Unintended Consequences?


January 20, 2003, 07:59 PM
Has anyone read this book by John Ross?

PLEASE do yourself a favor and GET IT!

It certainly gets the blood flowing!

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January 20, 2003, 08:01 PM
Ordered it last week at the local Barnes & Nobles.

Seems as though they don't carry it on their shelves and it'll take about a week to ten days to come in. Is this normal?

January 20, 2003, 08:11 PM
Darned if I know what happened to mine... I had two copies, gave one away, and now I have zero. I guess either my memory or my math skills are a bit rusty. :eek:

Dave Markowitz
January 20, 2003, 08:18 PM
Excellent book. All pro-rights people should read it, but be warned, doing so will raise your blood pressure.



w00t! My 100th post!

January 20, 2003, 08:28 PM
I spend to much dang time on here! [sleepy, blank stare at monitor].. Must read threads, post, lurk, no time to read books.:D

January 20, 2003, 08:33 PM
Read it in '98, still have the hardback with the pretty nekkid "Lady Justice" on the cover. Be forewarned, if you read this book THE GOVERNMENT will know and you will be put on a list of subversives. You will be amongst the first when they come to.........................................................................:uhoh:

January 20, 2003, 08:51 PM
about the "Homeland Security"...and all of the other things that are being laid out.

January 20, 2003, 09:13 PM
I bought it a few months ago from Amazon. Didn't take more than a week to arrive. I started reading it. The gun, gun history, firearm legislation, and gun culture information in the book is fascinating, but the story!! It is so author self-centered, and contrived, with every cliche that makes gun ownership a political liability in the eyes of the general public.

It is about as boring as the day is long in June. Still, I suppose I will plod through it with all the enthusiasm of reading "War and Peace." The ending is supposed to be exciting. Maybe I will just skip to the last chapter.

Believe me folks, this is not the Bible of gun culture that some say it is. And about 1/3 of the way into the book, you just wish little Henry Bowman would shoot himself, instead of those "little blocks of wood in the water."

January 20, 2003, 09:21 PM
I would have to rate this book as one of the top two or three books I ever read. I found the story exciting from beginning to end. When I finished it, I was so disappointed that it was over that I turned back to page one and started over. I think I have read the whole thing three times. For me, this was one of the few books that I couldn't put down.

January 20, 2003, 09:35 PM
I actually got a kick out of the "Li'l Henry's blocks of wood" ... took me back to my own times, I think.

Book's a bit contrived at times, no doubt & it's not the Shooter's Bible by any stretch - merely a work of fiction that'll make some think - hard, usually.

I ripped through it (first time) in about 2 days .....

Porter Rockwell
January 20, 2003, 10:00 PM
I believe it was about this time last year when I noticed that John Ross was selling his personal collection online.
The story goes that the book caused some consternation with the BATF and they set out to harrass both Ross and his wife.
I hear she couldn't deal with the Feds pressure and filed for divorce.
C'mon guys and gals, it's a great read and even my wife enjoyed it!
Warning, I have read some online reports from the Misery Baptists that the book is uncomfortably risque because of a few sex scenes.
Feed Those Hogs Henry!

Calamity Jane
January 20, 2003, 10:01 PM
I will say I'm glad the book exists. It's an important book and has a great deal of valuable, factual information about history, gun rights, etc.

As a novel, I found it to be contrived and poorly written - but still a good book to read for the information it contains.

January 20, 2003, 10:06 PM
Hey labgrade, you are braggin man. Nobody reads almost 900 pages in two days, and I can speed read when I want to. And if I speed read through this book, all I will see is "Henry Bowman is Jesus . . . Henry Bowman is Jesus". The book absolutely plods like a wagon train on the Oregon trail.

Don Gwinn
January 20, 2003, 10:09 PM
Even numerous scenes of cruising in hot cars and sex with bisexual strippers couldn't really save the plot with regards to Henry Bowman . . . . but it raises issues you won't see in most work. If other authors touched these subjects then the premiere author in the "gun culture" might not have to be an aging gun dealer from St. Louis, but it's a little hypocritical for literati who wouldn't dream of writing about these issues in any serious way to criticize Ross's attempt to do so.

John Ross is not really a novelist, in other words, but somebody had to do it! I'm trying to get my wife to read it now. I don't expect her to enjoy the whole thing, to be honest, and she might not even finish it, but if she reads the first 50 pages I think she'll understand me a little better.

Art Eatman
January 20, 2003, 10:13 PM
b_d_b, I agree it will never end up on a list of the World's Greatest Books, but I gotta say it does have merit.

To me, Ross did a pretty good job of using the development of his characters to delineate the rise of gun control laws in the U.S. His various tales of shooting are reasonable accurate history, by and large. The first half of the book is educational, at worst, in that there are lots of bits and pieces not widely known to those outside the gun fraternity or who aren't students of history.

The second half of the book is a wonderful romantic fantasy, in which the small number of good guys win out over the forces of evil. Hey, poorly written or not poorly written, how can you beat a deal like that?

"...he had to go feed his hogs" ranks right in there with "Make my day" and other such great one-liners.

Wonderful invention, call forwarding.

:D, Art

January 20, 2003, 10:18 PM
Calamity Jane,

An important book is one that makes a difference. "Unintended Consequences" does not qualify. Few books do.

A book that makes a difference has to do two things:

It has to make a valid logical and/or moral point.

But most importantly, it has to be well read by the general populace.

Hmmmm, I can't think of any book, save the Bible, that qualifies, and those who claim to have read the Bible and really do, are the minority.

That is the problem with books. They are only important to the individual that writes them, and the scant few individuals that read them.

Sorry to be so cynical, but I am the devil's advocate.


January 20, 2003, 10:21 PM
Believe me folks, this is not the Bible of gun culture that some say it is.

No, but Boston's Gun Bible is....:D

January 20, 2003, 10:21 PM

Hey man, on your recommendation, I will read the second half. I am a romantic!
Please just tell me, it will get more exciting.


2nd Amendment
January 20, 2003, 10:27 PM
Actually it's better written than most of what clutters up the Bestseller Lists. The story works, the characters are actually developed and the information is often priceless. Perfect? Hardly, but good enough to keep me sufficiently engrossed to read it in two days as well.

January 20, 2003, 10:29 PM
Brad, it will. Trust me (us) on this.

& no bragging or really much of a speed reader. I'd heard a bunch about it, finally kinda happened upon it, had the coupla days to burn & did. & agree, the first couple 100 pgs, although interesting with some "gun culture" stuff, seemed to drag.

Stick with it & it'll come around.

Read a few quick blurbs about Leatham (?) & his buds as kids & they write about shooting the exjected brass from their semis ....

Look at Young Henry as a compilation of all the coolest things we all ever did maybe ....

John Galt
January 20, 2003, 10:31 PM
I read it and am proud to own in. It took me 3 days & I'm a fast reader who devoted the whole weekend to it.

Remember that Ross is not "an author" & as such cut him some slack. Also, since he didn't have an editor coaching him, it is too long. That's the breaks.

You don't have to be "a Baptist" to not like the inappropriate sexual content. The couple of pages with sexual content served no purpose & was too graphic. Because of that, I would not recommend it to high school kids. Therefore, it damages it's purpose, which is to be widely read.

That all said, it was a great book & I recommend it. If anyone makes a top 10 list of politicians to remove, don't use a gun, it only feeds their cause.

Calamity Jane
January 20, 2003, 10:32 PM
bad_dad_brad - nope, UC isn't/hasn't been widely read by the general populace, but it is, at least at the current time, the most prominent book of its kind (novel; well kinda-sorta! ;) ) in pro-freedom circles.

January 20, 2003, 10:39 PM
I'm going to have to get the book.

Shooter 2.5
January 20, 2003, 10:49 PM
I heard it was too long until I read it and then read it a second time.
It was supposed to be poorly written and gunowners can't stop talking about it.
The sex was supposed to be gratuitous until I read Robert Heinlein books.
I never read fiction and I bought two copies after my son bought his copy.
I told one person to read it and he positively said he didn't want to read it. I told him to read one chapter and he was up until 2 AM on a weekday reading it. He finished it in four days.

Thanks, Mr. Ross.

January 20, 2003, 10:57 PM
I give up. I can see the book has too many passionate fans. I don't blame you, and I agree, it is a unique work. But if we are to win the war of gun rights, "Unintended Consequences" will not help us one bit. Sure, the book is right, but it won't win us one anti-gunner, and will indeed fuel many more.

The worst conservative is the zealot. He hurts our cause. The worst liberal is the zealot. She hurts her cause.

Notice the gender.

Only when desperate, does the zealot serve the cause, and I don't think that we, as a country, are there yet.

Well, it has been so fun fellow brothers and sisters, the debate is the spice that makes living fun, but I am tired, and must say good night for the evening. And so, I bid you adieu.

I agree to disagree.

Porter Rockwell
January 20, 2003, 10:59 PM
John Galt, I've always found it curious when some folks complain about lovemaking/sex and totally ignore extreme violence as being objectionable? Hmm, the kids here are out of high school by several years and even then adult content was profuse at the schools, condom fitting, alternate lifestyle programing etc.
Have or are school children supposed to be shielded from all things human? BTW, in the early sixties we read and studied Henry Miller in HS, it almost turned me off with it's course discriptions of the human act.
Another UC highlight is the meeting of Richard Davis of Second Chance Body Armor and the President of the USA, snort, chuckle.
All in all I enjoyed the book tho it was hard to relate to the rich mans son and heavy kosher content, I moved on to the early .44 magnum and 173gn HPs and then the Solothurn 1000!
I woner if we could get Chuck Heston to record UC in an audio format of some kind?

January 20, 2003, 11:03 PM
Best dang book I've ever read.

Didn't care so much for the sex scenes, but it did have it's place. It gave validity to some of the other actions taken so to speak.

Read it. Just be sure to have something to lower your blood pressure.

That book REALLY pissed me off!

It was very educational.

Chris Rhines
January 20, 2003, 11:06 PM
I was unimpressed with UC, both as a novel and as a pro-freedom novel. There are better works out there.

- Chris

January 20, 2003, 11:11 PM
Funny about "sex scenes."

If you do it, it's making love. Somebody else does it & it's porn ... ?


January 20, 2003, 11:16 PM
"I give up. I can see the book has too many passionate fans. I don't blame you, and I agree, it is a unique work. But if we are to win the war of gun rights, "Unintended Consequences" will not help us one bit. Sure, the book is right, but it won't win us one anti-gunner, and will indeed fuel many more."

I don't understand why I can't read a book simply for the shear enjoyment of reading it. Why does it have to change the world to make it a good book ?

"There are better works out there."

Really ? So this isn't the greatest book ever written ? I guess I can add that to the long list of pretty much every other book I ever read. I enjoyed it anyway.

I actually thought the parts of the book dealing with Henry having sex acually added something to the character. Instead of being strictly one dimensional, it turns out that Henry is a normal man with sexual desires and an interest in women.

Shooter 2.5
January 20, 2003, 11:20 PM

Disagree about what?
You didn't like the book and that's your interpretation of it. That's fine. No one said your opinion wasn't valid for you.
I did notice that you didn't like the book for another reason. You're afraid it hurts our cause.

Relax, It's fiction. No different than a Batman comic book.

January 20, 2003, 11:29 PM
I have to say that I liked it. The sex doesn't bother me. Sorry...I guess I have my own set of morals. I took the first 600 pages as what they were, back story, and history. Did he go a bit TOO in depth sometimes? Yeah, but so does Tom Clancy, every time. I felt the depth helps you get to know the charecters. Would the book have worked if all he did was print the 'Present' section? maybe, but I wouldn't have gotten as much out of it.

The book did :cuss: me off. I feel bad that I had never heard of some of the things that happened. Part of it comes from how he puts himself in the ATF agents minds. he admits that he took certain 'liberties' there, but it was essential to get people spun up.

I don't think the book was written to change the world. I think he was trying to point out a new way of looking at things, and make people see some of what our government is doing. It simply sticks in your craw more in this format than if he had listed all the things that had happened in outline format.

end result, I liked it, and I am using it as a springboard to do other research. Let's not forget, Mr. Ross had an agenda when he wrote this book, and I feel that accepting everything in it at face value would be just as bad as one of the Sheeple accepting what the HCL tells them at face value.

Just my opinon.

January 21, 2003, 03:25 AM
I made the mistake of getting it via a interlibrary loan. :(
It is not the best book ever written but what I asked for as a Xmas present. (didn't happen) :(
I have dropped into book stores and asked for it but have not ordered it. Will try birthday and if not then have to order it myself.

Byron Quick
January 21, 2003, 04:11 AM
Too long? I like long stories but then I read obsessively.

Sounds like personal choice...probably from folks with short attention spans.

Could it have been written better? Obviously, but then ALL novels could have been written better, now couldn't they?

Does is suffer from the lack of professional editing? Yes, and this is its biggest flaw. On the other hand, since ALL of the literary publishing houses had refused to publish it...the alternative was NOT to publish it.

January 21, 2003, 05:50 AM
[I was unimpressed with UC, both as a novel and as a pro-freedom novel. There are better works out there.]

and those would be?

Al Norris
January 21, 2003, 06:23 AM
After I had heard about this book for some time, I found some copies at a gun show. A friend and I both bought a copy (note: the larger gun shows will almost always have some dealer there that sells lots of books, and will almost always have a copy or three of Unintended Consequences).

This was almost 3 years ago.

If you are reading the book for it's history, stop reading at the end of part one. If you are reading the book to understand the Law of Unintended Consequences, then read it all the way through. If you have another reason to read it, then read what you want.

The book changed me in a subtle way. It showed me that I really had to think things through. Both in what I say and do, and for whom I vote for and the laws these people pass.

Whatever you got or get out of the book, will be whatever you get/got out of the book.

Bob Locke
January 21, 2003, 07:16 AM
Had it given to me by a very good friend in Virginia. I, too, couldn't put it down (think I ripped through it in 3 days).

I'm with the crowd that very much liked the first, historical half, of the book, and was just okay with the second half.

I think that most of us, if honest, will admit to having thoughts/dreams that pretty well parallel a lot of what took place during Henry Bowman's "movement".

Gave a copy to my dad for Father's Day two years ago. He liked it well enough, too.

"Time to feed the hogs" is going to be around for a long, long time, though!

Chris Rhines
January 21, 2003, 08:05 AM
And those would be? Glad you asked. :) Victor Koman's Kings of the High Frontier, F. Paul Wilson's An Enemy of the State and the Repairman Jack series, L. Neil Smith's Pallas. El Neil has done a ton of pro-freedom sci-fi novels, but Pallas is really his best. I enjoyed the others as well, but he really tends to beat the reader with the libertarian stick...

- Chris

Don Gwinn
January 21, 2003, 08:22 AM
No offense, BDB, but I think you're holding to a pretty narrow view of what books have changed the world. The Bible? OK, granted. How about the Koran? Confucius' text (I admit I can't think of the name, but I think Confucianism may have had a LITTLE impact on the world.) Das Kapital? Uncle Tom's Cabin? The Jungle?

Some of those were widely read, and some were read by people who were in a position to make a difference for whatever reason. I don't think UC has done anything to rock the foundations of our society yet, either, but I don't know what's coming in ten years.

Probably you're right that the gun technicalities and the violence against government agents turn some fence-sitters off, but sometimes that's the risk you have to take when you're right.

Joe Demko
January 21, 2003, 08:26 AM
UC is a polemic, much of which I agree with, buried in a novel that I can only describe as "drek." On TFL, we once all went round and round in a similar thread about Ayn Rand. Agreement with the political bent of UC doesn't magically turn it into a good novel. Call me unforgiving, but I'm not willing to cut an author slack (as an author) just because he likes guns.

January 21, 2003, 08:58 AM
A novel of this type will elicit mediocre emotions, generally, during the time frame of its birth.
Of course there are those, I consider myself one, who will look beyond the mechanical merits, or lack thereof, and recognize that the true meaning and power of this book perhaps will not be truly known for decades.
I don't consider UC a fluff novel. Obviously some here do.
While critiquing a fluff novel, it's easy and even important to dissect it based on its literary merits.
There are some tomes, however that will most likely go down as important political science novels as the future unfolds.
UC is one of few novels, past or present, that is willing to shine light on likely future events; events that are truly within the realm of possibility.

80 proudly gives UC two thumbs up.

January 21, 2003, 09:39 AM
I just had to chime in and add that I really liked the book and have read it twice. I'm sure I'll read it a third time. I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Ross at Knob Creek this past fall. That was totally cool! :cool:

Monte Harrison
January 21, 2003, 09:45 AM
So it is kinda like the "Left Behind" series for gun people? You have to overlook the laughably, appallingly bad writing and weak narrative and plod through because the message is so important? I don't suppose there are Cliff's Notes available?

January 21, 2003, 09:59 AM
What the book does is put historical information (that we should all, as gunowners, be aware of) into a format that more of us might read. Not all will take the time to research the sordid history of gun laws and ATF abuses - John Ross did it and tried to put it into an entertaining format. Kinda like the "comic book" instruction manuals the military is using.

BTW, I am on my second reading of UC.

January 21, 2003, 10:02 AM
I wouldn't say its the "Left Behind" for gun people. I liked that series up until the last two books and I just couldn't take the writing and over exageration of some things, in particular the power of the .50 BMG rifle. I think they got lazy after to many books and didn't put the research into it that they should have.

UC on the other hand I think is very well researched - in all aspects. The only thing to do is to read it and decide for yourself.

Oh - and I think Left Behind is more for the fence sitters as compared to UC which is probably geared more towards "gunners", but can still sway the undecided.

January 21, 2003, 10:11 AM
Hmm ... I rather enjoyed the book (part of the 3 day crowd). Must have an atrocious taste in literature.

January 21, 2003, 11:15 AM
Well, I know John, and he ain't Billy Shakespeare. He ain't even Bubba Shakespeare.

But overall, it's a good book.

I think that the story of the increasing oppression of the American gun owner is the important part, essentially culminating when the professional hunter returns from Africa. Everything else is sorta interesting.

I bought my first copy when I was in Greg Pugh's (his publisher) office, and he told me to give him money and take the darn book. Well, I did...

Most of the "anti-gun" crowd mean well at first. They just fail to see the consequences of their actions.

rock jock
January 21, 2003, 11:55 AM
As a novel, I found it to be contrived and poorly written
My thoughts exactly. In fact, it was so bad I am willing to unload mine for the cost of shipping.

January 21, 2003, 12:28 PM
Rock Jock:

I would be happy to purchase your copy for the cost of shipping.

You can e-mail me or pm me if you would like. Thanks!:)

January 21, 2003, 01:29 PM

Everyone needs to read this book.

January 21, 2003, 01:39 PM
rock jock
if deal falls thru I could use another copy.

January 21, 2003, 02:14 PM
heres the new "UC":

January 21, 2003, 02:27 PM
I found a copy at the local library and read it.

Now, when I say I read it, I mean I really READ it! I went into my little den, immersed myself in the book and read it in 9 hours. By that time it was 3:30 in the morning and I was exhausted. So, I went to bed and slept until noon (I'm retired) when I got up and started re-reading parts of the story.

A few days later I ordered my own copy from Amazon and, when it arrived, continued to re-read the entire book. Since then, My wife has read it, as has her pastor and his wife. While many of us would prefer not to read about the sexploits of the various characters, we all realize that those things happen and ordinary people sometimes do them. The sex scenes tend to give the characters flesh without making or breaking the book.

Is UC a view of the future? Maybe, but it's more likely a view of one of several possible futures. As the author points out in his introduction, a small change in any of many minor events leading up to the First World War might have averted it, the ensuing WWII, the Cold War and much of what we are living through now... or it might not have made any difference at all.

We are playing the cards we have been dealt, but like in any game, knowing what cards have been played so far and having any slight inkling of what the future might hold can help us determine which card we should play next.

The Plainsman
January 21, 2003, 04:01 PM
I won't presume to comment on UC's literary qualities, but for a purely entertaining read, it was great. I still can't help hoping that something like the story might actually happen, to start our "leaders" thinking.

I've re-read the last 200 pages about a dozen times and I keep hoping.... (where's Henry when we need him?) :p

Art Eatman
January 21, 2003, 06:25 PM
The jacket picture makes you wonder about that far-fetched book: Heck, she's purtier than Elian.

So what's real?


January 21, 2003, 07:22 PM
I bought the book for reading enjoyment. I did not expect it to change the world and it did not change it.

But it did get my dad to realize that what the talking babble box said about waco and some other events was not the full and complete truth. This is the only method that worked in getting him to look into those events himself.

I have 2 copies on loan with people right now, a few I have loaned the books to in the past have since bought their own copies.

I read an awful lot. This book is one of my favorites because it winds some awful events of the past together in a manner I enjoy reading about.

I can certainly see some thinking it is too long or has parts that do not build upon the characters or story line.

However I think it is detailed enough to help some people learn about events they may never have heard about, and I feel characters should be fully rounded.

January 21, 2003, 07:30 PM
Received it today, and will start it tonite. Let's see what it's all about!

January 21, 2003, 07:43 PM
I haven't checked right thru to see but ... I was lucky enough to get mine as a .PDF file of a site ...... not sure of the URL right now at all but I did archive the file. It's 3.8 meg ...... and if there was any interest I could upload it to a site and make it available for a short while, as long as bandwidth didn't get too silly!

It is IMO a gripping novel ... much there to identify with .. many parallels etc.

Mad Man
January 21, 2003, 07:44 PM
Unfortunately, publication of this (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=6U8HY37YPI&isbn=0895262738&itm=16) was cancelled after I placed my order. Weinberger (former Secy. of Defense for President Reagan) and Schweizer wrote The Next War (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0895264471/qid=1043195984/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-5649874-3595135?v=glance&s=books) a few years before this.

Enemy within: A Novel of the Next Civil War

Caspar Weinberger (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?userid=67ERM9WOCM&mscssid=7K69K9K395S92NGE0017QUW4X36EE42A&author_last=Weinberger&author_first=Caspar&match=exact&options=and) Peter Schweizer (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?userid=67ERM9WOCM&mscssid=7K69K9K395S92NGE0017QUW4X36EE42A&author_last=Schweizer&author_first=Peter&match=exact&options=and)


bn.com Price: $27.95
Available: Ships 1-2 weeks
Format: Hardcover, 380pp.
ISBN: 0895262738
Publisher: Regnery Publishing, Inc. (http://www.regnery.com/), An Eagle Publishing Co.
Pub. Date: November 1999
bn.com sales rank: 586,233

From The Publisher
For more than a century, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, has been the place where the United States prepares its most promising commanders to prepare for the next crisis. Increasingly, they anticipate a domestic role for the military. This year military leaders conducted a hypothetical wargame called Prairie Warrior. The scenario: a rebellion in the continental United States. From this true beginning, best-selling authors Caspar Weinberger and Peter Schweizer spin off the political thriller of the year.

State leaders in Idaho, Montana, Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas have launched referenda in 2012 to reject widespread federal authority. When the initiatives pass with narrow majorities, and governors sympathetic to the movement are elected in these states, a constitutional crisis develops. Newly elected President Morgan Boyd must deal with a Union that appears to be dissolving. Sensing the opportunity to make trouble, America's friends and enemies get involved, looking for an opportunity to benefit from the domestic political turmoil and the uncertainty in the armed forces.

This book will not only provide plenty of action, it will also address some profoundly important questions concerning the role of government, and warnings about the apparent trend toward a greater domestic role for the armed forces.

January 21, 2003, 08:09 PM
bogie wrote:

Well, I know John

In the forward of the book, Ross wrote of warnings that he should not publish the book under his real name...after so doing, I seem to recall some incidents where batf tried to set him up by enlisting an ex-wife in some fashion. To the point where he retained a lawyer to fight them off.

Bogie, perhaps you can shed some light on this, and has Ross had any other heat come down on him as a result of writing the book?

January 21, 2003, 08:24 PM
I too burned through it one long weekend.Unfortunately,my
reaction at the end was "thats it?Thats what all the fuss was about?"
I enjoyed it,but it just seemed terminally long winded and
I will read it again,maybe start tonight.


January 23, 2003, 11:59 AM
I picked my copy up Tuesday evening. I was up until 01:00 reading before I forced myself to put it down (alarm goes off at 04:55). Last night I managed to force it down at 00:35. I'm about half way through it. Two nights now, up late burning the midnight oil with UC.

To those of you who called it "dreck", I must respectfully disagree. Yeah, Henry might be larger than life... but so are many fictional characters.

I read. Voraciously. My hobbies are guns, knives, martial arts and books. (So any book with guns, knives, and martial arts is GOOD!) While Unintended Consequences is not the best novel I've ever read, in my not so humble opinion, ranks in the top 15% of them.

Having said that, I think the worst thing about the book, so far, is it's cover. :what: Not that I don't appreciate it, but I believe the correct terminology for that style would be "lurid"!

Byron Quick
January 23, 2003, 12:29 PM
Many people once criticized Robert Heinlein for his larger than life characters...especially the female characters. How unrealistic they cried. They hadn't considered his wife: multiple advanced degrees, fluent in several languages, she lettered in four sports in college. Sadly, Virginia Heinlein passed away this past weekend.

Look around folks. Those "larger than life" people are out there...and they're really rather common.

January 23, 2003, 12:30 PM
Lady Liberty being sordidly sullied by a JBT.

Yup. Fairly lurid - and appropriate, for this book, but not nearly so to reflect reality.

Oleg Volk
January 23, 2003, 12:53 PM
heres the new "UC":

UC was an important book. EF&D is also a well-written book, with more realistic characters. I can't wait for the printed version.

January 23, 2003, 01:13 PM
Thanks, Oleg. By the way, I seem to recall that cover graphic from TFL... a dZ photoshop offering, perhaps? Was Bracken a TFL member?

Travis McGee
January 23, 2003, 01:45 PM

Doc Zox (dZ) has very kindly allowed me to use his absolutely stunning rattlesnake-M-16 graphic for my cover art, in fact he ginned up several covers for me including the one on the website.

I saw dZ's snake/M-16 Gadsen a year of so ago and have always considered it to be the perfect cover for Enemies Foreign And Domestic, and I am just thrilled that Doc is letting me use it.

January 23, 2003, 04:24 PM
Travis McGee
Looks like a interresting book. When do you plan to have a bunch more ready for shipment? I sent a e-mail with same name for one. Let me know when to send check.

January 23, 2003, 09:00 PM

Hmmmm, I can't think of any book, save the Bible, that qualifies, and those who claim to have read the Bible and really do, are the minority.

I could qualify there read it all,and I'm not even a christian! (Interesting story)


I bought the book over a year ago, though it drags at first, it does provide a good background of where we were and how we got where we are.:banghead: (Read it over a weekend.)

Also like L. Niel Smith, read Probability Broach back in the early 80's, some of the works between there and Pallas were a bit plodding though.

January 24, 2003, 01:02 AM
I high lighted the sex related portions of the book so I can skip over them if I re-read it. Some of you thought it was too long, but I enjoyed the climactic ending. I wished it could have lasted longer though.

George Hill
January 24, 2003, 01:07 AM
Anyone have this as an E-Book?
I'd like to download this one onto my iPaq.

January 24, 2003, 01:19 AM
Im actully surprised that there are allot of people that havent read this book in a forum involved with RKBA. Interesting.

January 24, 2003, 01:33 AM
12.7... Exactly, that was the first thing that I thought of when I started reading through this thread!! I mean, this book wasn't written yesterday.

Travis McGee
January 24, 2003, 02:45 AM

Thanks Larry. I'll let you know when "Enemies Foreign And Domestic" is printed and ready to ship.

Matt Bracken/"Travis McGee"

Travis McGee
January 24, 2003, 02:52 AM
Mountain Peak:

You may be interested to know that unlike UC, there is no lurid gratuitous three way sex with strippers in "Enemies Foreign And Domestic".

There is a love story, but more on the level of Casablanca than Debbie Does Dallas. You will not be ashamed to lend this book to a relative.

Matt Bracken/Travis McGee

January 25, 2003, 01:05 PM
Just be aware, UC contains innacurate statements about Waco.

Shooter 2.5
January 25, 2003, 02:13 PM

I was also shocked that he included comments about the JFK assassination without trying to be accurate. It did fit a couple of guys sitting around and BSing but to continue urban legend silliness was uncalled for.

January 25, 2003, 05:54 PM
I have a copy. Tried to finish it but it was just too discriptive for me. I just lost interest and patience.

January 25, 2003, 06:47 PM
Shooter 2.5
You know the REAL story about the JKF assassination ? Saw it on TV I bet, that's the place for the truth.

Travis McGee
January 25, 2003, 08:39 PM
Shooter 2.5

Howdy Shooter! Can you tell me how the heck you find out if someone is responding to you on a THR thread? How do you find old threads you replied to a while ago? Where in the devil is the "My Comments" button???


January 25, 2003, 10:16 PM
Travis, thanks for the response to my first post in this thread, but you may want to read it again. It was written with tongue firmly planted in cheek. :D

Travis McGee
January 26, 2003, 03:52 AM
Mountain Peak

Actually I caught the tongue in cheek (" Ihighlighted the sexy parts to be able to avoid them"). But you raised the issue of one of the knocks against UC, that the raunchy sex turned off a major chunk of its most likely potential target audience, namely conservatives of a somewhat family-values bent.

In Enemies Foreign And Domestic I also have the goal of penetrating beyond that limited market which wants to re-re-re-read the entire history of the gun culture in the 20th century. This extra 300 pages of gun history was another short coming of UC, at least in having it read beyond that relatively small market of hard core shooters who also enjoy hard core sex in their novels. A 300 page history of the gun culture is a wonderful thing and deserves its own book, just not in the middle of a novel.

There is little to be gained in the RKBA debate by writing a book which will have zero appeal beyond "the choir", so I am just calling a Colt .45 a Colt .45, and I am not giving the life and times of John Moses Browing, the Moro wars in the Philippines and the inadequate .38, Jeff Cooper as a young man, and on and on until the adoption of the Berretta 9mm. I am just calling a .45 a .45 and moving on with the plot. It's an RKBA tale to be sure, but told more in the style of Stephen Hunter than Ross or Clancy.

Give it a look, the first half is posted in the EnemiesForeignAndDomestic website.

Byron Quick
January 26, 2003, 08:56 AM
but told more in the style of Stephen Hunter than Ross or Clancy.

Travis, those are some pretty big shoes there, fella. I'll have to check out the book. No gratuitous sex?:neener:

Travis McGee
January 26, 2003, 11:49 AM
Byron Quick

There's non-raunchy sex in Enemies Foreign And Domestic, but it's between the hero and heroine after a lot of build up.

It's not three-way sex in the target room during a shooting match between folks who just met, like it was in UC.

Think Casablanca, not Deep Throat.

Art Eatman
January 26, 2003, 12:58 PM
I've recommended UC to non-gun folks with "The first half is a reasonably accurate portrayal of gun-control activities. And, SFAIK, the alleged motivations for gun-control laws jibe with what I've read elsewhere."

In a tad over four years of reading what folks here and at TFL know or don't know about gun-control laws, I see that first half of UC as a reasonably good one-source reference. Sure, there's better stuff, but not all in one place. The thing is, you can find some reference in UC and then go Googling for the "real" story.


Shooter 2.5
January 26, 2003, 02:47 PM
There are facts that are undisputable iin the JFK assassination without bringing up any controversy.
I was shocked that a gun person such as Ross would claim something that was easily refuted.

I have never watched anything on TV or the movies about the assassination.

Shooter 2.5
January 26, 2003, 02:52 PM

I did a search on my name and set it up to reveal posts and not threads. I'm new here and I'm still having trouble.

I can't even save my login. I haven't logged into FR for years now. In case you miss this, I'll ping you on FR. George

January 26, 2003, 03:03 PM
Shooter 2.5
That was kind of a cheap shot, but with so much controversy surrounding the subject, I had to hear where you were coming from. Thank you for the reply.

Travis McGee
January 26, 2003, 04:39 PM
Shooter 2.5

I'm still trying to get the hang of this place too. I used to lurk on TFL, and I used if for some firearms related research, but posting and replying on this style of forum seems very unwieldy, at least compared to FR.

January 26, 2003, 10:06 PM
Borrowed the book from biere (thanks!), and despite the fact that it contains some completely unnecessary sex scenes and is quite a bit too long, it's a must-read for anyone in the "gun culture." The history alone qualifies it for must-read status, IMHO. If you haven't read it, by all means get your hands on a copy and give it a look. It'll be time well spent.

shoot straight,

January 26, 2003, 11:57 PM
For those who think a NOVEL should be great literature to be enjoyed, I read a great quote today. " I don't read Faulker, a novel should be enjoyed, not have to be studied."
No, I'm not saying where it came from because it was NOT in "great literature" just a cheap series novel.:neener:

Travis McGee
January 27, 2003, 04:30 PM

I don't know where "Enemies Foreign And Domestic" is going to fall out, at the literature end or the cheap series side, but I think it's going to be the best damn gun thriller since Hunter's "Point of Impact", and the most significant RKBA book since UC.

But I may be predjudiced, since it's my baby.

January 27, 2003, 08:51 PM
I've heard that about the book somewhere?!! Just can't remember who brought it up?;) I will read your book. Thought I should add, I'm one of those people that love almost all firearms/2nd Amendment reads. I liked "Death by Gun Control" and "The State vs The People", typos. and all.:)

Travis McGee
January 27, 2003, 10:58 PM
Hopefully I won't have too many typos! I have a group of about a half dozen freepers who read and check and critique each new chapter as I put them into MS Word.

The etire book exists on 850 sides of looseleaf in 4 X 3" binders; I have put 32 chapters into Word and have about 20 more to go.

The first half of the book is posted on the website, so even if folks don't want to buy it (fine by me) they will be exposed to the issues and dangers raised.

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