[Randy1911]

I recently bought 500 rounds of military 223 brass. I tried a RCBS Trim Mate with the crimp remover cutter. That didn't really work very well. So I splurged and bought a Dillon Super Swage 600. I am still having a 50-60% failure rate on being able to get the primer to seat. I have read the instructions several times (what little there is of it). The ones that do go in, go in as smooth as commerical brass. A lot of the ones that don't go in go about half way and then won't finish going in and I end up crushing the primer. The rest of them won't even start. Any ideas on what to look for to help me figure out what I am doing wrong?

[rcmodel]

Is all the brass the same headstamp?

If it's mixed brass, you will get mixed results.

Because the case head web thickness is different on different brands of brass.

You have to sort it and adjust the Swaging tools support rod for each group of brass to get full depth swaging.

rc

[bds]

Anyone experience variation of primer cup size depending on manufacturer?

[EddieNFL]

Anyone experience variation of primer cup size depending on manufacturer?
Sure. They're usually pretty close, but I have a batch of Fed 205 match that will not fit the PPs swaged for BR4s.

[Randy1911]

RC

This is all LC brass, the year does vary some (all 2000 something). It was fired in a machinegun tho. It has a large ejector mark on the face of the headstamp where the writing is, making some of it hard to read. The ejector mark is round, about 1/8" in diameter.

[Randy1911]

I went back and tried adjusting the rod again. I tried everywhere from not swaging at all, to swaginging so much that it would collapse the shoulder of the case. Still most of the primers won't seat. Anyone else got any ideas. My cases look nothing like the pricture in the instruction. The crimp ring is still there. That is what is causing me the most trouble. The primers are catching on it. :confused::confused::confused:?

[EddieNFL]

I don't understand how you're collapsing shoulders.

The ring will never disappear, unless you use a reamer. Please don't take offense, but are you using the correct primer punch (small)? The primer should start, even in pockets that aren't sufficiently swaged.

That's the problem with the internet; can's see squat.

[EddieNFL]

What primers are you using?

[dardascastbullets]

Hi Randy,

May I recommend the Wilson Primer Pocket Reamer. I used one for the better part of 25 years. It produced perfect pockets without failure 100%. The reamer cuts a very nice radius on the pocket mouth and finishes the remainder of the pocket perfectly. I used it on commercial brass as well as match brass. You would be amazed as to how many pockets are out of round as well as varying in depth.

I trust that this will help you.

[Randy1911]

EddieNFL

I don't understand how you're collapsing shoulders.

If I adjust the rod that the case sits on, in to much, it it will cause a slight buckle at the point that the shoulder start.

Please don't take offense, but are you using the correct primer punch (small)? The primer should start, even in pockets that aren't sufficiently swaged.

No offense taken. I am using the one that came in it out of the box. The instructions said it was setup for 223.

[What primers are you using? /QUOTE]

I have tried CCI #41 Military Small Rifle primers. I am currently using Winchester SR primers.

[QUOTE]The ring will never disappear, unless you use a reamer.

The picture in the instructions book shows a case with NO rimg of any kind. It says that is correctly swaged. The picture of the one that is not sufficently swaged shows a ring.

[EddieNFL]

The shoulder buckle still doesn't make sense. Unless your case support rod is different that mine, the case mouth should not touch anything. That's the only way I can see a shoulder buckling.

By primer punch, I meant for seating primers. If, somehow you have the large punch installed, the primers wouldn't align properly.

I've swaged thousands and thousands of LC cases and the ring is always visible. Perhaps the pix is of a non-crimped case. You don't happen to see three stake marks around the pocket, do you?

I doubt the primers are the problem. Wolfs typically run a little large, but they still seat after swaging.

I'm at a loss. Supposedly, if you over swage, the case support rod can bend. I've over swaged and made the pockets too loose, on occasion.

If you don't have an epiphany tonight, maybe we can hook up tomorrow on Skype. You can show me your's and I'll show you mine.

That sounded a little perverted, didn't it?

[Randy1911]

No, I have the correct punch in the press. The large one won't go in when I have small slider in.

I looked at the pix again, and there was defintly no ring on the corrtly swaged case and definetly a ring on the incorrect one. Dillons' instructions leavbe a lot to be desired. There was no instructions on how to adjust the machine. Just how to change the rod size.

If I could get my camera to take some good close-up shots I would post some pixs. But they all come out blurry.

Ah heck Eddie, we all now you're straight. LOL

I went back out to see if I could figure out was was buckling the shoulder, but nothing jumped out at me. The mouth of the case is 1/16" from the taper on the rod. I will keep trying.:banghead:

[shootinxd]

Hi Randy,
I have the same problem when using winchester primers in crimped brass.I now use wolf primers(in my ar) and have much better results,4-6 out of 100 will give me fits.I size/deprime trim and then REAM pockets with my forster trimer attachment.I hate wasting primers when they are soooo hard to get at times!

[Randy1911]

I did some experermenting last night. I found that if I swage the pockets and use the RCBS crimp cutter, most of them will seat without too much trouble. It means a lot of work beforehand, but it is hard to find commercial brass around here locally.

[EddieNFL]

Randy,

Have you measured the swage rod? The very tip of this piece:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a338/EddieF/SSSwager.jpg

Remember to wipe it off to remove any brass particles. Mine measured 0.1725".

I measured a CCI BR-4 primer at 0.1740. They will easily seat. A little too easy as my swager is set for the larger Wolf primers.

Still thinking about the buckled shoulders. The only way I can imagine it happening is if the case is pushed down onto the tapered part of the support rod.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a338/EddieF/SSRod.jpg

That's a long way.

Maybe your swage rod is out of spec. At this point, I can't think of anything else.

I took before and after pix of a swaged case, my phone pix aren't that great (left the digital camera in SC), but the ring is still there. I looked at a number of swaged cases and I did find a few that the ring was almost completely removed.

[Lee Roder]

I recently bought a Super Swage too and agree that Dillon's instructions aren't the best. But their phone support (800-223-4570) is great. I didn't encounter your problem, but after about 20 minutes back and forth, the tech guy managed to get me started OK. FWIW my decrimped pockets have no perceptible ring.

[EddieNFL]

FWIW my decrimped pockets have no perceptible ring.

Probably varies from lot to lot. I have about 20,000 45ACP cases I've been using since about '85. All have a visible crimp ring, but it's such a light crimp I've never had to swage the pockets. Maybe one on 500 is too tight.

Randy, forgot to mention, adjustment is performed using the case support rod locknut, but I think you already figured that out.

[counterclockwise]

The swagers use a back up rod. The web thickness and/or primer cup depth of the particular mil casing effects the amount of swaging that occurs. Web thickness varies from lot-to-lot, mfg. to mfg.

Try to sort the mil. brass to constant web thickness before swaging and things will go much better.

Sorting to constant web thickness is easy to do.
1. Find a rod, tube, or dowel (even extra swager back up rod) that is small enough to fit through the neck and longer than a typical case.
2. Make sure the rod or dowel has a concave end to clear any flash hole irregularities.
3. decap and size the case.
4. take a digital caliper and set it to dowel length, then hit "zero".
5. insert the dowel into the case(s) and measure the "web thickness" ....distance from end of dowel to face of case head.
{I just did a .308 case in less time it takes to read this. ...=.195".}
6. Sort the cases into lots of +/-.002 or .003 web thicknesses.
7. Adjust the swager for the particular "web thickness" size lot. Do all the cases in the lot.
8.Move to the next lot and make new adjustment in swager. Repeat back to 7. until finished.

[Roccobro]

Are you camming the lever all the way? I had to mount my SS on a 2x6 so I could clamp it to a bench and get the last 30deg of leverage which occurs past level of machine.

As for the buckling, there should be NO contact with the support rod and the case mouth. And "over swage" would result in a bent support rod. Believe me, I know. :D

Justin

[Randy1911]

Justin,

I mounted mine on the edge of my work bench so I could get a full swing of the lever. The mouth of the case is close to the taper, maybe a 1/16". I called Dillon yesterday but they were not much help. He acted like I was stupid or something, kinda made me mad He said there was no way it could buckle the shoulder. I placed a case in my case gage and it fit perfect, I swaged it and it wouldn't go in then, lacked a quarter inch of going all the way in. I just got my RCBS Trim Mate out and put the military crimp remover on and went to work. It took a loooong time, but I finnally got done. I just got through priming the cases to see how I did. Out of 400 cases I have 12 that I am going to have to redo. I packed the Dillon up and put on the shelf.

[Roccobro]

Put it on ebay or the FS section here. I paid within $20 of a new one for a well used model. They retain their value well.... unless they are worthless to you! :)

Justin

[EddieNFL]

I placed a case in my case gage and it fit perfect, I swaged it and it wouldn't go in then, lacked a quarter inch of going all the way in.

Is that one with a buckled shoulder?

Something is out of spec. Call Dillon again and tell them it doesn't work. If they cannot give any useful advice, request a refund.

The only way I can imagine buckling shoulders is if the taper on the case support rod is cut too high. That doesn't sound like that's your problem, but there is definitely a problem.

Don't give up.

[Lee Roder]

out of curiousity, what is your lever's range of motion? visualizing the lever position in terms of the hour hand on a clock face and looking at the super swage's sticker side, full up should be about 10:30, overhanging the tool, whereas full down should be about 4:30, beneath its rest.

when i received mine a few weeks ago and installed the handle axactly per the instructions, the tool just wasn't decrimping. i was smashing primers. and the lever didn't have a full range of motion for no reason obvious to me. but apparently, the "eccentric" had been installed upside down. right side up up side down looks the same to me but it's a subtle difference which significantly changes the lever's range of motion and the tool's ability to fully remove your crimp. dillon's instructions omits any mention of the potential for this problematic assembly but the tech did point it out to me and solved my problem.

[EddieNFL]

I'll bet that's it, Lee!

Let's us know, Randy.

[EddieNFL]

I just reversed mine to see what happens. It appears to work, only backwards (obviously). Mine is mounted too close to the bench to get a full range of motion, so I'm only guessing it would completely swage the pocket. I'm too lazy to dismount it.

[Randy1911]

Lee Roder

The range of motion on the lever is as you describe, 10:30-4:30, but I will disassemble it and see if that helps. If not I will call Dillon again. The tech I talked to said if I still had problems to call back and ask for Tim Vaughn, he was the 223 expert.

[Randy1911]

Well, turning the cam over won't work. When turned over the lever will only go from about 2:00 -7:00 so that means there is no way to get it backwards. I will just wait till Monday or just keep using the RCBS trim mate w/crimp cutter. I was hoping the Dillon would work because it is so much faster. Just my luck. If I didn't have bad luck, I wouldn't have any luck at all. I'm ready to say "I will never buy another Dillon product again. They're over priced and they don't work".

[EddieNFL]

I'm ready to say "I will never buy another Dillon product again. They're over priced and they don't work".

They'll refund your money or give you a new one. This is the first problem I've ever heard of with a SS. Give 'em a call tomorrow.

[Walkalong]

Yea. They stand behind their stuff, no questions.

[janobles14]

im still simply trying to picture what is going on here. pictures would help immensely.

[Bullet]

Here is mine before and after -

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll98/Bullet94_2008/DSC01597-1-1.jpg

[Randy1911]

Sorry for no pictures, but I have tried but they all come out blurry. My camera just won't take a good close up, it a old camera.

Bullet - When I swage mine I really can't tell much difference in the before and after cases. It doesn't do enough to let me seat a primer. If I adjust the support rod up closer, it will start causing the case to get a slight buckle just where the shoulder and body of the case meet. I don't understand how it is doing that , but it does. I will call Dillon tomorrow and let you know what they say. I wasn't too thrilled with my first conversation with them last week. This time I will ask for Tim Vaughn, the guy they said was a 223 expert.

[Randy1911]

I just got off the phone with Dillon. They are sending FedEx to pick it up.

Here are some pictures.

This one shows before swaging.


http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f314/leecreekkid/reloadingdillon001.jpg
This is the same case after I swage it. I don't understand it. And the primer will not seat either.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f314/leecreekkid/reloadingdillon002.jpg

[EddieNFL]

Are they going to let you know what they find? I'm curious as heck.

[Randy1911]

This is the best I could get the primer to seat. I was uning all my strength trying to seat it.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f314/leecreekkid/reloadingdillon.jpg

[Bullet]

I'd like to hear what Dillon has to say too.

[navyretired 1]

I've always used an RCBS primer pocket swage and never had any of these problems and I've loading many thousand rounds.
You know of course that brass fired in machineguns cna stretch a LOT, I learned this from M60 7.62X51 LC brass. I'm not real familiar with the Dillion but it looks like the support rod could collapse cases if the cases weren't full length sized first.
I know that this is about a Dillion swager but could someone weigh in with experience in both types.

[EddieNFL]

I've always used an RCBS primer pocket swage and never had any of these problems and I've loading many thousand rounds.
You know of course that brass fired in machineguns cna stretch a LOT, I learned this from M60 7.62X51 LC brass. I'm not real familiar with the Dillion but it looks like the support rod could collapse cases if the cases weren't full length sized first.
I know that this is about a Dillion swager but could someone weigh in with experience in both types.
I used an RCBS for a while. Works well, just slower than the Dillon.

I've swaged MG fired brass, both 5.56 and 7.62 on the Dillon. I cannot fathom how I could buckle a case. The case would have to be about 0.100" over max length to contact the tapered portion of the support rod (at least on mine). Assuming proper set-up, there has to be an out of spec part.

[Randy1911]

The brass was fired in a MG. However, I did full length size, trim to 1.750 and chamfer/deburr before swaging. Like you, I am curious as to what Dillon will say. FedEx didn't pick it up today, so maybe tomorrow. The waiting game begins. Hopefully it won't be long.

[EddieNFL]

Randy,

Ever get an answer from Dillon?

[Randy1911]

Dillon had FedEx come pick it up a few weeks ago. I have not heard anything since. I am still waiting. I guess I need to call them.

[EddieNFL]

Please let us know. Inquiring minds...

[counterclockwise]

I like the Dillon 600 because it is an off-press operation. I use the RCBS version (same principle of operation) but it ties up my press. Here is a couple of you-tube movies that show the 600 working. Look closely at the second part. It shows the proper relationship of the parts after assembly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHy-Tvg4xPo

[medalguy]

I've been watching this and wondering what was going on. I have two 600's and have swaged literally tens of thousands of rounds of mil brass and I can't imagine what is wrong, unless something is not in spec. I also still have a ring around the primer pocket after swaging but the primers still seat OK. I also have found several different lots of brass mixed together that have varying web thicknesses. Last batch of 9mm brass was all WCC 08 and I had a heck of a time swaging that brass. I finally figured out there were at least three different web thicknesses. I swaged the brass, those that I felt good resistance to went into pan #1, those that had very little resistance went into #2, and those that the rod indicated absolutely no resistance at all went into pan #3. After doing #1 I moved on to #2 and most of those swaged OK, the others I threw into pan #3, and then I finished up the last batch in pan #3. I had to readjust the rod after each batch. I guess QC at Winchester was out to lunch that day.

Anyway, what was the results of Dillon's inspection? Inquiring minds want to know. My own experience with Dillon has been absolutely great.

[Randy1911]

FedEx truck showed up at my door this morning. I looked it over very well. It was a completely new machine (I had put a small id mark on the bottom of the old swager). I mounted it on my bench this evening and started swaging brass. They all swaged with moderate resistance. I then filled the primer tube with SR primers and went to town. They seated just as easy as if they were commercial brass. I don't know what was wrong with the old one, but this new one works great.

On the invoice it was printed "Read note below". I looked all over and could not find a note of any kind. So I'm still in the dark as to what was wrong with the old one. But I am happy now.:):):)

[Seedtick]

But I am happy now.:):):)

That's the main thing.

ST

:)

[bullseye308]

I'd call them up and ask what the note was supposed to read. Just so you know what the problem really was.

[guntech59]

Glad your problem is solved.

Curious though, what makes you think it was fired in a machine gun? The ejector on the M249 (the only US 5.56 MG) is not on the bolt and does not leave round marks on the brass. I have seen brass come out of AR15s, M16s and M4s like that though.

[Randy1911]

GunTech59 That is what my dealer said when he sold me the brass. It was also very long, 1.770-1.780. I was thinking the brass was in the process of being ejected when it was fired. I could be wrong, just seemed to make sense to me.

[Roccobro]

CONGRATS!!!

Justin