Strange Question on Conceal Carry in Delaware


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nachosgrande
January 20, 2010, 04:04 PM
I am a Delaware resident thinking about getting a Florida out of state permit because it's cheaper, quicker, and much less hassle than a Delaware permit. When I read the law, it clearly states that a Florida out of state permit is valid in Delaware. The law, however, says nothing about Delaware residents using an out of state FL ccw permit. Some people I've talked to say that if you live in DE you have to have a DE permit. That doesn't make sense to me for several reasons, one it is not stipulated in DE law, and two, why would this state give advantages to out of state people if that were true?

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sheepdog
January 20, 2010, 04:07 PM
...302-577-8400...

nachosgrande
January 20, 2010, 04:24 PM
Thanks for the number, but my best friend is a prosecutor for the AG's office, and he said he has no idea. We both looked over the law and he said it's too poorly written to answer the question. If I call the prothonotary vs state police vs AG's office, I get a different answer. It's crazy, nobody knows.

Sam1911
January 20, 2010, 04:31 PM
If the law doesn't say you can't, then why not?

There are a lot of thing people will swear are so, simply because they're "common sense." Having to hold a permit from your state of residence to carry there would be one of those. But if the law doesn't say so, then how is one to be prosecuted?

If the state AG's office can't figure out how to make a case out of it (!?!) then I'd say you're pretty far out in the clear!

(But, IANAL.)

-Sam

zoom6zoom
January 20, 2010, 04:37 PM
Normally if there's no law against it, it's legal.

wishin
January 20, 2010, 05:23 PM
Sounds to me like there's a loophole in DE law that makes it perfectly legal to use a FL permit for everyday carry while a DE resident. Make sure you have your AG buddy's phone numbers in your CCW wallet just in case. Wouldn't hurt to have a copy of DE's CCW reciprocity law on you too. I say loophole because it's just that, an end-around to applying for and getting a DE permit. Whatever works.:cool:

Delaware_Dan
January 20, 2010, 06:41 PM
I went through the same thing you are going through a couple of years ago. A FL Carry permit is only valid in DE if you are a FL resident who is "visiting" or "passing through". If you are a resident of DE, you have to get your carry permit through the state of DE. Open carry is legal in DE but very frowned upon.

Sam1911
January 20, 2010, 06:43 PM
DE Dan,

That sounds like good information. I'll suggest, though, that the Original Poster would probably like to see the legal citation that establishes this as fact.

See?

Some people I've talked to say that if you live in DE you have to have a DE permit. That doesn't make sense to me ... it is not stipulated in DE law

That way, at least, he can pass it on to his friend at the Attorney General's office so they know the score.

Thanks!
-Sam

Delaware_Dan
January 20, 2010, 06:50 PM
No, it clearly is stipulated in the law, I just didn't save the link to it. I had to look for a while but I found it. I will do some digging to see if I can't find it again.

Delaware_Dan
January 20, 2010, 06:54 PM
This isn't exactly what I was looking for, but it will shed some light.


http://delcode.delaware.gov/sessionlaws/ga142/chp140.shtml


Section 2. Further Amend § 1441 of Title 11 of the Delaware Code by adding thereto a new Subsection “(k)” to read as follows:

Ҥ 1441(k).

The Attorney General shall have the discretion to issue, on a limited basis, a temporary license to carry concealed a deadly weapon to any individual who is not a resident of this State and whom the Attorney General determines has a short-term need to carry such a weapon within this State in conjunction with his or her employment for the protection of person or property. Said temporary license shall automatically expire thirty (30) days from the date of issuance and shall not be subject to renewal , and must be carried at all times while within the State. However, nothing contained herein shall prohibit the issuance of a second or subsequent temporary license. The Attorney General shall have the authority to promulgate and enforce such regulations as may be necessary for the administration of such temporary licenses. No individual shall be issued more than three temporary licenses.”.

Section 3. Further amend §1441 of Title 11 of the Delaware Code by adding thereto a new subsection "(l)" to read as follows:

"(l) All applications for a temporary license to carry a concealed deadly weapon made pursuant to subsection (k) shall be in writing and shall bear a notice stating that false statements therein are punishable by law."

Approved July 11, 2003

Sam1911
January 20, 2010, 07:03 PM
but it will shed some light.

Really? Everything in those paragraphs relates to permits issued by DE itself. Not (even) to DE's recognition of permits issued by other states, to say nothing of DE's recognition of permits issued by other states to DE residents.

I don't mean to be dismissive at all, but how does this even begin to answer the O.P.'s question?

-Sam

Delaware_Dan
January 20, 2010, 08:48 PM
I have already answered the OPs question. The answer is no. If you are a DE resident and you want to legally carry a concealed firearm you must have a DE carry permit. Take my word or don't, it's up to you. You can always call the DE state police and they will tell you the same thing.

Sam1911
January 20, 2010, 09:00 PM
I have already answered the OPs question. The answer is no. If you are a DE resident and you want to legally carry a concealed firearm you must have a DE carry permit. Take my word or don't, it's up to you.

Can you find a specific sentence or paragraph of Delaware State law that says this? I really am inclined to believe you. But whether I believe you or not doesn't change what the law actually says.

You can always call the DE state police and they will tell you the same thing.They may, but the there is a long track record of various law enforcement officers and organizations offering opinions that were not actually backed up by law.

For example, my local Sheriff's office here in PA advises License to Carry holders that they may not carry a gun in a bar. This is not PA Commonwealth law, and carries no legal weight. But, they feel that they should say so, so they do. They can't prosecute you for it, for it isn't a crime.

In the end, it isn't the State Police that will prosecute you for violation of the law. But, the State's prosecutor is going to have to charge you with a specific crime against a specific law. If the Attorney General's office cannot provide a clear citation one way or another, it is quite possible that such a requirement does not exist.

But I believe you. Really! Just, please find that citation so we can put this to rest.

Many thanks!

-Sam

Samgotit
January 20, 2010, 09:08 PM
I have no clue about DE, but Louisiana is set to change the law next session in regard to out of state permits. A non-resident permit will no longer be valid for a resident according to some very trustworthy sources. It's a good reason to get the permit your state offers in case something similar happens.

nachosgrande
January 20, 2010, 09:37 PM
I appreciate all the replies, but it appears that nobody really knows. The reason it doesn't make sense to me is that Delaware requires you to have five upstanding members of society that you have known for a while in the county that you reside sign a form saying that you are of sound mind to possess this permit. So that means that people that have just moved to Delaware are ineligible to apply for this permit for several years. That just doesn't sound right to me.

Delaware_Dan
January 20, 2010, 09:56 PM
I really wish I could find the article of the law again, it would make things a lot more clear. I can not find the article, but what I can do is give you the names and numbers of my local CCW instructors, who are a lot more well versed in the specific laws on the subject. I know for a fact that you have to have a current DE permit to carry here if you are a resident, and I would do a little more reasearch before going out and about with a concealed handgun. I would hate to read about some poor guy that that overlooked a tiny part of Delawares extensive laws that got made an example of. I would hate to see you lose your freedom and or hard earned money trying to fight this. Do you really want to risk it just because you can't find the revision on Delawares poor excuse for a website? PM me if you want the numbers for the CCW instructors. They know the law to the letter, and can probably point you in the right direction as far as seeing the actual article itself.

The Bushmaster
January 20, 2010, 11:21 PM
Support your state and get the Delaware permit. The more people that have "their" state CCW permits the better off you and the rest of the people are. Improve your states stats...

[reminds me of a liberal looking for the easy way out.]

nachosgrande
January 20, 2010, 11:30 PM
I don't know about easy way out, Bushmaster. FL would give me DE and PA, which I frequently travel to, and the DE permit does not give me PA.

Delaware_Dan
January 21, 2010, 12:12 AM
Make sure you check the specific PA laws as well, you might be good there (just visiting). You just need to find out if you need to be a resident in your permit state.

Sam1911
January 21, 2010, 08:40 AM
Support your state and get the Delaware permit.I agree with Bushmaster -- in his sentiment. But it is important to understand exactly what is being required of DE permit holders.

Not only does he have to provide all the letters of recomendation, but he also has to have a personal interview with the A.G.'s office, and then appear before a judge and plead his case to be granted the license. O.k., so that's a hassle, and far more intrusive than most states have found any need to be, but I could live with it.

BUT, DE also requires that each applicant takes out a classified ad in a newspaper of your County that reaches a circulation of at least 35% of the population of your zip code (which may not be physically possible in this electronic era!) announcing to the world that they are applying and giving their home address! Not only does this alert (and possibly alarm) your neighbors, whose business your CCW ISN'T, but it also is as good as a sign in front of your house saying, "THERE ARE GUNS HERE!"

Very, very few of us would feel that this is acceptable.

So, while I agree that DE needs to see strong numbers of issued licenses, I really can't fault the O.P. for seeking a less ghastly way of carrying legally.

-Sam

wishin
January 21, 2010, 09:04 AM
^^^
+1
I was ambivalent until now. Go for it!!

Delaware_Dan
January 21, 2010, 12:18 PM
Very, very few of us would feel that this is acceptable.

Who is us? Non DE residents? If you feel the need to carry, and ever have to use your carry gun your name in the back of the paper is going to be the last thing on your mind. DE has plenty of people who carry, so I don't think it's as few as you think. Is it a hassle? Yes. Do you want to carry to protect yourself and loved ones? I would hope so. So getting a DE permit is not as easy as some other states, maybe even a PITA, but the "reward" of being able to legally protect your family is greater IMO.

rmfnla
January 21, 2010, 12:21 PM
Can you get a Florida permit if you are not a resident of that state?

Delaware_Dan
January 21, 2010, 12:25 PM
but it also is as good as a sign in front of your house saying, "THERE ARE GUNS HERE!"

Let me address this. This statement is ludacris. Have you ever seen the DE News Journal? There about 10 pages in the back of "announcements" and I don't think that criminals are scanning the public land bids to scout out potential gun owners. Maybe, maybe %1 even glance through all of the name changes, divorces, etc. It is in no way like hanging a sign on your house that says there are guns here. I agree with you that getting your permit here is a hassle but that statement is absurd.

Delaware_Dan
January 21, 2010, 12:26 PM
Can you get a Florida permit if you are not a resident of that state?

Yes.

Sam1911
January 21, 2010, 12:29 PM
Who is us? Non DE residents?Setting aside the fact that there are undoubtedly DE folks who DO find such intrusions unacceptable, I was actually referring to those of "US" from other places not strapped by such onerous requirements. Several people had posted saying, "Why not just get your DE permit and stop worrying?" When they had the DE requirements explained to them, at least one (wishin) said (not in so many words) "Screw THAT!"

As a PA resident (formerly of DE, FWIW) my permit cost ~$31, required almost NOTHING of me besides filling out the application and supplying a few references' names (who didn't have to be from the state), and alowing the sheriff to conduct a very basic background check. Since then, I've gone to the further "hassle" of taking a class and getting fingerprinted so that I can get my Utah non-resident permit as well. That permit gives me the ability to carry in DE -- with exactly the same rights and priviledges afforded to any DE resident who spent their money, sat through their interview, went before the judge, and publicized their personal information for that ability.

I would NEVER argue that it isn't worth it to do all those things in order to have the legal right to defend yourself! You are completely correct that those "PITAs" are more than trumped by the "reward" of having your gun if you need it.

But, if we can help DE residents find a way to accomplish the same goals -- LEGALLY -- without the intrusion and hassle, that's a wonderful thing!

-Sam

Sam1911
January 21, 2010, 12:38 PM
Let me address this. This statement is ludicrous. Have you ever seen the DE News Journal? There about 10 pages in the back of "announcements" and I don't think that criminals are scanning the public land bids to scout out potential gun owners. Maybe, maybe %1 even glance through all of the name changes, divorces, etc. It is in no way like hanging a sign on your house that says there are guns here. I agree with you that getting your permit here is a hassle but that statement is absurd

With the greatest respect, I completely disagree with you. You are posting in a public place an announcement that you own some valuable things (guns), along with an address where they may be found any time you are not at home. Whether you consider this to be a huge risk or not, it is EXACTLY as I've described it. Any criminal who chooses to read through that section -- knowing that these announcements MUST be there from time to time -- has significantly more than half his work done for him (locating which houses to hit) if he's inclined to burglary.

It's not like burglaries don't happen. You can't argue that guns are stolen from homes often enough. And that they are a specific target because of their more significant black market value.

If you don't consider that risk important, that's your decision to make, but many people DO -- many security specialists DO -- so that's why I mention it here.

NOW, on to the other point: Read over the various threads here on newspapers and other media publishing lists of CCW permit holders in various areas. You'll see that a very great many folks who carry find this highly offensive and dangerous. If you value your privacy about your guns and your views on self-defense, publishing that info in any public source is anathema. Again, you don't seem to count this as important. But many, many do. So you can't really claim it to be ludicrous.

-Sam

bababooey32
January 21, 2010, 12:41 PM
DE Dan, You are making alot of definitive statements but, so far, no back up to any of them. Your claim that DE law is clear on the matter of out-of-state permits should be easy to provide citations for, given the supposed clarity of the law.

Your claim that no one looks at the announcements section of the paper is not verifiable either way. One must assume that once my private information is published, it can and will be accessed by people with bad intentions. Same reason you don't use your real name to post here - privacy.

Sam1911
January 21, 2010, 12:45 PM
I don't think that criminals are scanning the public land bids to scout out potential gun owners.Did you know that there are documented cases of exactly that kind of thing? Scam artists who contact families who have published obituary notices claiming that the deceased owed them money, for example. Knowing where to act, or on whom, for the greatest reward and chance of success, is the criminal's primary skill.

Maybe, maybe %1 even glance through all of the name changes, divorces, etc. If no one reads this information, it wouldn't be published -- taking up valuable ad space, etc. Self-defeating argument.

And, sometimes, the information that "most folks" skip right over is very carefully studied by folks who can get something from it.

-Sam

Delaware_Dan
January 21, 2010, 12:57 PM
But, if we can help DE residents find a legal way to accomplish the same goals -- LEGALLY -- without the intrusion and hassle, that's a wonderful thing!



I wish we could, man, I really do. It's weird, we have one of the easiest states to purchase guns (long/hand) but our carry permit process is so drawn out and expensive to boot. Hell I can walk into my local shop right now and buy every gun he has (500+) and walk out with them the same day, with ammo. Quick check takes about 20 mins. depending if the fed is backed up or not. No pistol permit, no "cooling off" period, just walk in show 2 forms of ID fill out 2 peices of paper, and wait to be cleared (about 20 mins.) and walk out with your new guns. But whoa, whoa, whoa, you need you jump through these hoops to carry one, ah, and the one thats on fire, and maybe we'll give you a permit. It's backwards as hell but it is what it is. Gotta have a DE permit to carry.

Sam1911
January 21, 2010, 01:00 PM
Gotta have a DE permit to carry

Find that statute! ;) It's gotta be there somewhere!

-Sam

Delaware_Dan
January 21, 2010, 01:09 PM
DE Dan, You are making alot of definitive statements but, so far, no back up to any of them. Your claim that DE law is clear on the matter of out-of-state permits should be easy to provide citations for, given the supposed clarity of the law.


I don't have to provide anything for anybody, like I said you can take my word or don't it's your call. I know the law, do you? Do your own research and you will come up with the law. As far as that goes, Delawares website is a travasty, finding anything on there takes forever, thats why I have not gone back through the hundreds of pages to "prove" anything to you guys.

I completely disagree with you.

Thats what dicussions are for, if we all agreed all the time life would be no fun.


If no one reads this information, it wouldn't be published -- taking up valuable ad space, etc. Self-defeating argument.


It has to be published legally, people reading it holds no bearing on its being published.


Look guys we are way off topic here I have already guided the OP in the right direction via PM and at this point we are just bickering, and picking apart each others posts. I am in no way agreeing that the DE Permit to Carry process is in any way fair or unobtrusive, I am just saying that that is the only route to take if you are a DE resident who wants to CC. Fair enough?

Delaware_Dan
January 21, 2010, 01:11 PM
Find that statute! It's gotta be there somewhere!


I invite you to try, this website seems like it was put together by a 4th grader.

http://delcode.delaware.gov/

Quoheleth
January 21, 2010, 01:15 PM
1. Get the Florida permit "for the time being." Carry when & as you will under the silence of the law (IANAL) if you choose.
2. Get the ball rolling for a Deleware permit.
3. When you get the Deleware permit, you're abolutely in the clear.

Q

Sam1911
January 21, 2010, 01:15 PM
I invite you to try

Well, at the risk of copping out, I'm starting to suspect that it might, maybe, not really be there at all. And you can search for a LONG time looking for something that isn't there. Hard to prove a negative. Undoubtedly lots of people believe that it is, and lots of texts and guides may suggest/assume that it is -- cause it's just common sense, right? -- but if the state's AG's office can't find it ... ? And they won't be prosecuting based off of a web site, either.

I could certainly be wrong. I'll own up to it, too. But I want to see the statute that spells it out.

Delaware_Dan
January 21, 2010, 01:41 PM
Well, at the risk of copping out,

Don't sweat it, I copped out from the get go. I just don't feel like doing the legwork again for the proof. Like I said before take my word or don't, I'm just trying to save the guy the hassle.

Delaware_Dan
January 21, 2010, 01:55 PM
Found it

The Attorney General is in the process of securing agreements with the appropriate officials in certain other states which when completed, permit persons who have a concealed deadly weapon license or permit issued by one of those states to lawfully possess a concealed deadly weapon while visiting or traveling through Delaware.


My original post: I went through the same thing you are going through a couple of years ago. A FL Carry permit is only valid in DE if you are a FL resident who is "visiting" or "passing through".



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pursuant to 11 Del.C. ' 1441(j), as of July 11, 2003, Delaware law allows residents of other states who have been issued a concealed deadly weapon license or permit by certain other states to lawfully carry concealed deadly weapons in Delaware if the state that issued the permit or license also recognizes Delaware's concealed deadly weapons licenses, and if Delaware's Attorney General also determines that the concealed deadly weapons licensing or permit laws in the issuing state "afford a reasonably similar degree of protection as is provided by licensure in Delaware." The Attorney General has determined that only states that require proof of training in firearms safety as a part of their licensing or permit process can meet this requirement.
The Attorney General is in the process of securing agreements with the appropriate officials in certain other states which when completed, permit persons who have a concealed deadly weapon license or permit issued by one of those states to lawfully possess a concealed deadly weapon while visiting or traveling through Delaware. Similarly, Delawareans will be able to possess a concealed deadly weapon while visiting or traveling through those states. However, as of today Delaware does not recognize the concealed deadly weapon licenses or permits issued by states other than those listed below, and these states do not recognize Delaware's concealed deadly weapons licenses as valid.

ALASKA

ARIZONA

ARKANSAS

COLORADO

FLORIDA

KENTUCKY

MAINE

MICHIGAN

MISSOURI

NORTH CAROLINA

NORTH DAKOTA

OHIO

OKLAHOMA

TENNESSEE

TEXAS

UTAH

VIRGINIA

WEST VIRGINIA



Law enforcement officials from other jurisdictions can verify Delaware CCDW permits by contacting the Delaware State Police Headquarters on a 24/7 basis via NLET.AM directed to DEDSP0000 or by calling 302-739-5901

Persons who have a concealed deadly weapons license or permit issued by one of the states listed above will be able to lawfully possess a concealed deadly weapon while visiting or traveling through Delaware. However, such persons will be subject to and are responsible for knowing and obeying all of Delaware's laws and regulations that apply to the carrying and possession of concealed or openly-carried deadly weapons. Click here for information on licensing to carry a concealed deadly weapon in Delaware.

Because of differences in the laws of the various states, it is possible that a person who is lawfully permitted to possess a deadly weapon in another state may be prohibited from doing so pursuant to Delaware law. The following persons are prohibited from possessing deadly weapons or ammunition in Delaware:

any person previously convicted of any felony
any person previously convicted of any misdemeanor involving physical injury to another or domestic violence, unless more than 5 years has elapsed from the date of the conviction
any person previously convicted of any crime involving the unlawful use, possession or sale of any illegal drug
any person who has not yet reached his or her 25th birthday who has been previously convicted as a juvenile of a crime which, if committed by an adult, would constitute a felony
any person who is subject to a Protection From Abuse Order issued by a competent court
any person who has previously been committed to a hospital or mental institution for treatment for a mental disorder

Possession of a deadly weapon by a person prohibited from doing so is a felony. Click here to view Delaware's Possession of a Deadly Weapon by a Prohibited Person statute.


Delaware law also prohibits the possession of silencers, sawed-off shotguns and machine guns under all circumstances.

Delawareans who have a Delaware concealed deadly weapons permit will be able to possess a concealed deadly weapon while visiting or traveling through the states listed above, and also in Idaho, Indiana and Vermont. However, Delawareans who possess a concealed deadly weapon in another state will be subject to and are responsible for knowing and obeying all of the laws and regulations in the other state that apply to the carrying and possession of concealed or openly-carried deadly weapons. Because of differences in the laws of the various states, it is possible that a person who is lawfully permitted to possess a deadly weapon pursuant to Delaware law may be prohibited from doing so in another state. Most other states require any person who is carrying a concealed deadly weapon pursuant to a license or permit to also be in possession of the license or permit.

The Attorney General is in the process of securing agreements with the appropriate officials in certain other states which will, when completed, permit persons who have a concealed deadly weapon license or permit issued by one of those states to lawfully possess a concealed deadly weapon while visiting or traveling through Delaware. Similarly, Delawareans will be able to possess a concealed deadly weapon while visiting or traveling through those states. However, as of today Delaware does not recognize the concealed deadly weapon licenses or permits issued by states other than those listed above, and these states do not recognize Delaware's concealed deadly weapons licenses as valid.

As agreements are completed with other states this web page will be updated accordingly.

http://attorneygeneral.delaware.gov/crime/concealedweapons.shtml

OK?

Sam1911
January 21, 2010, 02:29 PM
Persons who have a concealed deadly weapons license or permit issued by one of the states listed above will be able to lawfully possess a concealed deadly weapon while visiting or traveling through Delaware.

O.k. So if he is a person who has a concealed deadly weapons license or permit issued by one of those states, he's ok.

That's what I thought we said from the beginning?

I've read it twice, no, four times. That's all I see that's pertinent. It doesn't say "Persons, who are residents of another state and who have..." it just says, "Persons who have ..."

Where does it say that Delawarians holding a permit from another state (only) may NOT carry in DE on that permit? It doesn't, in these paragraphs. Maybe it's in a different section.

-Sam

rmfnla
January 21, 2010, 02:48 PM
Quote:
Can you get a Florida permit if you are not a resident of that state?



Yes.
How does one go about this?

The Bushmaster
January 21, 2010, 03:20 PM
Missouri's laws keep lookin' better...Sorry Delaware....

rtroha
January 21, 2010, 03:38 PM
However, as of today Delaware does not recognize the concealed deadly weapon licenses or permits issued by states other than those listed below, and these states do not recognize Delaware's concealed deadly weapons licenses as valid.

OHIO

At least part of this is out-of-date. Ohio and Delaware have a reciprocity agreement.

http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/files/Publications/Publications-for-Law-Enforcement/Concealed-Carry-Publications/Concealed-Carry/2007-Delaware-Concealed-Carry-Reciprocity-Agreemen

Delaware_Dan
January 21, 2010, 03:48 PM
The Attorney General is in the process of securing agreements with the appropriate officials in certain other states which when completed, permit persons who have a concealed deadly weapon license or permit issued by one of those states to lawfully possess a concealed deadly weapon while visiting or traveling through Delaware.


I understand that it is a little vague, but it says visiting or traveling through, not residing.

Feel free to contact Beau Bidins office directly, they will tell you the same thing that they told me, which I have been telling you from the start.

Sam1911
January 21, 2010, 03:57 PM
Visiting or traveling through, not residing.

That's IT? That's the single point of the law that makes it illegal for a DE resident to carry on an out-of-state non-res. permit?

I can see how it could be interpreted that way...I guess...maybe.

Wow. A thin strand, indeed.

I'd ask the OP to take that to his friend at the A.G.'s office and get a decision on whether such a thing is prosecutable.

I'm guessing no, still.

But, in the end, my rear isn't on the line over it.

-Sam

rmfnla
January 21, 2010, 03:59 PM
See here for the info.Scroll down to FL:

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/NonResidentPermits.pdf
Thanks, Johnny!

Delaware_Dan
January 21, 2010, 04:10 PM
That's IT? That's the single point of the law that makes it illegal for a DE resident to carry on an out-of-state non-res. permit?

Last I checked, a simple point of the law is all it takes.

I can see how it could be interpreted that way...I guess...maybe.


You are not the one who would be interpreting the law. This is the home state of Joe Biden, (sorry guys, don't take it out on Delaware) and a conviction would be made.


If you would like, we can agree to disagree, but I have lived here a long time, and I know my state laws.

wishin
January 21, 2010, 04:38 PM
Picked this up from another THR post. Off post and a different state, but related from the viewpoint of arbitrary policies, decisions and rulings of other states.

http://www.newingtongunex.com/articles/grief_over_guns.htm

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=499665

wishin
January 21, 2010, 08:05 PM
I'd ask the OP to take that to his friend at the A.G.'s office and get a decision on whether such a thing is prosecutable

Since we can reasonably assume that his lawyer best buddy in the AG's office is not hanging him out to dry by shooting from the hip, that should have already happened. He surely would have read the statute when the question was raised. I guess it wouldn't hurt to confirm it though.

Delaware_Dan
January 21, 2010, 08:05 PM
The Attorney General is in the process of securing agreements with the appropriate officials in certain other states which when completed, permit persons who have a concealed deadly weapon license or permit issued by one of those states to lawfully possess a concealed deadly weapon while visiting or traveling through Delaware.


Pursuant to 11 Del.C. ' 1441(j), as of July 11, 2003 It's DE law not just something Beau Biden said.

I'm going to go by a Biden's declaration? Get real.


He's the Attorney General and I would go by his declaration, especially since it's the law.

The link to the actual law is one of my posts.

Delaware_Dan
January 21, 2010, 08:19 PM
If we can't agree to disagree than we are just bickering back and forth. That's not why we are here. I happen to know the DE state laws, and if you don't want to trust "some guy" on the internet I don't blame you. The law is vague, yes, but as a DE resident you still can't carry in DE without a DE permit. Let's put this to bed already.

Delaware Ken
January 21, 2010, 08:26 PM
As someone who recently acquired a Delaware CCW permit. I didn’t feel that it was that big of an inconvenience. From the time I took the CCW Class, filled out the required paperwork which included five character references, applied for the criminal background check, and posted the notice in a local paper, it took about a month and a half to receive my permit.
There was never any interview, or appearing before a judge required in the process. I just dropped the paperwork off at the local County Courthouse, and the permit was mailed to me.

Delaware_Dan
January 21, 2010, 08:35 PM
Thanks Johnny

Sam1911
January 21, 2010, 11:51 PM
Sam1911 can do wants he wants.He's very independent.

Naah, I just live in PA and don't have to care what the DE A.G. may or may not decide their law says about their residents.

But, I sure am curious.

-Sam

Sam1911
January 21, 2010, 11:55 PM
There was never any interview, or appearing before a judge required in the process. I just dropped the paperwork off at the local County Courthouse, and the permit was mailed to me.

That's cool! If you want to you could write to the folks who run Handgunlaw.us and tell tehm. They may adjust their DE page to explain that some parts of the process may or may not be required, depending on your location.

(BTW: I sort of grew up in Seaford. Howdy (ex) neighbor!)

-Sam

Dimis
January 22, 2010, 01:28 AM
wow im really late to the thread
i live in delaware as well and when i took my Utah CCW class i was told that it wouldnt be recognized in delaware as my only permit and that i would have to aquire a delaware permit to CCDW in this state no matter the recipricity or recognition

so i would only assume the same for florida

the Delaware permit process can be a bit of a hastle but for most of us its more a finantial burden than anything else

oh and to the people saying that having my information in the paper will advertise where gun owners live...
most criminals wont go near a gun owners house more than... once

Sam1911
January 22, 2010, 08:47 AM
most criminals wont go near a gun owners house more than... once
I applaud that sentiment, but how then do you explain all the stolen guns? There's plenty of folks here on THR who have told of having their guns stolen when they were at work or otherwise away.

Sure it's risky, but if someone sees an advertisement in the paper saying "upstanding citizen who owns guns wants to carry them and lives at 1234 Street Road, Townville, DE," it sure isn't hard to figure out how to pay that address a visit when that upstanding citizen is off at his paying job.

Get a good safe and a security system, and make sure you have insurance to cover your guns. Good advice anyway, but especially if you're advertising.

-Sam

Dimis
January 22, 2010, 01:34 PM
well sam the basic mentality in delaware (at least the folks i know who own guns) tend to learn to use them

plus i live in the woods with a nice clear area and dogs and those infared driveway detectors so if someones here i WILL know about it

ive never had an insident that i can recall that i didnt know someone was in my yard (even just a neighbor kid who lost a ball)

i dont mind the "invitation" with my newspaper add

most the criminals around here are terrified of a gun owner
by nature most of them are idiots or cowards not the "big city" criminal masterminds

i have no kids in the house and all of my firearms are within a few yards of myself and my girlfriend in the bedroom so come on in make a noise in the middle of the night... i just hope your plan is better than mine lol

Sam1911
January 22, 2010, 01:58 PM
well sam the basic mentality in delaware (at least the folks i know who own guns) tend to learn to use them
O...k... So, that puts you on a different footing than those of us from other places? Is there a tactical home-defense training program they're putting all the kids through these days? I don't remember that from my high school days...

And, if there is, how does this protect your guns, excatly, while you're off at your job? Hey, I'm sitting here at work while someone's loading my safe into a pickup truck. But I sure know how to use my guns! :uhoh: :rolleyes:

plus i live in the woods with a nice clear area and dogs and those infared driveway detectors so if someones here i WILL know about it

ive never had an insident that i can recall that i didnt know someone was in my yard (even just a neighbor kid who lost a ball)
O.k. So maybe that's true. Again, what are you going to do about it if you aren't there? Insurance might cover it if you don't have many guns, but is this a GOOD thing?

And what about the other citizens in your area who aren't quite as well prepared? Is it o.k. for them to have to wave the "good stuff here" sign?

i dont mind the "invitation" with my newspaper add
Really? "Don't mind," as in "I'll live with it because it's the best we've got for the moment?" Or "Don't mind," as in, "I think this is a GOOD thing? I'd choose to put my interests, beliefs, and hobbies into the public view?"

most the criminals around here are terrified of a gun owner
by nature most of them are idiots or cowards not the "big city" criminal mastermindsDo you know a lot of them? Is this what they tell you? Or is this common "rural knowledge" about criminals? You know what they say about "common knowlege" -- it isn't worth a big, steaming "Joe Biden."

And what if "most" are? If there are 1,000 too dumb to read the paper, but 1 who's smart about it? How many do you think it will take?

i have no kids in the house and all of my firearms are within a few yards of myself and my girlfriend in the bedroom so come on in make a noise in the middle of the night... i just hope your plan is better than mine lolYes, yes, defending the home front with guns a'blazin'. Very romantic. But any criminal smart enough to scan the classifieds for usable tidbits of info, is also smart enough to go shopping while you (or your neighbors, or whomever) is off at work.

And, even if you do successfully defend the home front, that's not a GOOD thing. Even righteous self-defense can ruin your life in more than one way. We want to avoid these things, not yell, "BRING IT ON!"

Again, are you telling me that it's more worth than worth while to put up with the drawbacks so that you may legally carry? Heck, I completely agree with you! It sure is! We have no disagreement, there.

Or are you defending the state's requirements? Are you saying that this is a worthwile, reasonable, Constitutionally valid, and acceptable arrangment, that accomplishes realistic goals, without serious detriments? If that's the case, than we're absolutely at odds.

-Sam

ChaoSS
January 22, 2010, 02:04 PM
Everyone giving Delaware Dan a hard time needs to look at the law themselves. He is absolutely right.

The law that says that you can't do that is the law that says it's illegal to carry concealed. That is a very big law.

Now, of course, there are exceptions to this law. It is incumbent on you to find an exception that applies to you, not on the law to find a law that you are breaking, because there is that very major law that you can be charged with.

The law that permits carry based on out of state permits is as follows:
Notwithstanding any other provision of this Code to the contrary, the State of Delaware shall give full faith and credit and shall otherwise honor and give full force and effect to all licenses/permits issued to the citizens of other states where those issuing states.... blah blah blah

It's very clear. "Licenses/permits issued to the citizens of other states". Not licenses issued on an out of state basis to citizens of this state".

This exception doesn't apply to you, so unless you meet the requirements of another section, such as getting an in state license, you are breaking the law if you carry concealed. It is not very complicated, it took me all of 5 minutes of searching to find that, perhaps the rest of you should have taken that time instead of attacking Delaware Dan.

Sam1911
January 22, 2010, 02:16 PM
I see DEDan's point, and agree that it may be correct. It took some digging to come up with the exact language that nails it down, but if our lay-persons' interpretations are sound, it appears to achieve that effect. Now, I'd still say it's worth soliciting an attorney's opinion (even better would be that of the State A.G., if they would be so obliging), as I don't trust "us" (including me) to be applying the exact legal understanding.

Dan really worked to find something relavant and I'm almost convinced that he did.

If I was a DE resident, I'd probably call an attorney for an interpretation of the matter before I pursued it either way. (Fortunately... I'm not! :D)

-Sam

nachosgrande
January 22, 2010, 03:26 PM
I'm going to trust other people's interpretation of the law. I'm an engineer, so reading over this stuff just pisses me off. I swear they get fifth graders to write this stuff. You should have to take one semester of technical writing in order to legally write legislation. I just like things to be black and white and basically what they are saying is "go ahead, conceal with the FL license and when you get caught, we'll determine if it's legal or not". They like to leave things open ended for their own advantages. Those of you that say that it's clear, don't be so sure, my wife is a lawyer, and she said it by no means states anywhere that in state residents can't carry with an out of state permit. My best friend who is an attorney in the AG's office concurs. It simply does not address the issue.

It doesn't make sense to me for two reasons. First, when you submit your references, I've been told they have to be people you've known for a substantial period of time or they will deny it. This means if you are new to the state, get ready to wait 10 years to get your permit. That just doesn't sound right to me. Also, because Delaware is such a small state, but has so many jobs, I know hundreds of people (and I'm sure there's thousands more) that live on the state line in either MD, NJ, or PA. These people live, work, hang out with friends, do everything but sleep in DE. So, according to state law, they can get a FL permit and carry in DE. That doesn't make sense to me, giving advantages to non tax paying out of state residents.

ChaoSS
January 22, 2010, 04:12 PM
nachosgrande, go back and read my last post. You don't need to find something that says you can't do it, the law clearly states that you can't carry concealed without certain exceptions (such as law enforcement, or those with the carry permit).

The exception for those with permits from other states clearly states "citizens of other states". If you choose to get the Florida permit and carry concealed, you are in violation of your state's concealed carry law and subject to whatever penalties come with such a violation.

Everyone who's interpretation of the law says you can do this simply believes that there is no law against it. Clearly, they have ignored the law which states that you can not carry concealed.

navyretired 1
January 22, 2010, 09:04 PM
I can't answer for Fl or DE but my CCW is from Utah and is good in 33 states as a reciprical permit.
Contact Dick Cady certified instructor for Kansas, Utah, Florida and Missouri At richard.cady@att.net and I'm sure he can quote the law on Fl CCW in DE.

mg82
March 23, 2011, 10:23 PM
Old post, but I have a DE CCW and it is not as hard to get as it sounds, I did not go in front of a judge or AG investigator. It is a felony to carry concealed in DE w/out a permit. Not worth the risk in my opinion.

Tom Fury
March 24, 2011, 05:23 AM
While there may be a loophole in the law, the interpretation of that law would be in the hands of the judge in the court you were facing after being arrested by a cop who might not be aware of the loophole, or may have been instructed that in his jurisdiction, it was thought that you really couldn't apply it that way; in any case this means after being arrested, going to jail, making bail, paying an attorneys' fee to go to the judge and explain it to him; not my idea of how I wish to participate in this debate.

Kentucky state law on firearms in vehicles states that storage in "any factory installed receptacle in the car" was legal, not just the glovebox. That should include the map pocket on the back of the passenger seat, where I had slipped my gun so it would be out of sight when I went into the Dunkin Donuts. In Kenton County, they don't know that; I followed the above outlined course for the privilege of having my attorney explain it to the judge; $1500 in legal fees and a large scratch on my early run Combat Commander from the police property room to get it thrown out of court.

Not worth it.

I would not choose to use my day in court to argue the loophole.

Cheers, TF

jbrown50
March 24, 2011, 09:57 AM
The Attorney General is in the process of securing agreements with the appropriate officials in certain other states which will, when completed, permit persons who have a concealed deadly weapon license or permit issued by one of those states to lawfully possess a concealed deadly weapon while visiting or traveling through Delaware.

DelawareDan is right. It's how "persons" "visiting or traveling through" is interpreted. If it said "non-residents" instead of "persons" then an argument could be made otherwise.

Sam1911 is very right though. I don't understand why some of you Delaware resisdents are defending the convoluted process that you have to go through to get a permit. If it's simply that you're happy just to be able to get a permit then that's ridiculous.

The process is designed to dissuade you from going through it. It puts your home at risk of being burglarized and your guns at risk of being stolen and used for criminal purposes. Don't make the mistake of underestimating criminals. They aren't all cowards, they aren't all stupid and they can read a newspaper. They're just morally deficient. They are familiar with the police's response times to requests to investigate a home alarm. They also know that dogs are territorial. Let the dog out of it's home or yard and it becomes much less of a threat.

Hardware
March 24, 2011, 02:08 PM
Just open carry already. No permit required.

A few years back there was a move to change the law from may issue to shall issue. There was a kerfuffle when the bluebloods got their knickers in a twist and the change stalled and died in committee. A former AG opined in the New Journal that open carry was legal in Delaware and anyone who wanted to was welcome to strap on a gun and go about as they please.

Of course, several police departments hadn't heard about this. It caused a bit of a ruckus when people actually started carrying. I open carry and it's not a big deal. Inconvenient in cold weather though.

As already pointed out the way the law is written people who have recently moved to Delaware are excluded from obtaining a CCW due to the requirements to obtain the permit.

hermannr
March 24, 2011, 04:59 PM
I think that the requirement to post in the Newspaper is an invasion of privacy, and I think that could be successfully challanged. (if you like to feed the lawyers) Consider the squabble in IL>

There is a good possibility that the silence on the non-resident ccw may very well be intentional here. Like in an intentional loophole for those politicos that do not want to publish they carry?

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