Most powerful rifle caliber


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kestak
January 22, 2010, 01:06 PM
Greetings,

I am reading Handloader about the big bores. I am curious. Simple question: What is the biggest American/ stoutest recoil/ hardest hitting caliber?

Sometimes I find 300 Win mag brass or 7mm magnum brass. Those brass are huge. Are they the most powerful?

Thank you

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highorder
January 22, 2010, 01:14 PM
You want hard hitting?... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.577_Tyrannosaur)

kestak
January 22, 2010, 01:16 PM
Greetings,

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=154100098

It is a little bit expensive. Thanks God, I reload....;-)

Thank you

GunsBeerFreedom
January 22, 2010, 01:17 PM
577 T-rex? Yeah that's kinda cute I guess. But it's no 950 JDJ :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.950_JDJ

Jim Watson
January 22, 2010, 01:19 PM
Probably a .460 Weatherby considering only sporting rifles.

There are all manner of ammunition catalogs in print and on the net.

RumRunner
January 22, 2010, 03:07 PM
.460 is it. overkill for anything but elephant and cape buffalo.

dirtyjim
January 22, 2010, 03:50 PM
the 700AHR is about the most powerfull cartridge that can be shot from a gun that you can actually hunt with. the 950JDJ is stricly a bench rifle because of the weight.
if you have a some gunporters and are strong enogh to hold the gun on target you might be able to hunt with a ken ownens 4 bore double or a jones 2 bore underlever double. if you can hold a 4 or 2 bore double on target you can take the recoil

600 NE, 700 NE and 2 bore
http://www.2-bore.com/images/825_IMG_1075.jpg

rattletrap1970
January 22, 2010, 03:54 PM
20mm vulcan

BaltimoreBoy
January 22, 2010, 05:14 PM
Once upon a time I read that the now venerable .600 nitro express had 7,200 ft-lbs of Muzzle Energy.
In comparison the same source gave the 458 Win magnum as 5,000 ft-lbs
and the 460 Weatherby as 8,000 (at the muzzle) and 5,000 at 200 yds.

Of course that was before they made that T-Rex

Welding Rod
January 23, 2010, 12:34 AM
Am I missing something?

What about the .50 BMG?

Uncle Mike
January 23, 2010, 12:36 AM
Am I missing something?

What about the .50 BMG?

Went through a whole jug waiting for someone to mention this!

Isher
January 23, 2010, 12:56 AM
Jeez -

Got to cooking dinner and totally forgot this........

About Very Large Rifles -

Schwerer Gustav
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Schwerer Gustav

Preparing to fire the gun- Note size of figures
Type Siege gun
Place of origin Nazi Germany
Service history
In service 1941-1945
Used by Wehrmacht
Wars World War II
Production history
Designer Krupp
Designed 1934
Manufacturer Krupp
Unit cost 7 million Reichsmark
Produced 1941
Number built 2
Specifications
Weight 1,350 tonnes
Length 47.3 m
Barrel length 32.48 m (L/40.6)
Width 7.1 m
Height 11.6 m
Crew 250 to assemble the gun in 3 days (54 hours), 2,500 to lay track and dig embankments. 2 Flak battalions to protect the gun from air attack.
Caliber 800 mm(31.5in)
Elevation Max of 48°
Rate of fire 1 round every 30 to 45 minutes or typically 14 rounds a day
Muzzle velocity 820 m/s (HE); 720 m/s (AP)
Effective range about 39 km
Maximum range 48 km (HE); 38 km (AP)
Schwerer Gustav (English: Heavy Gustaf, or Great Gustaf) and Dora were the names of two massive World War 2 German 80 cm K (E) railway siege guns. They were developed in the late 1930s by Krupp for the express purpose of destroying heavy fortifications, specifically those in the French Maginot Line. They weighed nearly 1,350 tonnes, and could fire shells weighing seven tonnes to a range of 37 kilometers (23 miles). Designed in preparation for World War II, and intended for use against the deep forts of the Maginot Line, they were not ready for action when the Wehrmacht outflanked the line during the Battle of France. Gustav was used in the Soviet Union at the siege of Sevastopol during Operation Barbarossa. They were moved to Leningrad, and may have been intended for Warsaw. Gustav was captured by US troops and cut up, whilst Dora was destroyed near the end of the war to avoid capture by the Red Army.
It was the largest calibre rifled weapon in the history of artillery to see actual combat, and fired the heaviest shells of any artillery piece.[1] It is only surpassed in calibre by the American 36-inch Little David mortar and a handful of earlier siege mortars that all fired smaller shells.[2]
Contents [hide]
1 Development
2 History
2.1 Schwerer Gustav
2.2 Dora
2.3 Langer Gustav
2.4 Landkreuzer P. 1500 Monster Project
3 Ammunition
3.1 High Explosive
3.2 AP Shell
4 Models
5 See also
6 Notes
7 References
8 External links
[edit]Development

In 1934 the German Army High Command (OKH) commissioned Krupp of Essen, Germany to design a gun to destroy the forts of the French Maginot Line which were then nearing completion. The gun's shells had to punch through seven meters of reinforced concrete or one full meter of steel armour plate, from beyond the range of French artillery. Krupp engineer Dr. Erich Müller calculated that the task would require a weapon with a calibre of around 80 cm, firing a projectile weighing 7 tonnes from a barrel 30 meters long. As such, the weapon would have a weight of over 1000 tonnes. The size and weight meant that to be at all movable it would need to be supported on twin sets of railway tracks. In common with smaller railway guns, the only barrel movement on the mount would be elevation, traverse being managed by moving the weapon along a curved section of railway line. Krupp prepared plans for calibres of 70 cm, 80 cm, 85 cm, and 1 m.
Nothing further happened until March 1936, when during a visit to Essen, Adolf Hitler enquired as to the giant guns' feasibility. No definite commitment was given by Hitler, but design work began on an 80 cm model. The resulting plans were completed in early 1937 and approved. Fabrication of the first gun started in the summer of 1937. However, technical complications in the forging of such massive pieces of steel made it apparent that the original completion date of spring 1940 could not be met.
Krupp built a test model in late 1939 and sent it to the Hillersleben firing range for testing. Penetration was tested on this occasion. Firing at high elevation, the 7.1 tonne shell was able to penetrate the specified seven meters of concrete and the one meter armour plate [1]. When the tests were completed in mid-1940 the complex carriage was further developed. Alfried Krupp, after whose father the gun was named, personally hosted Hitler at the Rügenwald Proving Ground during the formal acceptance trials of the Gustav Gun in the spring of 1941. Hitler was so awe-struck, he commanded that the 11 tonne shell could only be used at his discretion. As he never gave permission, it was never deployed.


An 800 mm shell compared to a Soviet T-34 tank at the Imperial War Museum, London.
Two guns were ordered. The first round was test-fired from the commissioned gun barrel on 10 September 1941 from a makeshift gun carriage on the Hillersleben firing range. In November 1941, the barrel was taken to Rügenwald where 8 further firing tests took place using the 7,100 kilogram armor-piercing (AP) shell out to a range of 37,210 meters.
In combat, the gun was mounted on a specially designed chassis, supported by four bogies on parallel sets of railway tracks. Each of the bogies had 20 axles, giving a total of 80 axles (160 wheels). Krupp christened the gun Schwerer Gustav (Heavy Gustav) after the senior director of the firm, Gustav Krupp von Bohlen und Halbach.
The ammunition for the gun consisted of a heavy concrete-piercing shell and a lighter high-explosive shell. A super-long-range rocket projectile was also planned with a range of 150 km that would require the barrel being extended to 84 meters. This rocket projectile might have enabled the bombardment of England.
In keeping with the tradition of the Krupp company, no charge was made for the first gun. However, they did charge seven million Reichsmark for the second gun Dora, named after the senior engineer's wife.
[edit]History



A shell for the Dora gun (without the sharp ballistic cap) found after the war at the former German firing range near Rügenwalde (today Darłowo), on exhibition in the Polish Army museum in Warsaw
[edit]Schwerer Gustav
In February 1942 Heavy Artillery Unit (E) 672 reorganized and went on the march, and Schwerer Gustav began its long ride to the Crimea. The train carrying the gun was of 25 cars, a total length of 1.5 kilometers (1 mile). The gun reached the Perekop Isthmus in early March 1942, where it was held until early April. A special railway spur line was built to the Simferopol-Sevastopol railway 16 kilometers (10 miles) north of the target, at the end of which four semi-circular tracks were built specially for the Gustav to traverse. Outer tracks were required for the cranes which would have assembled Gustav.
The siege of Sevastopol was to be the gun's first combat test. Installation began in early May, and by 5 June the gun was ready to fire. The following targets were engaged:
5 June
Coastal guns at a range of 25,000 m. Eight shells fired.
Fort Stalin. Six shells fired.
6 June
Fort Molotov. Seven shells fired.
The White Cliff: an undersea ammunition magazine in Severnaya Bay. The magazine was sited 30 meters under the sea with at least 10 meters of concrete protection. After nine shells were fired, the magazine was ruined and one of the boats in the bay sunk.[3]
7 June
Firing in support of an infantry attack on Sudwestspitze, an outlying fortification. Seven shells fired.
11 June
Fort Siberia. Five shells fired.
17 June
Fort Maxim Gorki and its coastal battery. Five shells fired.
By the end of the siege on 4 July the city of Sevastopol lay in ruins, and 30,000 tons of artillery ammunition had been fired. Gustav had fired 48 rounds and worn out its original barrel, which had already fired around 250 rounds during testing and development. The gun was fitted with the spare barrel and the original was sent back to Krupp's factory in Essen for relining.
The gun was then dismantled and moved to the northern part of the eastern front, where an attack was planned on Leningrad. The gun was placed some 30 km from the city near the railway station of Taizy. The gun was fully operational when the attack was cancelled. The gun then spent the winter of 1942/43 near Leningrad.
Then it was moved back to Germany for refurbishment. Despite some claims, it was never used in Warsaw during the 1944 uprising, though one of its shells is on display at the Polish Army museum there.
The gun then appears to have been destroyed to prevent its capture sometime before 22 April 1945, when its ruins were discovered in a forest 15 kilometers (9 miles) north of Auerbach about 50 kilometers (31 miles) southwest of Chemnitz.
[edit]Dora
Dora was the second gun to be produced. It was deployed briefly against Stalingrad, where the gun arrived at its emplacement 15 kilometers (9 miles) to the west of the city sometime in mid-August 1942. It was ready to fire on 13 September. It was quickly withdrawn, however, when Soviet encirclement threatened. When the Germans began their long retreat they took Dora with them. Dora was broken up before the end of the war, being discovered in the west by American troops some time after the discovery of Schwerer Gustav.
[edit]Langer Gustav
The Langer Gustav was a long cannon with 52 centimeter caliber and a 43 meter barrel. It was intended to fire super-long-range rocket projectiles weighing 680 kilogram to a range of 190 kilometers. This gave it the range to hit London. It was never completed after being damaged during construction by one of the many RAF bombing raids on Essen.
[edit]Landkreuzer P. 1500 Monster Project
Main article: Landkreuzer P. 1500 Monster
The Monster was to be a 1,500 tonne mobile, self-propelled platform for an 80-cm K (E) gun, along with two 15 cm sFH 18 heavy howitzers, and multiple MG 151 auto cannons. It was deemed impractical, and in 1943 was canceled by Albert Speer. It never left the drawing board and no progress was ever made. It would have easily surpassed the Panzer VIII Maus (heaviest tank ever built) and the Landkreuzer P. 1000 Ratte (Also never built, although one twin 280 mm gun turret has been rumoured to have been completed) in weight and size.
[edit]Ammunition

[edit]High Explosive
Weight of projectile: 4.8 t (4,800 kg)
Muzzle velocity: 820 m/s
Maximum range: 48 km
Explosive mass: 700 kg
Crater size: 30 ft (10 m) wide 30 ft (10 m) deep.
[edit]AP Shell
The main body was made of chrome-nickel steel, fitted with an aluminium alloy ballistic nose cone.
Length of shell: 3.6 m
Weight of projectile: 7.1 t (7,100 kg)
Muzzle velocity: 720 m/s
Maximum range: 38 km
Explosive mass: 250 kg
Penetration: In testing it was demonstrated to penetrate 7 metres of concrete at maximum elevation (beyond that available during combat) with a special charge [2].
[edit]Models

80 cm "Schwerer Gustav" (Heavy Gustav) - Deployed in March 1942 against Sevastopol.
80 cm "Dora" - Deployed against Stalingrad in September 1942. Possibly never fired.
52 cm "Langer Gustav" (Long Gustav) - Started but not completed.
[edit]See also

Wikimedia Commons has media related to: 80 cm K gun (Krupp)
Supergun
List of the largest cannon by caliber
Sturmtiger
Mörser Karl
Leopold railway gun
V-3
Paris Gun
Project Babylon
[edit]Notes

^ Though Little David was rifled it never saw actual combat.
^ Little David. The French Monster Mortar, British Mallet's Mortar, of the 19th century, and several Turkish siege guns of the fifteenth century, and a Russian gun of the eighteenth. These fired balls of steel and shells of, from one, to two tons.
^ Dora
[edit]References

Schwerer Gustav details — A page with very extensive info on the Schwerer Gustav
Self-Propelled Dora — An article on the self-propelled version of the Dora.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/1167/edora.html
http://www.hpwt.de/2Weltkrieg/Dorae.htm
http://html2.free.fr/canons/dora.htm
German Artillery of World War Two, Ian V. Hogg. ISBN 1-85367-480-X
[edit]


From here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwerer_Gustav

Sunray
January 23, 2010, 01:12 AM
"...Are they the most powerful?..." Nope. Not even close. The 300 Win Mag and 7mm Rem Magnum have big cases, but aren't the most powerful cartridges. Both are standard hunting cartridges and neither are considered to be 'big bores' either. Mostly for hunters who think a magnum is better. It isn't. Magnums are the most successful marketing things ever. Lots of felt recoil out of regular hunting rifles. Makes 'em no fun to shoot, on a range, for practice. Hard to shoot well because of that. Neither is really needed to hunt anything either. Certainly no game that lives in GA.
"...the biggest American..." Like Jim says, for a sporting/hunting rifle, the .460 Weatherby. Weatherby's answer to the .458 Win Mag. The word Weatherby on anything costs more.
Pop into you're local public library and read every firearm related book they have. For just a good hunting read, look into Peter Capstick's African hunting books. 'Death in the Long Grass' is one.
"...It is a little bit expensive. Thanks God, I reload..." Yep. If you want to take out a mortgage for brass.
"...Am I missing something?..." Yes.
"...a whole jug..." Geezuz, you're quick. snicker.

jmortimer
January 23, 2010, 01:18 AM
950 JDJ takes the cake but as mentioned it cannot be held and fired. Now this is fascinating - 16,000 ft lbs - 825 grains at 3,000 fps in an every day rifle. They are working on 1,600 grain bullets in a 4 bore. God Bless these guys. http://www.shootingworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3645&sid=398b5f84f6436ad6adb3d165aca65870 http://www.shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=26647

atlanticfire
January 23, 2010, 01:21 AM
I dont think the 20mm and 50 BMG qualify for this question:rolleyes:. The 700 Nitro is the biggest in a double rifle. But for a more standard bolt gun I would agree with the .460 WBY.:what:

General Geoff
January 23, 2010, 01:32 AM
.50BMG is the most powerful "common" caliber.

saturno_v
January 23, 2010, 02:46 AM
Personally I do not consider the 50 BMG chambered firearms "rifles" (in terms of shoulder-fired individual long firearm)

To me they are, to all intents and purposes, light artillery pieces, extremely heavy and you can fire them basically only from rest and with a bipod.

I read that a particular "rifle" chambered for the 950 JDJ weights between 80 and 110 lb....that is effectively a cannon...

Ridgerunner665
January 23, 2010, 03:18 AM
.600 Overkill...not the biggest, but certainly the baddest that can be carried and shoulder fired..

900 grain bullets @ 2,400 fps

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGfu3Rge8Xo

RS14
January 23, 2010, 03:31 AM
Among the 20mm cannons, the Lahti L-39 and Solothurn S-18/1000 are notable for using a 20x138mm cartridge (rather than the now common 20x105mm or 20x82mm). They each weighed over 100lbs, and were actually vaguely practical weapons (as opposed to the .950 JDJ).

saturno_v
January 23, 2010, 04:57 AM
600 Overkill...not the biggest, but certainly the baddest that can be carried and shoulder fired..

900 grain bullets @ 2,400 fps


As far as I know certain loadings for the 700 NE can propel a 1000 gr. slug at 2500 fps...in a shoulder fired, relatively light rifle...ouch!!!

hadmanysons
January 23, 2010, 06:48 AM
I'd have to say the 64mm Remington Super Short Ultra Magnum Baby Kicker!!! :eek: Did I just make that up??? Maybe. But what's important here (If I didn't make that up) is that it would be the most powerful with a muzzle energy just over 9,000,000 ft/lbs. :what:

I will now apologize for the ~10 seconds of your life wasted for reading that(I could not help myself). Now to my real post, why do you ask? Just curiosity or are you planning on purchasing one of previously mentioned insane calibers?

Hatterasguy
January 23, 2010, 01:45 PM
.700 Nitro Express or 20mm Lahti.

The Lahti is probably the largest rifle a human could safely fire.:D

If you want to talk about the big stuff, the 18in turrets on the Yamato and Musashi were BIG.

Caliper_RWVA
January 23, 2010, 01:54 PM
I'll vote .700 Nitro Express or .50 BMG. Wikipedia puts both in the 14,000 ft*lb area for muzzle energy with one .50 BMG loading knocking on the door of 15K ft*lb. I'll put both in the "might dislocate my shoulder" category.

For those who claim no sporting use for a .50 BMG, I see HP and SP ammo for sale at Cabellas and 5 round bolt action rifles elsewhere. So, if one had the income it would be entirely possible to put together a hunting rig in this caliber. Now, the game that you need a .50 BMG to hunt may have died out 65 million years ago, but that's another story...

Welding Rod
January 23, 2010, 02:05 PM
These 50s looks like individual rifles to me:

M95
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddnT-KffX5s


The last minute of this one shows the "carbine version" of the M99 being shot from the shoulder multiple times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnilmqZzCH4

MachIVshooter
January 23, 2010, 02:10 PM
For a gun that is made to be fired from the shoulder without being supported (Bi-Pod), that'd be a two-bore. Only a few custom guns exist. If we're talking about guns with a stock, regardless of the need for a bi-pod or other front support, that'd be an A-gauge punt gun. 1.5" bore, up to a half pound of black powder behind a 20 ounce load of shot. The guns usually weigh 130 pounds or more, and their recoil will move the boats they're mounted to back several feet upon firing.

alpha6164
January 23, 2010, 02:22 PM
Who said the 50BMG cant be shoulder fired and needs a bipod? This is my M82QC and i am pretty accurate with it at a 100yards. I can dump 10 rounds into about a 10-12" area in about ~ 6seconds :)





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAdjdHdVQsE

dirtyjim
January 23, 2010, 02:30 PM
http://www.shootingworld.com/bbs/vie...b3d165aca65870[/url] http://www.shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=26647
]
ken ownes already loads 2000 grain bullets in his 4 bore doubles.
i would actually like a jones 4 bore single barrel underlever. the doubles are just way heavy but the weight helps out with the recoil, i think a 18-20 pound single barrel would be managable.
when i shot the ownes 4 bore double the recoil wasn't bad but the gun weights 26 pounds. i'm 6'1" & 260 pounds & the recoil might have pushed me back about a foot. one of the other guys who shot it was about the same height but only about 180 pounds & it pushed him back about 4 or 5 steps.

saturno_v
January 23, 2010, 02:50 PM
Who said the 50BMG cant be shoulder fired and needs a bipod? This is my M82QC and i am pretty accurate with it at a 100yards. I can dump 10 rounds into about a 10-12" area in about ~ 6seconds


I wonder how your arms felt after that...yes it can be done...for very brief periods...

alpha6164
January 23, 2010, 03:05 PM
^^^Not bad at all actually. I try to get a few rounds off shoulder every time i take that bad boy out just to keep it fresh :)

gunsandreligion
January 23, 2010, 09:03 PM
you could probably get a 16 inch or two from pearl harbor but if you'll take japanese the yamato wreck got 18 inchers.:D

sig220mw
January 23, 2010, 09:17 PM
Read about a 515 Nyati or Nyata several years ago in G&A. Ross Seyfried did an article about it and shot it. Hell of a thumper he said. The pictures of it in recoil were plumb scary. Still not as big as that 950 jdj though.

dirtyjim
January 24, 2010, 10:11 AM
its a 585 nyati not a 515 & it is a thumper but its not all that scary unless the rifle is under 10 pounds or the stock isn't designed right. i think a lot of the pictures of big bores being shot are exaggerated for the magazines.
i might do a 550 express on a mauser action this year. if i can get about 4 or 5 more people to go in on the barrels its a lot cheaper.

elmerfudd
January 24, 2010, 02:54 PM
There was a company about 15 years ago or so that made a 16" barreled .50 BMG that I believe was called the Desert Rhino. It was supposed to have weighed about 16 lbs. and was made to be fired from the shoulder.

I remember reading a review of it in a gun rag where they said that firing it was akin to being at ground zero at a nuclear blast and that the muzzle blast ended up cracking the lens on the camera they were using to photograph it.

Found some photos here,
http://www.sportingadvertising.com/gun_details/harris_bmg_rhino.htm

Jaws
January 24, 2010, 03:49 PM
This puppy is not too bad either: :evil:

14.5x114mm
64 g (990 gr) B-32 API 1,000 m/s (3,300 ft/s) 32,000 J (24,000 ft·lbf) :evil:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/PTRS-41_antitank.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/ATRIFLE01.jpg

mrjohnston
January 24, 2010, 04:51 PM
I've always wanted a 18" barrelled barret M82. I think it'd be one helluva brush buster...

I will own a .458 lott one day, that's the biggest I think I need in Oklahoma. Maybe a .450 SOCOM SBR upper for the AR, but that's a only 45-70 league, so it doesn't fit in this thread.

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