Which to choose from. PTR Vs. DPMS 308?


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kmcintosh78
January 11, 2010, 03:34 PM
Looking at a possible upgrade in Semi auto rifles.
With cost being similar, which is going to be the most accurate?

Thanks

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stubbicatt
January 11, 2010, 07:34 PM
I don't know, but I'd be willing to guess that you will get better accuracy from the AR platform. I don't particularly like them, but there are too many well known accuracy tricks on that platform.

That said, you do get certain benefits from the PTR91, including inexpensive magazines, and a plethora of accessories these days.

I prefer the PTR.

2aHawaii
January 11, 2010, 07:43 PM
I was recently looking at the DPMS 308 as it is nice, accurate, and has relatively inexpensive PMags for it. The thing I didn't like about it, is that it is heavy, but the PTR doesn't look to be much lighter.

If you are looking for accuracy, the DPMS should be your choice and could get you sub-MOA.

Maverick223
January 11, 2010, 07:48 PM
I agree with stubbs, the AR is likely to be the most accurate (both out of the box and after you dump money into it), but I too prefer the PTR-91.

:)

Uncle Mike
January 11, 2010, 08:04 PM
You know, I have one of those PTR-91's....been sittin; in the steel box for quite a while.
Just before Thanksgiving one of the local grocery stores tossed out a dumpster full of spoiled turkeys....yeah, you guessed it.

We brought some of those stankey ol' birds over to the range and had at them with various different ammo and firearms...what fun!

Long story short...I dusted off the PTR since it was at the shop and went to work on those birds, so I know you can repeatedly blow up spoiled turkeys at 100y with one!

I'd bet an AR would do the same! hehehehehe

Maverick223
January 11, 2010, 09:01 PM
Long story short[er]...so I know you can repeatedly blow up spoiled turkeys at 100y with one!That is good to know, I will have to tag this thread in case of a zombie turkey invasion. :p

Uncle Mike
January 11, 2010, 09:59 PM
You never know...one day, they will have their revenge!

SlamFire1
January 11, 2010, 11:03 PM
The DPMS will be more accurate, sights have finer adjustments. The PTR91 is a battle rifle.

I have a PTR91 and I like mine, but it really is a battle rifle not a target rifle.

<SLV>
January 11, 2010, 11:43 PM
Get the DPMS LR-308b. Perfect 18" length. There's one here on THR - just listed for $1,000.

The PTR rips up brass on extraction.

Shear_stress
January 12, 2010, 08:38 AM
Never shot them side by side, but the DPMS has a better reputation for accuracy, though the PTR is no slouch, especially with the heavy barrel and a Bill Springfield trigger job.

On the other hand, my PTR was the klutziest rifle I've owned. Too front heavy and with truly bizarre charging handle placement . . . and with the lack of a bolt hold open, you get really acquainted with that charging handle. Seemed like the whole contraption was designed by Venutians who only knew firearms through intercepted TV broadcasts.

The_Hammer_Man
January 12, 2010, 08:57 AM
Quoting Shear Stress :
Seemed like the whole contraption was designed by Venutians who only knew firearms through intercepted TV broadcasts.

You should be allowed near a keyboard son.. I dang near died laughing over that comment of yours!

And that has to be the best description of a PTR I've ever read. Personally I always thought it had been designed by a committee of "short bus" occupants on the recess break.

And yes I have owned one of those things for years... so I can talk bad bout mine all I want to...

I also own a DPMS SASS (18" bull barrel"). Yes it's a heave gomer BUT ... w/ 168 gr match ammo I consistently get sub moa groups out of it.

The only things I've "added" to my rifle are a good muzzle brake and an Enidine buffer.
(Muzzle brake is the Primary Weapons Systems PRS for .308)

YMMV,

THM

stubbicatt
January 12, 2010, 02:24 PM
Thus sprake <SLV>:"The PTR rips up brass on extraction."


I dunno. Mine doesn't damage the brass, and *if* I can find the brass shucked from my PTR91, I can reload it just fine. 'Course it does have a port buffer.

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j187/stubbicatt/PTR%2091/jan%201%202009/IMG_0653.jpg

RANDYINSEVILLE
January 12, 2010, 02:26 PM
Fal !

Z-Michigan
January 12, 2010, 02:35 PM
I've owned and shot both. DPMS will be more accurate and better in most ways. PTR is less expensive than the HK it clones, but it is still a $500 stamped gun selling for $1000 or more. It sends brass into orbit, recoil is variable and unpleasant, OEM sights are awful, triggers vary but can be awful, it is ammo sensitive, cocking effort is ridiculous (I am bigger than some linebackers, FWIW), reach to the thumb safety is best suited for NBA stars (note prior comment), etc. etc. I sold my PTR and never miss it.

The DPMS is basically an AR in .308. With the new Pmags for it mags are plentiful and reasonably priced ($19 for Pmags, $20 for C-P stainless mags that have worked fine for me, $30 for DPMS branded mags). Easy to scope, mild recoil, inherently accurate if you get one of the models with a free-floated barrel.

Birddog1911
January 12, 2010, 02:36 PM
Neither, M14!!

Okay, got that out of my system. Most people, other than the gent above me, state that the CETME/G3 will tear brass up. I honestly can't speak to the PTR itself. So, if your going to reload, do a bit of research, but the AR might be the better platform.

As far as accuracy, your going to get better from the AR platform. Like someone else said, the PTR is a battle rifle. I also know that the G3 has the crappiest trigger of any battle rifle, but again, I don't know if that applies to the PTR.

<SLV>
January 12, 2010, 04:18 PM
Generally the damage to the brass from a PTR is on the rim of the cartridge due to the powerful positive extraction.

Z-Michigan
January 12, 2010, 04:33 PM
Generally the damage to the brass from a PTR is on the rim of the cartridge due to the powerful positive extraction.

1) Have you owned a PTR?
2) Do you understand how the mechanism works???

There is not positive extraction in the normal sense. Instead, the cartridge case itself is pushing the bolt backwards (a blowback action). The blowback is delayed by the roller mechanism, but is still fast and violent. When I could find spent cases, the damage was usually a severe crease (not just a dent, a crease) in the side of the case. There were often marks from the chamber flutes, but that damage was tiny compared to the crease from hitting the ejection port at some really high speed. As far as I can remember the case rims were not typically damaged, at all.

<SLV>
January 12, 2010, 05:00 PM
Nope. Never owned one. Had a friend who did, and he told me all of his brass was unusable after being cycled through the gun. He said it was typical of the model. I personally find it ugly and prefer the DSA STG-58.

Uncle Mike
January 12, 2010, 06:52 PM
Stubbicat, that PTR of yours looks to running nice!
which buffer did you use....? the size...?

stubbicatt
January 12, 2010, 07:43 PM
It is a port buffer. A rubber bumper at the rear of the ejection port to prevent the kind of case damage which Z-Michigan describes.

After years of futzing around and such with rifles, I have contented myself with this one EBR.

Here's a photo of the port buffer.

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j187/stubbicatt/PTR%2091/P1020372.jpg

It is the stamped piece which goes over top of the receiver just behind the ejection port.

Also the requirement for the "ET Thumb" required to manipulate the safety/selector has been eliminated by the Williams Ambi Safety. The rifle is really easy to put on safe or fire. The trigger was massaged by Bill Springfield, and is a respectable trigger. Bill also did the paddle mag release, which makes the rifle sweet!

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j187/stubbicatt/PTR%2091/jan%201%202009/IMG_0655.jpg

I really do not think one can improve on a rifle design over this one. It fits me so well, it is nearly perfect. I can point shoot on pepper poppers out to about 80 yards and get hits every time, it just instinctively comes up to the point of aim for me. Those who complain of the recoil impulse mystify me. I've shot side by side examples of the M1a, the FAL, and the PTR and they all recoil the same to me, as they should as they all shoot the same ammo.

I guess some people just don't respect the outstanding iron sights on this design as they should. The claw mounted scope is also a great design. I love the 22 lr. adapter kit too. With an autosear the rifle is just so much fun to shoot, both in 308 or 22lr.

It's ok that other people like other designs better. It took me awhile to settle on this one too, having done the rest. I am NOT impressed with the AR rifles, as they just don't fit me as well. That and the "sprooooiiiiinnnng!" under my ear is distracting. I'm sure you get used to it after awhile.

I hope you choose a good one that makes you as happy as this one does me.

Uncle Mike
January 12, 2010, 08:23 PM
Looks like the short one?

I like the paddle mag release, should have been incorporated in that design from the git go!

bozzman3
January 12, 2010, 08:38 PM
I have never shot a DPMS,but do own a AR15.The PTR is one fun gun to shoot!When shooting the PTR at the range you are never lonely due to people asking about it!Mine digest any kind of ammo,spits brass out like a weapon and is just a hoot to shoot!Mags for cheap and a amazing scope and mount for $300bucks.A Bill Springfield Trigger job is recommended.

Hatterasguy
January 12, 2010, 09:17 PM
I'll vote for a real HK, not a clone.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=153148869

Z-Michigan
January 12, 2010, 09:47 PM
You would rather pay SEVEN times what the gun is worth rather than just two? OK, well, have fun! (There's about the same level of machining and assembly in an AK as in a G3 type. Note, and read up all the history you want, the Germans wanted FALs but couldn't get a manufacturing license [I guess Belgium was still a bit miffed about the whole Blitzkrieg thing], so they modified the CETME, which just happened to have been designed by ex-Nazi German engineers anyway, instead.)

Maverick223
January 12, 2010, 09:59 PM
I'll vote for a real HK, not a clone.Why on God's green earth would you pay that much of a premium over a rifle that is made in the USA with H&K tooling, and operates just as good? The only "advantage" that I see can be summed up in too letters...H...K...not too impressive to me. :confused:

Uncle Mike
January 13, 2010, 02:21 AM
H K

H igh
K alonic

stubbicatt
January 13, 2010, 08:40 AM
I sense a great deal of animosity towards HK? If the guy wants one, more power to him. Probably he will be able to sell it for what he paid for it. They command a higher price for reasons beyond my grasp! You are right about them being stamped with little machining, but so what? These rifles work well, are AK reliable, shoot 308, have a whole lot of neat accessories. You can't go wrong with the HK 91, or Gew.3.

Years ago when I first started messing around with firearms etc., the Hk stuff was already high priced. The Rolex guys seemed to think they were buying quality, or maybe they thought they were buying "exclusivity." Heck, magazines were like $40 apiece! Now? $3 apiece.

It is a great rifle. Whether it is worth what they sell for is a determination that can only be made by each individual.

Maverick223
January 13, 2010, 10:39 AM
I sense a great deal of animosity towards HK?Not here, I like (and own) H&K, but I won't pay 3x as much because it has those two letters on it.

:)

bk1
January 13, 2010, 12:12 PM
I did a lot of research 9 months ago and chose the PTR. I spent a lot of money on the platform including the .22 conversion and Hendsolt scope.

Once we thawed out and I took it to the range, I was disappointed. This battle rifle that was supposed to be dead nuts reliable couldn't properly cycle surplus ammo. Even the PRVI M80 ammo would not cycle.

After then doing more research (keep in mind this was a couple months later by this time) I discovered that many people had this same issue. Basically, the barrel they put in was optimized for accuracy, not reliability. The solution is to put in a HK made barrel which runs $200+ just for the barrel. Then, it's another $250+ for the gunsmith's time to install it and finish it etc.

So, after all of that, I would also say look for a good FAL. I think the DPMS like others have said is the most accurate. However, it's not "battle proven" so you need to factor that in.

I almost wish I would have just got a HK91. I have seen them locally for about $1800 which isn't that much more than you would spend on a PTR after upgrading the barrel etc.

That said, I do have a second PTR (see how committed I was to the platform) that performs much more reliably with the PRVI ammo. So, it may be luck of the draw on which PTR you get. Are you willing to run that risk on a $1000+ rifle?

NelsErik
January 13, 2010, 12:16 PM
Doesn't Jeff Quinn from Gunblast say that his DPMS LRT-SASS .308 AR is the most accurate rifle he has ever fired...

He says it here (http://www.gunblast.com/DPMS-Pardus.htm)

and

and here... (http://www.gunblast.com/Timney-AR10.htm)

Floppy_D
January 13, 2010, 12:59 PM
I've owned both. If I wanted the more accurate of the two for target work, I'd go with the LR-308. If I wanted something more rugged and a little different, I'd go PTR-91. Mine would keep 10 shots inside a silver dollar all day long, which is all I really wanted out of it.

Hatterasguy
January 13, 2010, 02:34 PM
I'd buy the HK because for starters I can sell it in 5 years for the same or more than what I paid, but also the PTR IMHO falls short.

PTR uses a cheap steel barrel, I want at least chrome if not nitride, thats a deal breaker for me.

IMHO its not like DSA, DSA actualy builds a better Fal than FN did. PTR doesn't build a better G3.

BTW I don't own any HK products, I think they are all overpriced.

Z-Michigan
January 13, 2010, 03:01 PM
For all those saying the G3/PTR is battle proven - it's also proven that it can be disabled by denting the receiver. The G3 armorer's tool kit actually includes a hammer for removing dents (which cause the bolt carrier to hang up). Yes, it has a pretty good reputation for real world reliability, but I don't know of any other gun, including the stamped AKM, that can be readily disabled by denting its receiver.

The LR-308 is by no means battle proven, but it is basically a larger AR, and you can readily buy and store all the likely breakage items. DPMS sells a $65 spares kit that has everything that might break with the exception of the bolt itself.

But I don't think the OP indicated plans to go to Mogadishu anyway. For hunting or range use I don't think there is any comparison.

cz85cmbt
January 13, 2010, 03:50 PM
PTR's are great battle rifles, most accuracy reports run from 1.5 -2.5" but have been battle tested as unbeatable (well maybe not the ptr's exactly but the g3). The AR 10's have never had a huge reputation for unstoppable reliability but hard to tell if that is rumor or true. I know newer versions of the AR 10 are reliable just not sure how much so, after all the knights armament has a contract to replace the m14 as a DMR. The AR 10 will have incredible accuracy, sub MOA.

DRYHUMOR
January 13, 2010, 08:11 PM
I had an HK91 some years ago. It was a no nosense close battle rifle, mine had the set trigger. That first shot is the best, the followups had a longer reset. I had no issues with it. I ran 150 gr, 168 gr, and maybe some 175 gr through it. Mine had a port buffer, no brass issues, in fact it dropped most of it with a couple of feet. I had both the standard stock and the collapsable. The sights were OK, just OK. but not bad or good. I think it would shine with a Holo or Red Dot though.

Cocking handle isn't hard or bad or complicated, It's actually pretty handy IMO. Open bolt ready, slap the handle to cycle and start shooting.

I really boils down to what feels good, that you can shoot well. I've been issued M16's and owned AR's, I actually prefer (have) an M1a, and have a PTR.

Maverick223
January 13, 2010, 10:50 PM
I'd buy the HK because...BTW I don't own any HK products, I think they are all overpriced.Well...that about sums that up. I do own an HK (not a G3, HK-91, nor do I own a PTR-91 right now), but I have experience with both and wouldn't pay for the difference; nor do I don't purchase any rifle for a better resale (there are better investments than rifles), I buy em' cause I like to shoots em'. http://forums.nitroexpress.com/images/graemlins/smilies/general/toothless.gif

Hatterasguy
January 13, 2010, 10:54 PM
Their are far better investments than rifles. I just view them as a hobby, and a purchase that holds its value a bit better than say a computer.

RobMoore
January 13, 2010, 11:07 PM
As for the HK vs PTR copy

If I were buying it to impress my friends at the rod and gun club, I'd buy the HK.

If I were buying it to shoot, I'd get the PTR-91

Maverick223
January 13, 2010, 11:23 PM
...a purchase that holds its value a bit better than say a computer.I have to agree with that. I think anything except for food holds value better than 'puters. :D

As for the HK vs PTR copy...If I were buying it to impress my friends at the rod and gun club, I'd buy the HK...If I were buying it to shoot, I'd get the PTR-91Yep.

:)

Retro
January 15, 2010, 04:52 PM
PTR91:
1. Self-cleaning at the range (ejects the brass 30 feet forward in an oblique angle, i.e. you never have to clean up those dented brass ... they are so far and away).
2. Completely free-floated design (nothing on the barrel is touching anything...)
3. consistent cheek weld with the Magpul-PRS.
4. Thompson center Chrome Moly match grade bull barrel
5. Must purchase the version with wielded rail on the receiver, as aftermarket claw-mount are notoriously inconsistent and moves during recoil (original HK claw mount is fitted to the individual receiver and carries the same serial number).
6. Faster rate of cycling.
7. Does not feed tar-sealed surplus 7.62.
8. 1/12 twist favors 150 grain, not 175 or above (which requires 1/10 twist rate).
9. When PTR91 goes out of business, there will be no more HK91 clones left in this country...

LR308:
1. Play between upper and lower receiver will alter the consistency of your cheek weld because the scope in on the upper receiver, and the stock is on the lower receiver.
2. Problem with DPMS steel mags, causing failure to feed, or warping the bullet during feeding... a big problem in the recent months.
3. Not truly "free-floated" as the gas tube is contact with the barrel and the bolt.
4. frequent dissembly of upper and lower receiver will enlarge the aluminum rear pivot hole in the lower receiver and gradually cause play between the 2 receivers.
5. Great for 168 grain or above due to 1/10 twist rate.
6. thicker bull barrel than PTR91, also heavier.

Retro

FFMedic
January 16, 2010, 01:41 AM
Had a PTR, happily sold it for a DPMS LR-308. With new .308 PMAGS any doubt should be remover from the decission. Unless you want a PTR because it's a PTR, get the DPMS.

stubbicatt
January 16, 2010, 06:26 PM
z-michigan saith: The G3 armorer's tool kit actually includes a hammer for removing dents (which cause the bolt carrier to hang up).Yes, it has a pretty good reputation for real world reliability, but I don't know of any other gun, including the stamped AKM, that can be readily disabled by denting its receiver.

Wow. That's cool. I'll be very careful on my range excursions to NOT dent the receiver, as I don't have one of those hammers...

I am sure that any rifle receiver can be damaged in such a way as to render it inoperable. Inadequate lubrication, perhaps dirt or sand, an errant round, all these can ruin your rifle. In all the time I've shot my PTR91, I've not had any of these issues, but then I'm not wading through alligator infested swamps, scaling cliffs, or any of these things. I calmly drive to the range, remove the rifle from its padded case, insert a magazine, charge the weapon and fire a few rounds. I chat with my buddies, maybe drink some water, go for a hike, then I put the rifle back in its case, drive home, remove it again for thorough cleaning, place it in the safe, and drink a beer.

If your use for a rifle routinely exposes it to damage due to denting, then WHATEVER YOU DO don't get one of these rifles. ;) Instead, get a muzzle loader, so you can be sure not to damage the receiver. :rolleyes:

praharin
January 16, 2010, 09:57 PM
At some point this year, CMMG is supposed to be releasing a .308 AR platform that accepts G3 mags. They have receivers now, but they require some minor machining to make it work from what I have read.

Maverick223
January 16, 2010, 10:13 PM
At some point this year, CMMG is supposed to be releasing a .308 AR platform that accepts G3 magsWow, I don't know what would be better the DPMS with PMags that are relatively cheap and very reliable/durable, or the CMMG with G3 mags that are the cheapest mags available and still very reliable. Just my 99 cents (G3 mags ;)), but I think I would have to take the CMMG.

:)

Z-Michigan
January 16, 2010, 10:59 PM
G3 mags are not designed to activate a last-shot bolt hold-open. I would suggest that the standard AR10 mags are better, now that there are $19 .308 Pmags, $20 CP stainless mags, and G3 mag prices are going up.

mongo4567
January 17, 2010, 01:10 AM
bk1 - This battle rifle that was supposed to be dead nuts reliable couldn't properly cycle surplus ammo. Even the PRVI M80 ammo would not cycle. After then doing more research (keep in mind this was a couple months later by this time) I discovered that many people had this same issue. Basically, the barrel they put in was optimized for accuracy, not reliability. The solution is to put in a HK made barrel which runs $200+ just for the barrel.

I've heard that this was attributed to a tight and/or slightly rough chamber. If you talk with the PTR customer service, I've heard that they are only intended to function with commercial .308. From what I've heard, they work fine with surplus after a few hundred rounds break in. I should be able to tell you soon.

A friend and I each have one, we experienced the same problem with surplus. They both run fine with commercial .308, I ran mine with a few boxes of Federal. My buddy's functioned fine with steel cased Monarch; supposedly questionable for a fluted chamber like this.

Z-Michigan
January 17, 2010, 11:04 AM
My buddy's functioned fine with steel cased Monarch; supposedly questionable for a fluted chamber like this.

The PTR I used to have ran best on Brown Bear, another steel cased ammo. Hard steel cases are not a problem; the problem is soft brass cases that tend to stick to the chamber more than intended, especially as it gets dirty. If I still had a PTR I would probably be feeding it Bear ammo exclusively. (Mine did run fine on Federal and Magtech brass cased ammo as well, FWIW.)

wally
January 17, 2010, 11:23 AM
I would suggest that the standard AR10 mags are better, now that there are $19 .308 Pmags, $20 CP stainless mags

There are no "standard AR10" mags. There are two styles, seemingly modified M14 mags, but they are not interchangeable. There is the original Armalite/Knight's type and the DPMS type. During the ban jigs were sold to modify M14 mags, results were spotty as good M14 mags weren't easy to find then either.

I can't verify it, but one of the gun show magazine dealers I trust (sounds like and oxymoron in the making :) ) says the PMag will be DPMS style. He didn't know if Armalite style would follow or not.

C-Products mags have been hit and miss for me, I've been able to fix most all of them, but can't recommend them as you shouldn't need to be filing feed lips (for bolt clearance) or replacing springs on new mags.

--wally.

Z-Michigan
January 17, 2010, 01:24 PM
There are no "standard AR10" mags. There are two styles, seemingly modified M14 mags, but they are not interchangeable. There is the original Armalite/Knight's type and the DPMS type. During the ban jigs were sold to modify M14 mags, results were spotty as good M14 mags weren't easy to find then either.

Well actually there is the original Armalite type (1950's AR-10) which is shared with Knight's Armament, DPMS, POF, and possibly others, and then there is the Armalite company of Illinois (fka Eagle Arms) type used in the modern "AR-10" and not used by anyone else.

In my view the first type referred to is THE standard AR-10 magazine, since it is the same type used by the original AR-10, although I realize that gets confusing since the "AR-10" made today by Armalite/Eagle Arms doesn't use that mag style. This is a matter of viewpoint, I guess.

I can't verify it, but one of the gun show magazine dealers I trust (sounds like and oxymoron in the making ) says the PMag will be DPMS style. He didn't know if Armalite style would follow or not.

C-Products mags have been hit and miss for me, I've been able to fix most all of them, but can't recommend them as you shouldn't need to be filing feed lips (for bolt clearance) or replacing springs on new mags.


I have sitting next to me two of the .308 Pmags. They are for the Knights/DPMS/original AR-10 type magwell. So far so good. I am not aware of whether Magpul plans a version for the Armalite (fka Eagle Arms) type magwell, which is a modified M14 mag design.

While I have had bad luck with C Products in their aluminum 5.56 mags, their stainless steel .308 mags so far are working well, and in fact seem to be better than the DPMS mags. YMMV

Retro
January 18, 2010, 01:10 PM
DPMS mags are horrible... period. My rifle won't fire 3 rounds without having a FTF or have severely bent my round that it flies off 7 MOA to the right. I switched to Cmag mags, and problem solved. Magpul now has a version for DPMS, not AR-10.

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