Double barrel or Pump


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BOOM-BOOM
January 15, 2010, 07:57 PM
Is one better then the other for home defence?
Stage coach shotgun or any model mutipule pump Riot gun

Yes I only have 2 shots with a double barrel. but I'm in my home I don't think its neccessary to have to fire 7 or 8 shots from a shotgun..

Opinions.....

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hawk shooter
January 15, 2010, 08:20 PM
But what if you need to fire three -or - four?

oneounceload
January 15, 2010, 08:31 PM
Then you watch the Clint Smith video to see how to quickly reload a double

BOOM-BOOM
January 15, 2010, 08:33 PM
Hummm I don't know... maybe reload......

Or draw my 357 mag and use it.

Al LaVodka
January 15, 2010, 10:03 PM
I personally hope you stick to the double-barrel, Quick-Draw, but skip questions you don't really want an answer to in the future.

I'm just sayin'...

Al

BOOM-BOOM
January 15, 2010, 10:20 PM
personally hope you stick to the double-barrel, Quick-Draw, but skip questions you don't really want an answer to in the future.


What question am I asking that I don't want an answer for????
I am trying to to ask for opinion on using a side by side or a pump for home SD

Gunfighter123
January 15, 2010, 10:26 PM
Before I ansewer your question , let me ask ----- will you keep the SG loaded all the time or load it after you hear a "bump in the night " ??

BOOM-BOOM
January 15, 2010, 10:29 PM
I keep all my guns loaded.. Why.

Gunfighter123
January 15, 2010, 10:38 PM
I have many SGs ----- my TTN double is a "rabbit ear " hammer gun , fine to leave loaded and just swipe both hammers back and Boom-Boom {lol}

My hammerless double I do not leave loaded --- I don't like to have a "cocked & locked " gun laying around with only a slideing/crossbolt safety to keep it from dischargeing.

My Saiga S-12 semi-auto , I just leave a loaded mag near in --- insert mag , pull back bolt and Boom-Boom.

My Mossberg 500 pump is my " go to " SG ----- load the mag tube full , just rack it and pull ---- BOOM !!!

Gunfighter123
January 15, 2010, 10:40 PM
Boom ---- I will add , that 2 shots from a shotgun will "normally " be enough , I have must more trust in my 8 shot Mossberg pump or 10 rd. Saiga S-12.

BOOM-BOOM
January 15, 2010, 10:41 PM
Ok, so which one of your shotguns would you keep if you only had one?

Gunfighter123
January 15, 2010, 10:46 PM
Hard choice ---- for around the house -- Moss. 500
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b199/Jailbird123/DSC00862.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b199/Jailbird123/DSC01678.jpg

walker944
January 15, 2010, 11:13 PM
I'd prefer to have a few additional rounds already sitting in the tube than to have to attempt a reload of a two barrel. I'd rather not have to take my eyes off the 'target' to look down and reload. Just my $.02...

chevyforlife21
January 15, 2010, 11:31 PM
id take a mossberg pump

zhyla
January 16, 2010, 12:24 AM
I don't see what advantage a SxS has over a pump in a defensive situation. Of course, you knew that because you seem to know something about shotguns and I'm pretty damn sure *nobody* has *ever* recommended a SxS as superior to a pump for HD. But if you've got a SxS and you can run it good, just use that.

Wait... did you press 1 for english first?

BullfrogKen
January 16, 2010, 12:54 AM
I'm pretty damn sure *nobody* has *ever* recommended a SxS as superior to a pump for HD

No?

I have. On many occasions.


It depends on the user, and his/her circumstances.


It takes me much less time to train someone to be proficient with a double barrel than with a repeating arm. And they're shorter, making them easier to manuever with. They're much easier to transition to a slug.


Lots of advantages in a double barrel. Capacity is not the end all, be all.

devildog32713
January 16, 2010, 01:49 AM
I utilize a Mosberg 500 Persuader, yeah 8 shots a lot, but better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. Slugs and buckshot, on the stock

Milkmaster
January 16, 2010, 07:47 AM
Either one works. The best HD shotgun is the one you practiced with enough to run it with your eyes closed. Running an unfamiliar gun at night under stress would not be an ideal situation regardless of how many shots you have. Choose a shotgun that YOU handle easily and practice with often. The bad guy won't know which kind of shotgun the buck pellets in his flesh came from if you do your part right. Good Luck!

Sav .250
January 16, 2010, 08:17 AM
"opinions".............. a short barreled double. As for the 7-8 shots . I get your drift but if your defending your home/family. I`m thinking, you can always patch the walls or what ever but in that moment,damage control is the least of your worries.
As home invasions seem to include more than one person, 7-8 rounds fired is a real possibility. Just saying.
A double seems to be less likely to mal-function, where as the pump "could" possibly jam, and/or not eject a shell (for several reasons.)IMO.

Al LaVodka
January 16, 2010, 01:59 PM
Interesting opinion of the reliability of a double vs. a pump, but not the reality in my experience.
Al

Grunt
January 16, 2010, 02:29 PM
personally hope you stick to the double-barrel, Quick-Draw, but skip questions you don't really want an answer to in the future.


What question am I asking that I don't want an answer for????
I am trying to to ask for opinion on using a side by side or a pump for home SD

I think what he means is that it's pretty apparent that you have already settled on a side by side rather than a pump and are now trying to get justification from others here on this board in the form of their approval. You made a choice that you feel will work for you and more power to you. However myself and a lot of others here would not choose one for defensive use. For example, I personally believe that the double barrel shotgun's role as a fighting gun was made obsolete in 1897 and while I own a Rossi coach gun for SASS shooting, it's a game gun only and will never see a day as a defensive gun in my house. That's what the role my Remingtons and Mossbergs fill. If it works for you, great but it's not something that would work for me.

huntsman
January 16, 2010, 02:51 PM
Is one better then the other for home defence?
Stage coach shotgun or any model mutipule pump Riot gun

Yes I only have 2 shots with a double barrel. but I'm in my home I don't think its neccessary to have to fire 7 or 8 shots from a shotgun..

Opinions.....
If you’re buying and have less than $500.00 I’d tell you to stick with the pump.

I don’t believe using a double is a handicap, remember a pump is only a single shot till you cycle the action and I’d rather have two shots than one.

Fred Fuller
January 16, 2010, 03:13 PM
Is a pump better than a SxS? Not really, but IMHO a LOT more depends on the shooter than the shotgun.

Personally, with the numbers of thugs involved in home invasions these days (increasingly, two or more), I'd rather have a pumpgun. But then, I'm one of those Bocephus-lyric "ol boys raised on shotguns" and literally grew up shooting a pumpgun. If you're better/more confident with a SxS, use one and be prepared to reload if you have to.

Harden your home to make it a less inviting and less vulnerable target, first and foremost. And no matter what shotgun you choose- train with it, practice with it, set up plans for home defense and practice executing those plans. See the NRA's Personal Protection In The Home class for guidelines- find out if it's being taught near you at http://www.nrainstructors.org/CourseCatalog.aspx . Or see the DVD at http://materials.nrahq.org/go/product.aspx?productid=ES%2026840 .

hth,

lpl

mrjohnston
January 16, 2010, 03:40 PM
Pump The quick follow up of a SxS is lost in reload time. I'd rather have a consistent cadence of fire for 7 rounds, and soon I'll have a 6 round side saddle and 6 on the buttstock. I think 19 rounds will handle most any engagement I find myself in. BTW this is my truck/HD/round the house gun.

MachIVshooter
January 16, 2010, 03:41 PM
Interesting opinion of the reliability of a double vs. a pump, but not the reality in my experience.

If you've ever had a pump jam, this is a very valid argument in favor of the SxS. I've had 870's and 500's jam, and clearing them often involves breaking them down. That's not an option in a fight for your life.

No mechanical device is 100% reliable, and the hammers of a double could fail. But there is really no type of failure short of parts breakage that would render a double completely useless. Even if one shell got stuck in the chamber, you still have the other chamber.

I personally use an 11-87 Police for HD, and mine has proven 100% relaible, except for cheap Winchester value pack shells (not enough oomph to cycle the gun). But it's not my only HD gun, either. There is an AR-10, a Marlin camp-45, A Savage-Fox 20 ga. and three handguns in the room to back it up.

The more I had to depend on a weapon, the simpler I'd want it to be. I'd take a SxS over a pump as my only HD gun.

armsmaster270
January 16, 2010, 03:48 PM
I'll go with the Mossy or Rem 870 Empty chamber loaded magazine tube. and I have these as backups
Mine
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/armsmaster270/writings/DSCF1056.jpg

The Wife's
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/armsmaster270/writings/DSCF1006.jpg

Youngster
January 16, 2010, 03:57 PM
There are a lot of folks who stand a good chance of short stroking under high stress and they may be better off with a double.

Milkmaster
January 16, 2010, 04:08 PM
There are a lot of folks who stand a good chance of short stroking under high stress and they may be better off with a double.


Good point and goes back to my former post in this debate which was...

Either one works. The best HD shotgun is the one you practiced with enough to run it with your eyes closed. Running an unfamiliar gun at night under stress would not be an ideal situation regardless of how many shots you have. Choose a shotgun that YOU handle easily and practice with often. The bad guy won't know which kind of shotgun the buck pellets in his flesh came from if you do your part right. Good Luck!

content
January 16, 2010, 04:26 PM
Hello friends and neighbors // I choose pump with a butt cuff of slugs.

The SXS gives you a great first shot choice, say 00 in one barrel and slug in the other. (If you can choose which barrel to fire)
The main con IMHO with the SXS is where to keep your reloads. My Express holds 7 and my Wingmaster holds 8 plus the butt cuff.

BOOM-BOOM
January 16, 2010, 05:27 PM
Grunt, I haven't bought a shotgun yet, but I am leaning towards the sxs because of the size. I think it would be easier to manuver in a house with the shorter verson like the stage coach.

Plus, its a lot like a revolver in reliability. Pull trigger and gun goes boom.

Another factor I'm concern with is arthritis.. not to bad yet but bad enough I've replaced my pistols with revolvers...all except one...I can't bare to part with my Kel-tek 3AT.

So I think I'm going to go with the sxs...

Thanks for everyones in put....

sheepdog
January 16, 2010, 06:07 PM
...I'd suggest if arthritis is serious that you go with 20 ga. with buckshot or slugs...a lot less recoil and still powerful enough to stop the threat....

the iron horse
January 16, 2010, 06:23 PM
I have a Mosseberg .12 Ga. Persuader.

Does it damage the springs to keep it loaded?

Thanks

MCgunner
January 16, 2010, 07:10 PM
I keep a hammerless coach gun cocked and locked. Why not? I hunt with it that way. I've got it where if it were to discharge, it'd be into the wall. I've been hunting with doubles since 1971 and never had an issue.

Pumps have more capacity if you're a poor shot.

Coach guns are more compact and, at least for me, easier to use in confined spaces and quick to the shoulder. I do have a butt cuff with five rounds on it for reloads just in case a get attacked by a zombie motorcycle gang.

MCgunner
January 16, 2010, 07:12 PM
I have a Mosseberg .12 Ga. Persuader.

Does it damage the springs to keep it loaded?

Thanks

The magazine springs on mossbergs are pretty poor, anyway. Mine's a little limp, but feeds fine. It's a hunting gun, though. Wolf, I believe, makes a stronger one that I'd get for a self defense shotgun.

I've never had a problem leaving the gun cocked in storage between seasons, unloaded, of course. It's 20 years old and still killin' ducks.

MortalWombat
January 16, 2010, 07:59 PM
The consensus from metallurgical engineers is that constant compression is not bad on springs made from modern steel. Cycling over and over from compression to extension does wear them out, however. Think about a car. Do its springs go bad from sitting around under constant compression? I think the main concern in shotguns is that the shells might slightly deform from constant compression, causing feeding problems, so you might want to rotate them with fresh ones every once in a while.

76shuvlinoff
January 16, 2010, 08:21 PM
I have a stoked 870 two steps from the bed, I figure the two big loud sissy dogs and the bedside 1911 are going to get me those steps. I also have a shorty single shot with a buttcuff of 00 stashed nearby. However, I always keep my eyes open for the right deal on a coach double to round out an HD trio.

leadcounsel
January 16, 2010, 08:23 PM
The only advantage to a pump is more immediate shots, usually about 3 or 4 times the number before reload.

However there ARE advantages to a SxS.
1. Near zero chance for mechanical failure. If there is a mechanical failure, you have another barrel immediately available. There is a greater chance, albeit still slim, that a pump (or greater chance for semi-auto) to mechanically bind, fail to feed or eject and cause a stopage.

2. Short, light, easy to maneuver.

3. You could load one barrel with slug, the other with buckshot. You have the immediate use of either or both shells.

4. If practiced, reloads could be quick.

5. Maximum firepower possible! Give em both barrels! Big enough threat may warrant both barrels, followed by dropping the weapon and drawing your backup immediately.

jad0110
January 16, 2010, 09:08 PM
...I'd suggest if arthritis is serious that you go with 20 ga. with buckshot or slugs...a lot less recoil and still powerful enough to stop the threat....

I'm not particularly recoil sensitive, but my fathers 20" 12 ga coach gun has absolutely hellacious recoil. To me anyway. When ever I do shoot it, I usually do so from the hip.

If I were getting a 20" SxS, I think I'd give serious consideration to a 20 ga for this reason.

MortalWombat
January 16, 2010, 09:14 PM
I'm not particularly recoil sensitive, but my fathers 20" 12 ga coach gun has absolutely hellacious recoil.Have you tried Aguila mini shells (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=162922) in it? They have much less recoil than standard 2.75" shells. You might want to see how they pattern in it.

Note: the velocity listed on that page is incorrect. It's 366 meters/sec, not ft/sec.

mrjohnston
January 16, 2010, 11:04 PM
Get a stoeger double defender and a UTG light with intergral M1913 mount. Cheap/reliable/short/light/quick It's perfect.

sheepdog
January 17, 2010, 10:44 AM
...forgot the Mini-shells...have my 1200 pump loaded with them...turn a 5-shotmagazine into an 8-shot magazine...plenty of power for HD...but the 1200's the only pump I've found that they'd feed reliably in...the ad says 1300 but bought a new one and would not feed...then the importer said it requires some modification...an old Ted Williams model 200 is the same as the 1200 and they are easily found...

Deer Hunter
January 17, 2010, 10:54 AM
I guess having your cake and eating it too is out of the question? :)

MachIVshooter
January 17, 2010, 12:56 PM
Think about a car. Do its springs go bad from sitting around under constant compression?

Yes. Fortunately, most cars don't spend their entire lives loaded to capacity. Sitting without occupants or payload only compresses the springs minimally.

Balog
January 17, 2010, 05:51 PM
Can anyone recommend a SxS with double triggers and ejectors? Stainless ideally but carbon is good too.

Hawk
January 17, 2010, 06:16 PM
...and I'm pretty damn sure *nobody* has *ever* recommended a SxS as superior to a pump for HD.

Without personally getting entangled in the debate, I would note that such a recommendation is not altogether unheard of.

A lady of our acquaintance, who lives alone, has asked us what sort of instrument is best for house defense in her case. To me the answer is easy: The "Lupara," a double-barreled 12-gauge shotgun with exposed hammers and short barrels. I understand the term Lupara is Sicilian and means approximately "wolf killer." Such a piece is enormously authoritative, it is easy to use, it requires minimal training in its management, and it may be left loaded and uncocked indefinitely on the closet shelf. The only precaution is to seal the muzzles with scotch tape or cotton wool to avoid the building of nests in the barrels by little varmints.

Such items are available from Rossi and Baikal, though you may have to hunt around for them at gun shows. Usually they are very reasonable in price.

That was Jeff Cooper in 1994. I heard he knew a thing or two about such matters.

mrjohnston
January 17, 2010, 06:27 PM
I want a single trigger stoeger coach gun with barrels about 10-12"s. That'd be a helluva truck gun.

http://www.doubleshotguns.com/ugarUC3.htm

Ok so actually a SxS with ejectors is tough to find. It's undesirable in the field where most SxS's are used. Even the coach gun just has extractors. I don't remember mine kicking them out. Now a H&R Pardner will sling a empty hull into the next county. lol It's a fun game to see if you can aim 'em at folks.

Fred Fuller
January 17, 2010, 08:07 PM
OK, folks- back to The High Road now.

lpl

dom1104
January 17, 2010, 08:32 PM
Trying to say what will be enough is always folly.

You never know what you will face till it happens.

Me I prepare for the worst. (Shtf total financial collapse). Anything less is infinatly more likely but prepare for the worst and you will be ready for the rest.

augustino
January 18, 2010, 12:16 AM
If you've got to depend upon 1 SG for HD go for the pump.
Don't care which brand you select. That boils down to what "FITS" you personally, best. There's plenty of great shotguns out there I'm certain you'll find one that feels great. But the bottom line is that, at 3:00AM when someone's breaking in, I want more than two rounds at my disposal. What if it's 2 or more burglars, they do work in teams you know. Call me insecure but the pump wins. By the way I have had someone break into an apartment I was living in a few years ago. Thank GOD I did not have to shoot him. Sure he was a drugged out, low life that would have shot me in a NY minute. But taking a life is something I never want to do. It's one of the most serious actions a human being can take and I feel that if there's anything one can do to keep from shooting a human, they should.
I guess the only thing I would regret more than having to shoot a human being, is not having shot one that harmed my family. Go for the pump. Use the pump. Get familiar with that pump and when you use it be sure that it feels like a third arm. Natural and part of you.

lobo9er
January 18, 2010, 12:38 AM
I have avoided this one but I would like to say SxS offers Tad more reliability. SxS or single shot it comes down to practice.

Lovesbeer99
January 18, 2010, 11:52 AM
I curious about this. We are talking home defense right? Has there ever been a documented case where an HD situation turned into a war zone? From everything I've read or seen on TV once shots are fired people run. There have been cases where a home owner shot at a suspect who returned fire on his way out the door, but has there ever been a scene where a suspect took cover, reload and attached in a 2x2 cover formation?

I could be wrong but I'd suspect that once shots are fired, even just 2, people split quick. For police work, or military applications I would not select a double, but for HD I'd have no problem with a double.

Actually, I'd like a handgun near by as back up, but a double a good choice for me.

BullfrogKen
January 18, 2010, 12:12 PM
My research mirrors your thoughts, Lovesbeer.

Unless the attack is personal in some way - like gang retribution - or the home has specific assets of great value that the attackers are specifically targeting, once guns come out people begin to alter their behavior. Among other things, guns are behavior modification tools. And once gunfire begins people begin to significantly alter their behavior.

Two shots from a shotgun will significantly change the dynamics of the encounter. Even after the repeating shotgun had developed into a well-respected long gun and had long ago had all of its bugs worked out, the double barrel was still a well-regarded tool. For many years the New York City Police Detectives bought and issued the Stevens 311R, a 20 inch barrelled 12 gauge, to it's City Detectives for use in warrant service. The little research I've done on it showed they were still in use up into the 1980's.

dom1104
January 18, 2010, 12:41 PM
Counting on them running sounds like a bad idea.

Have the firepower in case you need it.

If you go by statistics alone, you dont even need a gun. Stastically most people will never need one and get by fine their whole life.

If we arent preparing for the "unlikely" then what are we doing?

Pumps are cheaper, 99% reliable, and have more firepower.

IF ITS ALL YOU HAVE a double is probably ok. But I would not select it over a pump any day of the week.

BullfrogKen
January 18, 2010, 12:51 PM
IF ITS ALL YOU HAVE a double is probably ok. But I would not select it over a pump any day of the week.


Maybe not for yourself, but you are who you are, and your needs might not be the same as someone else.

You might be willing to spend the time to learn a pump. Or maybe you haven't and it's little more than a talisman. I don't know.

But some folks are simply unwilling to commit the time and practice it takes to learn to work a pump shotgun. Pumps require more maintenance. Pumps require the user stay in practice with it to take advantage of the additional capacity. A pump in the hands of someone who cannot run it under stress is little more than clumbsy a single shot.


Pumps are cheaper, 99% reliable, and have more firepower.

A good quality pump is not cheaper than the same quality double. Stoeger coach guns fall right about in line price wise with an 870 and a 500.

More capacity in the gun is not the end-all, be-all. There are a more factors to consider when chosing a shotgun appropriate to someone's lifestyle than ammunition capacity. Doubles have two rounds immediately on tap. Malfunctions are not always due to the gun. Ammo malfunctions, too. Even the best of ammunition has a predictible failure rate.

fireside44
January 18, 2010, 01:06 PM
Two shots from a shotgun will significantly change the dynamics of the encounter.

I disagree. One shot will significantly change the dynamics of the encounter.

The way some talk you'd think that their first move in a HD scenario would be to empty their 8 shot Mossberg 12 gauge all in one volley.

Also, I think a lot guys don't realize just how fast a double barrel or single shot shotgun can be reloaded. Three shells, stuck between the fingers of your left hand, can be loaded up in an awful hurry if need be.

My only shotgun right now is a pardner 12 with a cut down 18" barrel. Not only is it extremely fast handling, more so than the most "tactical" of Mossbergs and Remingtons, but it can be reloaded in just over one second. Put it this way, I don't spend my nights worrying that my shotgun is ineffective or insufficient. I sleep quite well actually.:)

MCgunner
January 18, 2010, 01:18 PM
Trying to say what will be enough is always folly.

You never know what you will face till it happens.

Me I prepare for the worst. (Shtf total financial collapse). Anything less is infinatly more likely but prepare for the worst and you will be ready for the rest.

It don't get a little rough sleepin' on all them gold bars in your mattress? :D I don't figure I need a drum mag Saiga for bedroom defense. I live in a town of 10K. If I need more than the coach gun, I'll pick up my .357 magnum.

I don't own a gun specifically for home defense. I reckon I could get a short barrel for my Mossberg 500, but my Spartan 20 that I shoot doves with is pretty mean with 3 buck. If you live in a house without locks in Harlem, get yourself a Saiga. :D

Signed....

Elmer

dom1104
January 18, 2010, 01:36 PM
It don't get a little rough sleepin' on all them gold bars in your mattress? I don't figure I need a drum mag Saiga for bedroom defense. I live in a town of 10K. If I need more than the coach gun, I'll pick up my .357 magnum.


Sounds like you got me pegged right off the bat. :) I do have significant doubts as to the short term financial stability of this country. :)

Yes a single shot H&R would handle 99% of situations that the average american homeowner encounters. I can buy that. Its the OTHER 1% that I am looking to prepare for.

And yes, of course you need to learn to use your tools.

All I am saying is, we live in a country that has some states very close to being failed. I heard last week that Californias municipal bonds have the same credit rating as Kazahkistans.

Things could get very bad very fast when the welfare checks stop getting mailed.

Just one scenario that could happen VERY soon.

Last night I came home to my house, my wife went inside and said "There is someone in our house".

I had a gun on me and discovered the furnace repairman her grandmother let in had turned on our lights. :)

If it WAS a bad guy, was it going to be one person? 2? 3? 5? would I miss once? twice?

Last week a friend of mines brothers head was beat to a pulp by "multiple persons" invading his home.

For ME, I prefer the ability to deal with situations greater than "normal".

My last 3 870 wingmasters were around 150 - 200 bucks, and I consider them excellent guns.

There is a reason we carry j frames instead of derringers.

Firepower is a good thing. Frankly it would take a LOT of argueing to get me to change my mind on that.

If you are going to use a double for HD, like many have suggested have a backup sidearm at least.

I have hunted quite a bit with a double, know all the finger tricks. Do I trust MYSELF to do that sort of reloading under stress like I felt last night? No sir.

Also it is rather difficult to mount a flashlight to a double gun <unless you go with that stoeger abomination> while it is a very cheap proposition on a pump.

Not trying to start anything, really not trying to argue just trying to get my initial point across.

MCgunner
January 20, 2010, 05:42 PM
There is a reason we carry j frames instead of derringers.

J frame? How's about a 13 round Kel Tec P11? Smaller than a J frame and nearly 3 times the firepower. Hey, there might be 6 assailants, right? :D

Yeah, you can get carried away with this stuff IMHO. 870s work. I just don't choose to shoot a special gun in the house, rather shoot one I hunt with that works. If I got an 18.5" barrel for my Mossberg, no doubt, I'd forget the put the plug back in for duck season and it'd cost me. :rolleyes: I got checked this year during teal season. I could buy another Mossberg. I mean, I could probably find one used cheap. After all, the controls are the same, but I just stick the little coach gun next to the bed and live happy.

Bud Tugly
January 21, 2010, 02:20 AM
I've used single and double break open guns for hunting for over 40 years and would feel perfectly confident firing and reloading one in any situation. I've never owned a pump and have only fired one a few times so I'd be a bit leery about using one in a stressful situation.

That's just me and my personal experience. Whatever a peson chooses you'd better shoot it lots and often until you're totally comfortable with using it before you trust your life to it. I really worry that there are folks who buy a gun for HD, put a dozen or so rounds through it, and then think they're safe from bad guys.

Practice and intimate familiarity are FAR more important than the weapon you choose.

Lovesbeer99
January 21, 2010, 07:49 PM
Just a follow up. A member posted that he should "prepare for the worst".
How do you difine the "Worst". Is this a home invasion with 10 armed men each with special forces training? Is this 2 guys each with a shotgun kicking down your door at 4am? To say a double is not enough hardly answers the question. Do you need 2 AR's (incase the 1st malfunctions) with 30, 20 round mags?

I'm guessing a short double with extra rounds handy will satify all your needs unless you are attached by a team with a personal vendetta who spent time preparring for an attach. I'd feel more comfortable with a hand gun as back up and that's easy to do.

Again I'm talking about Home Defense and not a civil war, police action, SHTF callapse of the country.

WVMountainBoy
January 21, 2010, 08:40 PM
A double has a place in my home, it stays loaded with a pair of 00 in her pipes. She's short, easy to get down my hall quick like if need be. Points very natural and patterns very tight with both barrels (though the right one has a bit more spread) Now saying all that, there is also a loaded 870, but the Baikal is whats beside the bed.

huntsman
January 21, 2010, 11:49 PM
Is this a home invasion with 10 armed men each with special forces training? Is this 2 guys each with a shotgun kicking down your door at 4am? To say a double is not enough hardly answers the question. Do you need 2 AR's (incase the 1st malfunctions) with 30, 20 round mags?

I don't know about you but those odds are losing to me. There’s a time to fight and a time to flee and going up against even two men and you having a pump would seem very risky.

LeontheProfessional
January 21, 2010, 11:53 PM
I like the idea of a sxs for HD. It has the intimidation factor not to mention it gives you two shots as fast as the trigger can be pulled.

jakemccoy
January 22, 2010, 12:21 AM
"Run what you brung." I would make a sxs work if that's all I had. However, a pump seems advantageous. Also, I think some people here are just "sticking up for the little guy" and don't honestly think a sxs shotgun is better than a pump for home defense. By the way, I haven't seen any police officers or military personnel running sxs shotguns, but that observation could be due to my limited experience.

jakemccoy
January 22, 2010, 12:33 AM
I curious about this. We are talking home defense right? Has there ever been a documented case where an HD situation turned into a war zone?
There's a recent 2009 case involving a couple who got overtaken military style:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/07/10/Florida.couple.killed/

But I'm sure somebody here can nitpick a detail why that case doesn't count for your question.

=====

Anyway, I'm sure there are plenty of people on this site with lots of valuables in there homes. So, we might as well discuss this topic as if a robber is relatively sophisticated and has a strong motivation to intrude a home.

Balog
January 22, 2010, 03:57 AM
If you feel the need to emulate police and .mil in your home defense preps, I hope you have body armour, night vision, and claymores ready to go at a moments notice. Don't worry, you can always duct tape the extra trauma plates on just in case the Spetnaz invading your home start with suppressive fire from a heavy machine gun. :rolleyes:

I wouldn't say a SxS is necessarily better. I would say it's not necessarily worse though. All action types have pros and cons, although "But that's not what the real operators use!!!" is not a legitimate part of the equation imho.

Six
January 22, 2010, 09:27 AM
But I'm sure somebody here can nitpick a detail why that case doesn't count for your question.

How many shots did the Billings fire?

jakemccoy
January 22, 2010, 07:03 PM
How many shots did the Billings fire?

I was just answering the question. I didn't realize shots had to be fired on both sides in order for a situation to resemble a war zone.

If you feel the need to emulate police and .mil in your home defense preps, I hope you have body armour, night vision, and claymores ready to go at a moments notice.

My point is that if someone wants to argue that a SxS is more effective, then that's weird to me because I have not seen cops or soldiers issued SxS shotguns instead of pumps. In other words, I have never seen a photo of a cop or a soldier in my entire life using a SxS shotgun as their issued weapon. That's just an observation based on my limited experience. If a SxS is more effective, then one would think I would have seen at least one photo of a cop or soldier with a SxS as an issued weapon instead of a pump.

Dee
January 22, 2010, 09:00 PM
I don't know about you but those odds are losing to me. There’s a time to fight and a time to flee and going up against even two men and you having a pump would seem very risky.

If you are at home then where are you going to flee too? If someone or a few people broke into my house then I think I least owe it to my family to try and fight them off any way I can. I don't have experience w/ an SXS but I think a pump is well suited for the task for reasons already mentioned, plus a good sidearm, XD-.45 in my case.

Al LaVodka
January 22, 2010, 09:06 PM
I dunno. I've seen LOTS of cops and deputys with sxs shotguns on duty. Of course it was the Earp's and Doc Holiday...

We're spending alot of time on a silly premise that wasn't a real question to begin with.

Al

jakemccoy
January 22, 2010, 09:15 PM
Funny, I bet you wouldn't call the premise silly if you could post some photos of cops and soldiers using SxS shotguns.

Anyway, please explain how that's silly. If a SxS is honestly, actually, literally more effective than a pump, then why aren't more (or any) professionals using them on their jobs?

I've never been accused of being a silly person, but I will admit that I do have limited experience. If I sound like just a newbie talking, then it should be easy to articulate the reasons why.

mrjohnston
January 22, 2010, 09:19 PM
i dunno. I've seen lots of cops and deputys with sxs shotguns on duty. Of course it was the earp's and doc holiday...

We're spending alot of time on a silly premise that wasn't a real question to begin with.

Al

exactly

/thread

jakemccoy
January 22, 2010, 09:32 PM
No worries, I started a new thread since my premise seems to be off topic:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=500260

huntsman
January 22, 2010, 10:53 PM
If you are at home then where are you going to flee too? If someone or a few people broke into my house then I think I least owe it to my family to try and fight them off any way I can. I don't have experience w/ an SXS but I think a pump is well suited for the task for reasons already mentioned, plus a good sidearm, XD-.45 in my case.
No you owe it to your family to have a plan first, and that should be safety for them first and foremost.

Do you think that can reasonably be achieved with bullets flying through your house?

You only have 1 door and no windows?

reckless carolinian
January 23, 2010, 01:57 AM
Isn't the best kind of shotgun the one you have? Your favorite, reliable friend? It matters not if it loads from the breech, or from beneath. Isn't that rule 1 of shotgunning? To have a shotgun? Kinda puts the issue to rest, eh?

Al LaVodka
January 23, 2010, 09:22 AM
Isn't the best kind of shotgun the one you have? Your favorite, reliable friend? It matters not if it loads from the breech, or from beneath. Isn't that rule 1 of shotgunning? To have a shotgun? Kinda puts the issue to rest, eh?
Um, no.

The one you HAVE for a selected purpose is the one you CHOSE to buy, practice with, become familiar with, etc. This leads almost all men to a trusted pump shotgun and has for a hundred years. Your retiring-the-subject is based on the rule of "something is better than nothing" and its corollary, "whatever (often cheap) gun I happen to own is the best."

The OP's "question" was from the rule of "I think I'll tell everyone my sxs shotgun is my choice for HD by pretending to get THEIR opinions, look for affirmation, get defensive when it doesn't happen, and hope anyone helps identify any underwhelming advantages of a sxs." His early comment about jerking a .357 outta his pajamas if he needed more shots shoulda ended this thread alone IMO...

Al

ArmedBear
January 23, 2010, 09:36 AM
Maybe his pajamas have belt loops.:D

The more I shoot shotguns, the more I hate pumps. Repeaters in general are the most problematic shotguns. The OP notwithstanding, I might choose a SxS myself, but only a top-quality one with a single mechanical trigger (no inertia!) and auto ejectors. I don't know of any such animal on the market today, so I'm back to a pump.

Dee
January 23, 2010, 09:38 AM
No you owe it to your family to have a plan first, and that should be safety for them first and foremost.

Do you think that can reasonably be achieved with bullets flying through your house?

You only have 1 door and no windows?


Well I do have plans based on different scenarios, however none of them include jumping or trying to climb down a window that in my case is between 10-30 ft off of the ground. Also we would have to cross living areas to get to any of the exterior doors in my house which is likely where the BG's would be anyway. Plus there may likely be at least one BG outside ready to take pot shots at you as you try and flee your house.

The safest place in my house is the masterbath closet, it would be a priority for me to get my wife and son there, wife armed w/ pistol. I would remain in the masterbed ready w/ shotgun.

oneounceload
January 23, 2010, 09:39 AM
AB - IIRC, SKB has mechanical triggers, at least on some guns like their 28 gauge. Inertia triggers can be switched to mechanical - it's done all the time for folks who shoot sub-gauge skeet sets so the 410 will work.

ArmedBear
January 23, 2010, 09:47 AM
I was thinking of HD guns, but you're right, one could cut down a field gun. I don't know of any "coach guns" being sold today, that I'd actually trust for HD.

Most SKBs have inertia triggers, but you're right, one can modify any quality gun to have mechanicals. Their SxS guns haven't been made for a long time, but they are available. Actually, right now, nobody's making SKBs at all.

Lovesbeer99
January 23, 2010, 09:54 AM
Jake - I have answer to your question -

If a SxS is honestly, actually, literally more effective than a pump, then why aren't more (or any) professionals using them on their jobs?

Because they have a different definition of Job. Based on your argument all local PD's should be carrying MP5s and granades. I don't think a sxs would be very affective going house to house in Iraq, but for a home owner locked with his familly in a bedroom with the police on the phone, as sxs can be a formidable weapon and means of immediate defense. As I mentioned before we are talking about home defense and not civil war, police action or an attack by a team of special forces trained hired help.

A snub nose .38 can be an affective tool for HD but it's also not a primary carry piece for law enforement or military. Same goes for Walther PPK , or a Ruger 10/22. Recently I've read in the "Armed Citizen" section of the American Rifleman magazine, people have fended off attackers with 22 caliber rifles. No joke

Al LaVodka
January 23, 2010, 10:52 AM
Jake - I have answer to your question -



Because they have a different definition of Job. Based on your argument all local PD's should be carrying MP5s and granades. I don't think a sxs would be very affective going house to house in Iraq, but for a home owner locked with his familly in a bedroom with the police on the phone, as sxs can be a formidable weapon and means of immediate defense. As I mentioned before we are talking about home defense and not civil war, police action or an attack by a team of special forces trained hired help.

A snub nose .38 can be an affective tool for HD but it's also not a primary carry piece for law enforement or military. Same goes for Walther PPK , or a Ruger 10/22. Recently I've read in the "Armed Citizen" section of the American Rifleman magazine, people have fended off attackers with 22 caliber rifles. No joke
Stating police would carry MP5's and grenades is a misrepresentation intended to mislead the readers, or, sorry Lovesbeer, you're just not logical. Obviously they could and don't so they SHOULDN'T be carrying those. They DO have pump-shotguns (and even semi-autos) and so you are implying civilians don't need 'em. That we should be content with less. Relegated to mere civilian status and intimating we should know our place. Whose side are you on? Gonna ban private ownership of pump-actions next!?

Do you think the local police are usually doing a whole lot more than YOU might need to do at home in the worst cases? I would argue that we, citizens, have to be able to do a whole lot more than them. From defending one's own person and family's lives real-time, the most basic natural right, to defending our nation. Police do neither! How do you know what people may have to do in defense of their home and hearth, and why would you take a position that they should arm themselves for the least intensive encounter? This is so misguided. Let's have no more red-herrings please launched by a disingenuous poster. Again, if you have a choice, why would you not choose the state-of-the-art for a broader range of situations vs. "better-than-nothing" or get defensive about what limiting obsolete technology you happen to already own? Of course people have defended themselves w/a .22 -- but none didn't wish they had something bigger and better at that moment.

This is simply not an intellectually honest thread anymore IMO.

Al

berettashotgun
January 23, 2010, 11:11 AM
My choices for a home defense shotgun.

Beretta AL2/301/302/303
Gosh these are reliable shotguns.
Unbelievably reliable.
Mechanically identical in almost every aspect.
The 1200/1201 FP is pretty nice - just fractures your collarbone while shooting from the floor.:banghead:

I'd never choose a pump over a double unless the 3rd and 4th shot were super critical.
A double makes a nice spear to the face.:evil:

I'm just not that proficient with a pump.:uhoh:
Zero confidence and little practice.
A 24" barreled 20ga. SxS or O/U with some hevishot BB would be pretty much perfect.:cool:
Skeet and Skeet choke is a must.

Lovesbeer99
January 23, 2010, 11:19 AM
Vodka Ė I donít understand your first sentence at all. My point was that if police carry pumps and not sxs cause they are more affective, then donít we have other arms that are more effective than a pump? Local police donít carry full autos, but they have them near by with special trained teams if needed. Military carry full autos cause they readily need them.
I never implied civilians should not use pumps and I do agree they can be very effective. But saying that pump is more effective than a sxs shouldnít we first define effective?
To then reach over the top and assume that Iím a gun banner is, well, way over the top. Whoís team Iím on is an inappropriate question cause I donít know which team youíre on. Itís also a pointless question. Iíll take the highroad and not address the last sentence in your 2nd paragraph.
To answer your last question, why do you assume that a pump is most effective when you donít even know who I am? Iíve not yet met a professional, or read an article written by a professional who would claim that there is 1 most effective gun for everyone. Each person based on training, living conditions, comfort, physical strength, etc has to choice their own ďBestĒ gun.
Finally, to have an intellectual conversation its best to listen openly and not jump to conclusions and prejudices about a poster youíve never met.

berettashotgun
January 23, 2010, 11:21 AM
Anyone here ever heard of the """private message""" system.
Never liked my mommy hanging out dirty laundry when I was still wetting the bed..

BullfrogKen
January 23, 2010, 11:28 AM
I’ve not yet met a professional, or read an article written by a professional who would claim that there is 1 most effective gun for everyone. Each person based on training, living conditions, comfort, physical strength, etc has to choice their own “Best” gun.


Which is pretty much what I've been saying as well.

Side by sides are much easier to get proficient with and master than a repeating shotgun. They have their advantages. More capacity is not always better.


To each his own.

joeyl
January 23, 2010, 12:43 PM
Imho, there's a lot of variables involved in choosing pump over sxs or any weapon for hd. I used to keep my 1200 defender by my bed. I'm practiced enough to feel comfortable to avoid short cycling it, my three kids almost(youngest is 17) my wife not a chance. She understands guns and the why. Just not into going to the range. I bought a stoeger coach gun in 12gauge. Between the kids and I we've shot it enough to be comfortable with operating it and the reliability of it. Although my wife hasn't shot it, shes done a little bit of drilling with it (picking it up, sliding the safety off, pointing it and pulling the triggers). I just added a limbsaver to it and picked up some remington reduced recoil buck. For backup I have an old well practiced by all, 38. Live in an area of single family houses on small (35x125') lots, very well lit at night. Short of shtf i feel comfortable with what I keep out, very easy to use, even under extreme stress. Also I live in Crook County, like it or not I've got to consider possible consequences of a shooting (hoping that it NEVER occurs), with Asa's more willing to go after the law abiding citizen than the armed thugs walking with virtual impunity in the inner city neighborhoods. While very lethal my sxs can be described as a replica of an antique old west outdated cowboy relic ;-) paired with an equally outdated revolver made in the early 1950's. Unfortunately one must take into account a jury pool of locals. If I lived in a more rural area or area with more common sense laws, I might equip myself otherwise. But as I said it's the different circumstances that determine that. Don't mean to be so long winded.

ishida
January 23, 2010, 01:18 PM
Maybe his pajamas have belt loops.:D

The more I shoot shotguns, the more I hate pumps. Repeaters in general are the most problematic shotguns. The OP notwithstanding, I might choose a SxS myself, but only a top-quality one with a single mechanical trigger (no inertia!) and auto ejectors. I don't know of any such animal on the market today, so I'm back to a pump.

I don't know if they still make them, or clones of them, but I'm sure you could find an old Fox (Savage) BSE Model H. I have a 20 gauge version, and it seems to meet those requirements. And it's quite hardy. Your only problem would be that all of them that I've seen have long barrels.

tominct
January 23, 2010, 02:00 PM
I'll likely get flamed for this, but anyway... Let me state up front that I KNOW this is a training issue, not an equipment problem.
Almost all of my shooting is done with semi-auto pistols and rifles. I've gotten used to just pulling the trigger for the next shot. Several times, while hunting, I've simply forgotten to rack the forearm on my M500 for a second shot, and missed the bird because of that. (For some odd reason, when shooting a bolt rifle, I have no problems with cycling the bolt.)

Enter the Fox BST 20 gauge, 18 1/2" barrels and single trigger. Picked it up on a whim one day, and I like the way it points and handles. Most importantly, in a HD situation, I know that I can get off 2 quick shots without consciously working the action.
I'd prefer it to have external hammers, but for me it works.

Backed up by a 1911.

NMGonzo
January 23, 2010, 03:31 PM
Almost all of my shooting is done with semi-auto pistols and rifles.

My Mosin broke!

Oh ... (cycle) ... nevermind.

Balog
January 23, 2010, 03:31 PM
What advantage does a pump have over a SxS? Capacity. That's it. If capacity is all you care about, a Saiga is the only legitimate choice. Yet no one ever insults the people who chose pumps, despite their lower capacity. Why is that, do you think?

Different mission profiles call for different weapons. Beat cops don't carry the same weapons as SWAT. Regular grunts don't carry the same weapons as special forces. Home owners don't carry the same weapons as any of the above. I fail to see why this is a difficult concept.

This is simply not an intellectually honest thread anymore IMO.

"Anyone who disagrees with me is intellectually dishonest." :rolleyes:

Al LaVodka
January 23, 2010, 08:50 PM
What advantage does a pump have over a SxS? Capacity. That's it. If capacity is all you care about, a Saiga is the only legitimate choice. Yet no one ever insults the people who chose pumps, despite their lower capacity. Why is that, do you think?

Different mission profiles call for different weapons. Beat cops don't carry the same weapons as SWAT. Regular grunts don't carry the same weapons as special forces. Home owners don't carry the same weapons as any of the above. I fail to see why this is a difficult concept.



"Anyone who disagrees with me is intellectually dishonest." :rolleyes:

I'm not insulting anyone, however, opinions are not facts, and as good a job as you've done intentionally or unintentionally confusing the two, I won't ignore the misinformation. I'll use your own slight-of-hand example of the problem that's developed here: you're ignoring the question of the thread and building some moral equivalence or even superiority to relying on an obsolete action, and, you've got a built-into-your-response-but-undisclosed assumption that the sxs is the optimal choice for ANYthing! This is only true if the, um, "mission profile" :rolleyes: is for the SASS or a 19th C. re-enactment (where such 20th C. Hollywood/GW1&2 cliched terms are not used). One may choose to ignore that but the facts are that almost everybody uses pump-action shotguns for almost all defense applications the world over, from Main St. to the Company Street, for assorted reasons and that, comparatively, almost no-one uses sxs' primarily for anything except the occassional niche hunt. These are not debateable. Odd decision making and unrealistic posts are.

So, apparently there are some difficult concepts here and I hope I've been of some assistance in sorting them out.

Al

PS: With the hope of not starting a ComBlock defensive dialogue, people who choose a pump-action over a Saiga are not criticized because the skeptic would look even sillier than people who choose sxs shotguns for HD. People choose reliable pump-actions when it really counts...

Balog
January 23, 2010, 09:09 PM
You may believe that the extra magzine capacity of a pump is more important that being shorter, lighter weight, operable one handed, redundancy in case of mechanical failure etc but it is wildly intellectually dishonest to pretend like your criteria is the only valid one.

Milkmaster
January 23, 2010, 09:42 PM
Sounds like it has been beaten to death...I'm outa here.

BullfrogKen
January 24, 2010, 02:53 PM
They DO have pump-shotguns (and even semi-autos) and so you are implying civilians don't need 'em. That we should be content with less. Relegated to mere civilian status and intimating we should know our place. Whose side are you on? Gonna ban private ownership of pump-actions next!?

Do you think the local police are usually doing a whole lot more than YOU might need to do at home in the worst cases? I would argue that we, citizens, have to be able to do a whole lot more than them. From defending one's own person and family's lives real-time, the most basic natural right, to defending our nation. Police do neither! How do you know what people may have to do in defense of their home and hearth, and why would you take a position that they should arm themselves for the least intensive encounter? This is so misguided. Let's have no more red-herrings please launched by a disingenuous poster.


Al, back off on the personal attacks, buddy.


If you have a disagreement over opinion, fine. Disagree over opinion. Insinuating someone who disagrees with your opinion is a gun-grabber is not fine.

No one even mildly suggested anything about relegating certain classes of firearms as exclusive to policing or military agencies. There was no need to throw that attack into your argument.


Behave.

MCgunner
January 24, 2010, 03:56 PM
A study in how to fubar a discussion of the pros and cons of this platform or that. :rolleyes:


The more I shoot shotguns, the more I hate pumps. Repeaters in general are the most problematic shotguns. The OP notwithstanding, I might choose a SxS myself, but only a top-quality one with a single mechanical trigger (no inertia!) and auto ejectors. I don't know of any such animal on the market today, so I'm back to a pump.

I was lookin' at Academy's site the other day and noticed the new Yildiz SxS has a selective single trigger and automatic ejectors. the trigger is probably inertial, though. I thought to myself....HMMMMMM. LOL! But, really, for field, I've always preferred double triggers and am quite used to 'em and I like the extractors because I pocket my empties when I'm at my buddy's hunting dove. His dad does not like empties on the ground, says the cows will eat 'em. But, ejectors would be desirable in a defensive situation and you can, after all, hold your hand over the breech so that the empties don't shoot out of the gun, for hunting. But, I have two NY reloads by the bed, generally, so if I find myself needed more rounds, highly doubtful, I do have options.

That Yildiz would be fun, but really, I don't need to be buying another shotgun, let alone another SxS. LOL! I don't have an O/U, yet, but I was kinda waitin' on that one for my financial situation to get better so I could buy something from Browning or Ruger or something in that higher price category. Until then, I really need to stick with what I've got, LOL.

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