[Bliggida]

Discharges (hit tha' deck!)

Since we're on the subject of what/how we refer to something as a gun community. How do you feel about using Accidental Discharge (AD) vs. a Negligent Discharge (ND)?

I understand that an AD will most likely always be used since I believe it was coined first. But, in terms of safety and firearm rules, (me, carrying a GLOCK) there is no such thing as an accidental discharge. Gun only goes off if you pull the trigger, making it and you negligent.

How do you define a firing an un-intended round off?

"There's no such thing as an accidental discharge"

[SheepNutz]

I'm with you, really no such thing as an accidental discharge.

[Cosmoline]

Negligence is a level of culpability based on an objective standard. A discharge could also be reckless or intentional. If the discharge was not intentional, reckless or negligent, then it was not culpable. This is what people usually mean when they say "accidental."

Such truly non-culpable discharges do indeed take place, but they're rare. For example, A is carrying a 1911 cocked and locked. A's house catches fire and A is engulfed in flames. A round cooks of from the 1911, injuring B who is rescuing A. In that scenario A did not even touch the weapon, and it would be difficult to build a case against him. He did nothing negligent with the pistol.

If the firearm goes off because of a genuine mechanical failure or defect it would also be possible to find the discharge non-culpable. The old Nambu in the hands of someone who doesn't know about its major drawback, for example.

[distra]

Accidental discharge is when the firearm itself fails, i.e. loaded gun dropped firing pin block doesn't work and bang! At least that's how I see, all the rest are negligent discharges caused by the operator pulling the trigger. Some would call re-holstering snags accidental, that's a gray area for me...

[John Parker]

Accidental is when it happens too fast...negligent is when you don't pull out.

[jigglyjames29]

I don't see how one can not use them interchangeably.
definition of accident: an unfortunate mishap.
A Negligent discharge is never fortunate. Well, I suppose if the gun went off unintentionally but hit a bad guy or something crazy like that.

[Bliggida]

I suppose I should have clarified, to be more direct. That was my fault.

I meant solely in regards to a person pulling the trigger.
as I agree a mechanical failure is not subject to you being negligent.
Nor, slam-banging it into a wall or other solid object.

Intentionally, knowingly, recklessly, or negligently. Mmmm, report words I live for.

[Harpo]

Accidental, meaning "not intentional".

"Negligent" is just a finger-wagging way for anti's to say "See, you shouldn't have guns!"

Really, what's next? Having a traffic negligent?

[Mad Chemist]

AD implies mechanical failure or true accident. If you touch off a round by mistake by actuating the trigger then it's a ND.

[BP44]

Im with Harpo on this, coining a stronger term that shows a "Hey Im an idiot" mindset is just hurtfull to our cause.

accidents happen just like S#$% happens.

should we change it to negligent happens:rolleyes: because I have seen the term in a gun rag.

On a further note I would be interested to find out who coined the term ND. I would guess"and it's just a guess" it came from an anti gun lawyer and spread to the rest of the sheep.

[Balog]

AD's are: mechanical failure of the weapon, falling on/dropping a non-drop safe weapon, and grabbing at a falling weapon. Basically, anything not resulting from a 4 rules violation.

ND's are anything else, all the many ways people are stupid and careless with their guns.

I'm not sure how to classify someone trying to put a SA auto into condition 2.

[Deus Machina]

+1

Accidental--failure, dropping a non drop-safe gun, a twig tucking into the trigger guard while you're hunting.

Negligent--not keeping your booger hook off the bang switch.

[Magic_Man]

I agree w/distra

[TexasBill]

"Negligent" implies that a deliberate action or inaction on the part of the operator caused the discharge (i.e., pulled the trigger, failed to engage a safety, didn't check to see if gun was loaded, etc.). Accidental implies the discharge occurred through mischance, a mechanical failure or other circumstance outside the control of the operator.

There's a huge difference in the two terms; negligence can be actionable in civil court or, in some cases, result in criminal charges. A true accident generally absolves the operator of criminal liability and civil liability other than perhaps actual damages caused by the discharge.

[moooose102]

pretty much in my book, if you flip the happy switch, it is negligent, if you did not, it is accidental.

[Full Metal Jacket]

why is when a gun discharges without intention, it's called negligent, but when there's a car wreck, it's called an accident? either way it's due to someone's careless mistake.

technically they're both negligent, but most people use the terms negligent and accident interchangeably. even though not correct, seems like only people on these forums are anal about it...

[mcdonl]

This is a story that is going on right now, in my town.

http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=308699&ac=PHnws

In a recorded interview with detectives, Lavallee-Davidson said Wilson asked him to engage in a type of Russian roulette, by holding the revolver to his head and pulling the trigger. Lavallee-Davidson claimed that he checked the gun, saw it was unloaded, then left the basement to use the bathroom.

When he returned, he picked up the gun.

"I picked it up and pointed it at his head and it clicked and he said something like, do it again. I did, and it went off," Lavallee-Davidson told detectives. "As soon as it went off, I was just totally freaked out."


In this particular story, the defendant is saying that he checked that the gun was unloaded, went to the bathroom, came back and pointed the gun at his friend. Pulled the trigger once, and his friend said do it again... he did... and bang... one less friend.

Now, no less then 3 of the 4 golden rules were broken here, and I bet that #4 was also not given much though. But my question is, if the S&W .44 Revolver was cycled twice by pulling the trigger, how could you NOT know there was a round in the chamber?

And, is this an accident, negligence or murder?

[Six]

I wish we could just use "Inadvertent discharge" to indicate a bang when we weren't expecting one so we wouldn't have to derail every AD/ND thread with a discussion on proper terminology.

[kanook]

The firearm went off by accident when the owner was negligent and dropped it.

[Double Naught Spy]

And, is this an accident, negligence or murder?

Assuming the story you conveyed was accurate, it was an accident, but not an accidental discharge. The trigger was being intentionally pulled. That makes it a negligent discharge. Was it murder? Not according to the story, but it was homicide

[sfc_mark]

Referring to it as "negligent" forces us to face the cause of the event and hopefully learn from it. Some (by no means all) can call it an accident and go about their merry way.

This isn't a blame game or finger wagging, and it's not exclusive to the shooting community. The Motorcycle Safety Foundation doesn't recognize "accidents." They're crashes and they have causes. If you force yourself to analyze the event and face the cause, no matter how uncomfortable, you can better learn from it.

The Army stopped referring to them as ADs and went to the term Negligent Discharge exclusively a few years ago. Even if no one is hurt, it's not really no harm - no foul.

[mcdonl]

Assuming the story you conveyed was accurate, it was an accident, but not an accidental discharge. The trigger was being intentionally pulled. That makes it a negligent discharge. Was it murder? Not according to the story, but it was homicide

It is as accurate as the paper that published the story. I just cannot believe that people still "play with guns"... clearly the drugs must have affected their judgment.

[Bubbles]

I've only seen one truly "accidental" discharge, and that was with a Remington rifle with a really awful trigger job; disengaging the safety caused the rifle to fire. Fortunately when it happened the owner was obeying the four rules so no one got hurt.

[7X57chilmau]

The vast majority of "unintended" discharges are the result of negligence. That doesn't imply that accidental discharges don't occur, but they are universally the result of a mechanical failure in the firearm. If the firearm doesn't require repair, the discharge was negligent. Damned near every time.

J

[Fremmer]

Unintentional will work just fine, and even satisfy the boston legal bunch.

Maybe not though, because remember, FAULT is more important than anything. Your fault, his fault, her fault, nothing other than FAULT matters.

[Full Metal Jacket]

i think this thread is dead in the water. nobody's going to come to a consensus and agree on anything...

[EddieNFL]

If the firearm goes off because of a genuine mechanical failure or defect it would also be possible to find the discharge non-culpable. The old Nambu in the hands of someone who doesn't know about its major drawback, for example.

Fine line. How many defects exist because of human failure/neglect?

IMO, ADs are uncommon.

True example: Shooter improperly holsters Glock, gun falls to the ground, discharges and the projectile strikes him in the abdomen. Two mistakes: did not holster properly and had modified the gun bypassing the safety features.

The cook off scenario would certainly be an AD. A part failure that could not be foreseen with reasonable inspection would be an AD.

[EddieNFL]

I've only seen one truly "accidental" discharge, and that was with a Remington rifle with a really awful trigger job; disengaging the safety caused the rifle to fire.

Negligent, IMO; on the part of the gunsmith.

[Werewolf]

Accidental implies that there was no way to prevent the occurence.

Negligence implies the opposite.

IMO - a true accidental discharge is very, very rare. Most unintentional discharges of a weapon could be prevented by proper maintenance and proper handling procedures.

[Balog]

The "car accident" analogy is not accurate. There are a great number of forces beyond your control that can lead to accidents: other drivers, atmospheric conditions, other drivers, mechanical failures, other drivers, road debris, other drivers etc.

With guns, you have four childishly simple rules to observe, and (aside from self defense situations) no outside forces acting against you. There simply is no comparison.

[ReadyontheRight]

I also agree with Negligent. You are stepping up to a higher standard when you pick up a firearm.

[The Bushmaster]

"Cause and effect" gentlemen. It's just that simple. You "caused" it and the "effect" was a bullet exiting the muzzle unwanted...No such thing as an "accident" (only GOD can cause an accident). Everything else is caused by some sort of negligence on the part of the operator.

[hammerklavier]

If it was an accident then it's an AD (those are rare), otherwise it was a ND.

[Arkansas Paul]

I use negligent when it's the fault of the handler. I have had one negligent discharge in my life when I was a teenager. Fortunately no one was hurt and I learned from the mistake. I'm a lucky one. Accidental discharges are when the equipment fails. Just my .02

[Flintknapper]

Both terms are correct (depending upon circumstance).

They should not be used interchangably though....as there are real legal reasons not to.

Although valid "accidents" can and do happen, I believe the vast majority of unintentional discharges...stem from one form of negligence or another.

Unfortunately, much of our society has moved toward a position of non-accountability. Many folks equate/define an "accident" with anything that is "unintentional".

Good gun handling practices, being intimately familiar with your weapon and NEVER being "lax"...will prevent nearly all mishaps.

But, there always exists "STUPID", and there is no cure for that. ;)

Flint.

[Fremmer]

LOL. If you possess a firearm that is mechanically defective and accidently discharges, then you are negligent, correct? Because you have a duty to make sure that your firearm is in good mechanical condition. That includes the duty to inspect the parts and make sure they are not defective. Failing to properly inspect the parts and discover the mechanical defect is a negligent act on your part. :D

[Balog]

Frem: obeying the four rules is a reasonable standard. Being a competent gunsmith able to diagnose parts that might fail in the near future is not.

[EddieNFL]

Owner's responsibility to have a gunsmith check it.

[ny32182]

The definition of accident:

–noun 1. an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss; casualty; mishap: automobile accidents.

The definition of "accident" is not directly contingent upon cause. Negligence is the cause of the vast majority of unintentional discharges; it does not have a bearing on the definition of an accident. An accidental discharge caused by mechanical failure which the shooter could not be reasonably expected to control, or negligence: Both are accidents, with different causes.

[kludge]

I prefer "unintentional".

"Accidents" can happen and can be either "unintentional" or "negligent" depending on the circumstances.

"Reckless" and "willful" are other subects.

[possum]

the only time that i believe that there is a such thing that can be classified as accidental, is when there is a problem with the gun/ firearm and the firing was not of the fault of the shooter. i have seen this in the military. on a m240 and a m2 .50 cal. defective part/ issue with the gun and it goes off, it went off by accident and wasn't due to negligence by the shooter/ operator, then that in my mind is accidental.

similarly if someone has a slam fire, or they pull the trigger once on a semi auto firearm and it fires more than once for example they didn't mean for the gun to fire, the gun didn't slam fire due to negligence, but it did so by mechanical faliure which was an accident, and i would classify that as a "accidental discharge."

in my view, negligence is when the gun went off when it was not meant too and it is the fault of the owner/ shooter/ operator.

accidental is when it couldn't be avoided, it was due to the gun/ mechanical faliure.

[ny32182]

"Accidents" can happen and can be either "unintentional" or "negligent" depending on the circumstances.

Accidents can be both unintentional and caused by negligence. The vast majority of accidents, firearms related or otherwise, would in fact fall into that exact category: unintentional (a required precondition to meet the definition of "accident") *and* caused by negligence.

Words mean things folks; we don't get to arbitrarily assign meanings based on our personal fancies. No offense to anyone in particular, but there are a lot of people in this thread who need to peruse the dictionary for what these words actually mean.

[possum]

have i ever negligently discharged a firearm or weapon of any kind? no

have i ever accidentally fired a weapon? technically i guess you could say i did, my m242 bushmaster chain gun at a brad gunnery range, the gun was on sinlge shot, i pulled the trigger, and the gun fired 3 rds.

[Gatorbait]

I saw only one comment that used the term "cookoff." It's used often and in awe by those who operate really big guns that consume powder by the bagful. It can hapen as well with small arms but not as frequently (except that there are many more of them). Let's go to the deck of a carrier beset by a kamikaze attack. We're manning a dual 20mm Oerlikon, dropping in clip after clip as rapidly as we can. We hear a command through our headsets, "Alright, lads. Stop shooting." the chamber and barrel are approximately 12 trillion degrees F. In a couple of seconds BANGO! There goes the last round.

[HoosierQ]

A distinction without a difference I think. Equally bad day regardless what you call it.

[QUICK_DRAW_McGRAW]

accidental = it falls off a table and goes off.

negligent = you are holding it.

[Balog]

Owner's responsibility to have a gunsmith check it.

And if the gunsmith makes a mistake? What if you get it checked and a part fails later? What if the part the gunsmith correctly installed is faulty?

[EddieNFL]

And if the gunsmith makes a mistake? What if you get it checked and a part fails later? What if the part the gunsmith correctly installed is faulty?
Still a negligent discharge...just a different party is responsible.

[Fremmer]

If the Smith makes a mistake, you are still negligent; you negligently possessed a firearm with mechanical problems. In fact, both you and the Smith are negligent. :D Remember, it is all about fault.

[Bliggida]

I like the ideas so far. All the opinions are good. I do have something I think is worth mentioning.
Picking what word to use that ACCURATELY describes what happens - no matter how 'horrible' the word is, to me, says you understand the danger and are taking the responsibility. To pick a word that protects us from the anti-gun nazi's, and makes it sound nice and fluffy, to me is sticking your head in the sand like an ostrich, pretending nothing bad can happen, and leaving no one to be responsible for their actions. We can't afford that.

That sounds to me, awfully close to an attempt at being politically correct. That is something, none of us are.

I understand the argument of relating it to a traffic accident. Could be semantics, although I will mention that in Texas, the wording has changed and there are no more traffic accidents. They have been referred to as 'crashes' since about 2005/2006. To denote someone, or something had caused the crash. Some states have changed theres to 'collision' in similar format.

It reminds me about a conversation I had many years ago. Referring to someone by their color, I said ... "so&so is black" and the other party was mortified as though I had used 'the evil "N" word'. I was corrected to use the term, "African-american". Being I knew the person of subject, I responded, he's not from Africa. He's never been to Africa, he's a U.S. citizen! Charlize Theron is African-American, and she's as white as I am! The person seemed to be stunned and understood at the same time.

Likewise, with guns (and really anything) calling it what it is, is nothing to be scared of. If we have to use a horrible ugly word to help further our cause by educating and holding responsible gun handlers, then so be it. Ultimately its for the good. Yes we're going to get some black eyes over a few idiots. But this late in the game, worrying about being PC on a topic that is already labeled 'extremist' is at best laughable.

[Shadow Man]

Accidental is when it happens too fast...negligent is when you don't pull out.

That made my day :D

I have to throw my hat into the "Accidental is a mechanical failure/Negligent is operator error" ring. Only ever seen one (1) AD...old L.C. Smith double barrel propped up, slid over for whatever reason and threw a load of 00 into the leg of a workbench. Nobody even in the room. Seen plenty of ND's though; generally an "oh s@#t!" moment. I've heard far, far more ND's then I've seen though...hear one go off in the clearing barrel, and without fail a 2ndLT will walk through the door all red-faced. Never fails :D

[BlisteringSilence]

Really, what's next? Having a traffic negligent?

why is when a gun discharges without intention, it's called negligent, but when there's a car wreck, it's called an accident? either way it's due to someone's careless mistake.

I understand the argument of relating it to a traffic accident. Could be semantics, although I will mention that in Texas, the wording has changed and there are no more traffic accidents. They have been referred to as 'crashes' since about 2005/2006. To denote someone, or something had caused the crash. Some states have changed theres to 'collision' in similar format.

In the eyes of the law, there is no such thing as a traffic accident. The term accident is a finding of fact, and as such can only be done by judge or a jury.

When a car hits something, it is a TC, or traffic collision. Or, if you're in the northeast, an MVC, or motor vehicle collision.

Now, it is possible for a TC to be an accident... brake failure approaching an intersection would be an example.

But for the purposes of semantics (which is what this discussion is all about), when a car goes bump into something, it is a collision.

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

negligent is like the dea agent, playing with his gun and pulled the trigger

accidental is if the gun fails and goes off, like you chamber a round and it goes off without you pulling the trigger, dropping it and it goes off, mainly if the gun fails.

[BP44]

If you chamber a round or drop the gun and it goes off it's your own darn fault!!! its your gun,ammo, and your hand its in. your responsible for the safe upkeep of all of your firearms and ammo otherwise your negligent.:cuss:

so I guess there really have been No AD's listed in this thread yet, just a bunch of negligent discharges that posters are liable for.


I vote UD or AD

[General Geoff]

Negligent is when the trigger is pulled but the operator did not mean to discharge the firearm.

Accidental is when the firearm discharges due to mechanical failure, at a time when the user does not intend for it to discharge (usually the trigger must not be touched for this term to apply, in my opinion).

If you chamber a round or drop the gun and it goes off it's your own darn fault!!! its your gun,ammo, and your hand its in. your responsible for the safe upkeep of all of your firearms and ammo otherwise your negligent.

I will disagree to an extent here. All mechanical devices fail, guns included. One cannot foresee all failures before they happen, nor can all mechanical failures be prevented. The key here is that during operations which would most likely result in mechanical failures (such as loading, unloading, cycling the action, or handling the weapon in general), the four rules MUST be observed, so that an accidental discharge caused by a mechanical failure does not result in injury or death.

[oasis618]

awesome.

[oasis618]

Accidental is when it happens too fast...negligent is when you don't pull out.
awesome.

[Full Metal Jacket]

negligent discharge=sorry 'bout that mam :what:

[Kitchen_Duty]

Accidental Discharge for me would imply mechanical failure.

Negligent discharge would imply human failure.

[Six]

I think people are confusing negligent with accountable .

[Zach S]

AD's are: mechanical failure of the weapon, falling on/dropping a non-drop safe weapon, and grabbing at a falling weapon. Basically, anything not resulting from a 4 rules violation.Emphasis mine.

I disagree. I knocked my Kimber off the shelf getting something out of the closet. That was an accident.

I caught it. That was negligence.

Thankfully the only things destroyed were my ego, and a rockford fosgate subwoofer. The box is repairable, however I wont do it. I keep it as a reminder.

IMO, an AD is when the gun fires without someone pulling the trigger.

[EddieNFL]

I think people are confusing negligent with accountable .
Accountable Discharge. Gonna be lots of confusion with two "ADs."

DISCLAIMER: Above post is for humor only.

[Six]

No. No "accountable discharge". You are accountable for every bullet that leaves your gun, intentionally or not.

But, it doesn't mean every inadvertent discharge is a negligent one.

If lightning from a clear sky strikes the gun in your hand and sets a round off, you are accountable - you still own that bullet, but are you really negligent?

Some people want to stretch the definition of negligent into the realm of absurdity, without any thought to due diligence or reasonable precautions.

I wonder if any of them are lawyers?

[BurgDog]

Legally:

Negligent discharge - owner is legally responsible and pays damages in civil lawsuit. Undesirable target for lawsuit as usually not worth it to sue as owner doesn't have a lot of money.

Accidental discharge - gun manufacture is legally responsible and pays the damages in civil lawsuit. Desirable target of lawsuit as gun manufacturer has lots of money.

[BurgDog]

Politically:

Negligent discharge - gun owners are idiots and should not have guns.

Accidental discharge - guns are dangerous as they can up and go off on their own. Need to limit the number of guns.

[Millwright]

AD - What happens to teen-age boys and old folk of both sexes......

ND - What happens when the "stupid" curve intersects the probability curve.....

Firearms - even old ones - are among the safest machines man has ever devised when properly handled in accordance with their design limitations......Just as old cowboys kept the hammer down on the chamber stuffed with 'buryin money' of their six shooters, every one handling a firearm assumes an obligation to be familair with its operational pecularities. >MW

[EddieNFL]

No. No "accountable discharge". You are accountable for every bullet that leaves your gun, intentionally or not.

But, it doesn't mean every inadvertent discharge is a negligent one.

If lightning from a clear sky strikes the gun in your hand and sets a round off, you are accountable - you still own that bullet, but are you really negligent?

Some people want to stretch the definition of negligent into the realm of absurdity, without any thought to due diligence or reasonable precautions.

I wonder if any of them are lawyers?


Sorry. I edited my post to include a humor disclaimer.

[The Bushmaster]

Nope...The bill in the empty chamber is a myth. Old cowboys loaded all six chambers in their Colts SAAs (if they could afford one). The hammer was placed between loaded chambers. The case heads preventing the cylinder from turning.

[Eric F]

Was the round intended on not? If not it was an acident! Neglignce can happen if the round was intended or not. So to me all unintentional rounds are either accidental, or accidentally negligent.

I hate the thought of all unintentional rounds are negligent. Accidents can and do happen. Afterall people do not have an auto negligence do they? No its an auto accident.

[EddieNFL]

IMO, most auto "accidents" are caused by driver negligence. Short of a act of God or sabotage, I'm hard pressed to come up a scenario that would not be driver, maintainer or manufacturer fault. Same for "unintentionally" fired shots.

[woerm]

accidental is hardware failure, something breaks then bang

negligent is operator error.

woerm

[Full Metal Jacket]

only about a million different opinions on this thread with no resolution of the issue whatsoever. it cries out for a mod lock.

[EddieNFL]

Well, FMJ, if the mods lock threads because of differing opinions, there ain't gonna be much to talk about.

[SaxonPig]

I made this #26. I realize that most forum members disagree with me but I truly believe they are wrong and are playing with fire by routinely saying ND.

AD vs ND.

26. An accident is an unintentional event. When a gun is discharged inadvertently it is an accidental discharge. The use of the term negligent discharge has become popular but it is a bad idea. Yes, the vast majority of ADs involve negligence on the part of the operator but negligence is a legal term that assigns responsibility. Describing your unintentional discharge as negligent is admitting guilt to any cop or lawyer who happens to be listening. Until I am certain that I am not being charged with a crime or sued in civil court I prefer to not admit guilt.

[KBintheSLC]

"Negligent" all the way. An "accident" is when my infant daughter fills her diaper with poop. It really bothers me when people call negligence an accident... especially when driving cars. "Sorry I killed your wife... it was an accident"... and forget about the fact that they may have been speeding/distracted/intoxicated/careless/self-absorbed/impatient/etc...

They think that because they did not intend to harm someone, that it somehow qualifies as an accident. Wrong. They are aware of the results of their choices, and they chose to do it anyway.

Same goes for a negligent discharge. You know very well what happens when you pull the trigger... the gun fires. You are aware of the reaction to your action. An "accident" would be if a monkey pulled the trigger, not knowing the potential results ahead of time... or a small child for that matter.

Unless it is a rare gun malfunction causing your discharge, it is no accident.

...

[NinjaFeint]

Politically:

Negligent discharge - gun owners are idiots and should not have guns.

Accidental discharge - guns are dangerous as they can up and go off on their own. Need to limit the number of guns.
Yeah thats politics. Still, if the gun goes off when you don't want it and you pulled the trigger, it's negligent. We can't ignore our own responsibility.

[EddieNFL]

An accident is an unintentional event. When a gun is discharged inadvertently it is an accidental discharge.

I'm sure almost everyone here has experienced an "unintentional" discharge. Most, if not all were a result of a negligent act: "thought it was unloaded," being the most common mistake.

Why would you tell a cop you were negilgent, regardless of what happened?

[wrs840]

"...Almost Everything that's called an 'accident' is a predictable event that is the direct result of somebody screwing up..." - Robert D. Raiford

One of the most memorable things he ever said, IMO. My kids can recite it on my cue, and at 8 and 12, they handle guns safely.

Les

[mustang_steve]

NDs all around. All firearms should be function checked. The question is who's negligent? That's the owner of the firearm if it's function related.

The rest of ADs are NDs on you, as it would be a handling issue. Drop-bangs are definately negligent, even if based on a design flaw as one shouldn't carry a pistol with such a design flaw.

[Full Metal Jacket]

Well, FMJ, if the mods lock threads because of differing opinions, there ain't gonna be much to talk about.

i agree with that statement.

however, this thread is simply beating a dead horse, and not coming to any sort of consensus or conclusion on the issue. there's no point in such a thread.

[EddieNFL]

i agree with that statement.

however, this thread is simply beating a dead horse, and not coming to any sort of consensus or conclusion on the issue. there's no point in such a thread.

I agree with the dead horse beating, but, think about it, how many threads fall into the never settled category?

...and we're helping keep it alive. :evil:

[Eric F]

ac·ci·dent (ks-dnt, -dnt) KEY

NOUN:


1 An unexpected and undesirable event, especially one resulting in damage or harm: car accidents on icy roads.
2 An unforeseen incident: A series of happy accidents led to his promotion.
3 An instance of involuntary urination or defecation in one's clothing.
4 Lack of intention; chance: ran into an old friend by accident.
5 Logic A circumstance or attribute that is not essential to the nature of something.

neg·li·gence (ngl-jns) KEY

NOUN:

1 The state or quality of being negligent.
2 A negligent act or a failure to act.
3 Law Failure to exercise the degree of care considered reasonable under the circumstances, resulting in an unintended injury to another party.



Based on these yahoo searches, ad/ nd arguement, if you broke a law of locality state or federal it is a nd other wise it is an ad.

Example: you had a gun in your pocket and reached for it and it went off hitting another person it would be a nd

Example: your gun was on the bench at the range and you picked it up placing your finger on the trigger before the target was in alignment with the gun and it went bang sending the bullet into the gorund. this would be an ad!

Enough said!

[RobMoore]

In my view you have unintentional discharges with or without negligence. Some may refer to an AD as the second type. They do exist.

If the gun doesn't do its job, and fires when I don't want it to, and I did nothing wrong (like not cleaning it or something), it is not an ND.

We all say "mechanical devices can and will fail" when it comes to excusing the malfunctions in our weapons, such as failures to feed. Why shouldn't the same mentality be applied to the failure of it not to fire when the trigger hasn't been pressed?

[EddieNFL]

Example: you had a gun in your pocket and reached for it and it went off hitting another person it would be a nd

Example: your gun was on the bench at the range and you picked it up placing your finger on the trigger before the target was in alignment with the gun and it went bang sending the bullet into the gorund. this would be an ad!

Other than injury, there is no difference between the two examples. The shooter negligently violated the 4th Law of Gun Safety - Keep Your Finger Off The Trigger Until Your Sights Are On The Target!

IMO, both are NDs.

[MacTech]

My opinion is pretty simple;

Accidental; discharge due to mechanical failure of the firearm because of defective hardware
Negligent; booger hook pulling the bang switch when it wasn't intended, Four Rules violation

I'd class 99.999% of unintentional discharges as negligent

[lindy]

There are four types of Homicide:
Felonious
Accidental
Justifiable
and Praiseworthy

-Ambrose Bierce-

Lindy

[Full Metal Jacket]

I agree with the dead horse beating, but, think about it, how many threads fall into the never settled category?

...and we're helping keep it alive.


OMG, you're right! :eek:

[GRIZ22]

To me accidental denotes a mechanical failure of the firearm causing it to discharge. Any type of human error makes it unintentional.

[Eric F]

The shooter negligently violated the 4th Law of Gun Safety - Keep Your Finger Off The Trigger Until Your Sights Are On The Target!


Sorry the "laws of gun safety" do not apply here in this case. Please Quote any local state or federal law that says the sights must be on a target. These are only safety guide lines. Mere suggestions. not laws.

The diffrence in my quote is the gun in the pocket is negligent because Law Failure to exercise the degree of care considered reasonable under the circumstances, resulting in an unintended injury to another party.
but it could be an accident also based on An unexpected and undesirable event, especially one resulting in damage or harm

[Full Metal Jacket]

unsubscribed.

[Officers'Wife]

Although the Burns Code may state otherwise, if the discharge was in any way shape or form caused by human intervention it is negligence on the part of the human. And yes, this includes being 'accidentally' dropped. Around our house there was one tried and true rule- it's not the machine it's the operator.

[wishin]

You may argue that your gun went off accidently (not intentional), but more often then not, you were negligent!

[MarkDozier]

Harpo is on thr right track, Most motor vehicle incidents are the resukt of negilgence, There are very few "accidents."

[SaxonPig]

EddieNFL-

Let's say something awful happens involving shooting something I didn't intend to shoot.

Cops come, start asking what happened.

I am in the habit of calling these events "negligent discharges" so I tell the cop "I had a negligent discharge."

Cop writes in report "subject admitted he was negligent."

Prosecutor reads police report and sees where I admitted to a criminal act. Now I am facing trial on felony charges.

Lawyer hired to investigate the incident reads police report in which I admitted being negligent and now files massive lawsuit knowing he can tell the jury I admitted being negligent, thus making me totally liable for all damages.

No thank you.

Yes, absolutely, most ADS are the result of some negligence. But using that word is a dangerous thing as it means you assume full legal responsibility with no hope of explaining what really happened.

[Erik]

My take on it:

Accidental discharges are mechanically caused.
Negligent discharges are operator caused.

[Zach S]

Lawyer hired to investigate the incident reads police report in which I admitted being negligent and now files massive lawsuit knowing he can tell the jury I admitted being negligent, thus making me totally liable for all damages.

So, if you don't mean to do it, you aren't accountable?

Eh, just blame the gun. Works for the left.

[EddieNFL]

Please Quote any local state or federal law that says the sights must be on a target.

There is no law requiring you to keep you finger off the trigger, either.

If a bullet unintentionally leaves the bore, 99.99 percent of the time, someone was negligent.

[Blackbeard]

It's a matter of one being a subset of the other. All negligent discharges are accidents, but not all accidents are the result of negligence.

Example 1: You're cleaning your loaded gun with your finger on the trigger and shoot yourself through the leg. This is an accident as a result of negligence. AD and ND both apply.

Example 2: You're at the range and your semi-auto slam-fires when you close the action. This is an accident caused by mechanical failure. AD applies, but ND does not.

[guitarman531]

Just responding to the OP:

IMHO:
accidental means the gun goes off without any external input (or when doing something that wasn't intended to fire the gun--ie. some sort of failure with the gun itself)
Negligent means some kind of external source [trigger finger, bunched up clothing, stuff in your gym bag (actually happened to a kid--they called it "accidental" and blamed his Glock for being unsafe....maybe if he didn't keep a Glock in condition 1 bouncing around in a gym bag......)]

[d2wing]

Depends on how much you pay your lawyer.

[heavyshooter]

Some discharges are accidental. Some (MOST!!!) discharges are negligent.

Unlike most High Roaders, I have been in the presence of a poorly designed or malfunctioning firearm. It has resulted in an AD (it wasn't me of course :)). 9 out of 10 discharges are ND's because 9 out of 10 guns require the pulling of the trigger. But there is still the occasional AD. This is why there is more than one rule of gun safety.

For example, if my gun has a drop safety on it and it fires after I drop it, that is and AD. If I inadvertently pull the trigger a second time because of a light trigger pull combined with heavy recoil, that is an ND.

Heavy

[Brass Rain]

Well, if a person is holstering their handgun and a stray loop of thread from a shirt or something manages to loop inside the trigger, puling it... well that's an accident. I'd like to think any unintentional firing of the gun with one's finger on the trigger is negligence, and anything causing it to fire without pulling the trigger is accidental.

But I'm no expert of course.

And come to think of it, one hell of a thread and a real push would be required for my example to work, but I'll bet it's happened.

[Erik M]

accidental would be dropping a firearm causing a discharge, a slamfire, or something u did not intend to happen through a mechanical failure or human error.

Neglegent would be if an individual was 'playing' with a loaded gun and fired it because they assumed it wasnt loaded.

[Finney]

I had a bulleye gun (1911) that would fire when you released the slide if you did not hold the trigger back.
Would that be a accident or negligence?

[Blackbeard]

'Accident' does not discount negligence. Some accidents are caused by negligence, but they're still accidents. 'Accident' merely speaks to intent, not fault. If you get into a car crash with some driver who was doing her makeup and steering with her feet, would you say you got into a 'negligent'? No, it's still an accident, and one that was caused by her negligence.

[NinjaFeint]

EddieNFL-

Let's say something awful happens involving shooting something I didn't intend to shoot.

Cops come, start asking what happened.

I am in the habit of calling these events "negligent discharges" so I tell the cop "I had a negligent discharge."

Cop writes in report "subject admitted he was negligent."

Prosecutor reads police report and sees where I admitted to a criminal act. Now I am facing trial on felony charges.

Lawyer hired to investigate the incident reads police report in which I admitted being negligent and now files massive lawsuit knowing he can tell the jury I admitted being negligent, thus making me totally liable for all damages.

No thank you.

Yes, absolutely, most ADS are the result of some negligence. But using that word is a dangerous thing as it means you assume full legal responsibility with no hope of explaining what really happened.

So, if you don't mean to do it, you aren't accountable?

Eh, just blame the gun. Works for the left.
It all comes back to taking responsibility for what happens with your firearms. The cop will ask for a description of the incident and this is what will hold weight, not what you categorize it as but what they determine it is.

Tell the cop it was whatever you want but don't kid yourself that it wasn't negligent and don't kid yourself you saying it was an accident makes you not liable.

[NinjaFeint]

I had a bulleye gun (1911) that would fire when you released the slide if you did not hold the trigger back.
Would that be a accident or negligence?

If you know it does this and did not have it changed then failed to hold the trigger back, it would be negligent. If you hold the trigger back then there would be no discharge, so you would be negligent in not doing so.

I make it a rule with any newly acquired semi-auto to have the first time I drop the slide on a live round be with the gun pointed safely down range. I know you can check the functions of the gun other ways but I would rather err on the side of safety.

[Double Naught Spy]

If you shoot yourself and your wife while she is on the phone with the MIL, you can be darned sure to be reminded that it was negligent for the rest of your life...

Blotter: Single bullet wounds man and wife
10:29 AM CST on Thursday, January 14, 2010

By Donna Fielder / Staff Writer
Denton police officers responding to a report of a shooting in the 500 block of South Carroll Boulevard about 6:15 p.m. Saturday found a man and woman both injured by the same bullet.

The man explained that he planned to go shooting with some friends the next day and was oiling his 9mm pistol. He unloaded and then loaded it, he said. His wife was talking on her cellphone to her mother, who had just sent a package of presents to them.

The man said his wife wanted him to try on a sweater her mother had sent. He laid down the pistol and tried on the sweater.

By the time he had picked the gun back up, he had forgotten he reloaded it, he said. Believing it was unloaded, he pulled the trigger.

The bullet first hit his finger, which was over the barrel. Then it struck his wife in the buttocks.

Both were taken by ambulance to a hospital emergency room with injuries that were not life-threatening.

http://www.dentonrc.com/sharedcontent/dws/drc/localnews/stories/DRC_Blotter_0114.7883dfdb.html

[EddieNFL]

For example, if my gun has a drop safety on it and it fires after I drop it, that is and AD.

Either the gunsmith or manufacturer was negligent. The owner, as well, if he was aware of the problem.

[orionengnr]

I believe it has been laid out pretty clearly.

If the firearm malfunctioned, it was an accidental discharge.
If some dummy pressed the trigger when he shouldn't have, it was negligent.

I don't know why this is so difficult to understand.

Or perhaps I do...the inability/unwillingness of so many people to take responsibility for their own actions has become anethma in our society.

Too bad that several generations have been raised this way.

[EddieNFL]

If the firearm malfunctioned, it was an accidental discharge.

Guns rarely discharge by themselves. With very rare exceptions, a human is a fault; poor maintenance, home 'smithing, etc...