Are HK pistols worth the money?


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Full Metal Jacket
January 17, 2010, 07:47 PM
this is not a question of their quality, but rather do you think their production costs and quality warrant their price.

i voted no.

the reason being is polymer is MUCH cheaper to manufacture than steel, however HK does not pass the savings on to the customer. seems much of what you pay for is the "HK" stamped on the slide.

and yes, i know glocks only cost $75 to produce, but they also don't charge a grand for their pistols...

i think HK's are great guns, just way overpriced.

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Pilot
January 17, 2010, 07:57 PM
Production cost is not the driver in this scenario it is what the market is willing to pay. Real or not, HK products have a perception of quality and command a premium in the market place.

The three HK's I have, P7M8, P7 PSP and USP Tactical .45 have all been excellent performers and somewhat unique, so I think they are worth the money. Not a huge polymer fan either. The USP Tactical is the only polymer pistol I own.

Full Metal Jacket
January 17, 2010, 08:00 PM
^^^good point.


however, i think HK's prices has kept them from more of the LE market, and civilian for that matter.

oneounceload
January 17, 2010, 08:02 PM
There are more costs than raw materials that set the retail price. Besides what the market is willing to pay, other factors consist of engineering, marketing, inventory carrying costs, logistics, debt service, etc.

Full Metal Jacket
January 17, 2010, 08:06 PM
^^^same as every product manufacturer on earth.

the topic is if HK's are worth the price.

481
January 17, 2010, 08:07 PM
Yep.

Every penny.

atblis
January 17, 2010, 08:11 PM
There's this funny thing about people and selling stuff to them. If you price something too low, people will assume it's cheaply made, and not buy it. Price it high, and many people will convince themselves it's better and buy it.

HK should take whatever they can get. More power to them.

Boats
January 17, 2010, 08:18 PM
They are certainly in the business of taking people.

DanielW
January 17, 2010, 10:04 PM
I got a HK P7 PSP that I paid $500 for and a HK45 that I paid $900 for. Both were worth the money to me.

gbelleh
January 17, 2010, 10:10 PM
I voted yes. Marketing theories aside, every HK I've ever owned has been a high quality, accurate, reliable machine right from the box. The quality, reliability and durability I've received have definitely been worth the prices paid.

Kingofthehill
January 17, 2010, 10:11 PM
Their classic stuff... Yes...

Their modern Polymer stuff? Nope... way overpriced. Ive owned a few as well as all the other big name heavy hitters and i don't see the extra 400-600 dollars of quality.

And crap, every gun I own I make sure i have quite a few spare mags and these things are $70+ per mag!.. thats just ubsurd.

You want to charge more for a gun? fine... but WHY should their magazine cost easily 3x as much as an XD mag? Glock? or M&P mag?... this is just because they can stick it to the people that buy them.

JOe

oneounceload
January 17, 2010, 10:14 PM
same as every product manufacturer on earth.

the topic is if HK's are worth the price.

except that most folks here do not seem to have that insight or knowledge - they seem to think that if a maker pays X for parts that X plus 10% should be sufficient and anything more than that is a ripoff....

H&K obviously does not agree........nor do I....H&K, especially P7s are worth the price charged

Kingofthehill
January 17, 2010, 10:14 PM
I guess if your gun can shoot bullets backwards they are worth it, LOL

http://i47.tinypic.com/2vjvj46.jpg

smoothdraw
January 17, 2010, 10:23 PM
They are a bit overpriced but i will buy them if i really want them because it is one of the DA/SA gun that fits to my hand when in SA mode. I really want a glock but i have small hands and usually can't hold properly double stacked pistol grips including glock.

Used market price is also very good for H&K's. Yeah they are expensive guns but they are reliable and have good parts. Customer service is okay specially for us here living in Georgia. We'll glock CS is also good because they are also here in Atlanta.

They are also good looking tacti-cool guns. They have active safety levers. And they have LEM trigger available (one of the sweetest double action trigger feel).

For practical people i think HK's are not worth the money but for those who have specific wants/features on a gun that H&K got then H&K is worth the money.

sammy
January 18, 2010, 12:38 AM
I have 2 HK's in the safe. A P2000 V3 in 9mm and a USP Expert in .45acp. Between the two I have about 4000 rounds through them. I have not had a failure in either of them. That is a huge plus for me but I almost never shoot them. The biggest gripe is the long reset. It makes them very difficult to shoot fast. The double action on the P2000 is awful but with practice I manage to keep it in the black at 15 yards. They are great pistols but I would not buy them if I could do it over.

19-3Ben
January 18, 2010, 01:10 AM
Not to ME. Perhaps to some, but let's face it. I'm not going to shoot a $900 H&K any better than I shoot my $500 M&P. That's all that matters to me. The M&P is as reliable, and as accurate as an H&K in my hands.

For others, that's up to them.

SideArmed
January 18, 2010, 01:20 AM
High priced but not over priced IMO.

If there were problems with these pistols that would be one thing, but it's hard to argue when all the HK's I have shot have been 100% reliable and accurate.
800 for a USP? Why not

jigglyjames29
January 18, 2010, 01:32 AM
I just shot an HK45 for the first time a few days ago.
To me, YES! They're definitely worth the money. If I had $900 to spend right now, I'd get a P30L.

Taurus_9mm
January 18, 2010, 01:33 AM
Not to me, although I'd have no qualms paying $450 - $550 if I found one used in good condition.

GlockFan
January 18, 2010, 01:49 AM
I'll find out tomorrow when i pick up my CDNN P7!

Kangspec
January 18, 2010, 03:06 AM
I own P30L. yes i paid a lot compare to others.

But, i do not regret a bit.

btw: anyone know what kind rug/bad is on that front page?

legion3
January 18, 2010, 06:25 AM
Used Prices Yes
New Prices No

possum
January 18, 2010, 06:41 AM
what i want in a gun is ultimate 100% reliabilty. as well as accuracy and shootability. i can get that in a glock and or an xd for alot cheaper that i can an h&k to me they are both very capable guns. i am all about value, i don't buy a name, i buy what i know works. to me they are not worth the high price tag, if money was no thing than yes i might have one but other than that i am just fine with other equally capable and less expensive alternatives.

ATBackPackin
January 18, 2010, 06:58 AM
I guess if your gun can shoot bullets backwards they are worth it, LOL

That is absolutely priceless!:uhoh:

Where did you find that?

Highland Ranger
January 18, 2010, 08:32 AM
That's an old marketing pic from a few years back. I believe it was the cover of their catalog. Apparently they hired a photographer who wasn't a shooter.

HK's are expensive . . . . but somehow there are very few threads about trips back to the factory for function or finish issues, kabooms and the like.

I have several flavors of USP - worth the $$$$.

usp9
January 18, 2010, 09:59 AM
I voted Yes...Oh yes.

the reason being is polymer is MUCH cheaper to manufacture than steel, however HK does not pass the savings on to the customer. seems much of what you pay for is the "HK" stamped on the slide.

So, what you are saying is;

The huge variety HK offers is worth nothing
The highest quality materials count for nothing
The manufacturing processes, machining and finishing are cost free
Innovation just happens

Question...would the Glock exist without the HK? I wonder.

...and yes, i know glocks only cost $75 to produce

The question then is; why are Glocks so expensive?

benderx4
January 18, 2010, 10:01 AM
They are no more expensive than Sigs or a decent 1911, yet they are always under this monetary scrutiny, what's up with that? When it comes to firearms, it's a serious business and I only purchase the best. (HK, Beretta, Colt revolvers) If you're on a budget, get yourself a Taurus.

Pilot
January 18, 2010, 10:04 AM
I think many of these posts are similar to those who bash Mercedes and BMW.

If you can't afford one, don't buy it. Period.

Mp7
January 18, 2010, 10:18 AM
ive shot a USP .. and would love to try the P7!

call me biased, but like with a used car ... if id be in
the market for a used handgun ... HK and SIG
would be on top of the list ....
So would Mercedes, Volkswagen AND Toyota.

HK is mercedes.
Glock is like the urban-city-mini.

android
January 18, 2010, 10:43 AM
Another thing to consider is that I can buy an HK and it is completely ambidextrous right out of the box, nothing else to buy. I'm a lefty and I can shoot it with either hand, and my wife can shoot it right handed. Most other brands are right handed or require mods to be ambi or left handed.

If you haven't owned one, you really shouldn't be allowed to vote in this poll.

A more accurate poll would be:

* owned and think they're worth it.
* owned and don't think they're worth it.
* never owned one, but think they might be worth it.
* never owned one, but think they're too expensive.

BlayGlock
January 18, 2010, 10:52 AM
what i want in a gun is ultimate 100% reliabilty. as well as accuracy and shootability. i can get that in a glock and or an xd for alot cheaper that i can an h&k to me they are both very capable guns.

Ill second that possum. Nothing wrong with an HK, I mean you dont see Jack Baeur using a Glock. But for the money, I can get two Glocks, M&Ps, ect.

NinjaFeint
January 18, 2010, 11:16 AM
Ill second that possum. Nothing wrong with an HK, I mean you dont see Jack Baeur using a Glock. But for the money, I can get two Glocks, M&Ps, ect.
I don't see Jack Bauer do anything because I think that show is terrible. Also, HK's are overpriced, none that I have shot seem worth the extra money over other pistols in the $500 range.

vaupet
January 18, 2010, 11:52 AM
To me, every penny of them
first you have accuracy: excellent
then handling: very nice
materials and production quality: no compromise there, look at the testing done for the mk23 by the special forces , so part of the price is already explained and will perform in life-expectatncy (30000 rnds without a single faillure)

and then you argue over 200 $ on a 20 year investment, when you pay sevarl hundreds on ammo or fuel for your car. If you care for quality, it will be worth the little extra money.
My most expensive rifle is a Walther LG300 XT and my most expensive handgun is a Steyer LP10

zhyla
January 18, 2010, 11:56 AM
If you haven't owned one, you really shouldn't be allowed to vote in this poll.

A more accurate poll would be:

* owned and think they're worth it.
* owned and don't think they're worth it.
* never owned one, but think they might be worth it.
* never owned one, but think they're too expensive.

This is not a bad idea... Android, why don't you start a new poll?

For a full-sized combat pistol I prefer the ergonomics of the USP. I've never regretted what I paid for it new. I've got other pistols but this is the one I would want to depend on.

I think there are two kinds of gun owners. Some of us buy enough guns for protection and maybe a couple fun ones for plinking. Some others are really more into collecting (the guys who own more Glocks than you knew Glock made, for example). A safe full of HK pistols is really cost prohibitive compared to, say, Glocks. For these kinds of people to bitch and moan about prices is just silly.

Hatterasguy
January 18, 2010, 12:01 PM
I don't think they are that much more expensive than Sig's or 1911's. Heck guys pay $2k-$3k+ for 1911's all the time.


I think HK makes great guns. My problem with HK is about their long guns. They pretty much flip off the civilian market, and don't even make the slightest effort to sell anything interesting. Want a G36 good luck. Want a PSG1, MP5, G3? Cough up tons money. When is the civilian 416/417 coming out? I'm guessing never on that, or if they do, they will ship like 1k, end production, and the prices will go sky high.

I'd like HK if they actualy gave a damn about the civilian market and made the smallest effort to actualy sell the stuff we want to buy. So far all they have done is sue GSG for making the MP5, which sold like crazy because people want them.

Highland Ranger
January 18, 2010, 02:15 PM
They are no more expensive than Sigs or a decent 1911, yet they are always under this monetary scrutiny, what's up with that?

Perhaps someone more schooled can cite the specifics - - I believe the bias is because HK is perceived as catering to the military / LEO market, with selling to civilians a seeming after thought or perhaps necessary evil.

If true, it could be some of that European anti-gun mentality, or whatever the German culture has become post WWII.

In my experience with their customer service people, NOT true.

Highland Ranger
January 18, 2010, 02:16 PM
(looks like someone posted an example while I was typing!)

Starcheck55
January 18, 2010, 03:45 PM
the initial investment in a gun pales in comparison to the price of feeding it over the years. I currently own an HK and when my finances allow for it I'll own others. Same goes for other manufacturers that I hold in high regard. (read: not taurus)

Ala Dan
January 18, 2010, 04:39 PM
"no compromise is true"



imho, way overly priced~! ;)

*previous owner of a full size .45 caliber H&K USP

col_tapiocca
January 18, 2010, 04:48 PM
I don't buy anything made in Germany. Neither guns or cars.
They are overpriced and not worth the money.
I'm fan of French car and Swiss and Austrian made guns.

RX-178
January 18, 2010, 04:51 PM
I went with HK partly because of their reputation for quality, mostly because there were very slim pickings on weapons that met my preferences, and HK was one of them.

What I wanted was:

.45 ACP caliber.

1911 style frame safety. Didn't want a slide safety or a decocker-only gun.

A good single action trigger pull by my own subjective definition.

Over 10 round magazine capacity (in retrospect, I probably could have reconsidered that, but at the time I was looking for my first carry weapon I'd be DARNED if I was going to buy a handgun with an AWB compliant magazine capacity!)

Polymer frame. I had considered a Para Ordnance, but that unyielding steel frame and the thickness of the grip was absolutely unforgiving against my hands when I tried it.



On those criteria alone, I was down to either the HK or a 2011. HK was actually more affordable, and since I wanted a nice crisp trigger, I went with the Tactical model with the match trigger, and it is as nice as I can imagine anything coming straight out of the box can be.

Now I am not an HK supporter. I am as frustrated with their 'you suck and we hate you' attitude as anyone else. I do not intend to support that company with my money by buying more and more HK products just to say I have them.

But when I bought the USP Tactical, I was buying a weapon that I intended to use to defend my life if needed. I put pro-gun-anti-gun company politics completely out of my mind at that point.

I don't know if that covers my take on the poll. I did vote 'yes' because it was certainly worth the money to me.

Dobe
January 18, 2010, 05:11 PM
I would have to say they are worth the money, although not every HK I own has been flawlessly reliable.

doc540
January 18, 2010, 05:25 PM
I've owned seveal HK pistols.

Their controls and ergonomics fit my hands perfectly and logically.

I never "overpaid" for any of them.

And I easily sold all of them at a premium.

I like 'em.

DanielW
January 18, 2010, 05:35 PM
Why is the HK so much more expensive than a Glock or an XD or an M&P??? You can have two of those for the price of one HK.....


Why are Glocks, XDs, M&Ps, so much more expensive than a Hi-Point??? You can have two Hi-Points for the price of one Glock, XD, or M&P....

leadcounsel
January 18, 2010, 05:38 PM
I rarely see anyone shooting an HK pistol, and of all the gun owners I personally know, I only know of 1 that owns one.

What does HK have to offer at $800 that Sig doesn't offer at $700 or that Glock, S&W, Springfield XD, CZ, etc don't offer at $500-600. HK offers nothing.

They would be better off, IMO, opening the market to the masses by dropping their prices to compete with the others.

Coltman 77
January 18, 2010, 06:39 PM
Without a doubt H&K pistols are absolutely worth the price. :D

I've been shooting since the early 1970's and have collected many fine pistols.

My first pistol was a MK IV Series 70 Colt Govt. Model purchased in 1978 when I was 21 years old, so that should give you some insight into my mindset and experience.

After buying and shooting various pistols over these last 30 years, I've come to believe that HK is the direction that I want to go with my future purchases.

I own BHP's, 1911's, Beretta 92's, Sig 220, 226, PPS, M&P's, etc. Well, you get the picture.

Do HK pistols cost more than some? Yes, of course they do. Take a hard look at the German over engineered design, testing and quality. It's just top quality.

Am I looking for a "good deal" or "bargain" to possibly defend my life or my family's life with?

No.

I'll be thrifty with some purchases -- but not firearms. YMMV.

As vaupet stated very well in his earlier post :

"To me, every penny of them
first you have accuracy: excellent
then handling: very nice
materials and production quality: no compromise there, look at the testing done for the mk23 by the special forces , so part of the price is already explained and will perform in life-expectatncy (30000 rnds without a single faillure)

and then you argue over 200 $ on a 20 year investment, when you pay sevarl hundreds on ammo or fuel for your car. If you care for quality, it will be worth the little extra money."

Here's a pic of my Christmas present, an HK P30 L. :Dhttp://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo220/cashbailey_photos/DSCN1084.jpg

DSAPT9
January 18, 2010, 07:15 PM
I like them and I have owned several but I have not found anything so special to warrant the price they want for them. So I sold them and bought other brands and ammo with the money. I guess it is a personal choice.

ironduke
January 18, 2010, 08:56 PM
They are not really that expensive. Last year I paid $800 for a SIG P229 .40S&W and will gladly pay $900 in a few weeks for a HK USP Compact .45ACP.

Jed Carter
January 18, 2010, 09:23 PM
Just a guess but most of the NO voters do not own an H&K pistol, I vote yes, they shoot great and are very reliable. There are better "range" pistols, like a well tuned 1911, but when it absolutely positively has to go bang, again and again...H&K or SIG.

johnrobe
January 18, 2010, 09:24 PM
I prefer the ergonomics of my HK USP Compact to any other semi-auto I've fired (a personal issue, but there it is), and the the fit/finish is second to none. That said, I do think they are overpriced by maybe $100-$150, but IMO the level of quality is such that they deserve to be at a higher price point than Glocks, XD's, etc.

FWIW, I've fired Springfields, Glocks, Berettas, Rugers, CZs and of course the HK.

StarDust1
January 18, 2010, 10:02 PM
Interesting poll, I've owned the H&K .45 auto, the new one that they intended for the joint service pistol trials.
It was a very problematic pistol, it's fit & finish were not emblematic of a $1,000.00 High end German firearm. Mine had a groove notched into the trigger guard, this to accomadate the trigger itself, problem was that under recoil it tended to pinch your trigger finger severely as on the reset your finger would be caught up between the two!

It was the most difficult auto I've ever owned to take down, a real PIA, I won't go into the details, it should suffice that if any of you own one you'll know just what I'm talking of, it was just ergonomically odd enough to prevent proper grasping for removal of the slide catch.

The pistol came with three grip inserts, none of which fit the pistol buttstock snugly, in fact they would shake about if you gently shook the pistol, further they would shift in your grip under recoil, which combined with the trigger groove, rendered my particular specimen very uncomfortable to fire, especially rapid fire!

Another thing that greatly annoyed me were the magazine feed lips, they were sharp, sharp enough to cut you if you weren't careful loading them. I was even able to get them to slice paper(like a pocket knife).

I obviously received a poor representation of the H&K work ethic, the proverbial "one that slipped" by if you will! However the worst was to come from the fine folks at H&K CS who were alarmingly nonchalant about the my whole experience, though they readily acknowleged the issue with the trigger groove being an issue that they were quite familiar with!

Everybody can churn out a bad one, however in this instance the pistol was so utterly unacceptable, with serious problems that were so clearly related to it's frame design that I found it profoundly overpriced and overrated....

mnhntr
January 18, 2010, 10:10 PM
Yes they are, and anyone who says they are not, has never owned one. I have a USPc in 357 sig and it is my only plastic gun. I have owned and shot many of these types of pistols and the only one I have hung onto is my HK.

RobMoore
January 18, 2010, 10:21 PM
Nothing about an H&K makes me want to spend 50-100% more than their competitor's price.

So I voted no. A person who spends more should get something for their money beyond the name on the side.


Also, I don't think having owned one or not is the question. "Have you had enough time behind it to offer an educated answer?" is the better question. I don't buy pistols I've never tried before, that would be foolish (unless it was cheap enough not to matter, which HKs aren't)

Kingofthehill
January 18, 2010, 10:24 PM
Yes they are, and anyone who says they are not, has never owned one. I have a USPc in 357 sig and it is my only plastic gun. I have owned and shot many of these types of pistols and the only one I have hung onto is my HK.

I have owned a couple... Their overpriced in my opinion. I got good deals in the used market. New their ridiculous for something they just popped out of a mold.

RobMoore
January 18, 2010, 10:30 PM
Their used prices are good? I haven't seen if they're any better than their used competitors. I should go over to gunbroker, and check the prices over there.

smoothdraw
January 18, 2010, 10:33 PM
My 1st weapon is a USP c. Beautiful tacti-cool gun. They are good deal in the used market. Paying full price.??? Too far from Glock.

Kingofthehill
January 18, 2010, 10:33 PM
Basically a used HK will get into the ballpark of a new [insert brand here].. 500-600bux on certain models.

JOe

Prion
January 18, 2010, 10:40 PM
If an HK is the gun you want and you shoot a lot it's worth it. Get the gun you really want, shoot it a lot, love it, keep it for years on end. They are reliable, durable, and accurate. More so than an M&P? I don't know, I own both and like them both a lot. The HK is worth it, my M&P's are just bargains! My Sig was even more costly but I'm just as happy to pay the asking price. Value is in the eye of the beholder.

TAG2501
January 18, 2010, 10:54 PM
pretty much depends on how much and how hard you shoot it. Sort of like the auto comparison:

transportation appliance: toyota *stone reliable, good features, fit and finish
drivers car: BMW *driving performance, have to experience it to know, and want it to appreciate it

oneounceload
January 18, 2010, 10:54 PM
Just a guess but most of the NO voters do not own an H&K pistol

AND have never fired one, I would add to that statement - sounds more like yet another case of wealth envy by folks who can't afford them so they wonder why anyone would spend more that they would for a quality item - doesn't matter if it is guns, watches, cars, etc......

I see it all the time with the shotgun folks who think that anything except a 870 OR 500 is a waste and they can't understand what it's like to handle and shoot a fine double

RobMoore
January 18, 2010, 11:11 PM
For every person who meets that criteria, there is one of the opposite type who bought the HK just because it was more expensive and had some implied elite status.

NMGonzo
January 18, 2010, 11:23 PM
I traded a Glock 35 straight for P2000SK

both shot, carried, and cared for equally.

i was looking for something smaller and he was looking for something bigger.

we both won.

for the money he paid for his HK he got something he wanted.

for the price of the glock i got something I wanted.

after shooting it for a few hundred rounds, I have to say that it is a nice carry piece and i would not mind a bit buying another hk

f4t9r
January 18, 2010, 11:38 PM
The two HK's I have had were no more then a Sig. Both have been very good.
Worth the money compared to others I would say yes !!

gunnutery
January 19, 2010, 12:40 AM
I voted "no" because it's not worth it to ME. However, if someone is willing to pay that price tag for the HK, then more power to them, it must be worth it to them.

HorseSoldier
January 19, 2010, 01:50 AM
They don't do anything a Glock can't do. Both companies are building their stuff with expensive, Western European labor. The USP (and derivatives) lockwork may be a little bit more expensive to produce than the Glock's striker fired system, but nowhere near enough to account for the price differential between the two.

My conclusion -- they're overpriced and not all that exciting.

Onesiphorus
January 19, 2010, 01:56 AM
If you trade them in for a Glock, XD or Sig you can usually do pretty well. I've owned 3 HK's and didn't like an of them. IMO they are highly overrated.

Sapper771
January 19, 2010, 06:18 AM
I voted yes, but the only H&K that I own currently is my P7 and it was worth every cent.

If we were to speak only of the polymer framed pistols, I would have to vote no. I have owned a USP 45 and a USP 45 Tactical. They were reliable and accurate shooters , but my Glock 21 could do everything they could and for under half the price.

Full Metal Jacket
January 24, 2010, 09:06 PM
well, the no's have it...

REAPER4206969
January 24, 2010, 09:42 PM
well, the no's have it...
http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/hk_logosmall.jpg
In a world of compromise, some don't.
http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/hk_usp.jpg

Full Metal Jacket
January 24, 2010, 09:47 PM
LMAO

hogshead
January 24, 2010, 09:55 PM
No and I owned usp 45 to big and clunky feeling. However I had no trouble selling it.
HK Because you suck and we hate you! Just had to do it.

Bentonville
January 24, 2010, 10:28 PM
Have many. Every penny.

Ky Larry
January 24, 2010, 11:40 PM
I have a Kimber Custom Defender II and have had a street reliability job done on it.Total cost of pistol, Crimson Trace Laser Grips, custom work, and Aker leather was $1400.00. A female police officer asked me if it was worth the money. I told her my a$$ was worth $1400.00 so,yes, it was worth it to me. If you H&K shooters thrust your a$$ to this brand, then yes, they are worth every penny. :)

LancerMW
January 25, 2010, 12:07 AM
i own a P7PSP and enjoy it, that being said, their guns are way overpriced, i shoot cheaper guns just as good or better

CPshooter
January 25, 2010, 12:48 AM
Gosh...

It's annoying to see these poll results so far, because I am certain that 99% of the people who voted NO either can't afford one, or simply don't believe in spending over $500 for ANY pistol.

Just haters IMO.

H&K pistols are most-definitely worth the money. Some may want me to "prove it," but I can say with absolute confidence that they make the most rock-solid, reliable pistols on the market today. Their quality control standards are so far beyond what other companies can achieve these days. I bet they have fewer lemons leave the factory than any other handgun manufacturer out there.

They are truly engineering marvels if you ask me. I have put thousands of rounds through mine without a single hiccup. They will shoot perfectly straight out of the box without any cleaning/lubing. I can't say the same for a brand new Glock 19 that was unreliable for me. Or my brothers Glock 26, or my XD45 that experienced FTF issues for the first 50 rounds or so before it broke in.

How can $800 be too much money for what is probably the best combat pistol being produced today? Is the extra $300 over what a Glock, XD, M&P, etc costs really significant if you plan to shoot the pistol that you plan on defending your life with? $300 will buy you 1000 rounds of .40s&w. If you actually shoot your pistol, 1000 rounds goes by very quickly. If you don't practice with your bargain-priced pistol, what good will it do you in a life or death situation?

I guess I'm just getting tired of the "What can an H&K do that my M&P can't?" type of questions, when there are people out there who feel that a $3000 1911 is worth it. Give me a break people!

If you haven't owned a USP, P2000, P30, HK45/c, etc. you really shouldn't have a say in whether or not H&Ks are over-priced. After literally owning at least one of every other brand's polymer pistol being produced today (including Glock, XD, M&P, Kahr, Walther, and most recently a Sig SP2022), I can say that H&Ks are definitely worth every penny.

And before all the Glock kool-aid drinkers show up to defend their weapon of choice, let's not forget who introduced the first polymer pistol.;) (This was in no way a bash on other guns, but in the end you usuall find out that you get what you pay for!)

NinjaFeint
January 25, 2010, 01:35 AM
Gosh...

It's annoying to see these poll results so far, because I am certain that 99% of the people who voted NO either can't afford one, or simply don't believe in spending over $500 for ANY pistol.

Just haters IMO.

H&K pistols are most-definitely worth the money. Some may want me to "prove it," but I can say with absolute confidence that they make the most rock-solid, reliable pistols on the market today. Their quality control standards are so far beyond what other companies can achieve these days. I bet they have fewer lemons leave the factory than any other handgun manufacturer out there.

They are truly engineering marvels if you ask me. I have put thousands of rounds through mine without a single hiccup. They will shoot perfectly straight out of the box without any cleaning/lubing. I can't say the same for a brand new Glock 19 that was unreliable for me. Or my brothers Glock 26, or my XD45 that experienced FTF issues for the first 50 rounds or so before it broke in.

How can $800 be too much money for what is probably the best combat pistol being produced today? Is the extra $300 over what a Glock, XD, M&P, etc costs really significant if you plan to shoot the pistol that you plan on defending your life with? $300 will buy you 1000 rounds of .40s&w. If you actually shoot your pistol, 1000 rounds goes by very quickly. If you don't practice with your bargain-priced pistol, what good will it do you in a life or death situation?

I guess I'm just getting tired of the "What can an H&K do that my M&P can't?" type of questions, when there are people out there who feel that a $3000 1911 is worth it. Give me a break people!

If you haven't owned a USP, P2000, P30, HK45/c, etc. you really shouldn't have a say in whether or not H&Ks are over-priced. After literally owning at least one of every other brand's polymer pistol being produced today (including Glock, XD, M&P, Kahr, Walther, and most recently a Sig SP2022), I can say that H&Ks are definitely worth every penny.

And before all the Glock kool-aid drinkers show up to defend their weapon of choice, let's not forget who introduced the first polymer pistol.;) (This was in no way a bash on other guns, but in the end you usuall find out that you get what you pay for!)

1. I can afford one. I will probably spend over $500 dollars on a pistol this year, it won't be an HK.

2. You are obviously offended because people don't think your favorite pistol is worth the money.

3. How many rounds do I need to shoot through a USP to decide it's not worth the money? I have shot about 300 total through a friends and don't think it's worth the money.

HorseSoldier
January 25, 2010, 01:49 AM
It's annoying to see these poll results so far, because I am certain that 99% of the people who voted NO either can't afford one, or simply don't believe in spending over $500 for ANY pistol.

Along the way, I've owned a USP9, USP45c and P2000SK, plus having the .mil let me play with these:

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j132/jboschma/041007_13581.jpg?t=1264397304

(And these)

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j132/jboschma/041007_13431.jpg?t=1264397348

(And these too . . .)

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j132/jboschma/110707_10321.jpg?t=1264397386

Of the bunch, the P7 is the only stand out, in my opinion (though the MP5 would also get a mention in the era before rifle caliber carbines replaced made them pretty obsolete).

HK stuff is good, but they don't deliver better reliability or QC than Glock, in my personal experience (and I'm by no means a Glock guy), when it comes to handguns. They do offer more lockwork options than the Glock one-setup-fits-all approach, which can be a strong selling point for some, but also have a higher bore line -- trade offs rather than better/worse.

Full Metal Jacket
January 25, 2010, 02:19 AM
^^^my poll clearly indicates that it pertains to HK pistols only.

Full Metal Jacket
January 25, 2010, 02:27 AM
i still can't believe HK didn't check the ad and see that the ad agency loaded the mag backwards. that's freaking hilarious.

http://i47.tinypic.com/2vjvj46.jpg

SCBradley
January 25, 2010, 02:48 AM
^^^my poll clearly indicates that it pertains to HK pistols only.

And he was speaking to HK pistol quality, with a brief parenthetical sidebar about the MP5.

blue german
January 25, 2010, 03:06 AM
I own two HKs....a VP-70z - THE ORIGINAL POLYMER PISTOL and a P9S ...... and have owned a third (the rare precursor to the P9S - the P9). Both of these pistols were bought for the cost - or less - of a Browning HP when they were bought. No, I've never had a failure to feed or function in any HK. I don't carry either of them though I did carry the VP-70Z for half-a-year many years back 'cause a supervisor did not think I could do it! Boy but he was proved wrong!!!

Nowadays I carry an extremely early Kel-Tec 9mm (from before there was more than one pistol offered - made before they were called P-11). It does the job and is so very easy to conceal.:cuss:

joe_security
January 25, 2010, 06:48 PM
I fired a rented USP .40cal. compact. I loved it. I think its worth the $ if you feel its the best for you. Based on that, I voted yes. I enjoyed it more than my own G22.

zhyla
January 25, 2010, 07:05 PM
I really don't understand why these polls/threads keep popping up. If you don't like HK guns don't buy them.

HGUNHNTR
January 25, 2010, 07:19 PM
Certainly worth it to me. My USP tactical is the most accurate .45 I have ever shot and cost a lot less than a high end 1911.

FranklyTodd
January 25, 2010, 09:26 PM
My guess - 95% of those that have owned an HK said yes, 95% of those that haven't said no...

Full Metal Jacket
January 25, 2010, 10:17 PM
^^^my guess-you're wrong. many people have either owned them, or fired them, and still don't believe this polymer pistol is worth a grand.

SCBradley
January 26, 2010, 01:57 AM
^^^my guess-you're wrong. many people have either owned them, or fired them, and still don't believe this polymer pistol is worth a grand.

Why do you care what other people deem appropriate to spend money on?

Full Metal Jacket
January 26, 2010, 02:02 AM
^^^when did i deem anything appropriate or inappropriate?

i simply started this poll out of curiosity, and voiced my opinion on the matter like everyone else in this thread.

i'm glad if you think it's worth it and you like your HK :)

SCBradley
January 26, 2010, 02:33 AM
I don't own an HK and don't have any plans to. I didn't vote for just those reasons.

Value is subjective, to a point.

badbadtz560
January 26, 2010, 11:44 AM
I always figured the price wasn't in manufacturing the guns themselves but more in the engineering behind them.

there was the usp line, then the p2000 line, then there's the hk45, hk45c, and p30... the thing is that the last three aren't like the previous: they're not all the same gun just changed for caliber.. and how many years has it been? If they keep pumpin out new stuff and still manufacture the old stuff, that can't be cheap.

Then there's all the trigger and safety options.. It's like a custom built gun from the factory in some ways

I'm still waiting for glock to offer another grip option.. It's not the angle that hurts my hand.. it's the huge hump that makes for a bad grip in my hand.. and no I don't wanna shave it down like everyone else... disappointing that the 4th gen got nothing but a different roughness to them

atblis
January 26, 2010, 11:47 AM
Grip is different on the 4th gen. I think they reduced the hump a little because it points a little lower for me (the default grip). Guide rod is different. Looks potentially better. Mag release is also different. Grip texture is different.

So yeah, I guess the only thing they changed is the grip texture.

EdLaver
January 26, 2010, 02:07 PM
I voted yes, I like my USP .40. I actually didn't spend cash on it, I traded with a friend that wanted something of mine that I had no use for. With that being said, the accuracy, function, ergonomics, aesthetics, to me, would warrant buying one if that was the original option. The gun truly has moved up to the elite pistols ring in my collection.

Boats
January 26, 2010, 02:13 PM
Gosh...

It's annoying to see these poll results so far, because I am certain that 99% of the people who voted NO either can't afford one, or simply don't believe in spending over $500 for ANY pistol.

Just haters IMO.

Was that 99% a scientific wild ass guess? There are former owners in this thread, myself counted among them.

H&K pistols are most-definitely worth the money. Some may want me to "prove it," but I can say with absolute confidence that they make the most rock-solid, reliable pistols on the market today. Their quality control standards are so far beyond what other companies can achieve these days. I bet they have fewer lemons leave the factory than any other handgun manufacturer out there.

This is a load of unadulterated manure. Value is subjective, performance is objective. The P7 was removed really early in the XM9 trials for repeated failures. Let's discount the former flagship pistol then and move on to "today." Oddly enough today for H&K is like yesterday for the P7. Engineering claims, laboratory test results, no actual military adoption beyond the borders of Germany, well except for the world famous Irish Defence Forces. H&K has been beaten out in many T&Es before the bid, that is to say based upon performance.

They are truly engineering marvels if you ask me. I have put thousands of rounds through mine without a single hiccup. They will shoot perfectly straight out of the box without any cleaning/lubing. I can't say the same for a brand new Glock 19 that was unreliable for me. Or my brothers Glock 26, or my XD45 that experienced FTF issues for the first 50 rounds or so before it broke in.

Many service pistols have fired "thousands of rounds without a hiccup." Most of them come with better warranty service, after market support, and cost hundreds of dollars less up front too, especially since most of the H&K pistol line up runs just south of $900.00 rather than just north of $800.00 these days.

How can $800 be too much money for what is probably the best combat pistol being produced today?

It is not the best combat pistol produced today by any measure.

Is the extra $300 over what a Glock, XD, M&P, etc costs really significant if you plan to shoot the pistol that you plan on defending your life with?

This is a common refrain of H&K buyers. I have entrusted my life to a Colt Detective Special revolver I acquired for $300. Guess what? It has never failed to fire and never jammed, something I could not claim about my former USP 45c.

$300 will buy you 1000 rounds of .40s&w. If you actually shoot your pistol, 1000 rounds goes by very quickly. If you don't practice with your bargain-priced pistol, what good will it do you in a life or death situation?

I don't get what you were saying here. Someone who saves $300 up front could be, by definition a permanent 1000 rounds of practice ahead of an HK shooter if he spent the money on ammo. Hell, a guy could be really ahead of the H&K owner buy buying a CZ-75B and putting the difference into a Kadet upper for a ton of trigger time using .22lr. There are way more methods out there to skin the cat than the H und K way.

I guess I'm just getting tired of the "What can an H&K do that my M&P can't?" type of questions, when there are people out there who feel that a $3000 1911 is worth it. Give me a break people!

Why should anyone give you a break? You still haven't answered as to what a standard HK pistol can objectively do that a S&W M&P cannot.

As to the $3000.00 1911A1, you have gone into apples and oranges territory. There is objective value in having a hand fitted firearm made by a master gunsmith using only forged and machined small parts that sets it apart from the run of the mill.

That qualitative comparison cannot really account for the difference in price between a HK and its usual Western European competitors. SIG has the same problem to a lesser degree.

If you haven't owned a USP, P2000, P30, HK45/c, etc. you really shouldn't have a say in whether or not H&Ks are over-priced. After literally owning at least one of every other brand's polymer pistol being produced today (including Glock, XD, M&P, Kahr, Walther, and most recently a Sig SP2022), I can say that H&Ks are definitely worth every penny.

And I have owned a USP and found it wanting against a basic Colt Combat Commander which ironically cost me less brand new. Since owning that HK I have also come to regard the Beretta PX-4, the M&P, and the XD to be just as good poly guns, but for a lot less scratch. If Glocks weren't so misshapen in the grip I'd have them right there too.

And before all the Glock kool-aid drinkers show up to defend their weapon of choice, let's not forget who introduced the first polymer pistol. (This was in no way a bash on other guns, but in the end you usuall find out that you get what you pay for!)

If you ever even dry fired a VP-70, you'd know two things. First, why it was a dismal market failure. Two, that there is a rich HK tradition of making sucktastic trigger pulls a "standard feature."

I am almost convinced that HK engineers are not shooters. So, I do not think one gets what one pays for if one thinks they are paying a premium for increased objective performance.

HGUNHNTR
January 26, 2010, 03:00 PM
I don't mind paying a premium for HK type quality. I have owned enough junk in my life to appreciate superb quality I don't mind paying extra for it.

Also, HK's are just plain cool :)

Guillermo
January 26, 2010, 03:20 PM
HK's are very well designed and constructed

They are a premium firearm at a premium price.

My guess is that the votes for "not worth it" come from folks that do not see the reason for paying more when you can buy a very good gun, just as accurate and dependable, for less.

While I understand why one makes that decision I have never felt good after "saving money" on a tool or a gun. Spend the extra and get what you want and you will rarely regret it.

His
January 26, 2010, 03:20 PM
My brother has an HK and I really Like it. However, I haven't bought one because I don't want a firearm I can't take completely apart and put back together in a reasonable amount of time.

HGUNHNTR
January 26, 2010, 03:26 PM
^ Disassembling an HK USP takes less than 10 seconds for a newbie, and less than 3 if you do it with any regularity.

1. Remove slide stop
2. Remove slide, captured spring, and bbl.
3. Done.

BushyGuy
January 26, 2010, 03:29 PM
i rather buy a SIG then a HK they are better pistols for their money, but i am a Ruger Fan so i rather buy Ruger pistols.

Full Metal Jacket
January 26, 2010, 03:45 PM
^ Disassembling an HK USP takes less than 10 seconds for a newbie, and less than 3 if you do it with any regularity.

1. Remove slide stop
2. Remove slide, captured spring, and bbl.
3. Done.

he's referring to disassembly, not takedown.

StarDust1
January 26, 2010, 03:49 PM
Gosh...

It's annoying to see these poll results so far, because I am certain that 99% of the people who voted NO either can't afford one, or simply don't believe in spending over $500 for ANY pistol.

Just haters IMO.

H&K pistols are most-definitely worth the money. Some may want me to "prove it," but I can say with absolute confidence that they make the most rock-solid, reliable pistols on the market today. Their quality control standards are so far beyond what other companies can achieve these days. I bet they have fewer lemons leave the factory than any other handgun manufacturer out there.

They are truly engineering marvels if you ask me. I have put thousands of rounds through mine without a single hiccup. They will shoot perfectly straight out of the box without any cleaning/lubing. I can't say the same for a brand new Glock 19 that was unreliable for me. Or my brothers Glock 26, or my XD45 that experienced FTF issues for the first 50 rounds or so before it broke in.

How can $800 be too much money for what is probably the best combat pistol being produced today? Is the extra $300 over what a Glock, XD, M&P, etc costs really significant if you plan to shoot the pistol that you plan on defending your life with? $300 will buy you 1000 rounds of .40s&w. If you actually shoot your pistol, 1000 rounds goes by very quickly. If you don't practice with your bargain-priced pistol, what good will it do you in a life or death situation?

I guess I'm just getting tired of the "What can an H&K do that my M&P can't?" type of questions, when there are people out there who feel that a $3000 1911 is worth it. Give me a break people!

If you haven't owned a USP, P2000, P30, HK45/c, etc. you really shouldn't have a say in whether or not H&Ks are over-priced. After literally owning at least one of every other brand's polymer pistol being produced today (including Glock, XD, M&P, Kahr, Walther, and most recently a Sig SP2022), I can say that H&Ks are definitely worth every penny.

And before all the Glock kool-aid drinkers show up to defend their weapon of choice, let's not forget who introduced the first polymer pistol.;) (This was in no way a bash on other guns, but in the end you usuall find out that you get what you pay for!)
You either didn't read my account, or purposely chose to ignore it...

wojownik
January 26, 2010, 03:58 PM
I am a current HK owner (p7 and 2000). I think HK pistols are generally priced on the priced on the high (premium) side, but then again the US dollar is pretty weak. I don't necessarily think the HK is overpriced, but I think the dollar is undervalued against the Euro, inflating HK prices further.

I am also a current Sig owner (p6, p220, p226, p228, p229). Sigs are also generally priced on the premium side. However Sigs have significant US components - so if you buy the argument that US parts are cheaper than Euro parts these days, then a $800 Sig might be more "expensive" than an $800 HK.

Look at the prices of CZ pistols surging as well - they just had a price increase mainly to adjust for the dollar. Now CZ75s are in the 600 range and up.

So is HK overpriced? IMHO, on the one hand - "no" (not really next to other higher end pistols) - on the other hand "yes" they are all overpriced these days...

StarDust1
January 26, 2010, 04:01 PM
:eek: As indicated in my earlier post I had many issues with this $1,000,00 pistol, the biggest of which was the slow response from H&K in addressing them....

Full Metal Jacket
January 26, 2010, 04:07 PM
^^^looks like the slide is pulling away from the frame near the front. :eek:


most threads i read about HK's cust serv aren't very flattering. did they eventually fix it for you?

481
January 26, 2010, 04:11 PM
This topic got contentious quickly. It's just a poll folks. :)

NWCP
January 26, 2010, 04:25 PM
I own more than my share of HKs. I feel they are well worth the cost and mine at least have been reliable and accurate from day one. Not so much as an FTE. Many HKs are available for well under $1000. My question would be why do so many guys drop the big bucks on custom, or semi custom 1911 clones? At times they cost far more than an HK. I purchase a handgun based on quality of build, track record for reliability, how it fits my hand and my current need. Whether, or not the pistol is worth what you pay for it is pretty subjective. I can't see buying a Glock that doesn't fit my hand well just to save a couple hundred bucks. That's a what I call the K-Mart mentality. While cost comes into the equation, why would a shooter not invest in a weapon that works well, fits well and will last a lifetime? This is also a tool that may, God forbid, be required to save one's own hide in the event something goes terribly wrong and your life is threatened. I have total confidence in my HKs and trust they would do the job that is required in the event I need to use one.

Coltman 77
January 26, 2010, 06:19 PM
Quote by NWCP:

"Whether, or not the pistol is worth what you pay for it is pretty subjective. I can't see buying a Glock that doesn't fit my hand well just to save a couple hundred bucks. That's a what I call a K-Mart mentality. While cost comes into the equation, why would a shooter not invest in a weapon that works well, fits well and will last a lifetime? This is also a tool that may, God forbid, be required to save one's own hide in the event something goes terribly wrong and your life is threatened. I have total confidence in my HKs and trust they would do the job that is required in the event I need to use one."

Very well stated. :D

There are many times to be thrifty but buying firearms for self defense isn't one of them.

doc540
January 26, 2010, 06:49 PM
I've bought several HK's and will buy another.

Ergonomically the design makes sense and the controls fit my hands.

I buy'em used for $500-$600, so, yes, they're worth the money. ;)

Boats
January 26, 2010, 06:51 PM
A memo must come in the box these days:

Welcome to the no compromise world of H und K. You may one day feel the need to defend your purchase of our product against charges of overpayment for a polymer framed handgun. We have included these complimentary guidelines to assist you in our marketing mission. Please note that for even semi prompt warranty assistance you will need to be able to point to public instances that conform to the following points.

You WILL publicly state that you feel the H und K is worth the euros you paid for it, whether you believe it or not.

You WILL criticize custom and near custom 1911A1 production, though these guns have, in many cases, the personal attention of a gunsmith rather than an assembler and not a trace of plastic or stampings and your pistol does not.

You MAY declare that you buy a pistol based upon its track record, but we would understand avoidance of this point as none of our pistols really have a track record outside of our testing facilities.

You WILL declare all of our Western European competition "down market," "cheap," and/or "Worthy only of subhumans who don't care to spend what it takes to defend their worthless lives and those of their midget bovine harlots."

You WILL describe the overspending on our product "an investment." Do not worry, we will pay the royalties to leftist politicians all over the world who re-branded a toxic adjective so that we may avoid being called out on the grounds that our customers pay a hefty "H und K tax."

You WILL blame conversion rates for our prices whether the dollar is up or down. You will ignore that companies like Glock and Beretta have held the line on prices for years despite importing many of their wares into the US.

Please complete your warranty card so that we may contact you in the future with new talking points as required.

HGUNHNTR
January 26, 2010, 07:50 PM
he's referring to disassembly, not takedown

There is no need to take the gun down any further......at least on a regular basis.

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 26, 2010, 08:36 PM
they say that its worth every penny yet you can buy a XD for almost half the price and get the same thing essentially.

StarDust1
January 26, 2010, 08:38 PM
^^^looks like the slide is pulling away from the frame near the front. :eek:


most threads i read about HK's cust serv aren't very flattering. did they eventually fix it for you?
Yes they did, it took them seven months to return the pistol to me! As a consequence they converted the LEM at no charge...If you look closely at the top of the backstrap, where the insert joins the frame, you can make out the seam between frame and insert, something you cannot do with my little M&P 9C which cost "literally" half as much...
My understanding is(correct me if I'm wrong)that H&K has eliminated the trigger guard groove entirely....

wojownik
January 26, 2010, 08:59 PM
Wrong on Beretta, Boats. The Beretta USA factory in Accokeek, Maryland builds them here in the US.

Enachos
January 26, 2010, 09:13 PM
To me they are overpriced. My $500 glock has had no malfunctions to this day so I'll stick with it. I don't see why I would find it reasonable to pay close to a grand for another pistol when this one has performed just as well. If i found and H&K priced at around $500 then i would definitely buy one but otherwise I wouldn't even pay $600 for one.

Boats
January 27, 2010, 02:19 AM
Only the M9/92Fs and the Tomcat are made in Maryland. If you buy a PX-4 or a 90-Two, the whole shebang comes from Italy, magazines and all.

In fact all recent civilian market 92 series pistols are being imported as BUSA fills a huge military contract for the M9 and M9A1.

NWCP
January 27, 2010, 05:43 AM
Welcome to the no compromise world of H und K. You may one day feel the need to defend your purchase of our product against charges of overpayment for a polymer framed handgun. We have included these complimentary guidelines to assist you in our marketing mission. Please note that for even semi prompt warranty assistance you will need to be able to point to public instances that conform to the following points.
You WILL publicly state that you feel the H und K is worth the euros you paid for it, whether you believe it or not.
You WILL criticize custom and near custom 1911A1 production, though these guns have, in many cases, the personal attention of a gunsmith rather than an assembler and not a trace of plastic or stampings and your pistol does not.
You MAY declare that you buy a pistol based upon its track record, but we would understand avoidance of this point as none of our pistols really have a track record outside of our testing facilities.
You WILL declare all of our Western European competition "down market," "cheap," and/or "Worthy only of subhumans who don't care to spend what it takes to defend their worthless lives and those of their midget bovine harlots."
You WILL describe the overspending on our product "an investment." Do not worry, we will pay the royalties to leftist politicians all over the world who re-branded a toxic adjective so that we may avoid being called out on the grounds that our customers pay a hefty "H und K tax."
You WILL blame conversion rates for our prices whether the dollar is up or down. You will ignore that companies like Glock and Beretta have held the line on prices for years despite importing many of their wares into the US.

Please complete your warranty card so that we may contact you in the future with new talking points as required.


Dang Boats, did an old girlfriend run off with an HK rep way back when, or are you allergic to a well made polymer pistol? HK has a history of both police and military action with their pistols, machine pistols and assault rifles as well. :D

Bentonville
January 27, 2010, 06:38 AM
Customer Service from HK is nothing less than exemplary. They are prompt with the turn-around, knowledgeable of the product, and professional in every way. This is based on my long experience with HK. For other testimonials from satisfied customers, do a search on the HKPro handgun forum.

CPshooter
January 28, 2010, 04:03 AM
I'm not going to bother to defend my "subjective" comments. You can try and belittle what other people have to say and call it "subjective" all you want, but are we all not participating in this thread because we have our own opinions and experiences to base our comments off of? Obviously, without buying a very large sample of each kind of gun out there and testing each brand head to head for reliability/durability, one cannot form a completely "objective" argument for or against one particular brand of pistol.

Some of you need to lighten up a little and have a little more fun with these discussions. Don't get mad just because I know (through my personal experiences in owning most of the polymer pistols out there) that H&Ks are worth the premium cost to me. I'm telling you, there's a reason why H&K pistols demand a premium over the competition that goes beyond the cost of raw materials. Does a Porsche require any more material to manufacture than say, a VW? I'm sure if you talked to a Porsche owner, he'd be happy to explain why his Porsche was worth every penny. I could do the same with my H&K pistols, but once again, the "what can a Porsche do that my VW can't" mentality won't allow some of you to absorb the idea that maybe something costs more because it is a better product. Why would BMW sell a 7-series for under $20k when it is a $70k+ ride?

Anyhow, I'd like to share something I came across earlier today while browsing the forums over at HKpro.com. It might be of little or no value to you (perhaps a little “subjective”), but it’s a great example of why I feel these pistols are worth every cent. The thread can be found right here (http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=118256). See post #9. A member wrote the following:
” I have never seen any major component failure!

I shoot a variety of government/military issue HK handguns/rifles at work. Terrible job,
I know. I've worn out three pairs of shooting gloves in two years. We pound the hell out of the guns. I'm talking about shooting HK 45's and P2000's for 3000 round sesions w/o lubrication. I have never seen any major component failure!

After a pistol of rifle fails, it is because of normal wear and tear. Springs loose tension, guns do need to be refurbished. But unlike some other handguns that see firing block breaks, rail cracking, etc., HK has never failed as a testing platform. This is why Insight uses HK products. One of them anyway. HK builds tanks. I have shot over ten thousand rounds through several model guns with no lube, cleaning, or rest, w/o any problems.
We need to shock test each "item" with three thousand rounds, before it hits SOCOM hands in the field. We ship a lot of products. Yes my hands have calluses.
It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it. I am a PATRIOT. I take pride saving lives, and ending the bad guys.

Bottom line, don't worry about your HK breaking. I haven't seen one break in over four years, any model, and over half a million rounds.

This is why I chose HK for my protection of myself and my country. I bet you'll hear the same from everyone here. Other than small...personal upgrades/adjustments, the gun won't let you down. I quoted this a month ago, as a testament to HK. If we are the perfect race....then HK's are the perfect gun.”

2ndamd
January 28, 2010, 05:28 AM
Not just NO! But, Hell NO!!!

They are a good gun but, not great. I liked the USP I was issued. But, I would not put in the category of Sig or even Glock.

SeanMTX
January 28, 2010, 07:27 AM
I own a Glock and an HK (G27 and HK USPc .40). I have owned many, many other pistols.

I like and appreciate most all of what I own or have owned (there's a couple of mistakes here and there).

I bought my Glock from a THR member for $550 (had a number of upgrades) and I bought my HK for $540. Both were used, but the Glock MUCH more so.

For the price, the HK is a better product. Are they worth the premium asked for by the company? It is if you're willing to pay it.

The value of any product is only what the purchaser is willing to pay. No more, no less.

I'd buy another HK if I found a good deal on it....but hey, that's me. Your experience/opinion/intelligence/love of HK/love of other products may vary.

w_houle
January 28, 2010, 07:42 AM
Sure, especially since it retains a lot of it's monetary value:)

Prion
January 28, 2010, 10:07 AM
Yes no yes no yes no yes no yes no yes know yes no yes no yes no yes no. Pointless.

MTMilitiaman
January 28, 2010, 01:15 PM
When I was young and influincial, and cutting my teeth on modern video game consoles with Rainbow Six, I bought the HK jazz. Saved for years, bought a USP Tactical 45 as a 21st birthday present to myself. What a disappointment.

I'll never own another HK at any price. Given the choice, I'd by another Glock at HK prices before I ever bought an HK at Glock prices.

ckone
January 28, 2010, 01:15 PM
An observation: ever notice that more experienced shooters with lots of trigger time with different guns tend to look at H&K's as solid, but nothing special, and from what I've seen usually choose something else do to H&K's notoriosly so-so triggers, complicated detail strip process or pricey mags and such...

On the other side of things, in my experience, H&K's are by far and away most popular with newbs or relativly new shooters who buy the H&K hype and want to be "real operators"...

Just sayin'

Guillermo
January 28, 2010, 04:35 PM
Yes no yes no yes no yes no yes no yes know yes no yes no yes no yes no. Pointless

isn't that what these boards are about?

waterhouse
January 28, 2010, 05:05 PM
In general, I'd probably say no. however:

If I woke up tomorrow and all of my P7s had been stolen, I'd probably pay $1000 for one if that's what the going price was. Since the going price is less than that, I'd say the P7 is worth it to me, but it is my carry gun and I'm super familiar with it, so it has more value to me.

I own and enjoy a USP Tactical. Since I bought it used and it had a threaded barrel (which can cost a few hundred bucks to add to another gun) for my suppressor it was a great value to me. At the time it was one of the few guns from the factory set up for a suppressor, which was handy, I'll give them credit for that. It has been perfectly reliable, and has a decent trigger, but it really isn't all that special. I'll get a 1911 set up for the suppressor at some point and probably sell the Tac. Since it came with the threaded barrel for less than buying just about any other gun and adding a threaded barrel, I'd say it was worth it.

From the current lineup, I personally don't think they are a great value, but they are good, reliable guns and if they fit your hand and you shoot them well they might be the best answer for you.

ETA: I didn't vote in the poll since it was not model specific.

w_houle
January 28, 2010, 08:54 PM
Who's to say that H&K has to equal expensive?
Heckler & Koch P2000SK LEM 357sig w/ Free 40s&w barrel (https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/411535292)
I know, out of stock but it's only $659.00

Full Metal Jacket
January 28, 2010, 10:30 PM
^^^one of my locals has the LEM p2000 357 sig for about that price.

the reason being--the LEM trigger sux. it's like 12 pounds and a mile long pull (plus they've had it in stock for a year and want to rid themselves of it)....

dom1104
January 29, 2010, 07:45 AM
I think that email with the guy bragging about his job is exactly what hk owners buy into.

doc540
January 29, 2010, 12:13 PM
I have no sympathy for those who complain about the "high price" of any gun because they don't know how to avoid paying top-dollar retail for it.

To the vigilant goes the prize. ;)

Full Metal Jacket
January 29, 2010, 03:34 PM
^^^right. everyone pays retail, except you :rolleyes:

Yarddog
January 29, 2010, 07:13 PM
I can't vote one way or the other, I never shot one.
Y/D

StarDust1
January 29, 2010, 08:16 PM
Perhaps someone more schooled can cite the specifics - - I believe the bias is because HK is perceived as catering to the military / LEO market, with selling to civilians a seeming after thought or perhaps necessary evil.

If true, it could be some of that European anti-gun mentality, or whatever the German culture has become post WWII.

In my experience with their customer service people, NOT true.
I didn't see this post until today, too bad as it's SPOT ON, or at least much of it is! They had my pistol for seven months, thats "SEVEN MONTHS!" They were seemingly unconcerned with my satisfaction as a private customer, I'd have to call them nonchalant, almost borderline indifferent to the clearly identified mechanical issues with my specimen.
They weren't jerks or anything, just got the overwhelming impression that they were not comfortable dealing with a private citizen...

Full Metal Jacket
January 29, 2010, 08:38 PM
They had my pistol for seven months, thats "SEVEN MONTHS!"


:eek::eek:

HKGuns
January 29, 2010, 09:27 PM
Not a surprise that the army of Glockers are skewing the results here.

ohioshooter
January 29, 2010, 11:30 PM
Everything is worth what you are willing to pay for it. Whether you can afford it or not.

Boats
January 29, 2010, 11:55 PM
Not a surprise that the army of Glockers are skewing the results here.

Glocks suck. Problem is that H und K sucks harder at a higher price point.

NinjaFeint
January 30, 2010, 12:25 AM
Not a surprise that the army of Glockers are skewing the results here.
Because your screen name would not indicate any sort of bias...:banghead:

Bronco4me
January 30, 2010, 12:35 AM
The HK is a good pistol, but not a great value when it comes to price vs. performance. Same argument can be made for SIG too. I'll take a CZ over either of them any day...

kelo4u2
January 30, 2010, 06:14 PM
If you never owned a $400 grand Rolls Royce you would never know what a hand built car drove like. Same as a $2 grand gun, if you never shot or owned one you would not know how it shot and handled. So if you only owned working mans guns you would not be missing anything

jburg61
January 31, 2010, 01:11 PM
Pending on what I'm wearing, I always have either my USPc or my P2000sk on me. I couldn't be happier with my choice of self defense. My families' lives are worth every penny.

countryrebel
January 31, 2010, 06:45 PM
I voted no.

SharpsDressedMan
January 31, 2010, 07:16 PM
One reason they might NOT deserve high points is, at least in the not distant past, HK service has been unresponsive and poor toward civilian customers. This plays into the "value" of the item. IF you can't get parts or reasonably fast service, it reflects on the total product.

golden
February 1, 2010, 10:27 AM
My agency issues the H&K P2000. The guns proved easy to shoot, accurate and very reliable.

ALMOST!

Recently we had several guns lock up and refuse to fire at the range. The officers carried the guns in a marine/shipyard enviorment and corrosion had rendered the guns unable to fire. I found this troubling considering the high price of the H&K pistols.

They are good guns, but I think many of their competitors are just as good and cheaper. The BERETTA, GLOCK and SIG, to name a few.

Jim

jigglyjames29
February 1, 2010, 10:40 AM
Obviously to some people they are, or else HK would no longer produce pistols.

To the starving haitian, probably not.
To me, yes.

FIVETWOSEVEN
February 1, 2010, 06:15 PM
should carry SIGs golden, they are proven to have little corrosion

NMGonzo
February 1, 2010, 07:54 PM
^^^one of my locals has the LEM p2000 357 sig for about that price.

the reason being--the LEM trigger sux. it's like 12 pounds and a mile long pull (plus they've had it in stock for a year and want to rid themselves of it)....

not mine ...

i shoot super straight with it and the trigger is long but light.

CPshooter
February 1, 2010, 09:28 PM
Overpriced

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My agency issues the H&K P2000. The guns proved easy to shoot, accurate and very reliable.

ALMOST!

Recently we had several guns lock up and refuse to fire at the range. The officers carried the guns in a marine/shipyard enviorment and corrosion had rendered the guns unable to fire. I found this troubling considering the high price of the H&K pistols.

They are good guns, but I think many of their competitors are just as good and cheaper. The BERETTA, GLOCK and SIG, to name a few.

Jim Going to have to raise the BS flag on that one. This "corrosion" internet rumor has been going around lately, and started with an "official" report that had no source, names, or anything to link it back to anything significant. Pure troll-created BS in my opinion. C'mon Jim, you're gonna have to do better than that!

Full Metal Jacket
February 1, 2010, 10:20 PM
^^^does anyone have pics of this corrosion allegation? i'd be interested to see it if it's true.

oneounceload
February 1, 2010, 10:25 PM
As someone who owns Glocks, HK, Kimbers and Berettas, I find Kimbers the most overpriced, especially for the quality delivered for the price; but then again, my HK is the P7..............

w_houle
February 1, 2010, 10:49 PM
As someone who owns Glocks, HK, Kimbers and Berettas, I find Kimbers the most overpriced, especially for the quality delivered for the price; but then again, my HK is the P7..............
Yeah, but this is the H&K hatefest; the Kimber Hatefest is soon to be 'round the corner. If they had more of a market saturation: I could see the point of the question, but they aren't to the pint of ubiquity... Unlike not being able to swing a dead cat and not hit a Glock:rolleyes: H&K has a shrewd business model, and it has worked out well for them.

RP88
February 2, 2010, 12:31 AM
from what I have heard about H&K, I'd say no due to their reported bad CS and their business model. Aside from other personal sore feelings...

All I can say is...if the USP wasn't made by HK, but instead by another company reputed for good (or at least sufferable) CS, then I would want one. I may still get one, since I'm on the market for a .45 and am narrowing it down to a USP and a 1911.

golden
February 2, 2010, 01:39 AM
NO RUMOR--FACT, CP

My sources are the two officers who carried the H&K in question and the Firearms Instructor at the range when it happened.

GOOD ENOUGH?

Jim

CPshooter
February 2, 2010, 02:29 AM
My sources are the two officers who carried the H&K in question and the Firearms Instructor at the range when it happened.

GOOD ENOUGH?
Not really.

boricua9mm
February 3, 2010, 03:02 PM
Maybe twenty years ago when all I cared about was putting holes in paper, I would have voted "No." Having developed an interest in firearms technology and being truly appreciative of quality components, proper fitting and a good finish, I now vote "Yes." It is my opinion that they are the finest production handgun available. Now...if all you care about is putting X caliber holes into a piece of paper, you might not agree, but you would be hard-pressed to convince me that HK pistols are rustbucket jam-o-matics that should only sell for $450.

I've seen lots of people cry about HK over the past five years and it makes me giggle. Obviously they haven't been paying attention to what's been going on at SIG & Colt!

HK pistols are definitely worth my money. I'm cool, and they like me!

RP88
February 3, 2010, 03:28 PM
I'm cool, and they like me!


...no they don't.:p

But in all seriousness, how bad (or in this case, pleasantly surprising, considering what people say) is HK's customer service? That is what would make or break a deal for most people.

boricua9mm
February 3, 2010, 05:20 PM
I think the majority of complaints against HK's customer service is regurgitation from stuff written on the web years ago. On the very rare occasion I've had to contact HK, I've never had a problem getting through or getting info out of them. In fact, I've noticed that most people who have actually contacted HK CS in the past few years have not had any problems either. That being said, there's always that one guy...

Highland Ranger
February 3, 2010, 11:59 PM
I find it hard to believe that a properly lubricated and cared for gun rusted solid.

Based on my experience with the USP, and I bought one of the first 40S&W's in the early 90's, it makes it even harder to believe. Any pictures anywhere of a rusted HK?

RE CS - I've called a few times over the years, no issues. This may be a legacy from before they had a factory in the US. If memory serves, that was 10 years ago or more.

w_houle
February 4, 2010, 12:46 AM
RE CS - I've called a few times over the years, no issues. This may be a legacy from before they had a factory in the US. If memory serves, that was 10 years ago or more.
Yeah, but nobody around here lets minor details such as this get in the way of a good hate:rolleyes:

Averageman
March 7, 2010, 06:44 PM
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r263/Averageman1/HKUSPc45.jpg
H&K USPc in ,45 ACP with everything you see, bought it here for 750 with less than 400 rounds down the pipe.
Worth it to me.

RobMoore
March 7, 2010, 07:20 PM
I don't think used prices were what the OP was referring to.

Hobbesbuff
March 7, 2010, 08:17 PM
A lot of the pro-HK people here offer "reliabilty" and "accuracy" as reasons, but few(none?) say their other guns were unreliable or inaccurate or that they had a companion gun of different make for a fair test of their comparison statement!

My P0-1 has 2,500 rounds through it w/o a hitch and is backed by NATO testing and acceptance---that's proven reliability against similarly tested handguns---Good enough for me!

So, "NO" the HK premium hasn't been objectively established for me. Its not as if we're comparing HK to Hi-Point, after all.:D

christcorp
March 7, 2010, 08:37 PM
Well, the thing is, there's a large price range for H&K that are new. You can get new ones for around $800 like for a P2000 or a USP. You can also get some around $1100. As a person who owns a SigSauer P220 which if bought new today would cost between $900-$1000, I have to vote yes, it is worth it. But that's not to say that there aren't other pistols out there that cost a whole lot less and will do just as good of a job.

If you take the "Used" guns out of the equation, it does get difficult. There are used guns, that aren't built any longer, like the CZ-82 that I have, that I carry twice as often as my P220. And the gun only costs $200. However, you can't buy a "New" CZ-82 any longer anyway. The closest is a CZ-83, but it really isn't the same. So sticking with new guns, you have to look at what you want to compare it to. I consider H&K and SigSauer in a certain category of guns. Both pistols and rifles. And while there is absolutely nothing wrong with a glock, they aren't in the same category. But the glocks are definitely in good company. I put them in a category along with the S&W M&P, and Springfield XD. Then, there's a category for the Taurus, Ruger, and CZ-USA. I put guns like the 1911A1 in their own category, because even though they are still popular and command a high price (Mainly for their name), they are single action only and basically are not as good. Yes, I love my Springfield Armory 1911A1. I've had it for almost 25 years. But it doesn't compare to my Sig p220 or an H&K.

But as some others have mentioned, some people automatically associate price with quality. If "THEY" paid $900-$1000 for a pistol, they "WILL" convince themselves that it's the best pistol out there. However, my elderly mom, who loves to shoot guns when she comes to visit, simply can't handle my P220. She does love however my Walther PPK 32acp, and can hit the size of an orange almost every shot from 20-25 feet. So, is the H&K better? Not is the situation with my mom. Also, some people automatically believe that because a Hi-Point 45acp costs $165, it must be junk. That too is inaccurate. Yes, there are some guns out there that are both Inexpensive AND Cheap. But the hi-point isn't one of them.

So, is the H&K worth what they cost? I guess it really depends on what you want it for, how often you'll be shooting it, and what features about it do you like. If all you want is a reliable pistol for home defense, and something to punch holes in paper, well hell, my Hi-Point will do that. If you want a gun that is made that is balanced and feels like an extension of your hand, built to last, and has all the features and safety that you could want, then the H&K or Sig is definitely going to fit the bill. But it will cost you. If you want something in the middle that has some of the benefits of both, also lighter and easier to carry, then the glocks, M&P, XD, etc... are excellent choices. And they are almost half the price of an H&K or Sig.

Gun are individual. Each one fits and feels differently for each person. Thankfully, we have a lot of choices. I personally don't like glocks. Don't like how they feel or how they shoot. Not that they aren't a good gun. Just not for me. But for the average gun owner, it would be very difficult to justify an H&K or Sig at $800-$1000 when you can get a S&W, SA XD, or glock for $500-$600. And if you wanted REAL METAL and not plastic, there's still plenty of those for half the price of an H&K or Sig. For me, it's worth having the SIg. I know that it will do anything that I could ask from a gun. Same with the H&K's I've shot and the word of my friends who own them. But it is hard to justify the price for some people. One thing I've noticed; most H&K and Sig owners never argue among each other about which is better. It's like a Ferrari owner saying his is better than the Lamborghini that his neighbor has.

crossrhodes
March 7, 2010, 11:41 PM
I think, MHO, in general the H&K is an outstanding pistol....but DHS had and has many problems with their P2000's. I think they fell victim to mass production when they were awarded the DHS contract. The USP's worked great and are the most preferred when it comes to reliability.

Full Metal Jacket
March 7, 2010, 11:56 PM
I think, MHO, in general the H&K is an outstanding pistol....but DHS had and has many problems with their P2000's. I think they fell victim to mass production when they were awarded the DHS contract. The USP's worked great and are the most preferred when it comes to reliability


interesting. first of i've heard of issues with the p2000. the us customs agents that shoot at the range i go to never mentioned any issues with theirs.

do you have a link to an article on this?

thanx

golden
March 8, 2010, 01:32 AM
FULL METAL JACKET,

To my knowledge, there have not been any articles on the rust problem with the H&K. It is a new problem that occurred recently. There is also a minor problem with pins slipping out of place. It can make reassembly a frustrating problem until you know what to look for.

Oh, if they were carrying H&K'S, they were probably immigration officers. The customs officers are easy to pick out as many still carry GLOCKS.

Jim

Skillet
March 8, 2010, 01:32 AM
I honestly think that their pistols are ugly. I like CZ's.

m2steven
March 8, 2010, 04:01 AM
I generally think they are worth the money. Something is worth what someone is willing and able to pay. I have a P7 and it's worth way more than what I paid for it, and I payed more for it than you would ever need to pay for a new Glock. I think Kahrs are worth the money too.
The question "are HKs better than most other pistols" is probably answerable by the words 'many but not all'. I trust them and to me that gives them a bit extra cache. One rarely reads about problems with HK pistols to any extent which approaches the likes of Kimber and some other brands. It becomes apparent after reading pistol forums which firearms have more than their fair share of problems. It could mean than almost no one owns an HK.

cleetus03
March 8, 2010, 11:09 AM
If an H&K USP was in the moderate $500 price range, people would assume it was a moderate built firearm. But add some extra Benjamin notes to that figure and wall-aw it must be a high end piece of machinery:scrutiny:

winknplink
March 8, 2010, 12:21 PM
I had a P2000 that had a horrible rattle from the slide release. They never solved the issue outside of "they all do that", so I sold it and have not looked back at H und K.

No, not worth the money to me. Buying a name.

Storm
March 9, 2010, 10:51 AM
I have owned and shot HK's from before they were commonly known (pre Internet) in this country, when the P9S was king and before the USP. The quality has always been superb and the price has always been high. I'm satisfied with both.

Boats
March 9, 2010, 12:16 PM
My browser says we're on Page 7. The answer to the question remains "NO."

SharpsDressedMan
March 9, 2010, 01:02 PM
If it's good enough for Jack Bauer...............................

TeamPrecisionIT
March 9, 2010, 02:22 PM
I voted no, just due to the fact of the polymer technology not being exploited for the cost savings it gives in terms of raw material used for production. They are geat guns but I have not, and do not see any features on them that warrant the premium price. The closest comparison I can see from a production gun would be the FNP/X series of guns that do not go for as much money as a similarly priced HK. Yes, I have shot them and they go bang and go where you put the front sight, but they are not worth the extra initial investment, IMO.

Damian

Leafy Cronmer
March 9, 2010, 08:37 PM
Normally i would say no, but out of any handgun I have handled I feel like HK pistols are tailor made for my hands. They feel so perfect that I would not mind paying extra for perfection. And when I say perfection I am talking purely about feel. (also all the controls seem to be in the perfect location) Others may disagree but for me nothing like a gun that feels o so right.

RobMoore
March 9, 2010, 08:39 PM
One size fits one.....if you're "one" I guess they make the most sense.

boricua9mm
March 9, 2010, 09:45 PM
One size fits one.....if you're "one" I guess they make the most sense.

Methinks you've been asleep at the wheel for the past 10 years:

P2000: Slender grip with 4 interchangeable backstraps
HK45: Slim grip with 3 interchangeable backstraps
HK45c: Slender grip with 3 (?) interchangeable backstraps
P30: Multiple Interchangeable backstraps AND Interchangeable side panels

xwingband
March 9, 2010, 11:01 PM
One size fits one.....if you're "one" I guess they make the most sense.

That goes for a lot of other guns way more than HK. As boricua9mm said all the newest guns give some customizing to fit you.

Not to mention that HK has been doing ambi functions on stuff like their slide and mag releases for the longest time. The whole world isn't righties... or like me that likes to drop the mag with their index finger.

I only have two handguns now, but I made both HK's. They had what I wanted so the price wasn't too much of an issue. I'd have gone for something else if they were closer and was very temped by M&P's and the XDM.

RobMoore
March 9, 2010, 11:32 PM
I feel like HK pistols are tailor made for my hands

That is what I meant by "one size fits one". I thought it was obvious enough. I guess not.

Samgotit
March 10, 2010, 10:15 AM
For people with small hands the P30 is a dream gun.

It's more than worth it to me. I shoot IPSC with it and have shot XD's, Glocks and M&P's. Ergonomically, there is no comparison.

The P30 is a completely ambidextrous gun with a perfectly placed, long slide stop lever that I can get to with my small thumbs and short trigger finger of either my strong or weak hand. I can manipulate the slide stop and the mag release with my strong hand with nearly NO adjustment from my firing grip. Getting to the mag release on other guns, like Glocks and XD's, means 'flipping' the gun inward so my tiny thumb can get to mag release. Of course, this means coming out of my grip. I've tried extended mag releases on Glocks and XD's. Neither was a good solution for me. I even tried one on both sides of a XD. Switching the mag release to the trigger finger side (strong hand) of a XD resulted in releasing mags with my palm while firing.

The interchangeable back straps and side panels allow me to wrap the P30 up like a pig in a blanket. I do, however, like the Glock's and XD's grip, but the rest don't work for me.

I do not rely on or practice with this in mind, but the P30 auto-forwards every time without having to slam a magazine in. Glocks and XD's do not.

I can get anything to work me, standing in a warm stall in a well lit indoor range shooting paper, but that's not what I need in a gun. That's not saying anything about other manufacturers. I, unfortunately, watch people do a hell of a lot better than I every month at IPSC matches shooting all kinds of different guns.

Sorry, but I couldn't care less what others think. :)

Guns and more
March 10, 2010, 10:55 AM
this is not a question of their quality, but rather do you think their production costs and quality warrant their price.

So then you don't think a Mercedes or Rolls Royce is worth the money either.
"Yep, same sheet metal as a Chevy, should cost the same."

w_houle
March 10, 2010, 12:16 PM
So then you don't think a Mercedes or Rolls Royce is worth the money either.
"Yep, same sheet metal as a Chevy, should cost the same."
Umm... they might already cost the same if you compare individual man hours spent in manufacturing them.
Then again, merely wearing a luxury name brand doesn't make it worth more. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_J_platform)

Boats
March 10, 2010, 12:18 PM
Mercedes and Rolls Royce?

Status symbols that can be objectively outperformed by so-called "lesser" makes?

I guess I see things your way.;) And to think H&K doesn't even give you a "dealership experience." You have to imagine one. Rather like you have to imagine their "combat record."

Guns and more
March 10, 2010, 03:24 PM
I guess I see things your way. And to think H&K doesn't even give you a "dealership experience." You have to imagine one.
Good, we agree. Seriously, I went to the store to purchase a Sig 226 Blackwater. I hated it in my hand, to blocky, too long a reach to the trigger, front heavy. The salesman showed me the H&K P-30 and it was like it was made for my hand. It has never failed in any way, the slide release is located perfectly, the slide is easy to rack, it sounds like a fine machine just dry firing it. And why doesn't everyone make a mag release this simple?
So, yes, I'm a fan of H&K.
Plus, if it's good enough for Jack Bauer, It's good enough for me.
Later, I did get a Sig, the P-238, sweet......now I'm thinking I need to give the P-225 a chance.
But the H&K would be the last gun I'd sell if I had to.

Boats
March 10, 2010, 03:36 PM
Plus, if it's good enough for Jack Bauer, It's good enough for me.

It's always nice to see self-declared tool-hood.

Greg72
March 10, 2010, 10:41 PM
To be completely honest, all 3 of my H&Ks I bought used. Two PSP7s, and my first pistol, the much maligned VP-70. One PSP I haven't fired, it's my safe queen. I have complete faith in the other two as I've never had a failure with either. At a recent range visit, I fired a friend's USP .45. Now golldarnit, I'm contemplating getting one I'm so impressed with how it shot. So yes, I do feel they're worth the money.
Two parting shots though. A friend told me once when I was buying a rifle, " if you can afford it, it's a good deal, if ya can't, it's not." and someone's tagline here is" mindset, skillset, and toolset, in that order." Point being, I'd always try to get the BEST pistol I could afford, and then TRAIN with it. Whether the weapon is a Jennings, Hi-Point or an H&K, the price is kinda a moot point if I can't fight with 'em proficiently. That's my opinion, and y'all know what they say about opinions...

ironduke
March 10, 2010, 11:24 PM
I think they are worth their high prices. I once held a USP Compact .45 and ended up buying one because it fit so well in my hand. And when I finally made it to the range, it was almost immediately more accurate than my SIG P229 (which is a great gun itself).

Autolycus
March 11, 2010, 04:53 AM
That is up to the end user. For me the LEM guns I had were not. But some people love them. HK makes a fine firearm.

benderx4
March 11, 2010, 09:13 AM
If you have to ask the original OP question, than you're buying into the internet libel about HK. (Especially since HK does not cost more than a comparative Sig, and less than many 1911s. We won't even mention Seecamp, Rohrbaugh, etc)

And, btw, if you go onto HKPro, where you'll meet people that have actually used HK customer service, and have not just "heard" about it, you'll find countless threads of satisfied customers. But why confuse facts with internet hearsay?

Guns and more
March 11, 2010, 10:39 AM
It's always nice to see self-declared tool-hood.
Glad I made your day. "Tool-hood" That would be funny except it makes no sense.
I suspect you are one of those who answer every question with, "Get a Glock."

RobMoore
March 11, 2010, 11:39 AM
^ Go look at every thread with the word "Glock" in it going back to Dec29, '02. You will find your answer to that question.

Boats
March 11, 2010, 12:05 PM
Glad I made your day. "Tool-hood" That would be funny except it makes no sense.
I suspect you are one of those who answer every question with, "Get a Glock."

In every thread where a recommendation might be made I had thought to just say "Celebrity X uses Brand Y as a movie/television/video game prop, so you should use one in real life."

The next instant I recognized that as something a twelve year old tool would say.

RobMoore
March 11, 2010, 12:11 PM
.....
Lighten up, Francis

Boats
March 11, 2010, 12:19 PM
^ Go look at every thread with the word "Glock" in it going back to Dec29, '02. You will find your answer to that question.

Not true, I only post about Glocks in kool-aid threads. That's not quite every thread about the misshapen lumps on THR.:p

goldie
March 11, 2010, 10:23 PM
when the usp first appeared in the early 90's, it was made to be more affordable,but about 15 years later,they arent as affordable as they were then. i had a usp 40 for 10 years. very reliable gun,very well made.just wasnt crazy about polymer frame guns any more & that was my last one.between that & the current price of 40 ammo, i sold it a couple of months ago,& i have a walther p88 & a browning hi power which is just as good & cheaper to shoot in 9mm.....

jimpro
September 20, 2010, 05:55 PM
I guess if your gun can shoot bullets backwards they are worth it, LOL

http://i47.tinypic.com/2vjvj46.jpg
Gee if he photographer doesn't know how to load a magazine, at least spring for the photoshop to correct the mistake... I'm a photographer by the way I know how to load a pistol.... I would never buy an HK either.... I don't see the appeal.

hemiram
September 20, 2010, 08:39 PM
I would happily pay $600+ for a nice used P7, but I will pass on paying the same amount for a new polymer HK. Same goes for used, for what a used HK goes for, I can buy two decent all steel guns.

Guns and more
September 20, 2010, 09:38 PM
Are HK pistols worth the money?
Is a Mercedes worth the money when a Chevy will get you there?

RobMoore
September 21, 2010, 12:57 PM
If Chevy made a car that was just a comfortable, just as luxurious, just as fast, just as everything else.........and you still paid Mercedes prices just to have the Hood ornament, would it be worth it?

bartman06
September 21, 2010, 01:02 PM
I said no, the simplest reason is that there are so many guns out there that are more accurate and more reliable for much less money. Also they seem to be behind the curve as far as what people are looking for to accessorize their guns, i mean they have only recently started to put decent light rails on their guns. I might want one but i won't buy it unless the price comes down to a more realistic number.

msgunner
September 21, 2010, 01:08 PM
I have a HK USP40. I got it used (in excellent condition) for $450. It is the most accurate and reliable pistol I've ever owned. Its built tough. Like leave it in a mud puddle for 3 days then pick it up and function flawlessly tough. I wouldn't recommend that but that's the kind of brutal conditions HK arms were designed to withstand.

RobMoore
September 21, 2010, 01:10 PM
$450 is right in line with the prices of new Glocks. If HKs cost that much new, we'd have a good race.

If you're going to price your product well over its competition, it has to offer something special....and "the name and reputation" only works for truly devoted fans and those without enough knowledge to make an educated decision.

Broken Anvil
September 21, 2010, 02:04 PM
I picked up a grade A p7 with 2 mags for $700. Shoots anything and everything with no problems. And it's one of the nicest shooting 9mm I've ever shot. Very good point of aim and quick follow up shots.

JohnBiltz
September 21, 2010, 05:39 PM
I think the people who say if you have not owned one then you should not have an opinion are wrong. We don't own one because we do have an opinion. My opinion is its not $400 better than a Glock. I vote that opinion every time I go into a gun store and its a valid opinion.

gbelleh
September 21, 2010, 08:50 PM
$400 difference? I see closer to a $200 difference (assuming there is a comparable model... no other company has ever offered the equivalent of the P7).

I already posted in this thread, but lately I've gained even more appreciation for my old, workhorse USP 45c. It was absolutely worth every penny to me. I can say the same for every HK I've owned.

If others don't see the same value that I do, that's fine.

Prion
September 21, 2010, 09:05 PM
If you shoot it well, it has proven reliable, you can afford it, and you trust it with your life it is worth any price should the time come to use it in defense of yourself and your loved ones.

walksbyhimself
September 21, 2010, 09:29 PM
I work at a range. I am by no means an expert, but I do get to see lots of weapons firing lots of rounds, and get to fire more than a few myself. My experience with HK's:

Good:
Some are extremely comfy to shoot (p30, p2000, HK45).

Seem to be well designed and put together. Whenever I take apart the rental guns, the HK's fare the best. Very little fouling anywhere other than the barrel and feed ramp.

Very reliable, and break neither more or less often than the Glocks, the CZ's, and the SIG's.

Accurate. Nothing special, but more than adequate. Perhaps a little better than a Glock.

Fully ambidextrous options.

Mostly well-placed controls, slide stop, mag release, etc... all good. I don't like the safety/decocker on the USP, but many other people do. The mag release is kind of wonky, but if I carried one, training would make this a nonissue


You knew it was coming...

Bad things:
Trigger. I don't like it. Every one I've handled has had a gritty, heavy, stacking trigger pull in both SA and DA modes. They do have a massive array of other trigger options, so one of those might suit me better, but haven't had the pleasure yet.

Price. If I really wanted one, this would make no difference. None at all. I'd just have to save more. Other polymer pistols do tend to be much cheaper, but that's the market. Don't like it? OK, do what I did, and don't buy one.

CS/Company attitude. They don't really seem to be concerned with the civilian market. That's their choice, as it is mine whether or not to buy their wares.

And the biggest reason I don't have one? I just don't really want one. I prefer CZ's. I prefer 1911's. In polymer I prefer M&P's and XD's. (Glock? meh.)

Full Metal Jacket
September 21, 2010, 10:33 PM
someone resurrected my old thread! :eek:

still overwhelmingly "no"

digsigs226
September 21, 2010, 11:01 PM
The mag release is kind of wonky, but if I carried one, training would make this a nonissue

The problem for me is not so much the lever release itself, but the fact it's tiny on top of it. The Walther P99 series has a MUCH better lever release because it is a lot bigger. I don't think it will ever be as fast as push button though, even with training.

In my opinion, Hk is a company that THINKS their products are vastly superior to everything else and therefore feel vindicated in charging a lot more than everyone else. Case in point is their stubborn use of their own proprietary rail system when the standard one that every other company uses is just fine. Classic "I know whats best for the consumer more than the consumer does" mentality.

Hanzo581
September 21, 2010, 11:21 PM
They are solid pistols no doubt, but there are also a lot of other very solid pistols that cost less and do the same exact thing, so I say no.

againstthagrane
September 22, 2010, 05:37 AM
I said no, the simplest reason is that there are so many guns out there that are more accurate and more reliable for much less money. Also they seem to be behind the curve as far as what people are looking for to accessorize their guns, i mean they have only recently started to put decent light rails on their guns. I might want one but i won't buy it unless the price comes down to a more realistic number.


Name a gun that is both cheaper, more reliable, more accurate, and has a better trigger than my USP Tactical...I paid 1099.99. Go ahead. Btw, the price point has effectively eliminated all 1911 from consideration because a 1911 that is under 1100 is either accurate or reliable, but I wouldn bet my first born that it won't be both. Please enlighten me. Remember it must be: cheaper, MORE reliable and MORE accurate. Good luck.

Full Metal Jacket
September 22, 2010, 06:00 AM
Name a gun that is both cheaper, more reliable, more accurate, and has a better trigger than my USP Tactical


HK's trigger isn't a selling point for me....

JohnBiltz
September 22, 2010, 07:39 AM
$400 difference? I see closer to a $200 difference (assuming there is a comparable model... no other company has ever offered the equivalent of the P7).
Name a gun that is both cheaper, more reliable, more accurate, and has a better trigger than my USP Tactical...I paid 1099.99.
Glocks around here are going mid to low five hundred. Now I'm not a mathematician but that is more than $200, in fact its more than the $400 I said.

harmon rabb
September 22, 2010, 07:53 AM
Eh, if you actually shoot a gun, the cost of the gun itself isn't much compared to the cost of the ammo you'll put through it. HK's are good guns, so if you like them, have at it.

Personally, I can be a cheapass... and XD's are much cheaper, just as reliable, and I can shoot them well. As such, I really can't justify the cost of a polymer HK to myself. Maybe a P7 someday though, just for the heck of it.

harmon rabb
September 22, 2010, 07:54 AM
$450 is right in line with the prices of new Glocks. If HKs cost that much new, we'd have a good race.

At $550, we'd have a good race. I would seriously consider a HK at that price.

RobMoore
September 22, 2010, 08:23 AM
Agreed.

harmon rabb
September 22, 2010, 08:28 AM
$450 is right in line with the prices of new Glocks. If HKs cost that much new, we'd have a good race.

At $550, we'd have a good race. I would seriously consider a HK at that price.

Dobe
September 22, 2010, 08:37 AM
HK's trigger isn't a selling point for me.... The SA pull on an HK is as good as any, with the exception of a 1911.

triplebike
September 22, 2010, 12:17 PM
Name a gun that is both cheaper, more reliable, more accurate, and has a better trigger than my USP Tactical...I paid 1099.99. Go ahead. Btw, the price point has effectively eliminated all 1911 from consideration because a 1911 that is under 1100 is either accurate or reliable, but I wouldn bet my first born that it won't be both. Please enlighten me. Remember it must be: cheaper, MORE reliable and MORE accurate. Good luck.
FNP-Tactical

WillDe83
September 22, 2010, 01:03 PM
yes, the HK's work great for me, love the ergos and I can shoot them better than my M&P9, but just as good as my 1911.

I had Glocks and I just couldnt shoot very well with them and ended up selling them to help finance a HK P30. Oddly I miss my Glock 17, it didnt fit my hand very well nor did I shoot it very well, but it was my first Glock.

Its really all about what you like and what you want to buy and use.

Samgotit
September 22, 2010, 01:06 PM
HK does not have one trigger.

There are different versions of the LEM, and on different models those different versions are different. When discussing HK triggers, it's necessary to specify a model (and trigger version). To a lesser degree the same applies to HK DA/SA triggers.

msgunner
September 22, 2010, 01:13 PM
My only complaint about my usp40 is the double action trigger pull. Its as hard of a pull as some revolvers I've shot

againstthagrane
September 22, 2010, 02:22 PM
I see some people aren't getting the point.

There is no way a Glock is MORE accurate than a USP TACTICAL. :neener: I know, I have a G17. If anything the accuracy is the same. And the real world reliability is the same. Don't go showing me that torture test between a Glock and a USP. I don't plan on dropping my USP in baby powder anytime soon.

The FNP Tactical goes for only $100 less than a Tactical. Plus it's ugly and completely unproven. Doesn't come with the match trigger either. And unless you have real empirical evidence that it is MORE accurate and MORE reliable your argument doesn't hold water. If you do please post the link. Being the hottest new thing on the street isn't proof that it's better.

HK's trigger isn't a selling point for me....

You've obviously never fired a USP Tactical so your opinion is moot. There is not a better trigger in ANY polymer gun offered today (in single action mode of course ;)).

Glocks around here are going mid to low five hundred. Now I'm not a mathematician but that is more than $200, in fact its more than the $400 I said.

fair enough, now add a match trigger to that Glock @ $50ish, then a threaded barrel @140 and then add a set of METAL adjustable match sights $250 and you'll have all of the options that came with my tactical. I'll save you some time and do the math for you that comes out to 1099.99 for the Tactical and 1025.00 for the Glock assuming that you would spend $60 for installation of the trigger springs. That's not even considering the shipping for the three items or installation of the sights. Do you see the point I'm making? Probably not. Most of you are so blinded by envy you couldn't see the truth if I tattooed it into your retinas.

I can see why everyone is groaning about a NORMAL USP not being worth $200 more than a Glock. That IMO is a valid debate. There is, however NO debate that a Tactical model USP is a bargain. A dead-nuts accurate, to hell and back reliable pistol with an excellent trigger in single stage mode. the uncocked DA mode is workable.

Full Metal Jacket
September 22, 2010, 03:08 PM
At $550, we'd have a good race. I would seriously consider a HK at that price.

even so, considering the trigger pull, and the fact that parts like a replacement recoil assembly runs like $50 (as apposed to glock's $7), i'd still have to pass.....

gtmtnbiker98
September 22, 2010, 03:33 PM
But your Glock recoil spring "should" be replaced every ~5,000-rounds and the HK's recoil spring assembly is rated for ~20,000 rounds. If you are smart enough, you only have to replace the spring and not the entire assembly. The springs are cheap, BTW.

Also, from recent reports, the Glock Gen 4 pistols are losing their benchmark of reliability.

againstthagrane
September 22, 2010, 03:35 PM
If you cant afford it , you hate Hk and if you can afford it, you love HK

Basically all I got from the bickering

Basically. It reminds me of the Camaro vs Vette guys back in the LS1 days. The Camaro guys want to believe that they have an equal car to the Vette even though they paid less money. "hey it has the same engine, why should i pay more?" So they trash Vettes and call them overpriced and this and that...

againstthagrane
September 22, 2010, 03:36 PM
But your Glock recoil spring "should" be replaced every ~5,000-rounds and the HK's recoil spring assembly is rated for ~20,000 rounds. If you are smart enough, you only have to replace the spring and not the entire assembly. The springs are cheap, BTW

Get out of here with your logic and reasoning!!! don't you know HK hates us? won't somebody think of the children?!?

HOOfan_1
September 22, 2010, 04:04 PM
Is a Mercedes worth the money when a Chevy will get you there?

I think that would be more of a is a Mercedes worth the money if they were priced at $70,000 for a base coupe, while a base coupe BMW has the same features and will get you there for $40,000.

Or, you could say, if Mercedes made their cars out of plastic and then charged the same amount as a steel BMW...is a Mercedes worth it?

Full Metal Jacket
September 22, 2010, 04:23 PM
But your Glock recoil spring "should" be replaced every ~5,000-rounds and the HK's recoil spring assembly is rated for ~20,000 rounds. If you are smart enough, you only have to replace the spring and not the entire assembly. The springs are cheap, BTW.

20,000? never heard that. also, changing only the springs in a dual captive recoil assembly isn't recommended, or convenient, despite your alleged intelligence level.

Rico567
September 22, 2010, 05:09 PM
This is a forced choice poll, a classic fallacy, and I won't vote in it. (Think of a question: "King Id, rat or fink?".....but what if King Id is some third thing?) The truth here is more complicated than anything that can be elicited by a simple Y/N poll.

Depending on what the pistol is used for, the HK may be overpriced, or price may be irrelevant. If I use the gun for casual plinking, it costs way too much. If it "fits" me, is accurate and does CCW well on me, and my life is at stake, then price may be the least of my considerations.

harmon rabb
September 22, 2010, 06:35 PM
If you cant afford it , you hate Hk and if you can afford it, you love HK

Basically all I got from the bickering

I can afford to buy any H&K I want. But I don't own any. I can't justify the cost to myself, given the quality guns available in the $450-$600 price range (i.e. glock, xd, m&p).

RobMoore
September 22, 2010, 06:40 PM
post no longer needed

Full Metal Jacket
September 22, 2010, 06:54 PM
This is a forced choice poll, a classic fallacy, and I won't vote in it.

then don't.


If you cant afford it , you hate Hk and if you can afford it, you love HK

lots of folks can't afford a bushmaster ACR, but that doesn't mean they hate it.



I can afford to buy any H&K I want. But I don't own any. I can't justify the cost to myself, given the quality guns available in the $450-$600 price range (i.e. glock, xd, m&p).

well said. :)

WillDe83
September 22, 2010, 07:07 PM
It may not be the least thought-out statement in the thread, but it is a strong contender.
You need to not take my statement to heart. Dont get offended by a generalized blanket statement.

I apologize if I offended you, I have deleted my comment.

JohnBiltz
September 22, 2010, 07:14 PM
I never was really able to afford a Python back in the .357 heyday but I sure did lust after them. They just exuded niceness and quality. HK doesn't do that for me, there is no lust.

Lucky Derby
September 22, 2010, 07:15 PM
I did not vote because it depends on which HK pistol you are talking about.
P9/P9s, P7, VP70-yes
USP-no

sturmgewehr70
September 22, 2010, 07:29 PM
I own a USP Tactical and an USC .45. They are awesome weapons, but really don't out perform anything else I own in a similar configuration. Hell, my Kel-Tec 9mm carbine is just as accurate as the HK.:what:
I bought the weapons because I liked what I read in the hype. They just never did blow my socks off.:evil:

Bentonville
September 22, 2010, 07:59 PM
Without a doubt. Most folks I know who own HKs would say the same thing. Many who have never owned one would not agree. I try not to give an opinion about something if I don't really know from experience.

HGUNHNTR
September 23, 2010, 12:41 AM
My HK USP Tactical is the most accurate 45 I have ever fired bar none. Maybe it just fits me, maybe its one in a million, but it is incredible and well worth the money. I just can't stand target shooting with defensive pistols that have 5-9 pound triggers, the HK makes it more fun by providing incredible accuracy with low cost. (sub 1K) Has anyone gained anything from this thread? Has any HK fan decided their pistol is overpriced crap? Has any HK detractor decided they are in fact worth the premium and has rushed out to buy one? The answer is probably "no" because our main handicap is our huge, fragile egos. There are a lot of polymer pistols that shoot well, pick one that you like and don't worry about what every one else is shooting and their reasoning behind it.

Samgotit
September 23, 2010, 02:48 AM
I did not vote because it depends on which HK pistol you are talking about.
P9/P9s, P7, VP70-yes
USP-no

It is one of the sillier polls, being so vague... but pecking a button is fun! :)

M2MikeGolf
September 23, 2010, 05:53 AM
I voted "yes", for a variety of reasons.

To be fair, one must consider that what you pay for is not the actual physical worth of an item/firearm. The cost of machinery, design engineers, testing, employee pay, etc. is why automobiles, aircraft, weapons (or whatever) tend to have such high values in relation to cost. HK spends large amounts in research and production considering that they equip many military organizations with small arms (and larger caliber weapons as well). The current small arms they sell are only a small portion of their market, and they, like Mauser, Colt and many others, sell small arms to the private sector and get small return for their overall business.

I think that while there are fine quality firearms available on the market, that HK pistols are worth their cost. HK set out to replace the aging inventory of small arms for the Bundeswehr some years ago, and instead of simply making replacement designs, they also meant to compete or supersede many very high quality military weapons on the market. Few even realize one of the premier .300 Win Mag sniper rifles in the world is an HK (not offered for private sale) and one of the best battle rifles in the world is the G36, also the platform used for the considered replacement to the M16/M4. In relation to pistols, the SIG P226 and Glock pistols influenced the designs of the USP. As a U. S. servicemember, I have fired all of these, to include the US issued M9 and M11 (and M1911), and I think that HKs line of USP designs are at least equal, if not superior to any of those designs. In order not to set off a fury of "mine is better" I won't list individual names, and why I think the USP is as good or better, but if I had to chose a sidearm for military use, I would say the USP (in whatever caliber you prefer) is an outstanding weapon, and might even be my number one choice. HK has been known for cutting edge military grade stuff for almost sixty years now, and that's another factor when you look at cost. I do not own an HK (I have a P228, which I love), but have thought often of trading for a USP compact. I've never been much of a polymer receiver fan, but for military weapons, they make a lot of sense.

I do not want to detract from any manufacturer, all of the high quality ones fetch pretty hefty prices these days. I feel that you get what you pay for with an HK, and believe that all of their designs are worthwhile.

Anyway, my two cents worth. I have to add a personal bias; my last name is Koch!

FIVETWOSEVEN
September 23, 2010, 06:33 PM
To be fair, one must consider that what you pay for is not the actual physical worth of an item/firearm. The cost of machinery, design engineers, testing, employee pay, etc. is why automobiles, aircraft, weapons (or whatever) tend to have such high values in relation to cost. HK spends large amounts in research and production considering that they equip many military organizations with small arms (and larger caliber weapons as well). The current small arms they sell are only a small portion of their market, and they, like Mauser, Colt and many others, sell small arms to the private sector and get small return for their overall business.
Isn't HK, Mauser?

HK now seems to be basing their guns off other designs like the G36 being based of the AR 18 and the G3 being a licensed copy of the CETME with the MP5 a blowback 9mm brother.

againstthagrane
September 23, 2010, 09:16 PM
Every gun is "based" on another one. The only new design I've seen is the KRISS and even that is a variation on some other design that I can't remember.

NOLAEMT
September 23, 2010, 10:03 PM
I wouldn't trade my uspc.45 for much of anything.

And if I lost it I would replace it with another (although perhaps an HK45c) in a heartbeat.

Stevie-Ray
September 24, 2010, 12:20 AM
I replaced my HKUSP45C with a 3" 1911 that was smaller, lighter, had less recoil, was far more accurate with the same load, has been just as reliable, and isn't butt-ugly. I really bought into the hype all those years ago. I really thought I needed a HK or a SIG. Picking up and pointing them at a local GM assured me that the HK was the more natural pointer for me, I found the perfect one, and a few weeks later it was mine, but I was never truly happy. I'd still love to have a P7. But, the USPC is far overrated. Just as good as a Glock. But not $200 better.

HGUNHNTR
September 24, 2010, 09:16 AM
^ If you like a physical safety, ambi mag release, different grip angle why isn't it worth $200 more?

joe_security
September 24, 2010, 10:10 AM
Stevie-Ray, Would you mind naming that 3" 1911 that has worked so well for you ?
I have always wanted one that would run on 230 grain ball. Since this is an HK thread I will say that I have fired a rented USPc .40 and liked it more than my old G22.

12131
September 25, 2010, 05:52 AM
They are not worth the money. But, I do have a couple of them.:D

FIVETWOSEVEN
September 25, 2010, 09:24 AM
^ If you like a physical safety, ambi mag release, different grip angle why isn't it worth $200 more?
Springfield XD is about the same price as a Glock and comes with all that.

HGUNHNTR
September 25, 2010, 04:19 PM
^ Yeah, but then you have to own an XD and not an HK.

FIVETWOSEVEN
September 25, 2010, 09:45 PM
^Yeah but you can get a XD cheaper and better than a USP.

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