[leon riverrat]

Has anyone tried Lil'gun in the 25/20? I find no published data on its use in the 25/20. Have had good results with it in my hornet and 221 fireball.
Seems it might work in the 25/20, but I'm not sure where to start with the 86 grain Remington bullet. Appreciate any information.

[loadedround]

I found nothing in any of my manuals for Lil Gun and the 25-20. From there i went to the Hodgdon Powder website to check there, and I found many loads for the 25-20, but nothing for Lil Gun. Why not email Hodgdon and ask them directly? Their email address is www.Hodgdon.com It's worth a try. Welcome to the THF website.

[Kernel]

http://images5a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp6323%3A%3Enu%3D3645%3E%3A57%3E257%3EWSNRCG%3D326899877%3B348nu0mrj
Punched the numbers for the .25-20 WCF into my Powley Computer. Don't know how long your bullets are, so I guessed at 0.700". Adjusted the load density down until the pressure was 28,000 cup, which is SAAMI spec for this cartrdige. The Powley Computer likes Lil'Gun for this cartridge/bullet combo. Reduce 10% and work up. Factory ammo is loaded to 20,000 cup, so as a handloader you should be able to significantly improve on factory performace. What are you shooting this in?

[leon riverrat]

Loadedround and Kernel-Thanks for the response. I have sent an e-mail to Hodgdon as suggested but haven't heard back from them.
Kernel-I'm not familar with the Powley computer and am not sure I understand the information provided on the chart in your reply. What would be the amount of lil'gun suggested for use with the 86 grain bullet?
I'm shooting a Kimber 82 single shot. This is a modern bolt gun and should be OK for use with any reasonable load.

[Kernel]

The computer is saying 8.5 grains of Lil’Gun. Reduce that 10% and work up from there. Look for pressure signs and follow good handloading practices.
If you have a chrony you can use that as a tool for load development. The model is predicting 1,630 fps.

It’ll be interesting to see what Hodgdon says. I bet they chicken out and give you an even lower starting load. They’ll probably want you to stay under 20,000 cup and duplicate factory performance, which is about 1,480 fps with a 86 grain bullet (Remington).

A Kimber 82 in .25-20. Different. I thought the 82 was only for rimfire cartridges.

[leon riverrat]

Kernel:
8.3 sure sounds like a small amount of Lil'gun to start with, but it is a starting place. I'll try 7.5 as a starting point and work up. I'll bet this can be increased quiet a bit.
Will advise if and when I hear from Hodgdon.
In the hornet I'm using 13 grains with no signs of high pressure.

[kelbro]

Quickload 'predicts' a max of 9.8-9.9gr with a 20" barrel. That's right at 38Kpsi pressure and nearly 2K fps which is really pushing it for that bullet. 8.5gr gives and estimate of 1760fps @ 25K psi which is close to factory loads.

Quickload is an internal ballistics program that should not be used as an end all-be all in load development but I have used it extensively and it has always been very close.

[Kernel]

Modeling cartridges with teeny tiny cases can be tricky. Seating depth and COAL can have a HUGE effect on the size of the powder space and therefore what constitutes a max charge (or starting load). That’s why I specifically mentioned bullet length in my first post. From a modeling point-of-view, how long your bullets are has a very significant impact on case capacity and therefore performance.

Are you limited to a COAL of 1.592” (SAAMI spec) or can you go longer? Longer is a good thing. Every 10th of an inch you can go beyond 1.592 increases your capacity by 0.7 grains. Relatively speaking, that’s a MASSIVE increase in a case that only holds 19-20 grains empty. Conversely, a bullet that’s one 10th of an inch longer will DECREASE your case capacity by 0.7 grains.

Seeing that the Kimber 82 was designed as a rimfire rifle it’s probably not wise to use it to push the envelope on .25-20 load development. I see it’s been chambered in the .218 Bee and the .22 Hornet. Those are 40,000 cup and 43,000 cup rounds, respectively.

Kelbro’s loads look safe, and there’s probably still room for improvement, if we use Bee/Hornet pressure limits as a guide. 2,000 fps (or beyond) should be a goal. Lil'Gun is a pretty amazing powder. If you could adopt a 1.800” COAL I think 2,200 fps would be possible. You really need a chrony to help you wring out performance on a project like this. Inexpensive ones are only around 100 bucks. I couldn’t imagine handloading without one.

[leon riverrat]

I haven't worked with this rifle in several years. Accuracy has been the issue in the past. This gun was and still is somewhat of a mystery to me in that the only powder which gives any consistant accuracy is norma 200. Groups of around 1.5 inches or less are possible with the speer 75 FP or the Remington 86 grain and this powder. 4198,4227, and other powders usually reccommended for this cartridge are generally in the 2 to 6 inch spread. I've never loaded for any cartridge/rifle that was as particular about the powder as this one is. 12 to 13 grains of Norma 200 gave velocities in the 1700-1800 range. I'm not concerned with wringing the last bit of velocity from this gun, but would like to get groups down to 1 inch.
Lil'gun was not available or at least I wasn't aware of it when I was working with this gun several years ago. I just got to wondering if it would prove to be as suitable in the 25/20 as it has been in the hornet and other small capacity cartridges.
Seems that 7.5 grains with the 86 grain remington bullet seated to a depth to give an OCL of 1.665 is a safe and reasonable starting point. Then it will be a matter of working up to a velocity of 1800 or thereabouts assuming no excessive pressure signs occur. Then finding the best bullet, seating depth, primer and all the other little details that make for a happy ending. Thanks to all for the suggestions and information.

[kelbro]

I have fired literally 1000s of rounds of 25/20 in my Savage Sporter. Shot the 86gr for a long time and put a lot of meat in the freezer with that rifle. A few years ago I started experimenting with the 60s and 75s. More velocity and pretty decent accuracy with 4227. Kills coyotes quickly!

There are quite a few folks using pistol powders like H110/W296 and 2400 with good results too. I have not tried them so I can't offer any advice with those.

25/20WCF is not a high pressure round. Thin brass and most 25/20 receivers don't have an overabundance of steel surrounding them. Have fun with it. Mine's a blast to shoot.

[Vern Humphrey]

A Kimber 82 in .25-20. Different. I thought the 82 was only for rimfire cartridges.
I have 2 Kimber M82s, one in .22 LR and one in .22 Hornet. My load for the Hornet is a case dipped full of Li'l Gun and a 35-grain Hornady V-Max.

[Kernel]

Quote:
A Kimber 82 in .25-20. Different. I thought the 82 was only for rimfire cartridges.

I have 2 Kimber M82s, one in .22 LR and one in .22 Hornet. My load for the Hornet is a case dipped full of Li'l Gun and a 35-grain Hornady V-Max.

I get it. The M82 is sort of like the Ruger 77/22. Mostly a rimfire, but chambered in some lower pressure centerfire cartridges. Or the Single-Six. Most are .22 LR & .22 Mag, but a few were made in .32 H&R.

How and where does the Kimber M82 action lock-up?

[Vern Humphrey]

Root of the bolt, just like a .22.