[bountyhunter]

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/special_packages/iraq/7205208.htm

A sargeant who works as an interrogator and saw an Iraqi cut in half by arms fire started suffering PTSD symptoms on duty. He sought counseling and was then charged with cowardice. Now those charges have been thrown out and now he is being charged with dereliction of duty.

This is disgraceful. After the recent incidents of the soldiers who came back from combat and killed their wives when they flipped out, the Army has been encouraging them to seek counseling if they are "having problems"... just be ready to get court martialed if you do.

This crap makes me sick.


Soldier's cowardice charge dismissed
By Robert Weller
Associated Press

FORT CARSON, Colo. - The Army dismissed a cowardice charge and filed a lesser count against an Army interrogator who sought counseling after he saw the body of an Iraqi man cut in half by U.S. fire.

Staff Sgt. Georg-Andreas Pogany was charged with dereliction of duty, according to a statement released Thursday by Fort Carson officials. A military court hearing set today for Pogany was canceled.

The new charge was filed by the company commander after military judges dismissed the cowardice charge, officials said. ``He believes that this charge is most appropriate to address the alleged misconduct based upon the evidence that is currently available,'' an Army statement said.

Army officials did not immediately return phone calls for comment. Neither did Pogany or his attorney.

Attorney Frank Spinner, a retired Air Force colonel who handles military cases, said dereliction of duty is a minor offense that, if disposed of without a court-martial, usually is penalized by loss of pay or reduction in rank.

After seeing the mangled corpse, Pogany says he began shaking and vomiting and feared for his life. Soon, Pogany says, he had trouble sleeping and started suffering what he thought were panic attacks.

Six weeks later, Pogany, 32, was charged with cowardice, a count that he said was filed after he sought counseling.

``What is tragic about this is the message being sent to other soldiers,'' Pogany said recently. ``It's not about me.''

[Sergeant Bob]

I didn't notice in the story what he was charged for. What did he do to warrant cowardice/dereliction of duty charges? I wouldn't think he would be charged solely for seeking counseling. There must be more to the story than that.

[Carlos]

:fire: :banghead:

My only hope is the jerk who charged this guy meets an equal or more horrible fate. It all works out according to your deeds is my simple, fundamental belief.

It's a total disgrace, and I'm ashamed of our miltitary for the things it is doing to its people right now and has been going on since the first gulf war; and before!!!

I think it's time to change the higher leadership of the military forces. An overhaul is definitely in order.

[Pilgrim]

The Soviet Army and the NKVD would have been much more compassionate.

Pilgrim

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

If acting human is cowardice, then we are in trouble.

An interrogator is in MI (that oxymoron). Training in MI is not like a line unit. Can't stand the heat.....

There must be more to the story.

[NukemJim]

Deleted by NukemJim. I was in error.

NukemJim

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Well, then, he should have reached a little deeper in the intestinal fortitude department. Buck up, laddy.

[Sergeant Bob]

During my career, I saw alot of people get pretty harsh disciplinary action or get tossed out for relatively minor infractions. But, they usually had alot of other infractions (often with an Article 15 or so mixed in) leading up to the final one. I wonder if that's not the case here?
I searched and couldn't find anything about AWOL or desertion, but I did find an article where he said he thought the Army was trying to get him to quit? I didn't know you could quit the Army.:confused:

[c_yeager]

How can an article with so little critical information even claim to be "news"?

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Look at the source, the socialist press. Never met a victim they did not bleed for. Do not confuse me with facts, just read my innuendo

[Leatherneck]

Some of our members seem pretty willing to take sides based solely on a brief article from a suspect medium. Assumptions, anyone? :rolleyes:

TC
TFL Survivor

[bountyhunter]

Look at the source, the socialist press.

The San Jose Mercury News is a socialist newspaper?

I realize it's become stylish to slap any news agency with that label if they print any story that doesn't shout hoo-rah for the present administration, but isn't that going all the way to the ridiculous?

Are there any newspapers that are not considered "socialist" just so we could clear this up?

BTW, the original source of the story was the AP (Associated Press). Is that entire group also to be classified on as bin-laden lovers?:confused:

[bountyhunter]

There is. IIRC he was due to be discharged soon and went AWOL/Deserted in ConUS. Do not recall all details.

If that was true, why didn't they charge him with desertion? That's a hell of a lot stiffer than just dereliction of duty. You get hard time for desertion.

[bountyhunter]

NO DESERTION, it happened as stated above.

http://usatoday.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&expire=&urlID=8189871&fb=Y&partnerID=1660


"After seeing the mangled corpse, Pogany says he began shaking and vomiting and feared for his life. Soon, Pogany says, he had trouble sleeping and started suffering what he thought were panic attacks.

Six weeks later, Pogany, 32, was charged with cowardice, a count that he said was filed after he sought counseling. Pogany denies that he acted in a cowardly way.

"What is tragic about this is the message being sent to other soldiers," Pogany said recently. "It's not about me."

Cowardice violations can be punished by death. Military code does not include a minimum sentence.

Army officials have declined to discuss the case.

Cowardice charges are rare. The last such conviction in the Army occurred during the Vietnam War. Charges were filed against a married couple during the Gulf War, but reduced to mistreatment of public property, said Eugene Fidell, president of the National Institute of Military Justice.

"You have to look pretty hard to find any of these cases," Fidell said. "We have a well-trained army that is a motivated one."

Pogany's case and others that are similar suggest Iraqi deployments are wearing thin, said military analyst Dan Goure of the Lexington Institute, a Washington, D.C.-based think tank.

"I think what you are seeing here is a consequence of the changed character of an all-volunteer force," Goure said. "The strain gets worse when you have longer deployments or multiple deployments or changing deployments."

Assigned to the 10th Special Forces Group, Pogany was attached to a team of Green Berets on Sept. 26 when he departed for Iraq. He declined to discuss his responsibilities, citing security issues.

Three days later, he was standing in a U.S. compound near Samarra north of Baghdad when soldiers brought in the Iraqi man's bloody body. The soldiers told Pogany the man was killed after he was seen shooting a rocket-propelled grenade.

Pogany said he was shaken, couldn't focus and kept vomiting. He told his commanders he believed he was suffering from panic attacks or a nervous breakdown and requested counseling.

At least one officer suggested he consider what such a request would do to his career, Pogany said. When he sought help, "I was told that I was wasting their time," Pogany said.

Pogany was examined by psychologist Capt. Marc Houck, who concluded he had signs consistent with normal combat stress reaction. Houck recommended Pogany be given a brief rest before returning to duty, but he was sent home to Fort Carson in mid-October and charged with "cowardly conduct as a result of fear."

Pogany said he asked three times to be given time to adjust and complete the recommended treatment while in Iraq.

Pogany said he can offer a credible defense. "If the Army decides to go down the route of character assassination, I have plenty to show I have been a good soldier for five years," he said.

His attorney, Richard Travis, speculated that Pogany may have received more help if he had been assigned to another unit.

"All he wanted was some help dealing with the physical reaction he was having, including vomiting, shaking and inability to sleep," Travis said.

[Sean Smith]

Assigned to the 10th Special Forces Group, Pogany was attached to a team of Green Berets on Sept. 26 when he departed for Iraq. He declined to discuss his responsibilities, citing security issues.

Hence the lack of sympathy. SF tends to not be real sympathetic to folks who turn out to be sissies the first time they see what war is like.

[bountyhunter]

Deleting post. I misunderstood that the refernece to "SF" meant special forces. I thought it meant san Francisco.

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Bountyhunter,

I was making a play on associated press/sociliast press. It was not my intention to slander the SJ Mercury.

Thank you for the additional news that actually contains FACTS for consideration. The green beanies tend to eat the weak.

[JimP]

Seeing that the source for this information is Frank Spinner....I wouldn't count on it. I wouldn't believe Frank Spinner if he told me his name was Frank Spinner. Worked around him; seen him work. he's a vulture who tries his cases in the press - remember Kelly Flynn?????

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Wow. It gets deeper and darker. I guess I will wait until I hear it from a RELIABLE source.

[Zedicus]

Far to many people tend to have a very poor take on problems that other people may suffer from.

They tend to have a "If I can't see it or haven't had it, It don't Exist!" attitude.

[c_yeager]

Pogany said he asked three times to be given time to adjust and complete the recommended treatment while in Iraq.

His attorney, Richard Travis, speculated that Pogany may have received more help if he had been assigned to another unit.

I take this to read that he was asking to be taken off his active duties as a Special Forces soldier due to the of SEEING a corpse brought into the compound. Frankly i expect a HECK of a lot more than that from the general army personell let alone the special forces. Heck i saw corpses on a daily basis when i worked hospital security some of them pretty mangled too. Yeah its stressful but, there are a LOT of people in iraq right now much more stressful things and they arent behaving like this.

Lets also examine the amusing discrepancy between the two articles.

Original article states:
A sargeant who works as an interrogator and saw an Iraqi cut in half by arms fire started suffering PTSD symptoms on duty.

implying that he witnessed this horrible event unfold.

Subsequent article states:
Three days later, he was standing in a U.S. compound near Samarra north of Baghdad when soldiers brought in the Iraqi man's bloody body. The soldiers told Pogany the man was killed after he was seen shooting a rocket-propelled grenade.

Clearly stating that the "victim" did not in fact witness the event. He simply saw the mangled corpse of an enemy soldier AFTER he was killed.

The guys who actually WITNESSED the event arent crying like a baby. Yet this guy who just saw the mess left over afterwards is? A more applicable use of the term "Cowardice" would be hard to find.

[agricola]

The guys who actually WITNESSED the event arent crying like a baby. Yet this guy who just saw the mess left over afterwards is? A more applicable use of the term "Cowardice" would be hard to find.

it isnt cowardice - the army should just show the man the door, some people react differently to death and its not something you can predict, you only find out how a person behaves when they are confronted with it.

[Leatherneck]

Well said, Ag. Sounds to me like there might have been a modicum of vengeance in play. I wonder what kind of soldier he had been before he discovered his aversion to gore. No, not THAT Gore--we all have an aversion to that Gore. :D

TC
TFL Survivor

[Ed Brunner]

It is a curious case for a number of reasons. It's hard to say what he expected when he joined the Army or what training and experience he had before his panic attack. It would be nice to have some more info.

[Waitone]

Was the perp a genuine SF type?

Or was he ASSIGNED to a SF unit? There is a difference.

Something about the story just rings funny to me.

Is it possible the unit CO had a woodie for this guy and is looking for any excuse. Silly me, it never happens in today's professional army.

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

I was MI and was attached to SF/Rangers from time to time. The training in MI is a joke. We had to train-up to their standards, brief orientation, then off and running. Usually volunteers only. Interesting stuff:D . They have all of the good toys. In this situation, I can see joe numbnuts being assigned due to the lack of arab linguists to go around. There were some real weenies.

But I am only painting a scenario. Not enough facts are known.