[AcceptableUserName]

an 8 shot remington is 20". Why, how? It doesn't screw in to the tube like the 500.


an 8 shot 500 persuader is 20", which is understandable for the same reason.


Also, does anyone know why the length/capacity layouts are different among the big 2? Is it in order to maintain an "identity", or at least avoid copyright issues?

[springfield30-06]

Magazine extensions are available for the 870. My 18" 870 has a magazine capacity of 6 + 1 when the mag. extension is attached (4 +1 without the extension).

[dfariswheel]

The difference is the way the magazines are designed.
The Mossberg system allows one extra round.
Due to the design, the Remington "almost" allows the extra round, but not quite.

Simply the way the guns were designed.

[Al LaVodka]

Not only will the standard Mossberg hold 5 rounds vs. Rem's 4, it will hold 5 rounds of 3" Magnum, +1. Remington, not so much. That's the way it is, and, give Mossbergs a leg-up in my opinion. My 20" 870 -- 7+1. Same as my 20" Ithaca 37. My extended 18 1/2" 590A1, 7+1 too. My 20" 590, 8+1.
Al

[Fred Fuller]

You know, once upon a time in about the late 1970's it seems I can recall worrying about how many rounds pump shotgun magazines could hold, too.

I sure am glad I got over that problem.

lpl

[ArmedBear]

It sure seems that Remington apologists have a personal put-down prepared for everyone who brings up any perceived criticism of a product from the Holy Green R...

(For the record, the only pump shotgun I own is an 870.)

[minutemen1776]

My Winchester 1300 Defender holds 7+1 and has just an 18-inch barrel. Go figure.

[ArmedBear]

I regret that I didn't buy a 1300 instead of my 870 Express.

They were relatively inexpensive, especially for how nice they were, and at least the ones I messed with felt good, both in terms of handling and operation.

That doesn't mean the Express doesn't work fine. I just didn't realize that the 1300 would go away.

[minutemen1776]

I really like my 1300 Defender. I snagged it on a used rack while on a business trip a little over a year ago. It appeared to have been fired enough times to get it dirty and was then traded in. It's a great gun, and just about the perfect dimensions for a fast-handling defense shotgun. I've added a Speedfeed stock and a TLR-1 light, which only make it better. :D

[19-3Ben]

1300 is a fantastic shotgun. Very very smooth.
When you rack the action it just slides with a smooth, graceful ease.... mmm.....

My dad was looking for an HD shotgun. I picked up a 1300 used for $180. Sold off the 28"bbl and bought a 20" smooth bore with RS. Disassembled and cleaned it up and put it back together. Gave it to my dad. He loves it.

That shotgun was a MAJOR PITA to put back together!!!! My 870 is so easy I could do it with my eyes closed. The 1300 took me way longer than any shotgun ought to.

[MAX100]

Mag tube capacity depends on the length of the spring, follower open or solid end and the length from the shell stop to the end of the mag tube or tube extension.

You have to measure from inside of the mag tube from the shell stop to the end of the mag or tube ext. An open end hollow follower and extra power spring needs about 2.5" of space to completely compress. Solid end followers take away about a 1/2" space in the tube, Wilson or Choate polymer followers would be an example. Measure your shells, standard 2.75" shells measure about 2.25" before fired. Some are a little longer and rolled crimped shells are a lot longer; Wolf brand would be an example of a rolled crimped shell.

All shotguns with a 18.5" barrel have the capability of 7+1 capacity with a full length mag tube or tube ext even with the muzzle.

An 870 needs a 20.5" barrel and full length mag tube to get 8+1.


With this info do the measurements and the math.


GC

[Fred Fuller]

Max, one other thing to consider is the length of the shotgun's receiver, and how much of the first round up in the magazine is actually inside the receiver itself.

Tubular magazines on shotguns have some advantages and some disadvantages. No way around that, it's a fact of life. The trick for us as shooters is to learn how to make the most of the advantages while not allowing ourselves to be too limited by the disadvantages (especially the perceptual ones).

Louis Awerbuck says, "No magazine is ever big enough."

Clint Smith says, "Did ya notice that this one, even with the long magazine tube, eventually went empty? So we still gotta practice loadin' 'em." ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhgwHQCJwWw )

Software, friends.... not hardware.

lpl

[Snarlingiron]

Louis Awerbuck says, "No magazine is ever big enough."

Clint Smith says, "Did ya notice that this one, even with the long magazine tube, eventually went empty? So we still gotta practice loadin' 'em."

My shotgun instructor, Bill Davison's constant refrain was "Feed the Puppy!...If you aren't shooting it, you should be feeding it."

It sure seems that Remington apologists have a personal put-down prepared for everyone who brings up any perceived criticism of a product from the Holy Green R...

An interesting perspective. I haven't ever found anything to apologize for. The 870 is different than the 1300s, or the Mossbergs or the Brownchester or whatever, but I'm not sure there is anything to apologize for.

[minutemen1776]

I don't think anyone is looking for an apology. An "apologist" is just someone who defends something. Here on THR, there seems to be an apologist for just about all things firearms-related, but actual apologies aren't so prevalent. :)

[ArmedBear]

"Apologist" doesn't mean "one who says he's sorry."

It means "a person who makes a defense in speech or writing of a belief, idea, etc.":)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apologist

It can have religious connotations, but it doesn't necessarily refer to religious apologetics.

[Fred Fuller]

I know I'm unusually dense, but I've looked over this thread several times and I can't seem to see anyone serving as a Remington apologist and offering personal put-downs. Anyone care to clue me in?

lpl

[Drthelongshot]

+1 I'm not seeing that either

[AcceptableUserName]

I think the variation is due to receiver length, I'm guessing. I would NOT feel undergunned with a standard length tube (I've expressed the desire to make a standard 18" m37 DSP my house gun), however, given ONE scattergun, I prefer 7+1, 18.5" config all day long. I find that to be prototypically the most bang for buck.



FWIW, if I'm going with an NFA AOW pistol-grip shotgun, the 870 is the CLEAR choice for that.

[Leadhead]

I know I'm unusually dense, but I've looked over this thread several times and I can't seem to see anyone serving as a Remington apologist and offering personal put-downs. Anyone care to clue me in?

lpl

I'm thinking it's post number 5 where the poster's reply to the original question of why Remington's don't hold as many shells is that it doesn't matter.

[MAX100]

an 8 shot remington is 20". Why, how? It doesn't screw in to the tube like the 500.
an 8 shot 500 persuader is 20", which is understandable for the same reason.

Also, does anyone know why the length/capacity layouts are different among the big 2? Is it in order to maintain an "identity", or at least avoid copyright issues?

The 20" barrel 870 has 7+1 capacity (8 shot) but it could have 8+1 if the mag tube was 1/2" longer. Also the press in ring on the factory tube extension, for the mag clamp screw, limits the capacity by stopping the follower from passing.

The standard Mossberg 500 20 bbl is limited to 7+1 because the mag tube ends under the barrel ring, which shortens the length of the mag tube.


20" mag tube, 2.5" needed for the spring follower to compress and 2.75" shells are 2.25" before fired. The math

2.25" x 7 shells + 2.5" for spring and follower = 18.25" plenty of room in a 20" mag tube for 7 shells.


GC

[AKElroy]

That shotgun was a MAJOR PITA to put back together!!!!

1300 hard to put together??? Unless you detailed the trigger group (it is one piece unless you striped it), the 1300 is one of the easiest to takedown & put back together. 15 seconds, or your making a mistake.

[oletymer]

In reality, if a round or two makes you happy you are probably dead by that time. Why, because you never learned to reload the gun.

[AKElroy]

It sure seems that Remington apologists have a personal put-down prepared for everyone who brings up any perceived criticism of a product from the Holy Green R...

Now, now. No need to slam big green. Once the throat is polished & the action sent to ATI or Wilson for a complete blueprint, they work pretty well. The fact that the 1300 needs none of this attention or aftermarket expense to run smoothly & function perfectly is useless information when one considers that its receiver is aluminum, and we ALL know how often these things shatter like cheap glass.

[MAX100]

In reality, if a round or two makes you happy you are probably dead by that time

Defense shotguns are used for more than taking down intruders. It's good to have the extra rounds when practicing and some use them for 3 gun matches. What's wrong with wanting the full capacity your gun will hold. To me a defense shotgun handles better, looks better and has less recoil with fully loaded extended mag tube.

GC

[oletymer]

Max, if it what works for you then go for it.

[minutemen1776]

In reality, if a round or two makes you happy you are probably dead by that time. Why, because you never learned to reload the gun.

Why assume that the user of an extended-mag shotgun lacks the skill to reload it? That's a non sequitur.

[AKElroy]

Who's Ron Sequitur? He from Jersy?

[dom1104]

hmm. my shotgun is 26 inches long with a 10 shot extension. I guess that makes me extreme, but I just love the way it handles myself.

870 wingmaster 26 inch skeet choked vent rib barrel, 10 shot blued extension, magpul acs stock and miad grip.

Love it. great for games. excellent for deer. <with a REALLY long plug lol>

[Snarlingiron]

It sure seems that Remington apologists have a personal put-down prepared for everyone who brings up any perceived criticism of a product from the Holy Green R...

An interesting perspective. I haven't ever found anything to apologize for. The 870 is different than the 1300s, or the Mossbergs or the Brownchester or whatever, but I'm not sure there is anything to apologize for.

Ok, I'll play the semantics game:

An interesting perspective. I haven't ever found anything to defend. The 870 is different than the 1300s, or the Mossbergs or the Brownchester or whatever, but I'm not sure there is anything to defend.

[Jack2427]

In VN the most issued shotgun was the Ithaca, it came with a 20" barrel and a 4 round mag, which could not be extended. The only other SGs in theater were the Winchester M12s and the M97s, all with stock mags holding 5 rounds in the mag. Somehow they did the job. Wise Platoon Sergeants picked a guy from each squad with lots of SG experience from back home, and trained them on how to combat reload after each shot if necessary, always not looking at the weapon, but scanning for more targets. Those shotguns were deadly at close jungle ranges, and for blowing BG out of the wire. Ithaca never came out with the extended mags till well after VN, and then only to compete with Remington and Mossberg who were doing it.
I still like the original ithaca, with an 18" barrel and rifle sights. Very light and much easier to move rapidly than a 20" gun with an 7-8 round mag.
In VN I carried an Ithaca in my aircraft with the barrel cut down as far as possible, its purpose was to get me away from the downed AC, where I could unlimber a longer range weapon. It worked as planned(just about the only thing in that dammed place that did).