Do you carry a Backup Gun? If so, where?


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David E
January 22, 2010, 04:27 AM
Like the title says, do you carry a backup gun?

How and where do you carry it?

Left or right pants pocket ? Vest pocket? On the belt, weakside? Shoulder rig? Maybe in a holster shirt? Ankle ? Somewhere else?

Brand or type of holster used ? (if any. if none, please specify)

Type of gun and caliber?

I'm trying to gather some data for a future range experiment.

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CDW4ME
January 22, 2010, 07:12 AM
Strong side pocket in a Desantis Nemesis holster.
Typically a 38 J-frame or a Kel-Tec 380.

DeepSouth
January 22, 2010, 07:24 AM
Left ankle.
I normally carry in my pocket, so when I carry a BUG I put it on my ankle so I can reach it while sitting.

Landric
January 22, 2010, 09:08 AM
Left front pants pocket, Kramer pocket holster, S&W 37-2 DAO Airweight.

Rexster
January 22, 2010, 10:20 AM
1. Usually, but I don't call it a back-up so much as an alternate gun.

2. Usually, in Safepacker from The Wilderness.com.

3. Ditto

4. Ditto

5. SIG P229, same as the "primary" gun.

Edited to add: Then, there is a blade or two.

Screaming .357G
January 22, 2010, 10:28 AM
Sub compact Glock 27 .40 cal on ankle for backup and easy access while sitting. Les Baer TRS 1911 or Glock 23 as Primary.

M2 Carbine
January 22, 2010, 10:33 AM
Unless you count the car guns, No I don't carry a backup.

Personally I consider the car guns as backups.

Walkalong
January 22, 2010, 01:16 PM
Not usually.

The two guns I carry most would be considered BUGs by many, but when I carry a 1911, I don't usually carry a BUG.

Autolycus
January 22, 2010, 01:17 PM
I carry 2 Glock 22 pistols in an Alessi shoulder holster. Then on my right hip is my primary Glock 23 with another one on my left hip. It is so that if I cannot draw my right hand strongside Glock 23 I can draw it from there. Then on each of my ankles resides a Glock 27.

Sock Puppet
January 22, 2010, 01:20 PM
Not I.

David E
January 22, 2010, 01:23 PM
I carry 2 Glock 22 pistols in an Alessi shoulder holster. Then on my right hip is my primary Glock 23 with another one on my left hip. It is so that if I cannot draw my right hand strongside Glock 23 I can draw it from there. Then on each of my ankles resides a Glock 27.

Yeah, I saw that movie, too......:scrutiny:

NMGonzo
January 22, 2010, 01:38 PM
If I open carry, I can.

If I cc, I can't.

CoRoMo
January 22, 2010, 02:23 PM
Nope, but if/when I ever get around to it, it would probably be in a pocket or on my ankle.

smallbore
January 22, 2010, 05:47 PM
No, just extra ammo for my carry weapon.

smince
January 22, 2010, 05:55 PM
No, not a BUG.

I usually have either a waved Spyderco or Cold Steel knife accessible to my off-hand.

herohog
January 22, 2010, 06:50 PM
Kel-Tec P3AT RF pants pocket as a B.U.G.
AND
Hi-Point C9 9mm in the glovebox.

The Lone Haranguer
January 22, 2010, 07:48 PM
I don't have a specific or dedicated backup gun, but I have experimentally carried my Kahr PM9, in a Mika pocket holster, in the right front pocket, with the primary being a Glock 19 IWB at 4:00. I am still "on the fence" WRT backup guns. The Kahr, when in addition to the other gun and ammo carrier, adds a little more weight than I would like.

hirundo82
January 22, 2010, 08:29 PM
I usually carry a S&W 642 as a BUG. I used to carry it in my weak-side pocket, but recently switched to ankle carry (Desantis ankle rig on inside of left leg) for easier access when I'm seated.

I've been considering buying a Glock 26 to use as a BUG instead, since my primary is either a Glock 17 or 19.

searcher451
January 22, 2010, 08:55 PM
I don't often do it, but when I do, I carry a Beretta Jetfire in my right back pocket. It's strictly a BUG -- a handgun of last resort.

Hotspur
January 22, 2010, 09:45 PM
S&W 442 J Frame in one front pocket

(not going to say which. Paranoia: embrace it!)

wrs840
January 22, 2010, 09:55 PM
LCP (in a nice leather pocket holster, sorry don't remember the maker, it's custom and a gift from my brother) in my strong-side front pants pocket in business-wear, a 442 (in a Blackhawk sise 3) in strong-side front or back pocket at home, in the woods, or on the farm, depending on the pants.

Les

pingpingping
January 22, 2010, 09:55 PM
I keep a rifle in the trunk, so in a sense, my side arm is my back up.

Otony
January 22, 2010, 09:58 PM
Yes, sometimes. Right front pocket or right jacket pocket, depending on weather. I am left-handed, so I want something opposite my OWB holster.

Typically carry a Glock 32 in OWB. If I do carry a BUG it is either a Sterling 302 .22 that has proven to be reliable or an old (1959) Beretta .25, also shown to be reliabe. I keep thinking I should get an NAA .22 Mag mini-revolver, but it all works well so why screw up a good thing?

Rexster
January 22, 2010, 10:03 PM
From 2002 to 2007, I tended to carry an SP101 on each side. The one on the "primary" side was virtually always in an OWB Holster, first a Galco Concealable, then a Milt Sparks PMK. The second one roved around a bit, from ankle to pocket to hip, but I ended up with a lefty PMK, too. Toward the end of that period, a 4" Speed Six on the right side, in a PMK, became more common as the "primary" gun.

earlthegoat2
January 22, 2010, 10:33 PM
I have recently started carrying the Model 60 IWB and the Mini goes in the pocket the J frame used to reside in.

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll66/earlthegoat2/SDC11616.jpg

Trumpetman
January 22, 2010, 11:54 PM
I carry a backup gun most of the time, but sort of in reverse. For example, in shorts and T-shirt weather I'll carry a 7+1 round Kel-tec PF-9 in a home-made pocket holster because it's easy to conceal. But I will also carry a full-sized, 17+1 round 9MM S&W in a paddle holster along with the PF-9 until I have to go inside someplace where it might show. Then I leave the big gun in the glove box, and I still have protection.
I do the same thing with my revolvers. Quite often I carry a 5-shot Rossi .38 Spcl. in my right front pocket, and, at the same time, a 5-shot Ruger SP-101 with magnum loads in a Gun-Mate belt slide holster. The Rossi is slightly lighter, a bit thinner, and has panel grips with a Tyler-T grip adapter, so it's easier to conceal than the SP-101.
It's not that the Kel-tec or the Rossi would be inadequate. I've fired hundreds of rounds through each with no failures of any kind, and they are both accurate at 10 yards. But I still "feel" more secure carrying a better man-stopper whenever possible.

H-D Rider
January 23, 2010, 12:13 AM
Inside the pants holsters. Always semi autos, 380 and up

msb45
January 23, 2010, 12:16 AM
2nd 1911 on the belt IWB and/or 642 on the ankle

David E
January 23, 2010, 12:44 AM
If you guys could also reveal how/where/what your primary is, that'd be great.

It'll help in the upcoming experiment.

herohog
January 23, 2010, 01:32 AM
Kel-Tec P-11 in my Man-Bag (it's a European shoulder bag... it was a gift) :-)

http://herohog.com/images/guns/carry04.jpg

No, it wasn't a gift, I bought it for myself. I am usually in a wheelchair and it is MUCH easier to use a bag than to reach my hip or a pocket! Besides. I can pull it off. I am plenty secure in my manhood!

You can just see my P3AT BUG clipped in my pocket.

LeontheProfessional
January 23, 2010, 01:40 AM
Carry a reliable primary and as a civilian CCP holder I don't think I would ever need a back up gun. much less two. Glock 27 will do just fine. I carry extra mags in the car but that is it. I do understand having a back up as a cop but not an average citizen. I know plenty of cops that don't even carry backups.

LeontheProfessional
January 23, 2010, 01:45 AM
I carry 2 Glock 22 pistols in an Alessi shoulder holster. Then on my right hip is my primary Glock 23 with another one on my left hip. It is so that if I cannot draw my right hand strongside Glock 23 I can draw it from there. Then on each of my ankles resides a Glock 27.
Do you wear a trench coat with this setup?

Girodin
January 23, 2010, 01:52 AM
A gun like a LCP is so small and light it certainly doesn't put one out much or take much effort to carry a BUG.

as a civilian CCP holder I don't think I would ever need a back up gun

I highly doubt I'll ever need a primary but I still carry one. I view a BUG as one step further, even less likely to need it but it probably cannot hurt.

I know plenty of cops that don't even carry backups.

I bet they have radios, backup, a vest, and a patrol rifle or shotgun. Maybe a bug is arguably less needed by LEO.

There are many valid arguments for carrying a bug.

JEB
January 23, 2010, 01:56 AM
Kel-Tec P-11 in my Man-Bag (it's a European shoulder bag... it was a gift) :-)

thank you!!! that just made my night!!!!!

Girodin
January 23, 2010, 01:56 AM
Carrying five glocks seems a bit excessive to me. I'm not sure if that was a joke or not. I am also aware of a case where the prosecutor used the presence of multiple guns to show the violent disposition of a heavily armed man looking for a confrontation. I don't imagine a BUG being an issue in a clean shoot. Carrying five glock on all parts of your body, besides being inconvenient, starts looking a little nutty and might cast suspicion on what really happened should you every need one of them.

LeontheProfessional
January 23, 2010, 02:10 AM
If my primary jams I will just clear it which is why I practice clearing jams. I could clear the jam in less time than I could get my back up gun.

Autolycus
January 23, 2010, 02:13 AM
Why is carrying 6 guns considered nutty? Some people say even carrying 1 is nutty. I think that people should be able to carry as many as makes them comfortable. As far as needing a trench coat, nope. My usual coat or a nice Hawaiian shirt works.

LeontheProfessional
January 23, 2010, 02:15 AM
Well just have fun explaining that one to the judge.

Girodin
January 23, 2010, 03:09 AM
Why is carrying 6 guns considered nutty? Some people say even carrying 1 is nutty.

I didn't say it was nutty I said it seems excessive and starts to look a little nutty. Meaning a reasonable person is going to view it as being a little nutty. If you pulled a random sample of 1K people what do you think their opinions on it would be. Even among gun owners or CCW holders it would probably be predominately viewed that way. As you noted some people think one gun is nutty. If you cannot understand why it would seem a little nutty to the average reasonable person then me explaining it probably won't help.

I also think people should be allowed to carry as many as they like. I think there is more downside to it than upside it most any normal situation but I'm not telling anyone what they can or can't do.

SharpsDressedMan
January 23, 2010, 09:42 AM
Isn't silly how we all feel obliged to tell everyone else how to do what they do? Real freedom is having the ability to choose for one's self. Got six guns on ya? big deal. If the self defense situation deemed that you shoot the bad guy, you're probably only going to get to use one or two, unless it's a gang bang. I know a two cops that got taken hostage, and I'll bet they had wished they had a second, or third, gun. And when you get to court, we have the "mind police", who are going to second guess you; the facts of the case be damned. Ain't life wonderful! If we are going to live free, let's try to extend that freedom to others. Golden rule type of thing.

possum
January 23, 2010, 01:36 PM
i do not currently, however after one of the last training courses took, i had a new found appreciation for a bug, and when i do get back to the states and carry again i will be carrying a bug. i am looking at a s&w model 442, either in the weak hand pocket or in an ankle holster.

MCgunner
January 23, 2010, 01:54 PM
Well, I'm not gay, so I don't have a "man bag". I carry in a pocket. If I have a belt gun, I'll have a .38 or .380 or 9 in a pocket. My NAA mini always rides in the off side pocket, admittedly with change which most consider a no-no. But, I'd rather do that than leave it at home. It has the "holster grip" on it. It is back up when I'm pocket carrying. It is 3rd gun when I've got a belt gun.

I really like having the NY reload when I'm carrying my .357 revolver, too. I'll carry that on the belt, my .38 Ultralite in my pocket, and two speed strips full of .38+P that will work in either gun. I have confidence this will handle any situation I might ever be stuck in, or at least as well as my autos carried alone. I do have a high cap 9, but I kinda like .357 Magnum caliber.to any auto caliber short of 10mm.

hexidismal
January 23, 2010, 02:02 PM
I don't normally carry a backup gun, but it happens on occasion. When I do, it can be in a number of positions/holster types. It tends to depend on what clothes I'm wearing really. My standard daily carry is strong side (right hand) OWB , so a backup will be a smaller gun in a shoulder holster, ankle holster, or perhaps most commonly in a small of the back holster made for left hand draw.

Girodin
January 23, 2010, 02:41 PM
And when you get to court, we have the "mind police", who are going to second guess you; the facts of the case be damned.

I'm much more concerned with not getting to court in the first place, i.e. having it ruled a good shoot. That is where reasonable perceptions by the cops, the DA and your credibility play important roles.

There might arguably be more suspicion and doubt cast on someone armed to the teeth. It might come across as you were looking for trouble.

I'll repeat I think people can do what ever they want so long as it is inside the bounds of the law. I'm not telling them not to. Thinking that something is not prudent and not necessary is not the same as telling people what they should do.

David E
January 23, 2010, 04:11 PM
Please, let's not get sidetracked.

Especially since I believe he was pulling a fast one about carrying that many guns.

deputy tom
January 23, 2010, 06:01 PM
Back in the old days I had a Beretta 950BS in a second cuff case on my belt and a Spyderco in my off side front pocket as a gun retention device.Now days no BUG,just as another poster above said a Spyderco or Cold Steel knife in the off side front pocket.YMMV.tom.:cool:

smince
January 23, 2010, 07:07 PM
I know plenty of cops that don't even carry backups. I know plenty of cops who don't even carry off-duty :rolleyes:

Girodin
January 23, 2010, 08:21 PM
Mr. Ayoob's thoughts on the matter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZ29lGSPPV8

Rexster
January 23, 2010, 10:31 PM
I am certainly not gay, but do regularly use a Safepacker, from Thewilderness.com, for the second gun. Let's keep personal attacks OUT of here; I seem to remember that being a rule around here.

FWIW, here in the big city, a man wearing/carrying a small bag is seen as more "European" than gay.

orionengnr
January 23, 2010, 10:45 PM
No. :)

Girodin
January 23, 2010, 10:56 PM
a man wearing/carrying a small bag is seen as more "European" than gay.

As someone who has lived in Europe on various occasions I'm not sure which is worse :neener:

Rexster
January 23, 2010, 11:58 PM
True enough, but if concealment is the main idea, being mistaken for a European means I have succeeded. If I was single, I could certainly pick up chicks; they seem to like Europeans. ;) Better to be hit on by gals than the alternative.

Girodin
January 24, 2010, 01:56 AM
If I was single, I could certainly pick up chicks; they seem to like Europeans.

Until they see their teeth. J/K I love my Euro friends. BTW there the chicks really like Americans.

Elm Creek Smith
January 24, 2010, 03:37 AM
I carry two primary guns. The first primary is a 3 inch RB S&W Model 13 with Bianchi Lightning Grips carried either in a Don Hume JIT strongside or a Don Hume H715M No. 1 1/2 crossdraw. The second primary is a Taurus 85SSUL carried in a Safety Speed Crossdraw or a Don Hume JIT strongside. (It depends on how long my cover garment is.) In the winter, if I'm going to be outside for long periods, one of these is replaced by a 4 inch SB S&W Model 681 in a Bianchi Model 7 either strongside or crossdraw.

I also carry a BUG, a KelTec P32 in a Blackhawk pocket holster, usually in my hip pocket.

As for reloads, lets just say I better not fall into water over my head.

ECS

azyogi
January 24, 2010, 04:50 AM
naa .22wmr in jeans watch pocket [open carry] though it often gets overlooked
holster is from naa came with my BP companion
also carry five rounds in a small leather pouch that came with some 'Wild Turkey' cuff links sometimes carry on beltbuckle also from naa

David E
January 27, 2010, 02:10 AM
You guys ever see how long it takes to draw your BUG ?

Rexster
January 27, 2010, 07:57 AM
If you mean with a timer, no. I have practiced to attain smoothness and efficiency.

If deploying the weapon preemptively, and they are equal weapons, I will start with the second/alternate gun in-hand, so that the one on my hip, in the "primary" holster, becomes the back-up.

If walking through a "bad" area, I may have my hand on a pocketed second/alternate gun, for the fastest draw.

One time, in a shooting class in which our primary and alternate guns were kept loaded, a.k.a. the "hot range" concept, I drew a pocketed SP101 right quickly to finish a sequence of fire, when my Glunck choked.

harmon rabb
January 27, 2010, 09:29 AM
if i'm carrying a BUG, it's my LCP in my pocket, with a larger gun (usually bersa thunder or cz-82) in an IWB holster.

CZ223
January 27, 2010, 09:37 AM
My primary, either a Glock 23 or Kimber Tactical pro II, is carried IWB on my right sight while my BUG, a Ruger LCP, is carried in my left front pocket. Even if I am not carrying my primary it stays in the left front pocket. I shoot it one handed just like I would, should it need to be used in a real fight. If my primary were to go down I doubt I would waste time trying to reholster so it would be in my right hand.

Since I also carry at least one spare mag I have been thinking about having a rig made that would carry a spare mag for my primary and also carry the BUG. It would be OWB on my left side with the mag in the front and the BUG in the rear.

BlisteringSilence
January 27, 2010, 01:16 PM
When I do carry a BUG, it's either a 642 or a Glock 27. Actually, the only time the G27 is a BUG is if I'm out with the sheriff's office. Galco ankle holster, left leg.

You guys ever see how long it takes to draw your BUG ?

Like, with a stopwatch? Nope. Never seen the point. I live in Arkansas, not Beirut. If things are dire enough that I'm pulling out the BUG, time will seem to have stopped anyway.

David E
January 27, 2010, 10:32 PM
Like, with a stopwatch? Nope. Never seen the point.

The point would be to see how long it takes you. Could you reload your primary faster? Seems like that's a good thing to know.

I live in Arkansas, not Beirut.

Yet, you feel compelled to carry not only one gun, but a SECOND gun.....

If things are dire enough that I'm pulling out the BUG, time will seem to have stopped anyway.

For YOU maybe, but not for the badguy(s). He/They are the reason you're having to draw your BUG in the first place............

essayons21
January 28, 2010, 01:57 PM
Drawing a BUG to me is not a timed event. I'm not going to be playing quickdraw with a bad guy. The BUG is for situations where the shooting has already started, and the primary is somehow disabled. At that point I won't be standing squared off at high noon, but hiding behind the best cover available. Also the BUGs carried by most people are not guns to be used in a shootout, but for point blank self defense.

To answer the OP, I carry a P3AT in my weakside (left) front pocket, and a 1911 at 4 o'clock. When it gets hot outside the Kel-tec become my primary and only CC, but stays in the weakside pocket, because that's the position I practice drawing and firing from.

Jonah71
January 28, 2010, 03:00 PM
When wearing a jacket or coat I carry a S&W 4" .38 spec. in a shoulder holster with a compact 9mm or .380 IWB. In warmer weather I keep one of the IWB and a small pocket gun, but not always. Being in a small "Mayberry RFD" type town has kinda changed my habits and maybe made me a bit complacent, which probably isn't good. But I do get in a lot of range time. The biggest danger I face around here is popping over a hill too fast and takng out an Amish horse & buggy.

azyogi
January 28, 2010, 07:54 PM
Try drawing while seated behind the wheel with your seat belt fastened. thats how I found out the arm rest blocked my primary [left handed] naa mini from watch pocket or belt buckle is much faster.

Warhawk83
January 28, 2010, 08:42 PM
I found that out yesterday yogi, I'm gonna have to keep a BUG in my glove compartment. I have an LCP but I haven't gotten my cc license yet.

David E
January 28, 2010, 09:00 PM
Drawing a BUG to me is not a timed event. I'm not going to be playing quickdraw with a bad guy.

Maybe not, but getting the gun out as fast as possible might very well be your ONLY option. Who knows how your deadly encounter will unfold?

The BUG is for situations where the shooting has already started, and the primary is somehow disabled. At that point I won't be standing squared off at high noon, but hiding behind the best cover available.

WHAT cover? Unless you wheel your own personal cover around with you, you can't guarantee there will be adequate cover or that you could reach it in time.

Also the BUGs carried by most people are not guns to be used in a shootout, but for point blank self defense.

If it gets to exchanging bullets, much less having to use your BUG, it's a "Run what ya brung" affair. That means using whatever gun or BUG you've chosen, at whatever distance it may be.

It makes sense to me to at least address such situations.

essayons21
January 28, 2010, 10:25 PM
I guess it's a matter of tactics. If I were inside practical shooting distance with BUG, and there was no where to run or hide, I would be closing distance to go hand-to-hand before trying to draw a BUG. I'm more confident that I can close 7 yards and take an opponent down faster than I can draw a BUG, no matter how much I practice. Any further than that, I'm running until I can find some cover.

I'm a pretty quick and athletic guy, with a fair amount of training in practical combatives. I can see if you are not as mobile or confident with hand-to-hand, draw speed might be an issue, but there is really no practical way to outdraw even an unarmed opponent that is within the effective range of most BUGs.

David E
January 28, 2010, 10:36 PM
How fast are you when you're holding your 3 yr old daughter?

How about when there are multiple badguys? While holding your daughter?

And the "effective range of most BUGS" is far more than most people think.

The reason one is defaulting to the BUG in the first place is that the primary is out of action and that the encounter may still be engaged. Getting the BUG out quickly seems like a reasonable thing to do.

We can get into endless "what if" scenarios, but it seems shortsighted to presume one will have all the time they want to casually draw their gun, or that cover is always a step away, or that it's possible and/or wise to rush the assailant(s).

essayons21
January 28, 2010, 10:45 PM
You miss the point. I can get my BUG out quickly, I most likely practice more drawing and firing my BUG more than most shooters practice with their primary, including shooting special IDPA BUG matches.

For me, as I have prefaced all of my posts, it is not an important issue. I don't have a 3 year old daughter. If I did I would rethink MY tactics. I'm not advocating anyone else follow MY tactics. What I am saying, is that it is impossible to draw and fire a BUG fast enough to make a difference within its effective range. To do so, or to advocate that others attempt to do so, is irresponsible. As proven time and again, an unarmed attacker can close 7 yards and cause mortal harm before most people can even react to pull the trigger on a drawn firearm. Attempting to play quickdraw with a bad guy within 7 or more yards (the effective range of most BUGs), with a pocket pistol, is reckless and should not be encouraged.

Sure, you should practice getting your BUG into use quickly, but if your combat mindset involves the use of a BUG for anything other than a last ditch, last gasp effort at self defense, you are doing it wrong.

27hand
January 28, 2010, 11:05 PM
I carry a BUG in a Lou Alessi ankle rig. It's a Kahr P9Covert with Trijicon NS's.

Nice little pistol. I've shot some IDPA with it (not out of the ankle rig though).

A lot of people don't realize what the actual range of these BUG's are.

I like to shoot distance just for ****s and giggles and have made pepper popper hits with my primary Glock32 and my Kahr out to 100 yds. Front sight focus and trigger press.

This ankle rig is good for driving as I can raise my pantleg and have easy access to the weapon as opposed to trying to draw the Glock from behind my right hip.

I don't look at it as a fast draw pistol although I can present the pistol pretty darn quickly after practicing a while.

I apologize for not reading through the entire thread but you get pretty much the same responses no matter what website you are on regarding anything firearms related.

Just my 2 cents

27hand

moga
January 28, 2010, 11:06 PM
Yes, but only when its the time of year for outer wear. Hi capacity auto on belt, OWB strong side, spare mag weak side, and a j frame 38 in my RH pocket. One 38 speed strip in left outer pocket of coat/jacket. I use a Don Hume SOOT IWB for pocket revolver carry. Each bottom feeder has a different holster.

Drawing the BUG is as easy as removing my hand from my coat pocket. Like Rexster stated, the small gun becomes the primary as it is the easiest to get to, and the auto loader in effect becomes the backup. The latter is usually a 1911 or a striker fired auto.

David E
January 28, 2010, 11:19 PM
What I am saying, is that it is impossible to draw and fire a BUG fast enough to make a difference within its effective range.

You miss the point. For example, a .38 snubby can make killing hits at 25 yds EASY. Of course, you should have some time to make that draw, but one shouldn't dally, regardless.

to advocate that others attempt to do so, is irresponsible.

Suggesting that getting the BUG out quickly is a good idea is hardly irresponsible.

As proven time and again, an unarmed attacker can close 7 yards and cause mortal harm before most people can even react to pull the trigger on a drawn firearm. Attempting to play quickdraw with a bad guy within 7 or more yards (the effective range of most BUGs), with a pocket pistol, is reckless and should not be encouraged.

What's with this 7 yd stuff? You're the only one saying that this part of the encounter is taking place at 7 yds. And as I've aleady said, the effective range of most BUGS is further than most people think. (I made hits on a 50 yd IPSC target with a .25 acp, so I know the gun is capable)

Sure, you should practice getting your BUG into use quickly,

This was one of my primary points. Glad we agree here.

but if your combat mindset involves the use of a BUG for anything other than a last ditch, last gasp effort at self defense, you are doing it wrong.

Or the parameters and/or definitions are different. When I was a cop, my BUG was a 9mm. It's not hard to envision a situation where a cop might be disarmed. It's also not hard to envision that same cop wanting to get his gun out and on target as fast as possible to take care of the problem. This is hardly a "last gasp effort at self defense." In a shooting my Dept had, one of the cops involved had a serious gun jam. If he had a BUG, he could've gotten back into the fight sooner. Again, hardly a "last ditch effort," but instead a better, quicker option than getting his primary back up and running.

Some people think a BUG is a sightless .380 or smaller, but it can also be 9mm or larger.

LeontheProfessional
January 28, 2010, 11:24 PM
Within 7 yards is the range at which most gun take place.

David E
January 28, 2010, 11:25 PM
But not all

LeontheProfessional
January 28, 2010, 11:30 PM
But not all
Very true, but that is where the 7 yards keeps coming from.

Autolycus
January 28, 2010, 11:37 PM
Why are there so many posts talking about gay people in this thread? What does it have to do with the concept of carrying a BUG?

essayons21
January 28, 2010, 11:39 PM
r the parameters and/or definitions are different. When I was a cop, my BUG was a 9mm. It's not hard to envision a situation where a cop might be disarmed. It's also not hard to envision that same cop wanting to get his gun out and on target as fast as possible to take care of the problem. This is hardly a "last gasp effort at self defense." In a shooting my Dept had, one of the cops involved had a serious gun jam. If he had a BUG, he could've gotten back into the fight sooner. Again, hardly a "last ditch effort," but instead a better, quicker option than getting his primary back up and running.


When I was a soldier (still am), my BUG was a M16/M203. Primary was a M2HB, which thankfully ran flawlessly through 1,000s of rounds.

If you look through the replies to this post, which represent a good section of the civilian shooting public, you will notice that the vast majority carry BUGs chambered in .380 and down. Yeah I'm sure we can all make a few hits at 100 yards with a .380 on a good day, downhill, with the wind at our backs. That's why I specified "effective" range. If anyone can score hits past 10 or 15 yards under stress in a dark rainy alley, they have my utmost respect, but I also recognize that most people, including myself, probably can't.

Combat tactics can't be blindly applied to police tactics, just as police tactics shouldn't be applied to civilian SD tactics. As a soldier I have a duty to close with and destroy the enemy. As a police officer you have a duty to stop a dangerous criminal. As a citizen your only duty is to protect yourself and your loved ones. In the vast majority of scenarios this is best achieved by finding cover with short sight lines, not by trying to outdraw against an armed attacker in the open.

We agree, it is a good thing to be able to draw and fire your BUG quickly and accurately. However, this should NOT be the priority in that sort of situation, and I feel suggesting that this is the primary or only option is irresponsible.

David E
January 30, 2010, 12:39 AM
There have been some cops killed while running to cover instead of drawing immediately and shooting what turned out to be their killer.

Why?

Because they had been taught: COVER! COVER! COVER! To the exclusion of any other option. Once they were behind cover, THEN they could begin to shoot back, etc. But cover ain't always a step away. Some of us realize that.

You keep posing the scenario of a confrontation out in the open taking place at 7 yds or less and the futility of trying to outdraw an armed attacker. This presumes quite a bit. It seems to you that the overwhelming priority should be to seek cover! But you inexplicably overlook the fact that the primary gun normally would've been drawn before the BUG. By the time drawing the BUG becomes necessary, the encounter has progressed significantly past the initial contact.

The reason most folks will need to draw their backup is because they ran their primary dry. Hopefully, whatever the original threat was was neutralized in the first gun load, making a fast draw for the BUG a moot point, but it's always better to produce it faster than slower.

In another thread, I ask: Which is faster, reloading the primary or drawing a BUG? The majority of people seem to think that drawing their BUG is faster. Based on the posts in this thread, I'd have to challenge that assertion.

LeontheProfessional
January 30, 2010, 01:25 AM
I agree with you 100% David E. I work way more on speedy reload than I do on drawing a second gun.

Leanwolf
January 30, 2010, 01:55 AM
SMINCE - " I know plenty of cops who don't even carry off-duty."

I know of two specific cases in Los Angeles where two different cops were killed because they were not carrying a handgun off duty.

I also knew some cops who would not have carried a gun on duty were it not for department regulations. Lots of cops know very little about firearms, and care nothing about them, other than what they have learned about their department issued handguns and shotguns.

L.W.

MCgunner
January 30, 2010, 10:50 AM
Usually a pocket. I have ankle holsters, but have rarely used 'em.

wishin
January 30, 2010, 12:55 PM
I don't. Looks like I need further convincing that I should have a backup gun because whenever I think of doing so, it goes on the back-burner.:uhoh:

S&W-Keeper
January 31, 2010, 12:34 PM
If I were a cop yes,I try not go to places that I would have to fight my way out of.What is the average shooting 1, 2 shots.

kgpcr
January 31, 2010, 07:04 PM
I dont carry a BUG. If 15rnds of .40 dosnt settle it done nothing will!

Friendly, Don't Fire!
January 31, 2010, 07:06 PM
It all depends on how I feel that day whether I will have one and where I will wear it.

David E
January 31, 2010, 11:45 PM
What is the average shooting 1, 2 shots?

No, it's not.

The "2.6 rounds fired" stat is WRONG. Why? Because it includes accidental discharges, suicides, warning shots, animal put-downs, etc. In other words, it includes all kinds of situations where only ONE SHOT is fired. Most of the ones listed do not involve a confrontation with another person, save for th warning shot.

So if they have nothing to do with shoot-outs between 2 or more people, why are they included? Because no one thought it through and apparently there weren't any sub-categories on the report form to break down the information.

Here is a link to but one study on the topic. The chart a couple inches down is enlightening: http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/Main-R.htm

evan price
February 1, 2010, 03:17 AM
114610

Would that be a Derrieringer?

David E
February 2, 2010, 03:02 AM
I don't know about that.......but I ain't taking the first shot with it !!

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