Sigs are better than Glocks !


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sigman
January 9, 2010, 08:12 PM
After spending over two years reading the posts on here i've come to a conclusion.
Sigs are more reliable than Glocks !
I read reports occassionaly about how Glocks have FTF and FTE problems.
But i have NEVER read any posts about ANY Sigs having these problems !

Sure Glocks are built like tanks and can take tons of abuse.
But i baby my firearms,they are my sweethearts !

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kentucky_smith
January 9, 2010, 08:17 PM
Huh? I haven't heard much good about recently-produced Sigs. Throw in a couple of recalls and I don't see it that way at all.

Jed Carter
January 9, 2010, 08:19 PM
I own both and have to agree, but you have really kicked over the can and thrown it into the fan!

Casaba
January 9, 2010, 08:19 PM
Oh... I think i'll watch this one!



Don't you know Glock fans are like amsoil people?

Dr.Mall Ninja
January 9, 2010, 08:20 PM
Sigs are nice but you joined on August 31, 2009
two years? :neener:

sigman
January 9, 2010, 08:21 PM
they are pure crap ! Everybody who has been on this forum for at least 6 months already knows that !

It's understood ! :rolleyes:

REAPER4206969
January 9, 2010, 08:22 PM
You are incorrect.

EddieNFL
January 9, 2010, 08:22 PM
Can't be true. Glocks never malfunction; I read it on the internet.

Don't you know Glock fans are like amsoil people?

Did you mean Amway?

Skillet
January 9, 2010, 08:23 PM
and CZ's are better than both!

sigman
January 9, 2010, 08:24 PM
I use to be " Sigdude ". Something happened where i couldn't log back on with that handle so i had to change it to " Sigman ".Plus i only read the posts for a few months before actually joining.....

EddieNFL
January 9, 2010, 08:24 PM
Sigs are nice but you joined on August 31, 2009
two years?

I joined in November, but I've been reading for over a year.

okespe04
January 9, 2010, 08:25 PM
I just like guns!

NinjaFeint
January 9, 2010, 08:28 PM
Thanks for the revelation. I will go tell my Glock how crappy it doesn't yet know it is. I am sure it will get right on those FTEs and FTFs.

Dr.Mall Ninja
January 9, 2010, 08:31 PM
Okay, okay im sorry, no harm no foul right? I like sigs better too anyway.

Morgo
January 9, 2010, 08:32 PM
I'd take my German Sig over any Glock any day :)

sigman
January 9, 2010, 08:33 PM
i can't join " The Sig Forum " unless i use any other email address than " yahoo.com ". I have 4 yahoo email accounts and one comcast account.
So i just read The Sig Forum,instead of actually joining and posting my own questions and comments......

ckone
January 9, 2010, 08:33 PM
Wrong. Glocks are for people who actually shoot and are favored by shooters with more skill than money, Sigs are for people who like to play with them and not shoot them very much and have more extra money than skill (that's why they never notice there's a bunch of crap in the way of their thumbs on Sigs... If they actually knew how to shoot it'd bother them).

memphisjim
January 9, 2010, 08:33 PM
both actually are great
"babied" youll never have a problem with any major brand gun
cz's are pretty sweet my buddy just got a full size 9mm 75 i believe
great trigger wasnt noticably more accurate than a glock 19
we traded back and forth bouncing a coke can around at 25 yards and accuracy wise there was no differences
maybe the cz would win out if you locked it in a vice who knows

sigman
January 9, 2010, 08:38 PM
I know there are thousands of Glocks that are flawless.
But i've never read any posts of Sigs having problems.
A.A.M.O.F. i may be buying the Glock 21 SF in the near future.
They are cheaper than Sigs !

Trigun
January 9, 2010, 08:41 PM
Sig don't even know how to made a .22 pistol.

Trigun

bearmgc
January 9, 2010, 08:43 PM
Sigs=recall. The lastest and the greatest, aint...

sigman
January 9, 2010, 08:44 PM
and i thought 9MM's were for wimps !?!?!? :uhoh:

230therapy
January 9, 2010, 08:46 PM
Why limit yourself to one brand?

I KNOW you want another excuse to buy another gun. So here are some:

"But, honey, I only have SIGs. I need a Glock!"

"But, honey, I have only Glocks. I need a SIG!"

"I read that Glocks never fail. I have SIGs, so I need to check out this other brand."

"I read that SIG is now having quality control problems. I need to try the Glock brand!"

"I keep reading about these Glock failures. I need a SIG!"

See...it's easy.

DRYHUMOR
January 9, 2010, 08:46 PM
Put crap ammo through a Glock and you will see problems. :uhoh:

Put crap ammo through a Sig... well, I've never done that. :rolleyes:

ckone
January 9, 2010, 08:46 PM
That's 'cause most Sig owners rarely shoot! Sig owners are so busy picking out fancy grips and saving for expensive "upgrades" to bring their pistols up to a normal standard (SRT, etc.) that they never really go shooting... If they did they'd know I'm not jokeing when I point out that their overpriced guns are heavy, thick, have too many levers in the way of a proper shooting grip, have the slide release in the worst spot ever and tend to choke next to ugly plastic guns at matches...

Casaba
January 9, 2010, 08:46 PM
uhhhhh what?

MTS840
January 9, 2010, 08:48 PM
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii309/dylanclifton/Fail.jpg

Dr.Mall Ninja
January 9, 2010, 08:50 PM
haha mts
Wow the Glock guys are mad.....

DRYHUMOR
January 9, 2010, 08:58 PM
"That's 'cause most Sig owners rarely shoot! Sig owners are so busy picking out fancy grips and saving for expensive "upgrades" to bring their pistols up to a normal standard (SRT, etc.) that they never really go shooting..."

Actually I shoot my 1911's more than my Sigs :neener:

sigman
January 9, 2010, 08:59 PM
Plus Sigs have that second hammer strike capability on misfires that Glocks don't have.
I love the triggers on Sigs too !

Skillet
January 9, 2010, 09:00 PM
this thread is headed south quick. I expect it to get locked here in a while.

lets make EVERYBODY mad by posting this thread!

might as well put the brady buttbunch on here and let them have full control of the website. lets just do that while we are at it making everybody mad. it'll be great!!

sigman
January 9, 2010, 09:02 PM
and a cold brew !!!
Thank God i'm in my Lazy Boy recliner ! :D

sigman
January 9, 2010, 09:07 PM
Glocks are " Hummers " !
Sigs are " Ferraris " ! :cool:

DRYHUMOR
January 9, 2010, 09:15 PM
Yep, Hummer and Ferrari....

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=112799&d=1263086050

sigman
January 9, 2010, 09:18 PM
That Sig pic. sure is sexy !! :)

DRYHUMOR
January 9, 2010, 09:21 PM
Can't say that about a Glock can ya?

sigman
January 9, 2010, 09:21 PM
Police Depts. use Glocks.
Elite Teams use Sigs. ;)

sigman
January 9, 2010, 09:23 PM
" Beauty and the Beast " ! LOL !! :D


[ Beauty is the " best " !! ]

Pigaloo
January 9, 2010, 09:34 PM
I had a 220 that I did not like at all. I did not get the feeling of "quality" when I held it. It just felt cheap. Sold it cheap too. Just not a sig fan, although, I do like the P6/225.

DRYHUMOR
January 9, 2010, 09:42 PM
I have a buddy that floats all around the world from craphole to craphole, most of the time all they carry are Sigs. And yes, LEO usually has glocks

I heard good and bad about both to fair about it, both run equally well when clean, with decent ammo. As for the levers and what not on the Sig, just any pc of equipment, you learn it and get used to it.

The Glock (.40) in that pic I have run crap ammo through it. In the course of 2 magazines I had 8 or 9 FTF and a couple of stovepipes. They aren't "wonder pistols" as some would believe, they do have limitations.

My other Sig a 229SCT, I've run very dirty with 3 or 4 different types of ammo, maybe a 300 plus round session, no issues. That doesn't mean I couldn't make it fail in some way. I've never had any crap 9mm ammo to test the theory.

sigman
January 9, 2010, 09:42 PM
it must be that aluminum frame model.
My P220 ST is all Stainless steel.
It weighs a Ton but i like it that way because it keeps the recoil tamned a bit.
Plus my model has a better updated grip on it than the older " Classic " P220 models.

Autolycus
January 9, 2010, 09:45 PM
I prefer both. I am currently in a Glock phase and have just stopped being obsessed with Sigs.

JohnKSa
January 9, 2010, 09:52 PM
I read reports occassionaly about how Glocks have FTF and FTE problems.
But i have NEVER read any posts about ANY Sigs having these problems !I'd say that in some ways SIGs are better than Glocks, however your methodology in arriving at your conclusion is flawed.

In order to make an accurate assessment using the method you used you would AT LEAST need to know the following.

1. How many SIG owners/shooters are there on this forum compared to Glock owners/shooters? That is, are there the same number of Glock owners/shooters posting on THR as there are SIG owners/shooters? If there are a lot more Glock owners/shooters then one would naturally expect to see a lot more Glock problems reported even if the problem rate is the same between the two guns.

2. Are all the Glock problems posted accurate reports?

3. Is a typical Glock problem just as likely (more likely/less likely) to be reported as a typical SIG problem? That is, given X Glock problems and the same number of SIG problems will we see more, less or the same number of problem reports posted for each gun?

sigman
January 9, 2010, 10:11 PM
Yes ! I agree with you !

It's quite simple actually !

The variables should be equally balanced to come to the sum of the total.
There could be a lenghthly check of past Glock and Sig posters.I understand your reasoning also in that maybe Glock posters are maybe more numerous.And maybe alot of Sig. owners are just not posting as much.There does exist are friendly rivalry between both fans of these legendary pistols.
I assume that those that are actually posting are being truthful and accurate.
It's almost like some people are also saying that there exist a certain " Status Symbol " with each brand. That Sig owners admire their pistols more,while Glock shooters are more pragmatic and "do " actually shoot alot and practice more !

thriftyjoe
January 10, 2010, 12:09 AM
The only things i see in a Sig that i MIGHT like to see in a glock is the trigger pull and maybe the full metal body

racine
January 10, 2010, 12:19 AM
"...I'd take my German Sig over any Glock any day .."
Oh yeah well I'll take my Austrian Gluck over your German anyday! 8 ^ O .
But really who cares??? Can't we all just get along??? 8 ^ )

JDGray
January 10, 2010, 12:42 AM
I've carried both a Glock 19, 23 and a Sig 239, never had any of them fail. I do like the Glock trigger, being the same all the time, never warmed up to the Sig DA-SA. I can't say anthing good about the Sig slide catch location. They put it right where I grip the thing, so the slide never locked back on it till I figured out I was holding it in. The Sig was more accurate, but lacked capacity compared to the same size Glock. The Sig definatly carried better with the perfect grip geometry, but it was heavier than my G23. I now carry a Kimber UCII, and couldnt be happier:cool:

yongxingfreesty
January 10, 2010, 12:47 AM
id have to say all mine are equally the same.

IdahoLT1
January 10, 2010, 12:57 AM
http://i45.tinypic.com/2133fix.jpg
http://ingunowners.com/forums/handguns/67551-sig_p220_and_wolf_kaboom.html


http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=487543&highlight=Sig+problems
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=484679&highlight=Sig+problems
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=480952&highlight=Sig+problems
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=475016&highlight=Sig+problems
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=432587&highlight=Sig+problems
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=352349&highlight=SIG+troubles
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=329186&highlight=SIG+troubles
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=490424&highlight=SIG+failure

jad0110
January 10, 2010, 01:40 AM
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q139/jad0110/Misc/Thread-Crap-Graph.jpg

Rexster
January 10, 2010, 03:16 AM
Quoting ckone: "That's 'cause most Sig owners rarely shoot! Sig owners are so busy picking out fancy grips and saving for expensive "upgrades" to bring their pistols up to a normal standard (SRT, etc.) that they never really go shooting... If they did they'd know I'm not jokeing when I point out that their overpriced guns are heavy, thick, have too many levers in the way of a proper shooting grip, have the slide release in the worst spot ever and tend to choke next to ugly plastic guns at matches..."

Ah, match shooting. Why is a match shooting grip the only "proper" grip? That "proper" grip might not fare so well in a force-on-force training session, or a contact-distance street fight. A SIG's controls are placed just fine for a fighting grip, especially for the double-action pull. I can understand a high-thumb position for lighter single-action and "safe-action" pulls, when on a peaceful shooting range.

Even in "for score" shooting mode, with a SIG, if I choose to not lock my thumb down, my horizontal thumb is below the level of the slide stop lever, and does not touch the decocker. This assumes right-hand mode, anyway. I often favor shooting as a lefty, especially with a DA/SA SIG, in which case the controls, and that decocker hump in the left grip panel, are out of the way, regardless of thumb position. Not that the SIG is forcing me to shoot lefty; I often prefer to shoot 1911s lefty, too, and use that same horizontal thumb position, which is LOWER than the safety lever.

I am not taking sides in the Glock-versus-SIG conflict. P229 and P226 SIGs fit me well. SIG P220s and P245s point too low for me. Glocks don't fit me, but that is not the fault of the gun itself. I also prefer the SIG DAK trigger over the Glock "safe-action," but that is not the fault of the Glock.

I used Glocks for a while, two of them being G22 models I bought for duty use. One gave me some drama, the other ran well, except for one embarrassing malf during a shooting class. My P229s have been boringly reliable. They are also quite stock, except for TJ's Custom triggers I installed, to facilitate the DA pulls, in which I like my finger to roll across a narrower trigger face. Factory grip panels. Factory springs.

Edited to add: FWIW, I wear a big-city PD badge, and have to buy my duty firearms. The P226 and P229 are the two most expensive weapons on the list of approved DA .40 autopistols, while the Glock G22 and G23 are much less expensive.

RockyMtnTactical
January 10, 2010, 05:40 AM
I think the problems stems from one problem. Nobody owns Sigs.

Seriously though, there are a ton more Glocks out there. Both are decent guns. I prefer Glocks. I just shoot them well and I like them and they work.

That said, I've converted a few Sig fans over the years...

REAPER4206969
January 10, 2010, 08:13 AM
Police Depts. use Glocks.
Elite Teams use Sigs.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/mpnet/193829.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c42/mrmedinaG21/GIGlock.jpg

REAPER4206969
January 10, 2010, 08:22 AM
Plus Sigs have that second hammer strike capability on misfires that Glocks don't have.
Only someone who lacks training would think of that as a "feature". *click* Tap-Rack-Assess.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfyULpEhmug

Joshua M.
January 10, 2010, 08:40 AM
I haven't been a member for two+ years, and I don't own a Sig, but...I have shot side by side me with my M&P .40, and my brother with his Block 27 .40. The results shooting umc factory round nose ammo: He spent alot of time fixing his stove pipes, while I just dropped a clip, and kept on firing. The block just don't fit my hand at all, but that is only 1 model, I haven't ever been a fan of those. What I am a fan of is my Kimber Ultra CDPII. That my friends IS a gun...

REAPER4206969
January 10, 2010, 10:03 AM
He spent alot of time fixing his stove pipes,
Limp wrist.

Joshua M.
January 10, 2010, 10:25 AM
Limp wrist.
He has been in the Army for 12 years...guessing he knows how to shoot

scythefwd
January 10, 2010, 10:31 AM
Josh,
Denpending on his MOS, he may never have touched a handgun in the service. I only touched the M9 to clear it for my lazy CSM who felt clearing her own weapon was below her. I spent 8 years in. I deployed 1 time. I wouldn't have been in a position to touch another M9 for the next 3 years guaranteed.

NinjaFeint
January 10, 2010, 10:38 AM
I know there are thousands of Glocks that are flawless.
But i've never read any posts of Sigs having problems.
A.A.M.O.F. i may be buying the Glock 21 SF in the near future.
They are cheaper than Sigs !
Uh-huh...I read on the internets Jesus himself prefers Glocks.

Since this thread is a joke and me previous post was a joke, let's keep it going.

REAPER4206969
January 10, 2010, 10:55 AM
He has been in the Army for 12 years...guessing he knows how to shoot
Type one/two malfunctions in the Glock are primarily caused by limpwristing. It can be done on demand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh9JhCyFFxA

DRYHUMOR
January 10, 2010, 10:55 AM
Well.... I think some folks said that the Glocks get shot more than the Sigs. I guess one could attribute that to the Glock owners continually wondering if thier weapons would work, and they were having to check more often....

Whereas the Sig owners knew that thier weapons would perform and don't have to continually shoot them to make sure.....

Just thought I would throw that out there.

I might shoot today if it will warm up a few more degrees, might even shoot one of my Sigs, seeings how I haven't shot them this year.

REAPER4206969
January 10, 2010, 10:59 AM
I guess one could attribute that to the Glock owners continually wondering if thier weapons would work, and they were having to check more often....

I'm sure that's what it is...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj5Kcs4dzro

Casaba
January 10, 2010, 11:01 AM
I love the limp wrist explanations... do they make a model with pink furry grips for the shemales?

REAPER4206969
January 10, 2010, 11:05 AM
I love the limp wrist explanations...
Do you know how a recoil operated semi-automatic firearm works?

RobMoore
January 10, 2010, 11:08 AM
I've never had a floorplate fly off my Glock during a reload, dumping the spring, follower, and all my rounds on the ground........I have had that happen with a SIG.

I've never broken the extractor on a Glock, I have on a SIG.

I've never had light primer strikes with a Glock after a long range sessions because the gun didn't want to return to battery dirty. I have on a SIG.

I've never had to send a Glock back to the factory because the firing pin that came with the gun was too long, and was piercing primers. I have with a SIG.

In fact, I've never had to send a Glock back to the factory period.

If all I'm doing is going to a range to shoot for as tight a group as I can get, and neither speed nor reliability are a concern. I pick up the SIG. For everything else, it used to be the Glock (until I got my hands on an M&P).

jaysouth
January 10, 2010, 11:20 AM
OP

So it happens, I have several of each. Send me a couple of hundred thousand Fed or UMC ball rounds and I will conduct an exhaustive test and let you know the results of my scientific evaluation.

If you hurry with ammo, I should have the test protocols promulgated soon.
We could wrap this up in two or three years, if I can find volunteers to load mags. Send me some mags too.

(or, this thread reduced to plain fact, you are wasting bandwidth with stupid assertions that you can't back up. By the way, what's the MTBF for a Sig 226?)

jaysouth
January 10, 2010, 11:26 AM
Oh, Reaper;

When the junior Special Forces group at Ft. Bragg wore out their Berettas, they DID NOT buy any Sigs.

Wonder why the FBI ditched their Sigs? What did they buy for replacements?

Again, this vs. that is a stupid argument.

REAPER4206969
January 10, 2010, 11:38 AM
What did they buy for replacements?
Glock model 22/23

http://www.fototime.com/E3BEE679200227C/orig.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/315460274C7521F/orig.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/37E4E0DBEB02E0A/orig.jpg

X-Five
January 10, 2010, 11:43 AM
I had 2 Glock 21 and 1 G19, HK P30, USP Expert .40, Tactical .45, XD .45, sold them all. Now all my pistols are Sig ( P229 9mm DAK, P226 .40, SP2022 .40, P226 X-Five Short & Smart), they are just amazing!:)

JDGray
January 10, 2010, 12:11 PM
Glocks are more sensitive to limp wristing than other pistols. My young Son could get my G19 to stovepipe pretty regularly, shooting my weak reloads. Plastic frames, heavy recoil springs, under powered reloads, ammount to stovepipe failures. On the other hand, my under sprung, all steel, CZ75, could shoot those same reloads with 100% reliability.

RobMoore
January 10, 2010, 12:36 PM
There is an easy fix for you. When you load light rounds, match it with a lighter spring. The factory springs are tuned for full-power loads. That goes for just about any gun.

CZ223
January 10, 2010, 12:38 PM
Your name fits you perfectly:D Glocks probably get shot more often because their impoverished owners can afford to buy more ammo with the money they saved not buying a Sig.:evil: Listen, both are good guns as are several other brands like the Springfield XD, CZ, S&W M&P, HK etc. I know lots of people who own Glocks and very few who own Sigs. I also know that at one point, Glock had captured more than %40 of the LEO Market while brands like S&W, Springfield, HK and SIG divied up the the rest of the market. That means there were roughly 3 Glocks out there to any other single brand. Actually if they all had an equal share of the remaining market it would figure at 2 and 2/3rds to one assuming there were only four competitors for the remaining 60%. The reason that that is relevant is easy, the more guns a company produces the more problems they will have. It is simply a matter of percentages. If the civilian market is reflective of the Law enforcement market, as it often, then it is reasonable to assume that many more people own Glocks than own Sigs. So, it also stands to reason that you will read of more cases of failures/problems with the Glock than the Sig.

Does that mean that Glocks are better than Sigs, not in my opinion. What it definitely does mean is that Glocks are good guns, though they may not be for everyone. Some Law enforcement agencies are now getting away from the Glock and going to guns like the XD more for liability/safety reasons than reliability issues I suspect. Does it mean that Sigs are better than Glocks, no. Are we gonna resolve this issue here? Just as soon you you admit that your Chevy is infereior to my Ford.:evil:

I recently posted a thread titled "which semi-auto would you bet your life on out of the box". It was basically meant to find out which gun people had the most faith in that it would run reliably with the least amount of problems right from the factory. While it was not scientific to be sure, I think the results were obvious and of some value. Glock had the top spot by a ratio of over two to one over the second place XD with all other brands waaaay behind. Does this neccessarily mean that Glock is better than Sig? No, but it does mean that Glock is more popular than Sig. Guns, or any machine for that matter, do not retain their popularity, especially if it is as UGLY as Glock unless they are a good reliable product. That is exactly what Glock is, a good reliable product and whether or not your Sig is better than my Glock really doesn't matter to me at all.:p

REAPER4206969
January 10, 2010, 12:46 PM
Some Law enforcement agencies are now getting away from the Glock and going to guns like the XD more for liability/safety reasons than reliability issues I suspect.
O'rly?
I also know that at one point, Glock had captured more than %40 of the LEO Market
60%

Dropyourweapon
January 10, 2010, 12:55 PM
I would not shy away from another Sig at some point. I now own four glocks of which 3 are 9's and a .45. Glocks do not cost as much as Sigs. If I had to spend what a sig costs to get a good gun I would. Glocks are "cheap," simple, and reliable. Sigs are expensive, fairly simple, and reliable. I think cost is a big determining factor here.

Joshua M.
January 10, 2010, 01:03 PM
I am thinking of sending the wife to get more beer, so I don't miss any of this...

Demitrios
January 10, 2010, 01:05 PM
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b22/DemitriosX/MarkWahlbergConfused.gif

CZ223
January 10, 2010, 01:05 PM
I know it is happening in my area. I have been to the Range more than once this past year where agencies that had been carrying Glocks were transitioning to other designs, the XD in particular. I have talked to some of the cops and it was their feeling that they were switching because someone up the chain felt that the newer designd were safer.

As far as whether or not Glock achieved more than 40% percent of the Law enforcement market it may have been as high as 60% but I do not know that for sure. I do know for sure that it was higher than 40% and, for sake of not having to argue about it I chose to state it that way. Somuch for that logic.:o

REAPER4206969
January 10, 2010, 01:08 PM
What agency? Someone will call them and ask.

Blues Brother
January 10, 2010, 02:10 PM
so which are better?? sigs or glocks? what about springfield armory XDs?? I remember reading somewhere that they were the gun to "out glock" the glock.

NinjaFeint
January 10, 2010, 02:22 PM
so which are better?? sigs or glocks? what about springfield armory XDs?? I remember reading somewhere that they were the gun to "out glock" the glock.
OK, I'll be serious.

Having shot an M&P and an XD a lot while owning a Glock, they do not "out glock" the Glock. All three are awesome, reliable and accurate pistols. It comes down to preference as they all feel and point different.

Sigs are also great guns but I prefer a CZ-75 for my DA/SA shooting. I also prefer the $200 dollars I will save.

All mentioned are great guns and I thought the original post was a joke or troll type post but people are really into it.

REAPER4206969
January 10, 2010, 02:24 PM
The HS2000 (XD) is not even a player in this contest. The only pistol comparable to the Glock is the M&P.

Blues Brother
January 10, 2010, 02:25 PM
what is an HS2000????? I have never heard of that gun. ?????

Philo_Beddoe
January 10, 2010, 02:26 PM
I had a glock 17 that would stovepipe alot. I sent it to Glock and they said everything was fine. When I got it back it would still stovepipe

Never had any other problems with my berretta 92, ruger p95, or Cz 75's that I held in the exact same manner and with the exact same ammo.

Then I saw this video:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Sturmgewehre#p/u/6/Jh9JhCyFFxA

and this one

http://www.youtube.com/user/Sturmgewehre#p/u/5/fsewsolPyBU

And realized the problem was that glocks are more susceptible to limp wristing.

Like I said with the same ammo and the same grip the berretta 92, cz 75, and ruger p-95 were always 100%

I view this as a design flaw, one should not have to maintain a certain grip just to have the gun cycle correctly, even if its the correct way of doing things.

What if you are wounded in one arm and cant maintain a firm two handed grip or have a weakened grip due to age, blood loss, or injury?

I think glocks are fine guns, but they are just not for me.

REAPER4206969
January 10, 2010, 02:30 PM
what is an HS2000????? I have never heard of that gun. ?????
That is what the XD really is.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5d/Pi%C5%A1tolj_HS_2000.jpg/650px-Pi%C5%A1tolj_HS_2000.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HS2000

DRYHUMOR
January 10, 2010, 02:36 PM
Just to report the facts.

I did end up shooting earlier today. About 33 degrees with a 10 mph wind. Kinda cold.

I didn't hang long, but did run about 100 rounds through a 229SCT. About the middle of the 3rd magazine I had a FTE. Knew it right off. Cold? Lube? Both? Don't know, I re lubed and kept going.

REAPER4206969
January 10, 2010, 02:37 PM
I view this as a design flaw
The Glock's susceptibility to limpwristing is due to its light weight. The reason other service size pistols are more tolerant of poor grips is because they are significantly heavier.

chuckusaret
January 10, 2010, 02:39 PM
I also know that at one point, Glock had captured more than %40 of the LEO Market while brands like S&W, Springfield, HK and SIG divied up the the rest of the market.

That is not the case in my area, S&W M&P, Berretta and Springfield out number the Glock. Glock made drastic price cuts in the past to get the LE business in my area, the other companies are now offering better deals and gaining a bigger foot hold.

REAPER4206969
January 10, 2010, 02:46 PM
Florida state police just adopted the Glock 37.

Blues Brother
January 10, 2010, 02:46 PM
well, I certainly am no pro here, but I really like the XD. I have not owned a glock. I checked them out before I bought my XD. for some reason, the XD just appealed to me more. it seemed to me to just be better built. like its better quality. I might be wrong and made the wrong chioce. I dont know. but I really like the XD. I have read alot of good things about it earning a good reputation like the glock has.

REAPER4206969
January 10, 2010, 02:49 PM
You made a good choice. There is nothing wrong with the XD, it's just sometimes the XD guys get a little puffy chested and we have to put them back in their place.

CZ223
January 10, 2010, 03:01 PM
Just for you brother, I found this taken from an article in November 2008 on Policeone.com.

But as other companies struggle with incremental gains, GLOCK, Inc., with over 65% of Law Enforcement using their handguns featuring the highly regarded “Safe Action System” continues to set a blistering pace in agency conversions. More and more agencies are determining that rock solid reliability and world class customer service combined with an economical price tag win out over marketing and pricing schemes dreamed up to move excess inventory. In the last eighteen months GLOCK, Inc. has converted over eighty (80) agencies in the United States from a single competitor. This success has carried over to the conversions of agencies from other competitors as well.

So, as much as I hate to admit it, Reaper was right. I will not repeat that ever again.:evil: So it does appear that Glocks are better or 65% of the LE community is choosing to carry inferior weapons.:rolleyes:

REAPER4206969
January 10, 2010, 03:04 PM
So, as much as I hate to admit it, Reaper was right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ5b6ZlVhJM

gc70
January 10, 2010, 03:16 PM
Glocks and Sigs are both rugged and boringly reliable guns.

Arguing over which one is better just proves you are a silly fanboy.

So... of course Sigs are better. :D

gmh1013
January 10, 2010, 03:29 PM
Well Duh!

Blues Brother
January 10, 2010, 04:15 PM
I can certinaly see the endless disagreement. like someone said, the old classic ford vs. chevy arguement. I have a sig, and I have a XD, I really like them both alot. would I own a glock? sure. No problem. I have nothing against glock. I just like the sig and xd better. while I am not putting glock down in any way, I would probably buy another XD in a longer barrell or different caliber before I bought a glock.

rellascout
January 10, 2010, 04:25 PM
I love the fact so few people know that the XD started out as the HS2000. They did not sell well at all under that name plate even though they were essential the exact same gun.

Springfield buys the rights to market it and sell it in the US, they still make it in Croatia, rename it EXTREME DUTY and the US public eats it up. People see Springfield and think its a US made gun. Suddenly it is the NRA gun of the year Blah Blah Blah.... Sales go through the roof.

I am not knocking it. It is a decent gun but it cracks me up how easily the US consumer is swayed by marketing hype.

Blues Brother
January 10, 2010, 04:27 PM
well for me it wasnt really hype. I just went to the gun store and started looking at guns. I had no idea what the XD was. just started comparing it with others and ended up buying one based on features, value, etc....

RobMoore
January 10, 2010, 04:31 PM
This is the first time I've heard of "XD" standing for "Extreme Duty". They haven't been marketing that hype very well.

rellascout
January 10, 2010, 04:31 PM
Just for you brother, I found this taken from an article in November 2008 on Policeone.com.

But as other companies struggle with incremental gains, GLOCK, Inc., with over 65% of Law Enforcement using their handguns featuring the highly regarded “Safe Action System” continues to set a blistering pace in agency conversions. More and more agencies are determining that rock solid reliability and world class customer service combined with an economical price tag win out over marketing and pricing schemes dreamed up to move excess inventory. In the last eighteen months GLOCK, Inc. has converted over eighty (80) agencies in the United States from a single competitor. This success has carried over to the conversions of agencies from other competitors as well.

So, as much as I hate to admit it, Reaper was right. I will not repeat that ever again. So it does appear that Glocks are better or 65% of the LE community is choosing to carry inferior weapons.

They are choosing the cheapest weapon that still meets their requirements. Glocks cost less to manufacture. The actually costs to produce a Glock is under $200 and that is with labor. They can then turn around and sell them to a department directly for under $300 and still make a huge profit. On top of that they buy back the old ones and sell them to people like CDNN and make money again without having to produce a new pistol.

That drives the profit from a LEO Glock sales into the $150 to $200 a gun range. That is almost key-stoning the margin on your product. This is what keeps Glock in the LEO market. It has little to do with the superiority of the product.

I am not a Glock fan but they are good guns and if I had to I would stake my life on it. The Glock 19 is my personal favorite of the Glock lineup. Perfect combination of size capacity and weight.

rellascout
January 10, 2010, 04:34 PM
This is the first time I've heard of "XD" standing for "Extreme Duty". They haven't been marketing that hype very well.

If you don't know your past then you don't know your future. This is what XD stands for. Has been from day one of Springer taking over the US distribution. The original marketing push was "eXTREME"!

HS2000 pistol has been developed by Croatian IM Metal company for Croatian army during late 1990s. Production of the 9mm HS2000 started in 1999, with the first pistols being delivered to the Croatian army the same year. In 2000 these pistols first appeared in the USA, initially imported under their original name. However, in late 2001 the Springfield Armory Company of Genseo, Illinois, became the sole importer of HS2000 pistols in USA. Springfield offers a slightly improved version of HS2000 as the Springfield XD (eXtreme Duty pistol), and by now these pistols (still made in Croatia) are available in a variety of sizes, calibers and finishes.

After several years of aggressive sales, these pistols gained good reputation and serious following among American shooters, and by now several police departments in USA either issue these pistols on regular basis or approve them for personal purchase by police officers. http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg48-e.htm

The reality is that until it was branded as a Springfield pistol they had a very small following with very low sales.

gc70
January 10, 2010, 04:46 PM
Here is an article (http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory07.php) reprinted on the Springfield website that refers to the "XD Extreme Duty Pistol."

RobMoore
January 10, 2010, 04:47 PM
The point wasn't to get a history lesson. The point was against your claim that they are promoting the XD to the "easily swayed US consumer" as an extreme duty weapon.

The term "extreme duty" may have at one point been in common useage. I must have missed it, but it isn't anymore. The moniker isn't used on the main sections of website where XD models can be found, nor have I read it in any publication (though I do read few of them) in the past few years.

Edit: is there a date on that article? The reference to a sept 2000 test doesn't indicate if it was a recent test, at the time of the article.

rellascout
January 10, 2010, 04:55 PM
Between the eXtreme moniker and the Springfield rollmark convinced people to buy the pistol that was otherwise languishing in the market.

This is not opinion. This is fact. Once Springer took over the marketing of the pistol which featured "eXtreme" as part of the market campaign the pistol started to sell. Before that time it was like the Steyr M series. Just another Glock want to be pistol that almost no one was buying. That original "extreme" campaign put the pistol on the map. You may not have been aware of it then but I remember it clearly.

To make it worse if you read the literature even today Springer pretends that they developed the pistol in a lot of their literature. They pretend that they came up with this revolutionary design when in fact they simply bought existing technology renamed it and repackaged it. That is what Springer does best. IMHO

That article is from 2000.

jaysouth
January 10, 2010, 04:56 PM
Would someone care to name a department or agency that has adopted the Croatian XD whatever the the importer, SA, is calling it?

FIFE RULES
January 10, 2010, 04:59 PM
BOTH ARE GOOD GUNS OVERALL. Sigs are however, the choice among professionals and government agencies for a reason. "field tests, maintenance history and superior performance". Everyone knows when govt agencies have to purchase something the sale goes to the lowest bidder. If that were "always the case", special forces, homeland security and all law enforcement agencies would be carrying glocks and not Sigs. Some local law enforcement agencies do carry glocks because of the cost issue. Sigs are almost twice as much. My only issue with glocks is the plastic coated magazines. If you don't properly align it when inserting it into the weapon you "will scratch and put burs in the plastic coating which will prevent the mag from dropping when you press the mag release". I've witnessed this 1st hand in competition. The 1st generation glocks would not even drop a loaded mag much less and empty one, though that was corrected. It's just not something I would want in a combat pistol. You want to eject empty mags when they're empty and not have to pull them out when "time is of the essence in putting rounds on target!" I WOULD BUY A GLOCK IF I COULDN'T AFFORD A SIG.

rellascout
January 10, 2010, 05:01 PM
Would someone care to name a department or agency that has adopted the Croatian XD whatever the the importer, SA, is calling it?

I know of none.

RobMoore
January 10, 2010, 05:04 PM
Sigs are however, the choice among professionals and government agencies for a reason. "field tests, maintenance history and superior performance"

You may think government agencies choose SIGs over Glocks for those lofty reasons you stated, but sometimes it is as simple as they don't trust their agents to empty the gun before pulling the trigger to disassemble them, or the people in charge of procurement are old revolver shooters and don't trust a gun without a hammer.

I have heard first-hand a gentleman involved with testing and procuring weapons for a large federal agency proclaim "The hammer on a SIG can be cocked in case you need to take a careful accurate shot. That is an advantage it has over plastic guns".

REAPER4206969
January 10, 2010, 05:05 PM
Sigs are however, the choice among professionals and government agencies for a reason.
You need to read the thread.

REAPER4206969
January 10, 2010, 05:07 PM
"The hammer on a SIG can be cocked in case you need to take a careful accurate shot. That is an advantage it has over plastic guns".http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_freak.gif

col_tapiocca
January 10, 2010, 05:26 PM
I owned several SigSauer Pistols. (P225, P226 and P228). I sold them all but keep my Glock 17 and Glock 19. I don't like the high bore axis on all P22x Serie pistols.
price performance ratio of SigSauer products are very poorly.

The only SIG pistol that I still have is the SIG P210. The real SIG :)

NinjaFeint
January 10, 2010, 05:34 PM
My only issue with glocks is the plastic coated magazines. If you don't properly align it when inserting it into the weapon you "will scratch and put burs in the plastic coating which will prevent the mag from dropping when you press the mag release". I've witnessed this 1st hand in competition. The 1st generation glocks would not even drop a loaded mag much less and empty one, though that was corrected. It's just not something I would want in a combat pistol. You want to eject empty mags when they're empty and not have to pull them out when "time is of the essence in putting rounds on target!"

I have never heard of this happening to someone I know who owns a Glock. I know quite a few people who own Glocks.

Edit: I see this is your first post...

mordechaianiliewicz
January 10, 2010, 05:42 PM
Okay. I am throwing in my .02 cents.... though I shouldn't.

Glocks and Sigs are both excellent weapons. If one has an ergonomic or aesthetic dislike, I don't know what to tell you. These guns are what they are. I'd trust my life to either company's products.

Philo_Beddoe
January 10, 2010, 06:21 PM
I am not knocking it. It is a decent gun but it cracks me up how easily the US consumer is swayed by marketing hype.

I dont know if I would call it marketing hype.

Springfield has a reputation for quality and excellent customer service, that is not marketing hype.

The fact that Springfield will stake their reputation and back up the gun with their warranty, basically says to most people that this is a quality firearm.

When it was HS2000, nobody knew who the manufactuer was and anything about their customer service.

Made in croatia does not exactly inspire confidence for quality given the context that the other famous product from that part of the world was the infamous YUGO car. A car known for being a complete POS.

HS lent its quality design and springfield gave it its excellent reputation.

When Glocks first came into the US market people used to think they were junk plastic guns, only have many years of having to prove itself did people change their minds.

HS basically short cut the process by using springfields good name. Both companies prospered by this arrangement.

Supertac45
January 10, 2010, 06:22 PM
I've never had a problem with any of my Sigs.

rellascout
January 10, 2010, 06:26 PM
Springfield has a reputation for quality and excellent customer service, that is not marketing hype.

You do know that expect for a few semi-custom 1911s Springfield does not manufacturer any guns.... Even those that they can claim made by... they are really only the assembler of parts. :what:

They are like Browning. They are nothing but a name and a marketing company.

Philo_Beddoe
January 10, 2010, 06:30 PM
You do know that expect for a few semi-custom 1911s Springfield does not manufacturer any guns....

They are like Browning. They are nothing but a name and a marketing company.


Do you have a source on this information?

As far as I know they manufacture their 1911's and their M-14 clones, which with their XD line is all they market.

You realize almost all manufactures outsource these days right?

That "american made" car you got sitting in your drive has foreign parts in it.

rellascout
January 10, 2010, 06:33 PM
The vast majority of their 1911s are made by Imbel in Brazil.

I am not sure who is making their M-14 clones but it is not them.

The XD which accounts for the majority of their current sales are made in Croatia.

Gungnir
January 10, 2010, 06:35 PM
Between the eXtreme moniker and the Springfield rollmark convinced people to buy the pistol that was otherwise languishing in the market.

This is not opinion. This is fact. <snip>

Of course it would, from recollection the only successful handgun this century that hasn't had a huge marketing campaign associated with it is the 1911. Even that's debatable because of them being brought back post WW1 & 2 by former servicemen. Was getting the US armed forces a huge advertising campaign? Look at Dirty Harry and tell me that wasn't a huge marketing campaign for the 44 Magnum, or Miami Vice for the Bren Ten

GG did something similar but intentional by flogging off Glocks to law enforcement and then promoting that fact. He rightly saw that people would respond to "Hey we're so good your local cops use us." and set out to do just that. Quite a savvy move.

You could have the most technologically advance firearm (or actually anything) and if you don't have marketing then its not going to sell. So yes it was languishing as anything would.

However I do agree that Springfield do imply they are the originators and not just the Licensers. :scrutiny:

Anyway back to the subjective subject. I prefer XD's although I like Sigs, Berettas and HK's not so fond of Glocks. They just don't do it for me. However they do it for other people, so great they fulfill a need, none is better than the other in the grand scheme of things, just some work better than others for individuals, and this applies to everything, some people wear boxers others wear Y-fronts, different but the same since they all take care of your tackle.

rellascout
January 10, 2010, 06:41 PM
I am not knocking Springer for the move to "market" the HS2000. IMHO it was a brilliant move.

jaysouth
January 10, 2010, 06:41 PM
Rellascout:

I thought ALL their 1911s were made in Brazil and fininshed in the US. Some more than others. If over 40% of final finish and assembly is in the US, no country of orgin need be stamped on the firearm.

It is interesting that folks are passionately stating a personal opinion believing that their personally held beliefs are scientific fact.

Nothing could be further from the truth. There is NO such evidence other than personal anecdotes.

Again, there are a lot of good guns out there, but there is no-one on this board that can truthfull say one is better than another because no factural evidence exists to support such a notion.

Stupid argument that wastes resources.

Hey, some of your chestbeaters, what is MTBF? Without that statistic you look pretty weak.

rellascout
January 10, 2010, 06:48 PM
Some of Springers guns can claim US origin. Most come from their custom shop. As I stated they are assembled from parts not of their own origin.

Do not take my statements about Springer as a insult. In fact I give them props for their marketing and intelligent manufacturing strategy. They have made a ton of money leveraging other peoples designs trading on a trusted name, Springfield, even if they have no connection to the Springfield of old.

They are a great marketing company that happens to sell guns.

;)

Gungnir
January 10, 2010, 06:51 PM
I am not knocking Springer for the move to "market" the HS2000. IMHO it was a brilliant move.

No I'm not saying that you did, but some people are prone to leap to conclusions. Without thinking through the logic.

Hey, some of your chestbeaters, what is MTBF? Without that statistic you look pretty weak.

I'd lay odds that their HALT and HASS tested to the same MTBF, regardless of the manufacturer. Normally these are specified by a regulatory body for example SAAMI, can't be sure, since I've never looked into it.

Everything else isn't repeatable, sure you can freeze your XD or Glock in ice and break it out and it fires. Can all Glocks and XD's do this, we don't know. Same with all the extreme stress testing that's done.

rellascout
January 10, 2010, 07:05 PM
Getting back to the OP. Its all about ergonomics which are subjective. My hand it not your hand. My eye are not your eyes. My training and experience are not your experience.

A lot of times we are destined to prefer a certain platform because "x" was the one that we shot the most early in our shooting life.

If there was an end all be all platform for everyone there would be only one gun in production. Lucky for us we have choices.

Sig Vs Glock is a stupid question on its face.

earlthegoat2
January 10, 2010, 07:10 PM
Isn't trolling frowned upon??

Full Metal Jacket
January 10, 2010, 07:10 PM
a friend of mine is both a sig and glock armorer, and he sees FAR more issues with sigs than glocks. (in the form of broken extractors and ejectors most of the time.)

sig hasn't been the same since they moved to america.

rellascout
January 10, 2010, 07:12 PM
Isn't trolling frowned upon??

Who is trolling?

rockhound758
January 10, 2010, 07:23 PM
I had a G22 for a while and loved it...straight shooter. Traded it in on another gun and recently picked up an XDM in .40, and love it as well. It's damn accurate. I'm currently debating for CC picking up either a G23 or a 229 (was considering the 250...really liked the trigger but long reset worried me, and I hear they're coming out with a shorter reset). Both the 23 and the 229 are solid guns, but in shooting the 229 I didn't like the trigger pull as much...I can also get the 23 for $399 new, vs. what? ~$800 for the 229? I think all three (Glock, Springfield and Sig) make a fine weapon...ultimately it's all about the shooter anyway.

rellascout
January 10, 2010, 07:25 PM
If you are paying $800 for a P229 you are shopping in the wrong place.

rockhound758
January 10, 2010, 07:29 PM
Rella, that might be a little off as I was going off of memory...but it was significantly more than $400. What would you say is an obtainable price for a new 229?

rellascout
January 10, 2010, 07:32 PM
I agree that the Glock is cheaper....

Around $700 is right if you are patient and look around. Sig has used MAP pricing to protect/prop up a lot of Sigsignifigant dealers.

REAPER4206969
January 10, 2010, 08:02 PM
The vast majority of their 1911s are made by Imbel in Brazil.
The only firearms SA inc. actually make are the EMP and the Professional, and those are made from IMBEL forgings as well. If you have a SA 1911 you can remove your right grip panel and it will say "MADE IN BRAZIL".

schmeky
January 10, 2010, 08:07 PM
Oh well

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/1026/awjeeznotthis****again2.jpg

REAPER4206969
January 10, 2010, 08:09 PM
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-11/892154/Loaded_brazil.jpg

Autolycus
January 10, 2010, 09:01 PM
I like both Glocks and Sigs but as of late the Glock has been my goto firearm.

earlthegoat2
January 10, 2010, 09:10 PM
Who is trolling?

The OP. Everyone knows a thread like this is going to cause trouble.

Full Metal Jacket
January 10, 2010, 09:39 PM
it's all just people's opinions, folks. lets not get bent out of shape. some like glock & some like sigs. as long as you like what you have, that's all that matters.

gc70
January 10, 2010, 09:41 PM
Everyone knows a thread like this is going to cause trouble.

Nevertheless, there have been six pages of good-natured banter without obvious 'blood in the streets' as a result of discussing this topic.

REAPER4206969
January 10, 2010, 09:43 PM
without obvious 'blood in the streets' as a result of discussing this topic. That's because their SIGs are broken.

Full Metal Jacket
January 10, 2010, 09:46 PM
lmao

earlthegoat2
January 10, 2010, 09:55 PM
I think Glocks outsell Sigs around 15:1

Of course there are going to be more reported failures with them.

X-Five
January 10, 2010, 10:10 PM
All of my Sigs are all made in Germany (slide, barrel and frame) w/c I prefer, so no worries:)

Blues Brother
January 10, 2010, 10:34 PM
man. this is a controversial topic.

rellascout
January 10, 2010, 10:37 PM
man. this is a controversial topic.

Not really unless you let your ego get wrapped up in the guns you own/carry.

If you treat them as they should be treated as simple tools such conversations are meaningless beyond the fun of having them.

jaysouth
January 10, 2010, 10:43 PM
Hey,

Somebody name me a department or agency that went to SA XDs. Somebody posted that there were departments buying Springfiled XDs. Who are they?

Somebody name a department that went from Glocks to Sigs? Just one? Hundreds have gone from Sig to Glock. Remember the FBI? Lousiana State Police? Henrico country, VA? must be a couple of hundred more.

What does that prove? A whole bunch of professionals in professional positions finally saw the light and got tired of constant intermittant problems with Sigs that do not occur in Glock.

Does that prove anything in light of this thread? Probably not because I don't recognize any real professionals posting on this thread except for Rellascout.

This may not sound high road but there is a lot of BS posted from chest-thumpers that don't have a clue what they post about.

Full Metal Jacket
January 10, 2010, 10:44 PM
"The hammer on a SIG can be cocked in case you need to take a careful accurate shot. That is an advantage it has over plastic guns".


:eek:

Full Metal Jacket
January 10, 2010, 10:47 PM
What does that prove? A whole bunch of professionals in professional positions finally saw the light and got tired of constant intermittant problems with Sigs that do not occur in Glock.


nope.

read this:

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/problems.html


glock certainly does have intermittent probs, but they keep it quiet.

rellascout
January 10, 2010, 10:48 PM
Hey,

Somebody name me a department or agency that went to SA XDs. Somebody posted that there were departments buying Springfiled XDs. Who are they?

Somebody name a department that went from Glocks to Sigs? Just one? Hundreds have gone from Sig to Glock. Remember the FBI? Lousiana State Police? Henrico country, VA? must be a couple of hundred more.

What does that prove? A whole bunch of professionals in professional positions finally saw the light and got tired of constant intermittant problems with Sigs that do not occur in Glock.

Does that prove anything in light of this thread? Probably not because I don't recognize any real professionals posting on this thread except for Rellascout.

This may not sound high road but there is a lot of BS posted from chest-thumpers that don't have a clue what they post about.

DO you know anything about Govt contracting? Have you ever sold anything to the Govt or been involved in purchasing things for the Govt.

Lowest bidder wins. It has nothing to do with quality. It has everything to do with price.

PS if you read the post it is Springfield who claims to have sold to the Govt. No one else is making that claim.

NinjaFeint
January 10, 2010, 10:55 PM
DO you know anything about Govt contracting? Have you ever sold anything to the Govt or been involved in purchasing things for the Govt.

Lowest bidder wins. It has nothing to do with quality. It has everything to do with price.

PS if you read the post it is Springfield who claims to have sold to the Govt. No one else is making that claim.
Why aren't all Govt agencies using High Points if price is the only thing that matters?

rellascout
January 10, 2010, 10:57 PM
Why aren't all Govt agencies using High Points if price is the only thing that matters?

There are minimum requirements. That is why. Are you really going to lower the discussion with crap like that?

How did Beretta win the M9 contract. They did not win because they had superior gun to Sig. They won because they had a cheaper gun that meet the min spec.

NinjaFeint
January 10, 2010, 11:00 PM
There are minimum requirements. That is why. Are you really going to lower the discussion with crap like that?

How did Beretta win the M9 contract. They did not win because they had superior gun to Sig. They won because they had a cheaper gun that meet the min spec.
How could I possibly lower this discussion? I understand how Govt bidding works. I work for a company that bids on Govt contracts (not firearms). It does have something to do with quality, it is just not only about quality.

rellascout
January 10, 2010, 11:01 PM
By displaying your ignorance of how the process works. Most people in this discussion may not agree 100% but they are not injecting stupidity into the discussion.

searcher451
January 10, 2010, 11:02 PM
Truth be told, I've gotten along fine for a lot of years now without owning either a Glock or a SIG. Reckon that I'll get along fine for a number of additional years, god willing, without owning either one, though a SIG has been known to tempt me from time to time. Still, too many Walthers to get and not enough time or money to get them all.

By the way, I thought we didn't encourage mine-is-bigger-than-yours threads. No?

rellascout
January 10, 2010, 11:04 PM
By the way, I thought we didn't encourage mine-is-bigger-than-yours threads. No?

Yet so many participate..... LOL :neener:

Blues Brother
January 10, 2010, 11:05 PM
I still dont have anything against glocks. I just like sigs and XDs as they suit me better. I guess its just personal preference. I do have to say I have found this thread very intersting though. there is alot of good info here that gives good insight into the strengths and weaknesses of each brand.

rellascout
January 10, 2010, 11:10 PM
I still dont have anything against glocks. I just like sigs and XDs as they suit me better. I guess its just personal preference. I do have to say I have found this thread very intersting though. there is alot of good info here that gives good insight into the strengths and weaknesses of each brand.

Exactly... 99% of what has been stated has been done so in a perfectly civil matter. Barbs have been exchanged but in a tongue and cheek manner.

The only people who are bent out of shape are those who treat their choice in firearm as an extension of themselves. When in reality there is no single Choice. It is simply a tool.

“It’s just a tool box. You pick the tool for the job.” -Sam from Ronin

"It's just a gun it does not define you as a human being. Don't make a bigger deal out of it then it needs to be. It just a tool."

NinjaFeint
January 10, 2010, 11:19 PM
By displaying your ignorance of how the process works. Most people in this discussion may not agree 100% but they are not injecting stupidity into the discussion.
You are showing your "stupidity" if you thought my high point comment was serious.

rellascout
January 10, 2010, 11:22 PM
You are showing your "stupidity" if you thought my high point comment was serious.

Then your little jab was then in fact bringing down the discussion was it not? :rolleyes: If it was a joke then why did you continue to defend the position?

NinjaFeint
January 10, 2010, 11:28 PM
Then your little jab was then in fact bringing down the discussion was it not? :rolleyes: If it was a joke then why did you continue to defend the position?
I was being facetious and my point was to illustrate that cost is not the only thing taken into account with the bids as you had stated. As I stated in a previous post, I work for a company that bids on government contracts. We have a laundry list of criteria we must meet and we have to try to do that at a lower cost than our competitors. You were misrepresenting the process and I was trying to show that with a far fetched example. So I have spelled it out.

rellascout
January 10, 2010, 11:31 PM
I did not misrepresent the process at all. Lowest bidder wins. Those who do not meet the spec do not bid.

Using your example Hi point would never bid because they could not meet the spec.

NinjaFeint
January 10, 2010, 11:37 PM
Lowest bidder wins. Those who do not meet the spec do not bid.

If you had of said it just like that, you would have been correct originally. If you are going to state a fact, state the whole fact.

Full Metal Jacket
January 10, 2010, 11:40 PM
It has nothing to do with quality. It has everything to do with price.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r225/lord_english/Facepalm/DualFacepalm.jpg

rellascout
January 10, 2010, 11:52 PM
If you are going to quote me you should also quote what I was reply to: Context is everything.

Somebody name a department that went from Glocks to Sigs? Just one? Hundreds have gone from Sig to Glock. Remember the FBI? Lousiana State Police? Henrico country, VA? must be a couple of hundred more.

I stated that moving from Sig to Glock is a monetary decision. It has nothing to do with quality. It has everything to do with price. I was reply directly to the above statement.

If you had quoted me in context you would see that it makes perfect sense.

Even if you do not want to take it in its proper context agencies reject bids from inferior vendors on their face. They are never even considered. I was making a statement in the context of this discussion. Glock Vs Sig. Both were assumed to meet the requirements. Glock wins more contracts simply because they sell for less. The only way Sig wins contracts is via sole source contracts or by helping the contracting officers/agents write the contract so Sig is the only complying vendor. This is the art of Govt contracting when you have a higher priced product in a market dominated by a low price competitor like Glock. If you are a govt contractor as you claim you would know that and understand the context of that statement.

Ky Larry
January 11, 2010, 12:03 AM
We went from Brand X Is better than Brand Y to name calling and semantics. Very 'High Road.'

NinjaFeint
January 11, 2010, 12:18 AM
If you are going to quote me you should also quote what I was reply to: Context is everything.



I stated that moving from Sig to Glock is a monetary decision. It has nothing to do with quality. It has everything to do with price. I was reply directly to the above statement.

If you had quoted me in context you would see that it makes perfect sense.

Even if you do not want to take it in its proper context agencies reject bids from inferior vendors on their face. They are never even considered. I was making a statement in the context of this discussion. Glock Vs Sig. Both were assumed to meet the requirements. Glock wins more contracts simply because they sell for less. The only way Sig wins contracts is via sole source contracts or by helping the contracting officers/agents write the contract so Sig is the only complying vendor. This is the art of Govt contracting when you have a higher priced product in a market dominated by a low price competitor like Glock. If you are a govt contractor as you claim you would know that and understand the context of that statement.
Not a government contractor but I work for a company that bids on government contracts yearly. Never claimed to be a government contractor. You keep adding details to what you originally said and as such I will end our fun little discussion on this subject.

rellascout
January 11, 2010, 12:26 AM
Cool you work for a company that does contract work for the Govt but you are not a Govt contractor. :scrutiny:

In the end price is what wins most LEO contracts for Glock. They meet the min requirements and are able to deliver the weapon for less than their competitors can. They make a pretty nice profit to boot.

I am not knocking Glock for that. GG has done a very good job of dominating that market. Sig for the most part cannot compete, mainly because of price not quality. This is one of the reason production was moved from German, high labor, to the US, still high labor but less than Germany. People claim that S&W is making in roads with the M&P but I have not seen a lot of data to back that up.

NinjaFeint
January 11, 2010, 12:46 AM
Rellascout, I know I said I was done but then you said

"Cool you work for a company that does contract work for the Govt but you are not a Govt contractor :scrutiny:"

I, "I" being the key here, do not work on the government contracts or participate in the bidding process. I am aware of them and their details because I know a lot of the folks involved with the processes. The people who work on the government contracts are on a different employment contract with my company than I am. My company is a government contractor, I am not. Understand?

Also, I could give two craps about Glock vs Sig vs XD vs M&P. I already posted in this thread they are all good guns and you should pick the one you like.

tunnug
January 11, 2010, 12:47 AM
Well!!! Everyone knows the old saying " opinions are like --censored-- everyone's got one and they all stink"

Shoot what you like and that's all that counts. :evil:

rellascout
January 11, 2010, 12:48 AM
Shoot what you like and that's all that counts.

QFT !!

rockhound758
January 11, 2010, 02:14 AM
FMJ, thanks for the "Picard and Riker" pic...gave me a much needed laugh! "Another Glock vs. Sig question? Oh no..." :)

Full Metal Jacket
January 11, 2010, 02:58 AM
lol no prob. i like that one too, rockhound :)

MrWesson
January 11, 2010, 03:18 AM
I am not a glock cool aid drinker but my g26 functions perfectly. If I ever have problems with it maybe I will try a sig :neener:.

Sapper771
January 11, 2010, 04:44 AM
I guess I will have to chime in too, but it will repeat a lot of what has already been said. I am by no means a pro, so what I am about to say is simply from my own experience and opinion.

I have to disagree with the OP's statement. Even if the OP's statement was Glock is better than Sig, I would still have to disagree. I agree that the choice between the two is personal. Just because a Sig works for the this guy, doesn't mean that it will work for the other guy. For every video that we show of a glock kabooming, we can also show pictures of the Sig's extractor problems. No manufacturer has a clean rap sheet. My last 1911 came from a very well respected and high end custom shop. Out of my initial 39 rounds fired through it , only 4 rounds fully extracted. I was upset, but I understand that it is a machine, and machines aren't perfect.

I own both Sigs and Glocks. I carry a Glock on duty(G31) and off duty(G21SF). The Glock just works better for me, and that doesn't mean the Sig is a POS. I have also owned numerous glocks in different sizes and calibers, never had a problem out of them. I have been to several different training schools where all of the involved officers and cadre carried Glocks, only problems I have witnessed were magazine related, never a kaboom or FTE/FTF. With that being said, that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. I own 3 sigs currently, a P6, 226, and a 232. All my Sigs are West German/German. I love shooting them, they are accurate and reliable. I am contemplating with running my Sig 226 through the sand and mud to see how she will do, we will see.

Yes, my preference is toward glocks simply because I have more contact time with them and they are what fills my needs and wants. I have also been in water, sand, dirt, and mud with my Glock 21, and it has never had an issue. Its just what works for me.

Its all in what you need, want, and what works for you. Saying that one is better than the other is just picking a fight.

REAPER4206969
January 11, 2010, 09:21 AM
How did Beretta win the M9 contract. They did not win because they had superior gun to Sig. They won because they had a cheaper gun that meet the min spec.
Wrong. The Beretta beat the SIG fair and square in both of the U.S. military trials.

sigman
January 11, 2010, 09:32 AM
:mad:

I was just stateing my opinion based on what i've read on the THR postings here throughout the months !

One thing is for sure ,Glocks are more sensitive to crap/cheap ammo.,and if fired " limp wristed " ,they may fail to recycle properlly.Plus if the plastic on the magazines become to chewed-up it may interfere with setting correctly into the pistol for proper feeding. :uhoh:

Blues Brother
January 11, 2010, 11:05 AM
I am not a glock cool aid drinker but my g26 functions perfectly. If I ever have problems with it maybe I will try a sig . what is glock cool aid???? please dont tell me that gun companies are making powdered fruit punch drinks now.

REAPER4206969
January 11, 2010, 11:11 AM
what is glock cool aid????
It's actually Flavor-aid.

rellascout
January 11, 2010, 11:12 AM
http://ftloveblog70.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/haterade-logo.jpg

Blues Brother
January 11, 2010, 11:52 AM
uh......... I dont get it.

gc70
January 11, 2010, 11:54 AM
How did Beretta win the M9 contract. They did not win because they had superior gun to Sig. They won because they had a cheaper gun that meet the min spec.

Wrong. The Beretta beat the SIG fair and square in both of the U.S. military trials.

Both wrong.

The U.S. military trials were not a sports contest in which the high score won. Both the Beretta and Sig met the qualification requirements to enter the bidding phase. As a matter of trivia, Beretta was not initially the cheaper gun; Sig actually had a slightly lower bid on its guns, but Beretta had a much lower bid on its parts package (in a second round of bidding), making the total Beretta bid lower than the total Sig bid. (see pages 4 and 5 of this article (http://www.americanrifleman.org/Webcontent/pdf/2009-11/2009111213533-beretta92.pdf))

NMGonzo
January 11, 2010, 11:55 AM
H&K are better because they are more expensive and they hate you and you suck.

j/k ...

I just miss my glock and my sig

Blues Brother
January 11, 2010, 11:59 AM
didnt glock bid on that US military trial thing??

REAPER4206969
January 11, 2010, 12:08 PM
didnt glock bid on that US military trial thing??
No.
The Joint Service Small Arms Program, abbreviated JSSAP, was created to coordinate weapon standardization between the various U.S. armed service branches.

Their first major program involved the search for a new 9x19mm Parabellum pistol to replace existing M1911A1 and a variety of .38 Special revolvers.[citation needed] Starting in the late 1970s and going into the next decade, the U.S. Air Force was originally selected to lead the selection process. Entrants included the Beretta 92S-1, Colt SSP, Smith & Wesson 459, FN DA, FN FA, FN High Power, Star M28, Heckler & Koch P9S and H&K VP70.[citation needed] The Beretta would be declared the winner, but the U.S. Army contested the results. The Department of Defense and JSSAP gave the task to the Army starting in 1981.[citation needed]

The first Army test resulted in all pistols failing. The standards were lessened and a retest was done, but again, none passed.[citation needed]

By 1983, a new program was started, now under the XM9 name. These service pistol trials would result in adoption of the Beretta 92F as the M9 Pistol.[citation needed] Note that these later trials did not have all of the same pistols competing.

Controversy over these trials lead to the XM10 trials, but these were boycotted by some makes and resulted in the Beretta M9 winning again.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Service_Small_Arms_Program

rellascout
January 11, 2010, 12:09 PM
The Beretta Model 92FS is the Italian gunmaker's flagship pistol. In the early 1970s, Carlo Beretta, Giuseppe Mazzetti, and the prolific Vittorio Valle began work on a successor to the Model 951 pistol. The Model 92, as it was dubbed in 1976, corrected many of the perceived faults of its forerunner. Foremost were the 951's awkward cross bolt safety and limited 8 round magazine capacity. The Model 92 also introduced a double-action trigger mechanism and an alloy frame. However, it retained the tilting-block locking mechanism and distinctive open-top slide.

The new design quickly gained a 40,000 unit contract from the Brazilian military; however, Italian police agencies wished a redesign of the manual safety. The original 92 had a frame-mounted sear-blocking safety (much like the Colt 1911), and Europeans preferred a firing-pin locking safety and decocker like Walther designs. So later in 1976, the pistol was redesigned to incorporate the desired safety, creating the 92S. Italian police and military orders quickly followed as promised, as did an order from the Indonesian military.

Another boast arrived when the US military's Joint Services Small Arms Program (JSSAP) began a search for a NATO-standard handgun to replace the venerable Colt Model 1911. The lead agency for this program was the US Air Force. While perhaps an odd choice at first glance, the USAF was particularly interested in replacing their hodgepodge of service handguns, which included a large number of .38 Special revolvers. The issue had been forced by the US Congress' refusal to fund acquisition of additional .38 special ammunition.

Beretta made a special version of the 92S (92S-1) for the JSSAP tests which included a repositioned magazine release, an ambidextrous safety, serrated front and back straps, and enlarged sights with white inlaid markings. After a year of testing, the USAF announced that the Beretta had beaten out its competitors and recommended its adoption. The competitors included the Colt SSP, the Star Model 28, the Smith & Wesson 459A, the FN GP35, the FN 'Fast Action' Hi-Power, the FN Double Action Hi-Power, the HK P9S, and the HK VP70.

However, the US Army was still peeved over having the M16 rifle forced on it because of the USAF in the early 1960s. They seized upon the poor performance of the control M1911A1 pistols to suggest that the USAF tests were unscientific and flawed (to be fair, the specific M1911A1 pistols used were at least 35 years old at the time of the test). The US Army went as far to even disagree with the consistency of the mud used in the environmental tests! With the assistance of the General Accounting Office, the US Army was able to convince Congress to prevent procurement.

In 1981, the US Army was given control of the JSSAP pistol trials, and the search began again. 85 requirements were laid down for the winning XM9 pistol; 72 were mandatory while 13 were desirable. Only four pistols were entered this time: the Beretta 92SB (an improved 92S-1), the HK P7M13, the S&W 459A, and the SIG-Sauer P226. However, all four failed, and strangely, the Beretta now finished dead last, even behind the M1911A1.

Congress and the GAO were infuriated by the waste of money with no apparent results. Procurement funds for additional .45 ACP ammunition was withheld until the US Army could formulate a test series that a manufacturer could pass. The XM9 trials started again in January 1984. During the mean time, Beretta had improved the 92SB again, calling the resulting pistol the 92SB-F. The competitors included the Colt SSP, the FN Double Action Hi-Power, the HK P7M13, the SIG-Sauer P226, the S&W 459, the Steyr GB, and the Walther P88. In the end, only the P226 and 92SB-F were considered to have passed all of the tests.

After a series of bids in which SIG-Sauer was the low bidder, Beretta was finally given the contract due to a lower price quoted on its spare parts. Needless to say, SIG-Sauer was extremely annoyed, and there were allegations that Beretta was shown SIG-Sauer's final bid in order to under-cut it. Moreover, the other manufacturers were upset for a variety of reasons. Several had worked up bids before they were told that they were in fact not eligible. Moreover, S&W's pistols had failed due to a mathematical error while converting to English units from Metric in determining firing pin energy.

After a series of GAO and Congressional investigations, another series of tests similar to the XM9 trials were ordered for 1987. However, these started off with controversy as well. The US Army fought to keep the 92F (now the M9) from being retested since it had passed the XM9 trials. SIG-Sauer insisted that the P226 didn't need to retested either since it had passed XM9 as well. On the other hand, S&W noted that the Beretta M9s were no longer being built to the standards of the XM9 trials, having received relaxation of several requirements including accuracy.

Around the same time, reports of M9 slide separations were becoming rampant in both the US Navy and Army. The Navy SEALs were arguably abusing their pistols by firing over-pressure ammunition in suppressed examples, while the Army's separations were blamed on the use of recycled slides from a French contract which contained tellurium. Events were becoming so bad that a Safety-of-Use message recommended that slides be replaced after 3000 rounds had been fired; however, this recommendation was lowered to 1,000 rounds after a M9 suffered a slide separation with less than 3,000 rounds fired.

Beretta took a two-pronged response. First, they sued the Department of the Navy because the SEAL Teams had leaked info of the slide separations to Ruger. Second, they designed a hammer pin with an over-sized head to fit into a groove machined in the slide. Thus, if the slide separated, it would not strike the user in the face. Commercially, these pistols are known as the 92FS

The XM10 tests were finally rescheduled for 1988 after being canceled the year before for lack of participation. Beretta refused to submit samples, so the US Army used off-the-shelf M9s. Beretta protested this, but since they had already refused samples, this protest was rejected. SIG-Sauer also refused to submit samples, standing on principle that they had passed XM9 the first time. S&W submitted their 459 again, and Ruger submitted their new P85.

Again, there were allegations of impropriety. The Army refused to relax their requirement for a chrome-lined bore, even if the barrel was made from stainless steel. Moreover, the S&W failed tests that they had passed in XM9. They were the only pistols to pass the XM9 accuracy requirements, yet they failed the XM10. The S&W also failed the corrosion tests in spite of the fact that the affected parts which failed XM10 were made from stainless steel, while the same parts in the successful XM9 samples were made from carbon steel. Ruger wasn't provided any reasons as to why their samples failed.

However, in spite of the military controversy the Beretta 92F has an excellent reputation in US law enforcement agencies, including the Los Angeles PD (the largest vocal exception is the NYPD's Emergency Service Unit). No slide separations have been reported, and the only part known for excessive wear has been the locking block. This was recently redesigned with radiused corners to prevent breakage. The 92FS has a stellar reputation for accuracy and reliability, and as long as the user has large enough hands it is an excellent choice in a 9x19mm pistol.

- Courtesy Daniel E. Watters


Lower cost of the pistol & parts kits were the determining factor= Beretta was the cheaper gun according to the contract requirements.

REAPER4206969
January 11, 2010, 12:13 PM
Both the Beretta and Sig met the qualification requirements to enter the bidding phase. As a matter of trivia, Beretta was not initially the cheaper gun; Sig actually had a slightly lower bid on its guns, but Beretta had a much lower bid on its parts package (in a second round of bidding), making the total Beretta bid lower than the total Sig bid.Correct. SIG $176.33 per pistol. Beretta $178.50 per pistol.

NMGonzo
January 11, 2010, 12:16 PM
Great.

Lowest bidder wins :(

REAPER4206969
January 11, 2010, 12:16 PM
Lower cost of the pistol & parts kits were the determining factor= Beretta was the cheaper gun according to the contract requirements. Winning is winning.

gc70
January 11, 2010, 12:22 PM
Correct. SIG $176.33 per pistol. Beretta $178.50 per pistol.

Even adjusting for inflation (around $369 per the Consumer Price Index), Beretta and Sig appear to have a decent profit margin in the commercial market.

rellascout
January 11, 2010, 12:22 PM
I am not arguing that. My point is that the lower total cost determined the winner. Both meet the requirements. Cheaper won the day.

IMHO too much hate is thrown at the M9. As my brother the Marine used to tell me a whole lot of bad **** has happened if you are relying on your M9 to save your life. The best course of action is to do everything in your power to avoid such a situation in combat.

I personally find the M9 too big but its not a bad gun.

rellascout
January 11, 2010, 12:23 PM
Even adjusting for inflation (around $369 per the Consumer Price Index), Beretta and Sig appear to have a decent profit margin in the commercial market.

Economy of scale is a wonderful thing.

Blues Brother
January 11, 2010, 12:24 PM
Great.

Lowest bidder wins

Remember what Alan Shepard said when they asked him what the last thing that went through his mind before his first trip into space. "I looked around the space capsule and realize that everything involved with this project went out to the lowest bidder."

REAPER4206969
January 11, 2010, 12:39 PM
Even adjusting for inflation (around $369 per the Consumer Price Index), Beretta and Sig appear to have a decent profit margin in the commercial market.Those prices were for a HUGE military contract.

REAPER4206969
January 11, 2010, 12:51 PM
I personally find the M9 too big but its not a bad gun.
The cause for M9 problems is lack of maintenance/lubrication and poor quality low bidder aftermarket magazines.

http://www.tacticalgunfan.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=230&Itemid=78

RobMoore
January 11, 2010, 12:52 PM
When you have two items that meet all your criteria, shouldn't the cheapest win?

If the one you end up with for some reason isn't as good as the more expensive one, you wrote your criteria wrong.

rellascout
January 11, 2010, 12:54 PM
The cause for M9 problems is lack of maintenance/lubrication and poor quality low bidder aftermarket magazines.

When you have two items that meet all your criteria, shouldn't the cheapest win?

If the one you end up with for some reason isn't as good as the more expensive one, you wrote your criteria wrong.

Agreed!

Full Metal Jacket
January 11, 2010, 12:59 PM
i read an article years ago that said the only reason the beretta was selected over the sig was a small price difference between the two.

plus the navy seals use the sig 226, so it must be a decent gun.

smoothdraw
January 11, 2010, 01:03 PM
Sigs are nice gun but i've seen Sigs jamming and FTE's before. Seen a lot of Glocks and have not seen any failure yet. So maybe Sigs have better parts but Glocks with the price they are selling them, i think they are better but that's just me. I own HK's and 1911's. Have shoot Sig's, Glocks, S&W, Springfield of my friends and routinely test them in our shooting range.

dom1104
January 11, 2010, 01:06 PM
hmm.

Very weird thread. kinda juvenile.

I can either have... as per the kinda inflated prices on Impactguns.com..

Sig 226 w/ night sights = $800 + 4 extra mags X $44 = 976

Glock 19 w night sights = $575 + 4 extra mags X $38 = 727

CZ-75 P01 w/ night sights = $628 + probably $80 for night sights + 4 extra mags x $35 = 848

The Sig setup is only $250 bucks more. Its not.. the end of the world. This is America, we all have good jobs, save the money if you like Sigs.

I have 4 CZs myself. I sure didnt pay no $628 dollars for my p01 tho heh and P01 mags can be had easily for $19 bucks each, but that would apply to all 3 pistols. So these are worst case costs.


I would agree with the fact that people who own glocks tend to shoot them more. Because you wouldnt buy a glock if you mostly just looked at your pistols. :) It doesnt have much going for it in the looks department.

I dont like Sigs much, I am warming up to Glocks and I love my CZs. But saying that sigs are far and away break them bank rediculous expensive is.. not really the case.

Silvanus
January 11, 2010, 01:15 PM
After spending over two years reading the posts on here i've come to a conclusion.
Sigs are more reliable than Glocks !
I read reports occassionaly about how Glocks have FTF and FTE problems.
But i have NEVER read any posts about ANY Sigs having these problems !

Sure Glocks are built like tanks and can take tons of abuse.
But i baby my firearms,they are my sweethearts !

I just got rid of my NEW Sig P229 9mm because even after a trip back to the factory, it still wouldn't work reliably.

My Glock 17 hasn't malfunctioned in over 8000 rounds so far...

This of course doesn't mean Glocks are more reliable than Sigs (or the other way around). It only shows that all brands can put out a faulty product from time to time.

rellascout
January 11, 2010, 01:16 PM
IF you actually are going to shoot the gun ammo is the most expensive part of any handgun purchase over its lifetime.

5000 rounds of 9mm = about $1100 at todays prices.

Blues Brother
January 11, 2010, 01:27 PM
plus the navy seals use the sig 226, so it must be a decent gun.

see now, to me that makes a statement. they are one of, if not THE most elite highly trained and functioning military units on the planet, and if they choose Sig it must be for a reason. I would think budget wouldnt come into play wiht the SEAL teams. I mean the SEAL unit isnt big so its not like the a few bucks a gun is a big deal in the grand scheme of military spending. I would bet that they get what they feel is the best gear available that they NEED to survive and accomplish their objectives. to me this just indicates there must be a reason they choose sig.

Full Metal Jacket
January 11, 2010, 03:05 PM
Wrong. Glocks are for people who actually shoot and are favored by shooters with more skill than money, Sigs are for people who like to play with them and not shoot them very much and have more extra money than skill (that's why they never notice there's a bunch of crap in the way of their thumbs on Sigs... If they actually knew how to shoot it'd bother them).

lol interesting point, my friend :)

greyeyezz
January 11, 2010, 03:16 PM
One thing is for sure ,Glocks are more sensitive to crap/cheap ammo.,and if fired " limp wristed " ,they may fail to recycle properlly.Plus if the plastic on the magazines become to chewed-up it may interfere with setting correctly into the pistol for proper feeding.

How many Glocks have you actually owned or shot? You seem very knowledgeable about Glocks from what you read. :confused:

blkbrd666
January 11, 2010, 03:20 PM
I thought the Sig and Beretta both passed the tests and came in with close bids...and the deciding factor was the fact that Beretta was going to run a factory in the USA where Sig couldn't, in a timely manner? Did I read that somewhere or just dream it?

Full Metal Jacket
January 11, 2010, 03:27 PM
One thing is for sure ,Glocks are more sensitive to crap/cheap ammo

:eek:

actually glocks are less sensitive to crappy ammo, as they have generous chamber dimensions. where are you getting your info? :confused:

NinjaFeint
January 11, 2010, 03:39 PM
:eek:

actually glocks are less sensitive to crappy ammo, as they have generous chamber dimensions. where are you getting your info? :confused:
It's a blatant troll thread so he has no info...but I can't judge, I got sucked in too.

Blues Brother
January 11, 2010, 03:58 PM
actually its not a bashing thread, so its been interesting reading for me. Its been civil and friendly banter. I think its good. I dont see anything offensive or bad about it.

Full Metal Jacket
January 11, 2010, 04:06 PM
It's a blatant troll thread so he has no info...but I can't judge, I got sucked in too.


i don't think it's a blatant troll thread. it's a valid topic. if some folks get bent out of shape over it, then that would be their problem.

it's all just opinions, if someone knocks a gun that i like, i'm not gonna cry in my beer about it.

Blues Brother
January 11, 2010, 04:11 PM
I dont cry in my beer. its poor manners. bad manners.

REAPER4206969
January 11, 2010, 04:17 PM
actually glocks are less sensitive to crappy ammo, as they have generous chamber dimensions. +1...

NinjaFeint
January 11, 2010, 04:21 PM
i don't think it's a blatant troll thread. it's a valid topic. if some folks get bent out of shape over it, then that would be their problem.

it's all just opinions, if someone knocks a gun that i like, i'm not gonna cry in my beer about it.
The words chosen by the OP are meant to get people going.

REAPER4206969
January 11, 2010, 04:25 PM
It worked.

JohnBT
January 11, 2010, 05:40 PM
"actually glocks are less sensitive to crappy ammo, as they have generous chamber dimensions."

Sure, but the more accurate guns tend to have tighter chambers, not oversized loose ones.

John

Full Metal Jacket
January 11, 2010, 05:51 PM
"actually glocks are less sensitive to crappy ammo, as they have generous chamber dimensions."

Sure, but the more accurate guns tend to have tighter chambers, not oversized loose ones.


here my 15 yard target with my totally stock glock 19:
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/champop1911/Pic4145029.jpg

rellascout
January 11, 2010, 06:02 PM
I love when people argue that a Sig is more accurate than a Glock or a Beretta.

99% of guns from manufactures of quality like these are inherently capable of greater accuracy than most shooters are capable of. 99% of the time it is not the mechanical accuracy of the pistol which is the weak link. It is the shooter.

Put them on a purely mechanical rest and take the shooter out of the equation and most guns will shoot lights out and the difference will be negligible. IMHO

JohnBT
January 11, 2010, 06:17 PM
I don't think so. Maybe among the typical average priced guns, but when you start talking about the best of the best, I just don't buy it. Do you really believe a Glock in a rest will match a P210 shot for shot?

Note how the pic demonstrating Glock accuracy was shot at 15 yards. Move back to 50 yards with the big boys :) and bullseye shooters. Sig talks about less than 2" at 50 yards with the X-5 L1 and Les Baer offers a 1.5" at 50 yards promise if you want to pay for the extra work. There are other makes as well and it usually costs a lot extra to wring out that last bit of accuracy, but saying most people can't take advantage of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I've seen people refuse to pick up the stretched Glock brass at the range. It's because of the oversized chambers that they don't want to bother reloading it.

John

AK103K
January 11, 2010, 06:17 PM
Stock SIG P229 and stock Glock 17, all shot from a concealed holster at around 10-15 yards, and some while moving, which was which? :)

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b9cf24b3127ccef8dff1c8087800000030O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7d700b3127ccec27f07dcd87500000010O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/


Glocks are more ammo "picky" and tend like their ammo hotter and with a jacket. If you load your own and have a Glock in the rotation, you pretty much need to load for the Glock, and the others will be OK. Doesnt always work the other way around.

From the standpoint of "target" accuracy, the SIG's generally do a little better, mostly because they offer a better sight picture and slightly nicer trigger. Shooting a little more realistically, I doubt you'll notice much of a difference.

rellascout
January 11, 2010, 06:30 PM
Do you really believe a Glock in a rest will match a P210 shot for shot?

Poor comparison IMHO. They are clearly not in the same class of gun. You are comparing a $500 gun to a $3000 gun.

If you want a fair comparison compare the Glock 17 to the Sig P226.

Also even taking your example you might tighten that group up from a mechanical rest from 3.5" to 1.5" for how much coin. $2500+?

Again you are proving my point for me. Yes there are bullseye shooters who can shoot 1.5" groups at 50 but they represent less than 1% of the shooting public.

In real world shooting environments arguments over my Glock is more accurate than your Sig are meaningless. They simply to not materialize for 99% of shooters in this world.

gmh1013
January 11, 2010, 07:09 PM
it's not so much the missile launcher as much as it is the missile

sigman
January 11, 2010, 07:16 PM
I actually shoot better groups my Sig P220 ST .45 cal. than i do with my Sig Pro 2022 .40 cal.. My P220 shoots a little high and to the left.While my Sig Pro is scattered within the three rings of black. Reassembleing my Sig Pro is a Mother F***er !

Spreaking of Pistol Co.'s that win contracts,no one has mentioned that France has a contract with Sig Sauer to make and sell them 270,000 Sig Pros. !

I just hope that all those Frenchmen have the time,and the aptitude,to reassemble a Sig Pro after all that wine,cheese,& love making that they do all the time ! LOL !! :p

Blues Brother
January 11, 2010, 07:18 PM
who are the people that pose for target photos??? man.......that would freak me out.

Skillet
January 11, 2010, 07:22 PM
I think that they are both ugly, yet they shoot alright, and are both quite reliable. we aren't all going to go dump our handguns in mud. so whats the point of this argument if we are basically talking hypothetical?

you get a handgun based off of your personal preference, how thick or thin your wallet is, and how it suits to your needs. so this argument is pointless.

(I prefer a CZ by the way.)

MTS840
January 11, 2010, 07:23 PM
see now, to me that makes a statement. they are one of, if not THE most elite highly trained and functioning military units on the planet, and if they choose Sig it must be for a reason. I would think budget wouldnt come into play wiht the SEAL teams. I mean the SEAL unit isnt big so its not like the a few bucks a gun is a big deal in the grand scheme of military spending. I would bet that they get what they feel is the best gear available that they NEED to survive and accomplish their objectives. to me this just indicates there must be a reason they choose sig.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=348859

It's not their choice of handguns that makes them elite, it's their training. The British SAS used Browning High-Powers for years. Other elite units from around the world use different handguns.

They would still be as elite if they used Beretta, Glock, H&K, Sig or Smith & Wesson, etc...

sigman
January 11, 2010, 07:25 PM
By that same reasoning.....why are all the Italian actors always type casted to play the " heavies " in all crime/gangster action movies ?
The $5000 Armani Suites,the slick-backed hair,the black luxuary cars with tinted windows ! LOl !! :cool:

P.S. they are also found of Glocks,Sigs,H & K's,and of course tricked-out 1911's !!

AK103K
January 11, 2010, 07:55 PM
who are the people that pose for target photos???
Most of the people in the ones I've seen look like undercover cops. The guns they have in the pics are also usually a giveaway.

StarDust1
January 11, 2010, 08:02 PM
Stock SIG P229 and stock Glock 17, all shot from a concealed holster at around 10-15 yards, and some while moving, which was which? :)

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b9cf24b3127ccef8dff1c8087800000030O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7d700b3127ccec27f07dcd87500000010O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/


Glocks are more ammo "picky" and tend like their ammo hotter and with a jacket. If you load your own and have a Glock in the rotation, you pretty much need to load for the Glock, and the others will be OK. Doesnt always work the other way around.

From the standpoint of "target" accuracy, the SIG's generally do a little better, mostly because they offer a better sight picture and slightly nicer trigger. Shooting a little more realistically, I doubt you'll notice much of a difference.
"Hmm," Glocks are ammo picky? I own three different sets of Glock pistols(9mm, .40S&W, & .45 ACP)including G-17/19/26 the G-22/23/27 and G-21SF/30SF/36!
In multiple thousands of rounds of shooting the only problems I've ever encountered revolved around the 30SF and it's dual recoil spring, which never failed to eject standard pressure .45 ACP brass directly into my face(hard), but ran like the wind when eating the heavy +P stuff...Aside from that, I've never had a single malfunction with any Glock pistol that wasn't instantly attributed to faulty ammo, ever!
Whats more, I've never even heard a reliable report of a Glock being finicky about choice of ammunition, though in the spirit of full disclosure, I have seen an 21SF KaBoom at the range(a double charged round of PMC 230gr factory ball)...
Just saying....

REAPER4206969
January 11, 2010, 08:35 PM
Sure, but the more accurate guns tend to have tighter chambers, not oversized loose ones.Glock is a combat pistol not a target toy.

REAPER4206969
January 11, 2010, 08:37 PM
Do you really believe a Glock in a rest will match a P210 shot for shot?
The P210 is not representative of a current SIG, and you know that.

Full Metal Jacket
January 11, 2010, 08:40 PM
Do you really believe a Glock in a rest will match a P210 shot for shot?

the sig 210 is a rare and expensive match grade target pistol that's hand fit.

it's a totally different beast than all other sigs, or glocks for that matter.

AK103K
January 11, 2010, 08:43 PM
Its not so much the hotter stuff thats the issue. I used to load a lot for an HK P7. That and a High Power. I had a load that worked well with both and never had any issues with either. Get my first Glock, and it wont get through a mag without a stoppage using the same load. So yea, depending on what your using, they may or may not be picky, and they do like the hotter stuff. Its pretty much accepted that you shouldnt use lead bullets too, although I know people who do and havent seen them loose any fingers yet. I never used them with my P7 either, and for basically the same reason. They supposedly werent good for the gas system on them either.

Back in the late 80's, Glock actually sent around a bulletin to dealers recommending the use of UZI "Black Tip" carbine ammo out of the then fairly new 17's. Apparently some people were using some ammo that was causing function problems, although I dont remember now which that was. I did personally see the bulletin though, so I know that was for real.

My current 9mm reloads are at the warmer end of the load data, and I shoot both commercial factory and NATO issue 9mm, as well as +P and +P+ out of both my 17's and 26's without issue. I have noticed that when I shoot WWB, that the brass is usually right at my feet, compared to my reloads and the NATO stuff, which is usually away from me a good bit. You can feel it when you shoot too.

the sig 210 is a rare and expensive match grade target pistol that's hand fit.
The 210 was actually the issue side arm for the Swiss military at one point.

RobMoore
January 11, 2010, 08:51 PM
and the Italians have a Lamborghini cop car

Full Metal Jacket
January 11, 2010, 08:52 PM
and the Italians have a Lamborghini cop car


:eek:

smoketheresfire
January 11, 2010, 09:00 PM
i can't join " The Sig Forum " unless i use any other email address than " yahoo.com ". I have 4 yahoo email accounts and one comcast account.
So i just read The Sig Forum,instead of actually joining and posting my own questions and comments......
Me too, *** is up with their registration. I'm not going to start another email account just so I can log on to SigForum. They won't take Gmail, Yahoo, Hotmail, or Comcast...what do they take?:scrutiny:
Sorry to get off topic.
BTW, I have both a W. German 226 and a G34...G34 all the way. Glock still feels like a toy though, just doesn't shoot like one.

f4t9r
January 11, 2010, 09:04 PM
everyone already knows that. Some just wil not admit it

Blues Brother
January 11, 2010, 09:13 PM
seriously now.....those targets with pictures of real people on them just aint right. what ever happened to using paper plates????

REAPER4206969
January 11, 2010, 09:16 PM
what ever happened to using paper plates????
I don't plan on getting attacked by paper plates.

mordechaianiliewicz
January 11, 2010, 09:20 PM
This thread is really still going on? People are still talking about this? Really?

JHansenAK47
January 11, 2010, 09:28 PM
The 210 was actually the issue side arm for the Swiss military at one point.
It was also the issue weapon for the Danish army as the M49. Supposedly they have them in Afghanistan with the Danish army but I have yet to see a picture of them in Afghanistan with one.

Blues Brother
January 11, 2010, 09:29 PM
I don't plan on getting attacked by paper plates.

uh...... why not use something like this????? those ones with actual pictures are just wrong. they look like some dude just hanging out, not like some attacker.


http://yourworldinfocus.com/images/person_target.jpg

sprice
January 11, 2010, 09:50 PM
if i was offered a sig and a glock- i'd take the sig. then sell it for two glocks ;)

BushyGuy
January 11, 2010, 09:52 PM
i would take my Ruger SR9 over any Glock or SIG -CUZ ITS AMERICAN MADE !!:cuss:

NinjaFeint
January 11, 2010, 10:15 PM
uh...... why not use something like this????? those ones with actual pictures are just wrong. they look like some dude just hanging out, not like some attacker.


http://yourworldinfocus.com/images/person_target.jpg
That dude had a gun:what:...Did you not see it? He was clearly dangerous

REAPER4206969
January 11, 2010, 10:24 PM
those ones with actual pictures are just wrong.
Are you aware that you're posting in a thread about combat handguns? Do you know what combat handguns are for?

REAPER4206969
January 11, 2010, 10:27 PM
CUZ ITS AMERICAN MADE
So?

..

Blues Brother
January 11, 2010, 10:47 PM
shooting targets isnt combat.

RobMoore
January 11, 2010, 10:49 PM
"if you can dodge a wrench...."

REAPER4206969
January 11, 2010, 11:02 PM
shooting targets isnt combat.
It's training for combat and it's best the targets are as realistic as possible.

Blues Brother
January 11, 2010, 11:03 PM
"if you can dodge a wrench...."

best post on this thread yet.

REAPER4206969
January 11, 2010, 11:03 PM
Do you live in MA?

AK103K
January 11, 2010, 11:08 PM
those ones with actual pictures are just wrong.
I know a lot of places wont let you shoot at targets that have a likeness on them, some wont even allow the silhouettes. Most of it is political correctness and insurance company driven, but even within the gun community, they seem to draw negative responses from some people.

Where they are superior to the plain silhouette type is, they present a realistic target, in more realistic positions, and with no scored aiming points, and force you to think and look for and shoot (or maybe not shoot at all) a more realistic vital/kill zone.

Its interesting that so many of these threads get so much heat going about which gun is better, for all sorts of reasons, but when you look at how most people practice and train, and what they worry about shooting wise, it kind of makes you wonder what all the fuss is about.

shooting targets isnt combat.
Shooting small groups on a static target at fixed ranges at your leisure isnt a realistic indicator of your skills either. Shooting each other with non lethal "weapons" comes about as close as you will want to get to combat, and its an eye opener to most "static" type shooters. Force on force type training with the better airsoft type guns, or if you have access to the more "painful" and realistic alternatives, take all this to a whole different level. Shooting tight little groups on a paper target becomes pretty much meaningless. All that shows is you have the basics down.

It all depends on what you want out of what your doing. All this arguing over which is the better gun is pretty much a joke if you cant actually use the silly thing. ;)

Blues Brother
January 11, 2010, 11:09 PM
It's training for combat and it's best the targets are as realistic as possible.

uh huh.

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