Should I get a BHP or a CZ-75


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armchairQB
January 10, 2010, 09:44 PM
First of all price is not an issue, I just want the best choice.

I understand these two guns are slightly related in that the CZ is designed after the BHP. Also, the BHP is not a 100% John Browning design correct? This does not matter to me as the BHP has a long proven history. I would be getting a MKIII or a 75B. What are the primary differences and similarities as well as strengths and weaknesses of these two pistols. My caliber would be 9mm of course.

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rellascout
January 10, 2010, 09:46 PM
BHP Search over!

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t213/rellascout/BHP.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t213/rellascout/BHP2.jpg

jonnyc
January 10, 2010, 09:47 PM
BHP...it is THE Classic!
I would like to like the CZs, but the trigger is too far away for me to shoot comfortably. The HP is perfect in every way. YMMV.

jfrey
January 10, 2010, 10:12 PM
I have only shot a CZ once and it was all right. The BHP on the other hand is a truely great pistol. They point naturally and rarely even malfunction, in my experience. There are some subtle things you can do to them to make them even better. Removing that pesky mag disconnect and polishing the sear will make the trigger much better.
It is true that there are few things left in the pistol that were John's original design, as it was completed after he died, but they did a good job in coming up with a final firearm that has been used all around the world.

LancerMW
January 10, 2010, 10:13 PM
i own both, and if given a choice i would take the BHP

Philo_Beddoe
January 10, 2010, 10:15 PM
CZ-75

The HP is not a "out of the box" shooter. It has a horrible trigger pull due to the mag disconnect safety. The mag disconnect safety is another annoying feature.

The CZ has way more models, has been continously updated, and better support and aftermarket parts.

The CZ is basically an improved BHP imo.

rellascout
January 10, 2010, 10:18 PM
There is nothing wrong with the CZ75B. It is a nice gun but IMHO it does not fit as many hands as the BHP. I used to own a great 75B but I constantly found myself adjusting my grip to shoot it properly.

The BHP simply fits my hand perfectly. YMMV

I recommend going to a shop/range put each one in your hand and one will call out to you. In the end you need to pick the gun that fits "you" best.

Zundfolge
January 10, 2010, 10:18 PM
The CZ is more customizable, but the BHP is always going to be worth more.

If money is truly no object, get both :D

Philo_Beddoe
January 10, 2010, 10:26 PM
For what you pay for a BHP you could have a super slick CZ 75 tactical sports

http://www.impactguns.com/store/SS-21628.html

That would shoot rings around any hi-power.

lev83
January 10, 2010, 10:41 PM
I have shot and owned both and must say I prefer the CZ 75B over the BHP. Better ergonomics and trigger IMO. But hey to each their own.

rellascout
January 10, 2010, 10:48 PM
For what you pay for a BHP you could have a super slick CZ 75 tactical sports

http://www.impactguns.com/store/SS-21628.html

That would shoot rings around any hi-power.

Simply not true.... The cost of the base gun plus novak nights, C&S hammer, sear, commander hammer, Wide trigger, extended slide, spegel grips and trigger job by a master gun smith cost me less than that CZ. People pay too much for BHPs because they are not patient and they do not know where to shop.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t213/rellascout/BHP2.jpg

PS if you want a bad ass CZ get yourself a Shadow from Angus. http://czcustom.com/CZ75_SP01_SHADOW_CustomShop.aspx

http://czcustom.com/images/products/detail/ShadowCS_2.jpg

railroader
January 10, 2010, 10:50 PM
Well if you are looking for something single action you could order a cz 75b single action only from ghost holster and they could do a trigger job on it before it ships. Another option is a witness match in 9mm. I haven't personally handled one but I have read great things about them online. Here's one at Buds' gunshop. Mark
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_231/products_id/54976
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/images/D11/54/54978.jpg

Philo_Beddoe
January 10, 2010, 10:51 PM
Simply not true.... The cost of the base gun plus novak nights, C&S hammer, sear, commander hammer, Wide trigger, extended slide, spegel grips and trigger job by a master gun smith cost me less than that CZ. People pay too much for BHPs because they are not patient and they do not know where to shop.

What did you pay for that gun?

Philo_Beddoe
January 10, 2010, 10:55 PM
The t/s has superb 2 lb SA trigger right out of the box

If money truely is no object I dont think you could beat it.

http://www.kellsrpc.com/images/cz_tactical_sports.jpg

rellascout
January 10, 2010, 11:01 PM
What did you pay for that gun?

Base gun was $475 the work with parts By Jim West of Wild West guns was about $650. IIRC

rellascout
January 10, 2010, 11:02 PM
Witness guns seem to be good values. They are CZ clones but they do an excellent job of modernizing them. Lots of people like their Witnesses. They are too big for my hands. So they are a not start for me. YMMV

GeezerwithGuns
January 10, 2010, 11:48 PM
I own both.

They are similar in layout, but very different guns all the same. The BHP is slimmer and is finished to a higher degree than the CZ. An earlier post mentioned the BHP trigger and magazine safety. Mine has had the safety removed and the trigger is excellent now. BTW - the CZ does not have a mag safety (good news). The CZ is a little beefier pistol and will not fit BHP holster. I can't say honestly that either gun is more accurate. They both shoot very well indeed. I've got probably over 1500 rounds through the Browning and it has never had a stovepipe or failure to feed. I don't have nearly that amount through the CZ, but it's been completely reliable as well.

My CZ is a single/double action model (75B) which allows it to be carried at half-cock. I wasn't expecting much of a trigger on the CZ, but I've been very surprised. It is quite good. Not match quality, but not bad at all. This is a kind of "whatever floats your boat" deal. I don't think you can go wrong with either gun.

New, BHP's do retail for quite a bit more, but the CZ's are still a real bargain at around $500 which is what I paid for mine two months ago. I was lucky to pick up my unfired BHP for $425 about four years ago. You can find bargains on the used market if you're patient. New, they start at about $800 now, I think.

Good luck and good shooting!

Oldnoob
January 11, 2010, 12:17 AM
I have both (C series BHP and SA CZ75b). The best comparison article I have seem was done by Mr. Stephen Camp (http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Browning%20and%20CZ.htm a great read). So instead listen to my poor wording, go read what he have to say about these two fine pistols.

I have to add, BHP is and will continue be my favor 9mm pistol no matter what other think.

BTW: CZ is not design after BHP. It just happen they share some similarities (spur and ring hammer, mag release bottom, grip panel...etc) . And even those similarities were often be seem in other pistols.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f185/johell/My%20gun/BHP.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f185/johell/My%20gun/CZ75BSApointdown.jpg

LancerMW
January 11, 2010, 12:24 AM
the bhp has a much better stock trigger than the 75b

Philo_Beddoe
January 11, 2010, 12:29 AM
the bhp has a much better stock trigger than the 75b

No, not even close.

A stock BHP has a magazine disconnect and an atrocious trigger until its removed.

Gun test recently measured its single action trigger with the magazine safety at 10lbs.

Philo_Beddoe
January 11, 2010, 12:34 AM
Another issue with the BHP is hammer bite.

Here is what guntest recently said about the BHP when they compared it to the Berretta ninety-two

Our Team Said: We didnít like the ergonomics, tactical limitations, sights, accuracy, trigger, nor price. We received a suggestion from a reader that makes sense to some of us. That suggestion was that Browning continue to offer the classic blued Hi-Power for those stricken with nostalgia, and then improve the other versions to more modern standards with features such as elimination of the mag disconnect, a trigger in the realm of 4ónot 10ópounds; beveled magazine well, better grips, slimmer rear ends on the ambi safety, longer safety levers, an extended tang to prevent hammer bite, checkering on the front and rear straps, and the option of tritium sights, to name a few items. The only thing Browning has done right with this gun over the years is to offer it in a slightly more serious caliber. Most of us would pass on it.

While I dont take everything they say as gospel truth, however you are basically looking at a $800 gun that has not changed much since 1935.

Now before you say anything about the 1911, the 1911 has undergone numerous refinements since 1911.

The BHP, not so much.

rellascout
January 11, 2010, 12:38 AM
The CZ has way more models, has been continously updated, and better support and aftermarket parts.

The CZ is basically an improved BHP imo.

Oldnoob is right the CZ is not a derivative of BHP. Their similarities are cosmetic only.

As far as aftermarket parts are concerned there are more than you will ever need for the BHP. Mecgar mags. C&S parts, Novak sights, Henie sights, MWG Barsto Barrels, grips of all kinds etc..... the list goes on and on.

Hammer bite can be corrected easily by replacing the hammer with a commander style or a Novak no-bite hammer. Philo_Beddoe you seem to have a bias against the BHP. Much of what you have posted is simply not the case.

The BHP has been updated several times. It started with an internal extractor. There were upgrades when they went from the originals to the MKII to the MKIII. I wish you would at least get your info correct.

rellascout
January 11, 2010, 12:46 AM
In the '80's, the Mk II hit the stage and deviated from the classic fixed sight Hi Power in its higher visibility fixed sights as well as its extended, ambidextrous thumb safety levers. It also had a narrow full-length rib atop the slide. The frame was forged like the older Hi Powers, but the finish could have very well caused major heart palpitations for those preferring polished blue finishes. Gone were the checkered walnut grips and in their place sat black, checkered nylon ones with thumb rests! The earlier production runs did not have the internal firing pin safety common the practically all of the soon to come Mk III pistols sold in the US.



In the late '80's, FN produced the Mk III. Imported by Browning, this version of the Hi Power initially had a forged frame and the gun retained not only the stocks, but also the extended thumb safety levers. Both the Mk II and the Mk III came with the now common spur hammer. The Mk III did not retain the rib on the slide and the fixed sights were larger and both front and rear dovetailed into the slide. Every Mk III that I've seen sold in the US came with the internal firing pin safety. These pistols' slide and frames were finished in a baked epoxy finish that has varied from somewhat dull to downright shiny black. Regardless, Browning calls this a "matte" finish. The shape of the ejection port was also changed to a more square one very similar to that of the 1911. This was done to increase the metal present at the lower rear of the port to reduce the chances of the slide cracking under extremely heavy use with stout loads.



With the introduction of the forty-caliber Hi Power, a change was made from forged to quality cast frames. Some gasped in horror at this. It was reportedly done, as the frame was stronger than the forged. It has been reported that after about 2500 rounds of forty-caliber ammo, the forged frames would warp. The cast ones did not and soon both the forty and 9mm versions were available only with cast frames, probably a manufacturing cost-cutting measure. Contrary to what some have reported, the slides on Hi Powers have never been cast. They continue to be forged to this day. Because the frames are harder, current Hi Power slides are tougher as they are heat-treated to a higher level than was possible with the softer forged frames.



Using the Mk III "chassis," several cataloged versions of the Hi Power exist today and probably some with specific special modifications for certain military or intelligence services throughout the world. In this country, we see:

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/BestHiPower.htm

Runningman
January 11, 2010, 12:55 AM
First of all price is not an issue, I just want the best choice.

I understand these two guns are slightly related in that the CZ is designed after the BHP. Also, the BHP is not a 100% John Browning design correct? This does not matter to me as the BHP has a long proven history. I would be getting a MKIII or a 75B. What are the primary differences and similarities as well as strengths and weaknesses of these two pistols. My caliber would be 9mm oif course.
The Browning HP Mark III are tuff and well made but come out of the box with a very heavy single action trigger. For the price they want for a new mark III BHP it should have a better trigger and sights out of the box IMO. BHP also use external frame rails. The Mark III use those not so cool magazine safety.

CZ use internal frame rails similar to the famed Sig P210. No Mag safety.

Not sure what you are after here as far as use. But if it is an accurate out of the box range gun with a good trigger than you may want to look at the CZ Tactical Sport in 9mm. The SA only trigger came out of the box a 1 1/2 pounds and is the most accurate 9mm I've ever owned.

Philo_Beddoe
January 11, 2010, 01:00 AM
Philo_Beddoe you seem to have a bias against the BHP.

Yes, I do have a bias against a $800 plus pistol with a 10lb SA trigger, hammer bite, and magazine disconnect right out of the box.

For my money I could have a CZ shadow with a better trigger, better sights, extended mag release, no hammer bite, and no magazine disconnect and 19 round magazine.

Dont get me wrong I think the BHP was a revolutionary design, but today I think there are better choices, expecially for $800 or more dollars.

rellascout
January 11, 2010, 01:07 AM
Yes, I do have a bias against a $800 plus pistol with a 10lb SA trigger, hammer bite, and magazine disconnect right out of the box.

For my money I could have a CZ shadow with a better trigger, better sights, extended mag release, and 19 round magazine.

Dont get me wrong I think the BHP was a revolutionary design, but today I think there are better choices, expecially for $800 or more dollars.

You are entitled to that opinion but I think it is a misinformed one. I habve owned several BHPs over the years. Everything for a Pre-T serious gun to a MKII. I have never come across a 10 lb trigger. I have had a few with some grit which went away after the mag disconnect was removed.

Its your money so if you want a shadow get one but I think you are being disingenuous about the BHP. To me its all about the feel of the gun in "your" hand. The CZ75 B simply does not do it for me. Nothing wrong with the gun besides the camming of the trigger but YMMV.

armchairQB
January 11, 2010, 07:51 AM
Mainly it would be used as a winter carry gun and gun I would shoot at my range handgun fun shoot that goes on twice a month. It would be shot often. I have heard about the issues with the mag safety and the horrendous trigger pull but I think these problems can be trained around.

The CZ seems more utilitarian and more fitting in the modern gun community as was mentioned earlier.

Mizar
January 11, 2010, 09:51 AM
Most of the "issues" of the Hi-Power (magazine disconnect, hammer bite and sharp edges on the safety) can be resolved for half an hour without changing any parts, only with a punch, a file and some cold blue... And this is not a "must do" for most of the owners.
If one does not like the Hi-Power - it is fine with me, but please do not exaggerate on non-existing problems.

Boris

Philo_Beddoe
January 11, 2010, 10:35 AM
Mainly it would be used as a winter carry gun and gun I would shoot at my range handgun fun shoot that goes on twice a month. It would be shot often.

If you are gonna carry it, one of the CZ compacts would probably serve you best.

http://cz-usa.com/products/by-category/compact/

Smaller overall package then the full size BHP and CZ 75, yes still large enough to be excellent range shooters.

Just make sure that if you want "cocked and locked" single action carry to get either the polymer cz p-07 duty or the all steel cz 75 compact as the others have decockers

Philo_Beddoe
January 11, 2010, 11:15 AM
A decent write up comparing the too.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/CZ-75%20or%20BHP.htm

rellascout
January 11, 2010, 11:25 AM
Contrary to what's sometimes said, the CZ is not based on the Hi Power. They may be somewhat similar in appearance, but their internals differ very significantly. The CZ is considerably more complex and difficult to detail strip. If being able to completely disassemble a pistol for cleaning, inspection, or repair is important to you, the Hi Power is probably the better choice.



Nice link to Mr Camps site. It directly contradicts your earlier statement.

The CZ is basically an improved BHP imo.

Your opinion would be wrong as many of us have pointed out.

stevemis
January 11, 2010, 12:07 PM
As someone who has owned several of each, I can say they are both fine handguns and you'd be well served by either or both.

My only recommendation would be, if everything else is equal, go with the one that fits you and points best.

Philo_Beddoe
January 11, 2010, 01:01 PM
Your opinion would be wrong as many of us have pointed out.

Not really I used "improved" in a loose sort of way.

I know the CZ and BHP are different internally, however they look very similar and have the same philosphy of design, that being a all steel, thumb safety, double stack, hammer fired, 9mm pistol.

By the same token I view the XD and M&P as improved glocks.

Even though the are not exactly the same designs, they look very similar and share the same design philophy of striker fired, polymer, double stack handguns.

Mizar
January 11, 2010, 02:10 PM
Philo_Beddoe, it's what's inside that counts in this case. By your logic a Walther P38 and P5 are completely different guns yet the internals on both pistols are almost the same.

Boris

GlockFan
January 11, 2010, 02:35 PM
I love reading posts like this. It does not matter what anyone else thinks. Go and feel both guns. Find someone to loan you one to shoot or rent one. You need to get the one that feels best to YOU!

rellascout
January 11, 2010, 02:41 PM
I love reading posts like this. It does not matter what anyone else thinks. Go and feel both guns. Find someone to loan you one to shoot or rent one. You need to get the one that feels best to YOU!

QFT!!!!

rellascout
January 11, 2010, 02:43 PM
Not really I used "improved" in a loose sort of way.

I know the CZ and BHP are different internally, however they look very similar and have the same philosphy of design, that being a all steel, thumb safety, double stack, hammer fired, 9mm pistol.

By the same token I view the XD and M&P as improved glocks.

Even though the are not exactly the same designs, they look very similar and share the same design philophy of striker fired, polymer, double stack handguns.

Explains perfectly why you are making the inaccurate statements you have.

Simply because something looks like something else does not make one a derivative of the other.

rellascout
January 11, 2010, 02:45 PM
Philo_Beddoe, it's what's inside that counts in this case. By your logic a Walther P38 and P5 are completely different guns yet the internals on both pistols are almost the same.

Boris

Well put!

HexHead
January 11, 2010, 02:52 PM
To the OP, if money's not an issue as you say, get a 1911 in 9mm. Best trigger of the bunch.

rellascout
January 11, 2010, 02:55 PM
To the OP, if money's not an issue as you say, get a 1911 in 9mm. Best trigger of the bunch.

I prefer the BHP over my S&W 1911 9mm Pro series. Shot them both about 30 minutes ago. THe BHP simply fits "my" hand better.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t213/rellascout/IMG_0086.jpg

kentucky_smith
January 11, 2010, 03:23 PM
I've never had a problem with BHP triggers and the worst has always been better than a comparable sig 22x series, SW 1st,2nd and 3rd gen and other autos. I have found several creepy CZ triggers. Neither are deal-breakers.

Philo_Beddoe
January 11, 2010, 04:16 PM
To the OP, if money's not an issue as you say, get a 1911 in 9mm. Best trigger of the bunch.

If you dont mind being limited to 11 rounds.

The SP-01 carries 20

I have big hands so the thick cz grip feels comfortable to me.

In fact my hands are so big the CZ almost look small in my hands. :)

Philo_Beddoe
January 11, 2010, 04:18 PM
Simply because something looks like something else does not make one a derivative of the other.

But that doesnt mean they dont have the same philosphy of design.

I mean its pretty obvious the XD and M&P were intended to compete with that other polymer, striker fired, no manual safety, double stack, auto. :)

rellascout
January 11, 2010, 04:28 PM
But that doesnt mean they dont have the same philosphy of design.

I mean its pretty obvious the XD and M&P were intended to compete with that other polymer, striker fired, no manual safety, double stack, auto.

Same design philosophy does not equal a valid connection it terms of design. These two guns took totally different approaches to an all steel 9mm. Only those who do not understand how the guns actually operate think that the 75B is derivative.

Two completely separate designs with complete separate heritages.

armchairQB
January 13, 2010, 07:17 PM
Well I went to buy a HP today. It was glorious. Not a MK3 but an unfired MKII. Parkerized w/ original box. It was marked way too high but I knew they were negotiable. From $850 down to $600 out the door. I dont think it is the best price but it is definitely not the worst either. Filled out the paperwork and...........

GOT DELAYED!!!!!

Well cripes. A few more days....

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