Twist Rate .308


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52grain
January 20, 2010, 06:12 PM
In .223 the rate of twist has a significant impact on bullet selection. Is this the case with .308? Remington's .308 offerings all seem to have 1:12 twist rates. Savage has 1:10. Planned usage is 200-600 yard target shooting.

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Uncle Mike
January 20, 2010, 06:17 PM
In .223 the rate of twist has a significant impact on bullet selection. Is this the case with .308?

Twist rate has a significant impact on all calibers!

The 1/10" twist will offer you more latitude in bullet weights. Don't buy into the 'over spun' theory.....myth!

aubie515
January 20, 2010, 06:31 PM
I agree with Uncle Mike....I also favor 1:10 twist for 308.

SlamFire1
January 20, 2010, 07:12 PM
I order 308 match barrels with the 1:10 twist.

This is the original 30-40 krag and 30-06 twist. The M14 came out with a 1:12 twist, but was to be only shot with 150's or 174 match.

The 1:10 twist will shoot 125 through 200 grain bullets with match grade accuracy. Probably would work well with 220's and 240's, but I have not tried those. The 1:12 is becomes marginal at the 190 grain level.

It is my considered opinion that Savage knows what they are doing, and Remington does not.

It is possible that Remington no longer has the corporate memory or firearms enthusiasts are not involved in the product design.

dakotasin
January 20, 2010, 07:18 PM
most of my 308's are 12-twisted. if i could have dictated the twist rate on them, they would all be 10-twist. that said, i have settled on the 165-168 grain bullet weights for all 308 win rifles, and i don't have any mis-givings about not having more 10-twists.

Uncle Mike
January 20, 2010, 07:27 PM
It is my considered opinion that Savage knows what they are doing, and Remington does not.

I'l agree, except with the 7mm-08, 11.5" twist they settled on! :banghead: :barf:

It is possible that Remington no longer has the corporate memory or firearms enthusiasts are not involved in the product design.

yup, too busy counting money they aren't making! :neener:

thomis
January 20, 2010, 07:51 PM
This is a great thread considering that I was thinking of posting a very similar question. This is also helping me to decide on the Savage. The Sako barrels offer 1:11 I think, for those that want something btw 10 and 12...
cheers
thomis

JDGray
January 20, 2010, 07:57 PM
My 10FP sure throws 155-168gr bullets well, and with the 10" twist can venture up to the heavies, if I want. I see Savage uses a 12" in their F/TR target series, and the Palma 308 uses 13", must be some method to their madness:)

Buzzard
January 20, 2010, 08:09 PM
Just for reference, a page from the Lilja Barrels site...

http://www.riflebarrels.com/products/caliber_twist_rates.htm

I got so tired of looking it up every time I had a question about twist rates I printed two copies. One to stick inside the cover of Cartridges of the World, and the other for my general shooting stuff binder.

joed
January 20, 2010, 08:37 PM
I have an older Winchester 70 Stealth with 1:12 twist. It works well with 168 gr bullets but I'm unsure of the 175 gr, it may or may not shoot those well. Hasn't hindered me though as the 168 gr does all I need. If I need heavier I'll reach for the .300 H&H.

52grain
January 20, 2010, 08:40 PM
OK, so I like the 700 action and the 700P in particular. I see three ways to proceed:

-A have custom rifle built similar to the 700P with a 1:10 twist built by a gunsmith that knows what he is doing. (advantage quality components, disadvantage $$)
-Buy a 700P live with the 1:12 twist until it's time to rebarrel. Pay a gunsmith to true the action and fix whatever else might ail it.
-Buy a 10FP (with the HS Precision stock) and live with the Savage action. Don't get me wrong there's nothing really wrong with the Savage action, its' just that I like the Remington action better.

Also, it looks like CZ offers 1:12 twists on all of their 550 varmints. I took a look at what match grade cartridges are available. Most of them are 168 and 175 grain, the largest was 180 grain, but Sierra does offer .308 diameter Matchking bullets all the way up to 240 grain. What are you guys using for 400 and 600 yard shooting? What is the practical limit of bullet weight for .308 Win?

Uncle Mike
January 20, 2010, 08:52 PM
I see Savage uses a 12" in their F/TR target series, and the Palma 308 uses 13", must be some method to their madness

I think it's called the 155gr Lapua Scenar madness.

dakotasin
January 20, 2010, 11:46 PM
What are you guys using for 400 and 600 yard shooting?
168 a-max's

What is the practical limit of bullet weight for .308 Win?
don't know, but i do know the guys running the 155 scenars at distance are getting a pretty strong gathering. if i were to take a stab at it, i'd say a 308 doesn't have enough oomph to justify much beyond 175 grain bullets...

MTMilitiaman
January 21, 2010, 12:17 AM
The .308 is as affected, adversely or otherwise, by twist rate as the .223, or any other caliber.

The 1:12 twist would be intended mostly for bullets of 150 gr or less. You find it mostly in varminter rifles and battle rifles intended to shoot light for caliber fragnibles on varmints or still modest for caliber FMJ ball ammo, respectively.

The 1:10 can handle pretty much anything normally encountered in the caliber. In the .308 Win/7.62x51 this would normally include everything up to about the 175 gr SMK.

My Springfield Armory M1A has a medium contour 1:11 they claim will handle up to 175 gr as well. I've never shot anything over 168 gr in it.

The standard ball round is perfectly capable of doing 600 yards, but for that distance I would still prefer the faster twist rate and heavier (longer) 168 amd 175 gr SMK. Go with 1:10 if that is an option.

Jim Watson
January 21, 2010, 12:42 AM
Most accounts I have seen say the 12 twist will do fine with 175 grain boattails.
Mr Berger thinks a 13 will do for his.
http://www.bergerbullets.com/Products/Target%20Bullets.html

My factory Savage 12 was OK with 175s, no better with 155s, not great with anything.
When I replaced it, I played super safe and got a 10 because an 11 was not available in the configuration I wanted. Next one will be a 12.

Rob96
January 21, 2010, 04:42 AM
I wonder what twist the military Remington 700 sniper rifles use? I just read of the longest recorded sniper shot with a 700 in 308. A Marine sniper took out an insurgent at a lasered 1,375yds. So much for those that say the 308 is a 800yd gun.

MTMilitiaman
January 21, 2010, 01:12 PM
It's just like the 5.56. You buy an AR with a 1:9 twist, you take a gamble. Some of them will shooting the 75-77 gr rounds. Some of them won't. If you have no interest in the longer/heavier rounds, this is fine. If you're like me and prefer these rounds, you probably aren't a fan of gambling and simply insist on a faster twist rate. Thus, I prefer my .308s to have a 1:11 twist or faster. It isn't critical, but if I have a choice, I'll go for the faster twist rate. That goes for pretty much everything I shoot, because my preference for heavy for caliber projectiles holds true for pretty much everything.

jbech123
January 21, 2010, 01:17 PM
OK, so I like the 700 action and the 700P in particular. I see three ways to proceed:

-A have custom rifle built similar to the 700P with a 1:10 twist built by a gunsmith that knows what he is doing. (advantage quality components, disadvantage $$)
-Buy a 700P live with the 1:12 twist until it's time to rebarrel. Pay a gunsmith to true the action and fix whatever else might ail it.
-Buy a 10FP (with the HS Precision stock) and live with the Savage action. Don't get me wrong there's nothing really wrong with the Savage action, its' just that I like the Remington action better.

or if you like remington you could buy a mil-spec 5R, it has an 11.25 twist. I shoot 175's and 190's most times. Incidentally, I also shoot ultramax 110gr out of it for coyotes and it shoots those extremely well. Of course th BC on the 110's suck so I don't use them for long range target smacking.

jbech123
January 21, 2010, 01:30 PM
I wonder what twist the military Remington 700 sniper rifles use?
Army is 11.25. Not sure on marines.
I just read of the longest recorded sniper shot with a 700 in 308. A Marine sniper took out an insurgent at a lasered 1,375yds. So much for those that say the 308 is a 800yd gun. Just cause something happened once doesn't make it a trend. There are much better 1300 yard rounds than the 308.

USSR
January 21, 2010, 02:01 PM
Twist rate on the .308 (in relation to the various bullet weights available) is not as critical as the .223. Despite some of the internet "chatter", the 1-12" twist rate works with the heavy bullets. I shoot a lot of 190SMK's out of mine, and I know guys who have used 210gr bullets with success.

Don

Rob96
January 21, 2010, 03:59 PM
Just cause something happened once doesn't make it a trend. There are much better 1300 yard rounds than the 308.

Don't recall saying it is a trend. It just pretty much shows that in capable hands it works.

DRYHUMOR
January 21, 2010, 06:51 PM
Older Remington Senderos had a 1:10 twist IIRC. Early to mid 90's.

kis2
January 21, 2010, 06:54 PM
klineia,

i had a similar decision matrix built (700p vs custom 700 vs etc) and came up with 700p, and invest as i go, particularly thinking of when it's time to rebarrel. that way i got what i wanted, but was able to spread the cost out over time a bit.

not sure what twist i'll go with when the time comes, but i'm likely to call up whatever company i have and mind and talk with them for a few hours about it.

good luck!

lopezni
January 21, 2010, 08:05 PM
someone I know who shoots a custom savage .308 in 1000yrs bench competition, says he uses a 200gr 7.62mm bullet. I'm not sure what twist rate the barrel uses, but he spent $300 on the barrel alone, uses the barrel nut wrench and headspace gauge to do the swap himself. Supposedly it has a higher BC than any 6.5mm bullet, yet they are still dominating competitions.

Shadow-Warrior
January 22, 2010, 06:36 AM
I have a SAKO TRG that shoots 1/8" (5) shot groups @ 100 yds. I also handload 168 SMK's using 44 gr Varget. The TRG has a 1:11 Twist. I also shoot the 155 gr Scenars too.

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z21/shadow-warror/TRG-1.jpg

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z21/shadow-warror/SAKO-TRG-2.jpg

Mike

Quickdraw Limpsalot
January 22, 2010, 07:03 AM
Uhh... my 700 SPS Stainless in .308 is 1:10 twist.

Remington offers 1:12 or 1:10, depending on the rifle.

Bart B.
January 22, 2010, 08:54 AM
With the .308 Win., here's the twist rates for various boattail match bullet weights giving best accuracy with max loads based on proper testing:

135 gr, 1:16
150 gr, 1:14
155 gr, 1:13
168 gr, 1:12
180 gr, 1:11.5
190 gr, 1: 11
200 gr, 1:10
220 gr, 1:9
240 gr, 1:8

Factory rifles typically have faster twists for all probable bullet weights that'll be used in them. This gives acceptable accuracy over a wide range of bullet weights.

The_Hammer_Man
January 23, 2010, 09:04 PM
There is also another very good reason why some of the more "vintage" battle rifles had 1 in 12" barrels.

Automatic fire....1 in 12"= extended barrel life. Kind of an important feature when you're a government trying to outfit 10,000 of your friends and neighbors aint it?

Lower bullet weight also meant lower levels of breakage and wear on the receivers and critical small parts during extended fire missions. Also meant you could pack a few more rounds into your jockies before "heading into the weeds".

blackops
January 27, 2010, 03:07 AM
Shadow, that rifle/scope is really something special!

roc1
January 27, 2010, 08:58 AM
My Remington new ADL is 1-10 according to the factory
roc1

52grain
January 27, 2010, 09:08 PM
Does anyone offer the 155 gr scenar in a factory load?

NWCP
January 27, 2010, 09:19 PM
I originally thought my CZ550 FS was a 1:12. Then I kept coming across information stating they were 1:11.5 twist rates. All I know for certain is my CZ likes most ammo from 147 grain NATO surplus to 168 grain factory loads. If it's happy I'm happy.

dubbleA
January 27, 2010, 09:51 PM
Does anyone offer the 155 gr scenar in a factory load?


Yes, I believe Corbon offers it.

Bart B.
January 28, 2010, 07:33 AM
If one checks Savage web site, they'll learn that their Palma rifle's barrel has a 1:13 twist in its barrel (which I believe is listed at 24" but really is 30" like their F/TR rifle). Their F/TR rifle uses a 1:12 twist.

JMatters
February 2, 2010, 02:38 PM
FWIW, My 'smith built me a Rem600 based medium range (300 yd) BR gun using a Kreiger 24" 12 twist tube. Now, I'm NOT a real good shooter, but this gun has me thinking that with a better scope I can compete with anyone at 100 or 600.

It was built specifically for the BIB 187 gr flat base bullet, and my first time out with it at 600 yds, I managed a 2.9" group in a variable wind. (Like I said, not the best shooter, but ok for 1st time at 600yds and only a 24x scope.)

Check out the Ballistic Idiot's site; he lists the optimum twist rates for his bullets. I'm using the 155 flat base at 100 yards, since it is a lot easier on the old shoulder, and it seems a tad better for 100. Both are 10 ogive designs.

52grain
February 2, 2010, 09:34 PM
It was built specifically for the BIB 187 gr flat base bullet, and my first time out with it at 600 yds, I managed a 2.9" group in a variable wind. (Like I said, not the best shooter, but ok for 1st time at 600yds and only a 24x scope.)

2.9" at 600 yards is better than 0.5 MOA. That's really good.

Boba Fett
February 2, 2010, 09:59 PM
I just read of the longest recorded sniper shot with a 700 in 308. A Marine sniper took out an insurgent at a lasered 1,375yds. So much for those that say the 308 is a 800yd gun.


Just because a round can reach out to X distance and some highly trained expert sniper with thousands of dollars of equipment and an extra guy spotting for him made the shot one time doesn't mean that we rewrite the books on what to expect from a caliber. Consistency is key in determining a rounds effective range.

People aren't saying the 308 can't go past 800 yards, but that it doesn't perform as constantly past that range.


http://www.snipercentral.com/308.htm
The US Army preaches an 800 meter maximum effective range for the .308, the USMC preaches a 1000 yard (915 meter) max effective range. While I have made hits at 1000 meters and beyond with the .308, I would have to agree with the Army and say that 800 meters is the limit for RELIABLE hits. After that the .308 is dropping like a rock and is inconsistent.

ricehombre
February 3, 2010, 06:56 AM
Don't forget the twist requirements are related to bullet length and not weight. Your all copper bullets and some long range pointed bullets are going to require a faster twist than the same weight standard jacketed bullet. On the other hand, sometimes you can get by with a slower twist if you use a round nose or semi-spitzer style heavy bullet.

Rob96
February 4, 2010, 07:33 AM
Just because a round can reach out to X distance and some highly trained expert sniper with thousands of dollars of equipment and an extra guy spotting for him made the shot one time doesn't mean that we rewrite the books on what to expect from a caliber. Consistency is key in determining a rounds effective range.


Didn't say it is the new standard. Just saying that in the right hands, the weapon is capable.

glazer1972
February 4, 2010, 01:02 PM
1:10 would be my preference.

NCdrummer
February 4, 2010, 09:00 PM
I'll follow the USAMU standard of 1:11.25 used in the M24. I have the civilian version Remington 700SS 5R .308 and it really shoots. Anything from 150 grain Noslers to 175 grain Sierras will group in one ragged hole at 100 yards. Different points of impact obviously, but they all group well. At Eglin AFB Commander's private pig/deer hunt last weekend I shot a beautiful 8-point buck at 416 yards, lasered and verified by FWC guys. Load was Nosler AccuBond 165 over 47 grains RE15. It's a very accurate rifle!

JMatters
February 11, 2010, 06:08 PM
I should mention, the smith who built it was Bill Shehane. He deserves the bulk of the credit for building a good shootin rig. In all honesty, I never thought about that group being under a half-minute. But even my worst group was just over a MOA; with a nasty flier from a missed wind change. Most everyone else there seemed a bit better!

joed
February 11, 2010, 06:17 PM
I have a Win 70 Stealth with 1:12 twist. I have no complaints but I also limit the gun to 168 gr bullets. My opinion is the .308 was not meant for heavier stuff as the velocity really falls off when you start talking about 180 gr bullets.

Also see a lot of the long range .308 shooters using the 1:12 twist.

Bart B.
February 11, 2010, 07:42 PM
Joed says:I have a Win 70 Stealth with 1:12 twist. I have no complaints but I also limit the gun to 168 gr bullets. My opinion is the .308 was not meant for heavier stuff as the velocity really falls off when you start talking about 180 gr bullets.
Also see a lot of the long range .308 shooters using the 1:12 twist. When the M14 was the service rifle used by some military teams winning matches and setting records, they oft times used 180-gr. match bullets in those 22-inch 1:12 twist barrels. Yes, maximum loads were needed but they remained supersonic all the way through paper at 1000 yards.

The military teams using converted Garands with 7.62 NATO chambered 24-inch 1:12 twist barrels shot 190-gr. match bullets with max loads. Virtually as accurate as bolt action match rifles, they often out-shot the M14's lots of times with those 190's the M14 couldn't use.

One can use heavy bullets in a .308 Win. case with 1:12 twists.

Zak Smith
February 11, 2010, 10:08 PM
My 24" 1:12 shoots 155's up to 190's just fine. Lapua has a 155gr factory load obviously.

My load of choice is a 155gr Scenar at about 2925 fps using Varget. It's as good as anything in .308 to 1000 yards.

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