mags!
I'm wondering why they didn't make the F and C models thinner as well... Maybe I'm wrong, but from what I'm seeing there are only two models available: a full-size (F) and a compact (C). I haven't seen or read anything about a thinner sub-compact model. Can someone fill us in?

I think this pistol looks really neat, but I still feel that the Steyr M9/40-A1 looks much better. Considering they were designed by the same guy, I'd be willing to bet they handle very similarly.

Full Metal Jacket
February 24, 2010, 01:44 AM
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/Caracalbrochure003.jpg

CPshooter
February 24, 2010, 01:57 AM
So I take it there is no "sub-compact" like one of the previous posters thought?

I hope this pistol makes it to U.S. shores. I'd like to get my hands on one and give it a try.

CPshooter
February 24, 2010, 02:10 AM
Ok..looks like there is a SC model that was introduced last year. Found some good info on Wikipedia:

"The Caracal SC has been introduced at the IDEX 2009 exhibition on 22 February 2009. The SC model has a reduced length, height and is technically somewhat different compared to the other Caracal pistols. The manufacturer markets the SC model as a primary weapon for government professionals who must conceal a handgun for job related situations, or as a secondary back up pistol.[1] According to Caracal's managing director Hamad Khalifa Al Neyadiof, the new SC sub-compact model has fewer screws giving a smooth surface, allowing for a more efficient assembly and a better quality build. The SC model can also use the larger detachable box magazines of the C and F models, giving a magazine capacity of up to 18 rounds of 9 mm ammunition.[11] According to Jane's the SC model has a separate safety switch located beneath the trigger guard, rather than on the trigger itself. A special grip adapter that has been developed for the Caracal SC has to be used for using the larger magazines from other 9 mm Caracal weapons. The SC model also has a solid synthetic striker, resulting in reduced manufacturing costs and a very smooth action. The synthetic unit will be introduced to the F and C series later this year.[12] The SC magazines are offered with a standard flat bottom or a slightly developed magazine with a finger rest for extra grip.[1]"


Sounds like there is some sort of external safety switch underneath the trigger guard on the SC variant. I don't know if this is a passive or active type safety. It wouldn't make much sense to put a manual safety on a sub-compact model that is intended for concealed carry. At least I don't like manual safeties on my carry weapons...

The "synthetic striker" also sounds bad to me. I don't know how a plastic striker/firing pin is supposed to hold up. It mentions that the synthetic striker reduces manufaturing cost. Cutting corners is never a good thing IMO. I guess we'll see.

Full Metal Jacket
February 24, 2010, 02:20 AM
SC

http://www.caracal.ae/web//images/products/C-C-B/C-C-6.jpg

REAPER4206969
February 24, 2010, 02:22 AM
That looks like the "C".

REAPER4206969
February 24, 2010, 02:23 AM
Has anyone called E.A.A. yet?

Tel. (321) 639-4842

Full Metal Jacket
February 24, 2010, 02:30 AM
i think this is the c

http://www.caracal.ae/web//images/products/cc2.jpg

not 100% though, hard to tell from these pics.

Full Metal Jacket
February 24, 2010, 02:31 AM
Has anyone called E.A.A. yet?

Tel. (321) 639-4842

can you call? they'll prob say "greetings reaper! we've been eagerly awaiting your call!" :what:

i'm too lazy to do it myself....

REAPER4206969
February 24, 2010, 03:56 AM
I'm shy...

Full Metal Jacket
February 24, 2010, 04:05 AM
laziness trumps shyness

Taurus_9mm
February 24, 2010, 09:03 AM
It and the Ruger SR9 could be siblings. :D

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/CaracalF.jpg

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/ruger_sr9_2.jpg

GoodKat
February 24, 2010, 10:13 AM
I think the compact model looks pretty good.

Jbabbler
February 24, 2010, 10:25 AM
I like the "unit designator" grip inserts. I'm curios to know which sights the final production gun will have as well.

mgmorden
February 24, 2010, 01:22 PM
This is a very interesting looking gun IMHO. Parts count isn't a be-all and end-all measure of a gun, but fewer parts IMHO is a good thing when it can be done. Just like lines of computer code when programming - things can be done with fewer or more, and it might be just as reliable either way, but fewer is easier to maintain and is fewer chances for things to break.

Also, though it's a completely subjective matter that has no functional purpose, IMHO a Glock is one of the least visually appealing handguns I've ever seen. This on the other hand is quite attractive :).

If they come at under $600 for the full-size I'll look into them.

Zerodefect
February 24, 2010, 01:28 PM
Whats up with the goofball sights??? 1.75" sight radius.......yeah, that'll work.

Why are they bragging about long rails? I thought shorter rails were proving to work better for reliability as the polymer gun flexes. Long slide rails were for solid steel frames I thought?

Can I get the insert in Neon Green?

The Wiry Irishman
February 24, 2010, 01:49 PM
I don't know, but it could be that the goofy sights are designed to be used with the shoulder stock. With a stock on a pistol its going to be much closer to your face than if its held at arm's length and consequently the front sight will take up much less space in the rear sight notch. If the sights were moved forward of the ejection port, sight radius would decrease, but at least they might be able to give you a workable sight picture with a stock on the gun.

CornCod
February 24, 2010, 02:10 PM
I wish them well, but 700+ bucks is a little high for a new pistol that is trying to get a share of a very comnpetitive market. Give it a price like an SR9 and folks may want to take a look at it.

Fastcast
February 24, 2010, 02:36 PM
I wish them well, but 700+ bucks is a little high for a new pistol that is trying to get a share of a very comnpetitive market. Give it a price like an SR9 and folks may want to take a look at it.

Yes, I couldn't agree more with this comment......I'm not a polymer guy but it's an interesting piece and fun thread to follow. The Youtube videos were neat as well. This pistol does appear to have a mild recoil in the videos, except for the limp wristers of course.

mgmorden
February 24, 2010, 02:53 PM
I wish them well, but 700+ bucks is a little high for a new pistol that is trying to get a share of a very comnpetitive market. Give it a price like an SR9 and folks may want to take a look at it.

It might not be that much. It quotes "up to $720", but there are several issues there.

1. They might be talking MSRP. Quite often street prices are 20-25% under MSRP.
2. "Up to" suggests that there will be certain features and and upgrades (stainless slides maybe, target sites, etc) that can up the price over a base model.
3. Less popular calibers might sell for more than the 9x19mm.

We could very well see a $400 street price on a base-model plain-jane version and higher priced versions with other features.

Full Metal Jacket
February 24, 2010, 03:48 PM
It and the Ruger SR9 could be siblings.


i'll take the caracal, thanx.

SsevenN
February 24, 2010, 05:23 PM
I'll take two please...

Deaf Smith
February 24, 2010, 06:46 PM
Ok. So we have ANOTHER 9mm 'wonder' pistol.

So tell me, what great advance do we have?

It holds the same number of shots. Puts out the same bullet and the same velocity. Reloads the same way. Hits just as hard (or weak depending on how you look at it.)

So tell me, what is the great leap forward? Less parts?

Let us know when they develop a 9mm size round that takes off at +.357 velocities, holds more ammo, is lighter, more accurate, and less expensive.

Then I'll say that is revolutionary and worth retiring up my Glocks.

Full Metal Jacket
February 24, 2010, 06:51 PM
....um lowest bore axis of any autopistol? even less parts than glock....kinda impressive, wouldn't you say?

(watch the first video i posted)

SsevenN
February 24, 2010, 08:43 PM
Anyone get solid information regarding the import of this gun? Someone mentioned EAA...

Full Metal Jacket
February 24, 2010, 09:12 PM
EAA's the importer.

http://www.tanfoglio.it/upload_dinamici/immaginid/2009/CARACAL-NEWS.jpg

Full Metal Jacket
February 25, 2010, 12:19 AM
ok, found a pic of the subcompact, and the dimensions:

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/attachments/defensive-carry-guns/17521d1267072875-new-caracal-polymer-pistol-has-less-parts-than-glock-super-c.jpg

Weight: 22.93 oz
Height: 4.4"
Width: .9"
Capacity: 13+1

http://defensenews.com/blogs/idex/2009/02/25/caracal-shows-off-small-9mm-semi-auto-pistol/



less than an inch thick, and still holds 13 rounds--very impressive!

REAPER4206969
February 25, 2010, 01:27 AM
Great update.

Taffnevy
February 25, 2010, 10:40 AM
I'd buy one of the compact models.

SsevenN
February 25, 2010, 11:20 AM
FMJ, any idea when they will be released over here for civilian sales?

Full Metal Jacket
February 25, 2010, 11:25 AM
FMJ, any idea when they will be released over here for civilian sales?

i'm not sure, my friend. someone could call EAA to find out (they're the importers).

i'd like to buy one too! :)

Kingofthehill
February 25, 2010, 11:48 AM
SO i called EAA. The rep didn't know anything about it and put me on hold to find out. Very nice and she took my info down and said she will try and find out what she can and call me back.

We'll see..

JOe

Full Metal Jacket
February 25, 2010, 11:51 AM
^^^hey alright! good job. keep us updated. (finally someone not too lazy or shy to call lol)

SsevenN
February 25, 2010, 12:11 PM
My thoughts exactly! Thanks Kingofthehill, keep us posted!

ForumSurfer
February 25, 2010, 12:47 PM
OMG it's hideous! :barf:

I've seen it on wikipedia before and thought it was interesting. I'd like to see some tech sheets on it as that bore axis seems to be really low.

I'm new to the polymer game as I have always preferred 1911's. I recently bought my first glock to see what all the hullabaloo was about. I've shot them in the past and found them to be accurate. I've just got to retrain my muscle memory to bring that front sight down lower when I'm drawing my brick, er I mean Glock.:rolleyes:

I'd like to see this UAE piece in person one day and see how it handles. It has to be under $500 for a "base" model full size or I personally wouldn't touch it. And $700? for that price I can have a glock or an xd with cash left over for several accessories to boot.

axeman_g
February 25, 2010, 12:53 PM
Me thinks a starting price of $350 - $400 would serve this pistol well at first.

Full Metal Jacket
February 25, 2010, 02:29 PM
Design details

Features

The Caracal is a fully ambidextrous polymer framed pistol that features an ergonomically designed grip with a rounded butt and a grip angle of 111į.[1] The lower forward edge of the frame has a mounting-bracket or rail interface system for mounting accessories.[7] The pistols low slide profile design holds the pistol barrel axis close to the shooters hand and makes pistols more comfortable to shoot by reducing muzzle rise and allows faster aim recovery in rapid shooting sequence.[8] This low bore axis principle is also found in the Glock and Steyr M pistols.

The metal slide guide rails are designed to be as long as possible to promote stability, by reducing torsion and flexing of the grip frame, during firing and a close fit between the slide and grip frame for plenty direct mechanical interaction between the slide and grip frame. Furthermore the rails beeing part of the frame sub assembly that bears all internals, it is easier to assemble the mechanism for manufacturing or disassemble for maintenance and replacement.

The pistols have a fully supported chamber and fixed iron sights. The pistol can also be supplied with grip inserts in several distinctive colours that can be used for identification purposes.[8]

The metal parts receive a proprietary "Plasox" plasma based surface treatment producing an oxidation protective coating resistant to aggressive environmental conditions.[9][10] The manufacturer claims that this proprietary protective coating method is relatively environmental friendly, very durable and protects well against rust.[8]

According to the manufacturer the 28 parts and components these pistols are made of are interchangeable for easy production and maintenance. A take-down lever allows the pistol to be disassembled without tools by the user.

Operating mechanism

The Caracal is a striker fired semi-automatic pistol, meaning the trigger system is of the hammerless short double action only type. A cocking indicator below the rear sight indicates visibly and tactilely if the pistol is cocked and ready to fire. The trigger travel is 8 mm (0.31 in) with a trigger pull of 22 N (4.9 lbf).

Safety

The pistol features a triple safety system that secures the weapon against accidental discharge and consists of three independent safety mechanisms: an external integrated trigger safety and two automatic internal safeties – a firing pin safety and a drop safety.

SsevenN
February 25, 2010, 03:09 PM
Yeah, I'm in for an "F" and "C" model, sounds like a fantastic pistol!

John Parker
February 25, 2010, 03:17 PM
Heeeeeere kittty kitttty kittttty!!!!

Ah...photo load FAIL!

mgmorden
February 25, 2010, 03:29 PM
Me thinks a starting price of $350 - $400 would serve this pistol well at first.

For that price I can assure that one of these is as good as gone for me. I'll buy one in a heartbeat. No idea why, but there's just something I find appealing about this gun (and is it bad that I've been wondering if the unit markers/grip inserts come in purple?).

Only possible negative that I've heard, though it may just be a case of getting used to it like polymer frames, is that someone on another board reported that the striker itself was polymer (possibly with a metal insert for the firing pin). Not sure if this is true, but if so it does give me some pause. If it works though, then it works.

Full Metal Jacket
February 25, 2010, 04:05 PM
yeppers! i want one too!

you guys think Glock is sweating yet? lol

Full Metal Jacket
March 1, 2010, 01:23 PM
Hey kingifthehill, have u heard back from EAA on an importation date?

John Wayne
March 1, 2010, 04:31 PM
Let us know when they develop a 9mm size round that takes off at +.357 velocities, holds more ammo, is lighter, more accurate, and less expensive.

It's called the 9x25 Dillon, although you don't get as many rounds in a comparably sized mag as with 9x19.

I like the gun. It's not new or revolutionary, but it does look to have several good features. Low bore axis, fewer parts to break, rounded top of slide...the accessories are cool even if we won't get to use them in the US.

REAPER4206969
March 1, 2010, 05:20 PM
the accessories are cool even if we won't get to use them in the US.
SBR's are perfectly legal in most states.

REAPER4206969
March 1, 2010, 05:21 PM
Glock has a similar factory stock BTW.

Kingofthehill
March 1, 2010, 07:32 PM
Sadly no, I have not heard back. Haven't had a chance to call back either.

Maybe i'll do it on a lunch break or something.

JOe

REAPER4206969
March 1, 2010, 07:46 PM
Way to take one for the team!

Full Metal Jacket
March 1, 2010, 08:09 PM
you got reaper all riled up now! :)

John Wayne
March 2, 2010, 12:08 AM
SBR's are perfectly legal in most states.

Ok, the accessories are cool even if most consider it too much paperwork to enjoy them in the US.

Prince Yamato
March 2, 2010, 01:12 AM
I want that neck hook thing. Can that be marketed as a non -NFA accessory? Please? "It's not a forward grip Mr. ATF agent... it's a neck hook... you know... for sporting purposes... "

Full Metal Jacket
March 7, 2010, 11:30 PM
two very interesting caracal company videos!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E50Z_yjpHcI&feature=player_embedded


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dn7uXLiPc98&feature=player_embedded

Full Metal Jacket
March 7, 2010, 11:47 PM
a different variation of the subcompact:

Caracal SC sub-compact pistol, with fibre glass front sight insert and magazine with a finger rest for extra grip:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e7/Caracal_SC.JPG



caracal safety instructions:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/waterhouse/safety.gif

REAPER4206969
March 8, 2010, 12:47 AM
Good job keeping this updated FMJ.

bds
March 8, 2010, 01:30 AM
Sounds like there is some sort of external safety switch underneath the trigger guard on the SC variant. I don't know if this is a passive or active type safety. It wouldn't make much sense to put a manual safety on a sub-compact model that is intended for concealed carry.

I think that's the take-down levers to remove the slide.


My interest in this pistol/company is growing for the fact that now Glock HAS to incorporate and surpass the features from other manufacturers for their Gen5 models. Sandy conditions with fine (almost flour like) dust particles is a great test bed for firearms. If Caracal do well in the sandy/dusty environment, it should do well elsewhere.

Competition improves the breed and I am all smiles here.


I read somewhere that production cost to make a Glock was around $75. If this company wants to corner the market (I thought the fully automated production/assembly features were to lower the production/retail cost), $399 would absolutely do it. Not sure how they would MSRP the pistols, but they have serious competition in the $400-$600 range. If they come in just below this area, it would be no brainer buy for customers.

Really looking forward to the range report and introduction price.

REAPER4206969
March 8, 2010, 01:51 AM
My interest in this pistol/company is growing for the fact that now Glock HAS to incorporate and surpass the features from other manufacturers for their Gen5 models. Sandy conditions with fine (almost flour like) dust particles is a great test bed for firearms.
What features does this pistol have that the Glock does not? Are you really suggesting the Glock has problems in sand? Are you aware that the Iraqi military and police is the largest single user of Glock pistols in the world? Glock even has a factory/importer/repair facility in the U.A.E.

bds
March 8, 2010, 02:06 AM
REAPER, you are talking to a Glock fan :D

Competition improves the breed and I am all smiles here.

What I meant is that all the competition Glock has (XD, M&P, G2 and now Caracal) will simply improve the polymer gun industry as a whole. As Glock added features to Gen4, next generational models (Gen5) will probably have more features to compete with other manufacturers.

What's wrong with that?

REAPER4206969
March 8, 2010, 02:09 AM
What's wrong with that?
The Glock is fine the way it is. What more can you ask of it?

bds
March 8, 2010, 02:31 AM
The Glock is fine the way it is. What more can you ask of it?

Don't want to deviate from OP, but many:

- Ambi-slide release that you don't have to adjust your grip to reach
- Improved true ambi mag release, not just interchangeable
- Fully supported/tighter chamber
- Adjustable grip angle inserts/back strap perhaps (I can accommodate to Glock grip angle fine, but many do complain).

REAPER4206969
March 8, 2010, 03:04 AM
- Ambi-slide release that you don't have to adjust your grip to reach

There is no reason to use the slide stop lever as a "slide release." The overhand tug is ambi.
- Improved true ambi mag release, not just interchangeable

Ambi push button mag catches are unnecessary and unreliable. Glock has discontinued theirs.
- Fully supported/tighter chamber

This will reduce reliability. Do you know why Glock's are so reliable?
- Adjustable grip angle inserts/back strap perhaps (I can accommodate to Glock grip angle fine, but many do complain).

Grip angles can not be changed without major redesign of the firearm. As to the backstraps, Glock has already done it, even though I find them unnecessary as well... .....

bds
March 8, 2010, 03:08 AM
- Ambi-slide release that you don't have to adjust your grip to reach

There is no reason to use the slide stop lever as a "slide release." The overhand tug is ambi.

- Improved true ambi mag release, not just interchangeable

Ambi push button mag catches are unnecessary and unreliable. Glock has discontinued theirs.

:eek::eek::what:

dom1104
March 8, 2010, 09:20 AM
I am trying to figure out why a pistol that comes from EAA <wonderfull support there> made by an middle eastern country <definatly no chance of issues with that> that is competing against one of the most rock solid reputations and prolific pistols in the world is something to be excited about?

I am not feelin it.

Full Metal Jacket
March 8, 2010, 02:45 PM
- Ambi-slide release that you don't have to adjust your grip to reach: slingshot it. it's a "slide stop", not a "slide release".

- Improved true ambi mag release, not just interchangeable: ok, maybe this one for the lefties.

- Fully supported/tighter chamber: not necessary if you shoot factory ammo. also would diminish reliability.

- Adjustable grip angle inserts/back strap perhaps (I can accommodate to Glock grip angle fine, but many do complain): not wanted by most shooters as the glock gen3's are the most popular pistols in the world. interchangeable backstraps were made for the whiny american consumer.

Skillet
March 8, 2010, 06:02 PM
It seems to have design elements from a mix of other pistols. First it looks like a CZ 75B, then it looks like a Glock, then it looks like a Ruger SR9, and on goes the list.

It's a MUTT!!

dayid
March 8, 2010, 06:35 PM
- Ambi-slide release that you don't have to adjust your grip to reach: slingshot it. it's a "slide stop", not a "slide release".Surely you're not going to make this thread go into explaining how some manufacturers tell you specifically not to slingshot, vs others that tell you to - and how it is a slide release on many firearms, hence the checkering along it for ease of thumb press-downward, etc... Surely, right?;)

REAPER4206969
March 8, 2010, 06:44 PM
some manufacturers tell you specifically not to slingshot
Any pistol manufacture that recommends against the overhand tug makes crappy fighting pistols. Kahr/Nighthawk/whatever.

Full Metal Jacket
March 8, 2010, 08:44 PM
^^^yep.


my local range showed me one of their rental glocks where customers generally use the slide stop. the notch in the slide is worn to a curve, instead of a sharp corner to snag the slide stop, so they have to file it to a sharp edge every so often.

however, eventually this will not work (you can only file so much) and they'll have to send it to glock for a new slide under glock's rental program for dealers.

this is another reason slingshotting is better for autopistols.

bds
March 9, 2010, 12:15 AM
Sorry for leading the thread off tangent - plenty other threads for that.


As to OP, I really think Caracal pistols have something going. Really can't wait for a range report; or better yet, shoot one in person. :D

REAPER4206969
March 9, 2010, 12:27 AM
I really think Caracal pistols have something going.
+1...

sprocket rocket
March 9, 2010, 01:38 AM
People already complain about XD's being made in Croatia. A gun made in the Middle East will be quite a turn off for them. Anyone else notice how GmbH is printed on the slide in the Caracal video? I think Caracal clearly knows where their guns are made and the hurdles they need to climb to sell their gun.

REAPER4206969
March 9, 2010, 02:37 AM
I agree. A pistol marked with "MADE IN THE U.A.E." will have trouble selling in the Western world. That is why it will read "MADE IN AUSTRIA" ;)

Full Metal Jacket
May 3, 2010, 10:04 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwccqe7E_8o&feature=PlayList&p=59F85D93EF663964&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=45

Full Metal Jacket
May 3, 2010, 10:38 PM
A gun made in the Middle East will be quite a turn off for them.

how so? are you going by a few posters on these internet forums? 99% of gun owners do subscribe to forums. nor do they fill their cars with petrol from the middle east, and then refuse to purchase a pistol solely based on it's country of origin (who is one of our allies, by the way) ;)



People already complain about XD's being made in Croatia

yet they sold like hotcakes initially (not so much anymore), despite being designed by by john doe in a 2nd world country not known for arms manufacturing.

blackrussian
May 3, 2010, 10:56 PM
So, any news on when it may be available? Soft launch dates?

REAPER4206969
May 3, 2010, 11:09 PM
how so? are you going by a few posters on these internet forums?
The Caracal will never take off if it's marked and advertised as being made in the UAE. The importer will have to do to it, what SA did to the HS2000. It appears this is already taking place as the videos show Germanic markings.

Full Metal Jacket
May 3, 2010, 11:22 PM
It appears this is already taking place as the videos show Germanic markings

those markings are only on the prototypes, and stem from it's testing phase of production:



Before being put into production the Caracal pistol was evaluated through independent tests. These tests were carried out by the Federal German Armed Forces Technical Center for Weapons and Ammunition (WTD 91) in Meppen, Germany[2] which included metallurgic and composite analysis, functional fitness-for-purpose and quality evaluation, endurance firing, environmental exposure, safety and accuracy tests. A certificate was issued by the Bundeswehr Technical Center for Weapons and Ammunition (WTD 91) in May 2006 after the pistol successfully complied with the NATO D14 standard, the German Federal Police Standard and the German Federal Armed Forces Technical Purchasing requirements. These tests are the most stringent test protocols ever devised for a service firearm

i don't think it's country of origin will be detrimental, as long as it performs. people want quality.

Full Metal Jacket
May 3, 2010, 11:24 PM
:neener:

Girodin
May 4, 2010, 12:27 AM
They just need to market it well. The XD was a hit when it got very good marketing. My Steyr M9 has me excited about this gun. The Caracal looks like it is picking up where the steyr left off. The Steyr M9 is a great gun. However, it was marketed very poorly. "Like a glock but better" is an apt description of the M9 in certain respects. It was a great gun people never knew they should be interested in. Given the designer of the Caracal and his past products I'm interested in this pistol. One cannot make decisions about vaporware, but I'll give it a solid look if it reaches the states.

As to the xenophobes who just wouldn't by it because it came from the UAE, I wonder if their sentiments dictate many of their other purchases. I have guns from Belgium, China, USA, Russia, Austria, etc. If its a gun I want then it being from the UAE certainly isn't going to turn me off. Then again, I've lived abroad on various occasions, traveled a fair amount and generally I'm not xenophobic.

I do get a kick out of the market analysts and experts here that just know what will or wont be successful.

RhodesianRLI
May 4, 2010, 02:36 AM
For the people saying this gun wont sell because of where its made, get real! When the UAE decides to do something they do it right. They have the finest airlines in the world and some of the finest hotels and resorts. This pistol will sell very well, people still buy weapons made in Israel even though many people dont like jews.

atblis
May 4, 2010, 07:36 AM
EAA is importing this thing. :barf:

I was thinking of picking one of these up, but now, no way. Anybody else as the importer, and I'd get one. EAA can keep them.

Deluxe247
June 28, 2010, 05:45 PM
Actually Waffen Werks is the official importer:

http://tinyurl.com/2ddo3d8

-D

atblis
July 4, 2010, 09:13 AM
Not EAA! Excellent :p
Might have to pick one up then.
Have this on my list along with the STI GP6

FIVETWOSEVEN
July 4, 2010, 09:48 AM
How much is this pistol gonna cost? around $500 i'm guessing?

gogriz91
July 4, 2010, 11:20 AM
After living in the UAE for awhile I will say this, when the Emiratis set out to build the best, they endeavour to do it. They are certainly more industrious than the Saudis and are very intelligent and shrewd. They tortured Lockheed and the US gov't t sell them the best F-16 in the world and also the same with the French and the Mirage 2000-9. I'm a 1911 person myself but I may have to go to the Caracal club in Abu Dhabi and shoot this thing to see what kind of shooter it is.

Kingofthehill
July 4, 2010, 01:41 PM
man, i can't wait for this thing. I just love the specs, design and vids ive come across.

It reminds me a whole lot of my Steyr M9A1. I will be buying a minimum of 2, hopefully 3 right away

easyg
July 5, 2010, 06:13 PM
The Caracal seems like a good handgun from what this thread offers.
I wouldn't mind seeing and handling one in person.

Having said that...
I don't think that it offers anything meaningful over a Glock.

Quickstrike
July 5, 2010, 11:40 PM
Looks pretty interesting. I'll see how it runs in pistol classes first though.

bds
August 22, 2010, 01:34 AM
So, any more news?

Sapper771
August 22, 2010, 03:34 PM
I was at an area gun shop/range yesterday and the owner of the shop was talking about it. He said that one of their members brought two of them in, a compact 9mm and a Full sized 9mm. He had some really good things to say about it. He said that the recoil was almost nill and the trigger pull was around 4 pounds. He stated that he was attempting to find an importer that can get them so he can stock them. IIRC, he said that he was trying to get them through Waffen Werks.

I wouldn't mind trying one out.

Kingofthehill
August 22, 2010, 07:29 PM
According to the Importers Post on the Steyr Club Forum.

Hello guys, sorry to take so long to answer. I've been very busy and just got back from a business trip a couple of days ago.

We actually just got an airway bill from Caracal Int. today. The pistols will be in the US the 25th of this month. If we do not have any issues with US Customs and Border Protection about ten days after that we will have them in hand and start shipping.

Thanks to everyone for being so patient.

Keith

SWEET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am all in for this baby!

tekarra
August 23, 2010, 08:20 PM
Sure would like to handle one.

bds
August 23, 2010, 09:05 PM
The pistols will be in the US the 25th of this month. If we do not have any issues with US Customs and Border Protection about ten days after that we will have them in hand and start shipping.

Can you ask them to drop test for California? < Wishful thinking >

I hate California :barf::cuss::banghead::mad:

5-SHOTS
September 15, 2010, 12:43 PM
Here in Italy Caracal C and F are imported by Tanfoglio (EAA Witness). The price is the same of the Glock 19 and 17. The Caracalís chief engineer (William Bubits, if I remember well) previously worked at Glock, Walther and Steyr.
Iíve recently handled the C and F models at my local shop with regular sights and with short sights (called quick sigths) and I can tell the Caracal is (IMO) a better pistol than the Glock: the trigger is way better out of the box, fit and finish is very good, the sights are all steel (not plastic), grips are way better in the hands, overall look is way better, magazines are steel, the polymer frame is smooth and not ruvid, the F model is smaller than the G17 and the C model is smaller than the G19.
I know Glock quite well: my father had a G19 for two years (now itís gone in favour of a HK P30) and Iíve shot it many times, inspected and cleaned it. Glocks are great pistols but Caracal put in the market a better product (again IMO). When my father handled the Caracal C said: ĒIf only this pistol was in the market two or three years ago, Iíll never purchased the GlockĒ. The owner of the shop told me that two or three Glockers have purchased the Caracal in the last months and they all reported they are happier now with this pistol.
When Iíll have the opportunity to test fire it at my local range Iíll report you some impressions.

Best regards, 5-SHOTS.

Tecolote
September 15, 2010, 10:21 PM
I'll reserve judgement until they've actually proven themselves. Something can feel wonderful in the shop, but then chokes when you start running it hard.

Ed DCB
October 27, 2010, 08:03 PM
Some more eye candy. Today's tests, I'll use Geco ammunition.

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/IMG_6166-1024.jpg

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