45 ACP +P Load


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chrisf8657
January 25, 2010, 10:40 PM
I have a load of 5.8g of HP-38 for 950fps/230g +P
Trying to duplicate Federal Tactical 230 +P HST (950fps)

Original listed load is here (I reduced .2g for 950)

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=45%20ACP%20%20P&Weight=230&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

Anyone have an issue with this?



CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

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Casefull
January 26, 2010, 12:05 AM
I am not familiar with that powder but the velocity sounds fine if your brass looks good.

bds
January 26, 2010, 12:08 AM
Hodgdon HP38 is now the same powder as Winchester 231.

ants
January 26, 2010, 01:17 AM
A resource like Handloads.com must be taken with a grain of salt. Anyone - and that means anyone - can sign up and list a load. The load may be safe, or the load may be dangerous. There is no one monitoring Handloads.com for your safety, nor testing the loads for compliance with industry standards. Until you get many years of experience under your belt, please follow published resources from well-known bullet, powder, or equipment manufacturers.

ArchAngelCD
January 26, 2010, 02:27 AM
My favorite standard pressure .45 Auto load is a 230gr LRN or FMJ bullet over 5.5gr W231/HP-38. I'm sure a charge of 5.8gr is still withing safe limits as long as you don't seat the bullet too deep. (but of course you have to make that decision for yourself)

MAXM
January 26, 2010, 02:31 AM
Hello :), I doubt a lot that you'll get 950 fps from a 5" barrell with that load.
Please keep us informed about your trials.

Galil5.56
January 26, 2010, 07:04 AM
Chris,

To give you some perspective from my load book, I worked up and load 6.1 grains WW231/230 grain Speer Gold Dot, and it gets 821 fps avg from my 4.4" P220. 5.5 grains of WW231/225 lead TC gives 774 fps from the same pistol. 5.7/5.8 gr WW231/HP-38 and a "GI" style 230 FMJ bullet will usually achieve right around 830 fps from a 5" 1911.

For top "+P"/beyond std type velocities, HS-6, AA#5, Power Pistol, and Unique have worked well for me, and I bet will for you too.

mongoose33
January 26, 2010, 07:54 AM
I'm running 5.7 gr. of W231 (Same as HP38) under a 230-grain Hornady XTP.

That load averages out at about 850 fps (chrono'd). That's out of a 4" barrel.

I'm with the others--I can't see how you're getting 950fps out of that load.

huntershooter
January 26, 2010, 09:01 AM
If you're looking for a 950 fps with a 230 gr. JHP try HS6 or AA#7.
I've had good luck with both, but prefer HS6.

Walkalong
January 26, 2010, 09:05 AM
A slower powder would be more suited to try to ge the max from .45 ACP.

+1 on hanloader.com and being careful. Like ants posted, any Tom, Dick, and Harry can post there.

5.8 is under max for some old data with W-231/HP-38, but it is over much of the more recent data. It is also quite snappy. The Midway Load Map goes to 6.1, but it is in the "Red" area. 5.8 is in the "yellow" IIRC. Try Unique or AA #5 for some nice 850 FPS .45 loads.

I also agree that 950 FPS with that load is questionable. Did you chrono it?

A 230 at 840ish is all you need anyway. It's what the 1911 is designed for, and will get the job done all day long.

If you are feeling real froggy, want to get max velocity, and don't mind beating up your gun, find some old Ramshot Enforcer data for .45 ACP.

MAXM
January 26, 2010, 10:36 AM
+1.
Recently I've run some pressure barrell tests with. .45 ACP and HP-38, and I can tell that - WITH THE TESTED LOT of HP-38, WLP Primers, NNY thin cases, 1.263" OAL, 230 Prvi Partizan 230 FMJ bullets - 5.8 grains are well below the SAAMI .45 ACP (not +P) max pressure level.
Nevertheless, Hp-38/WW231 isn't the powder for +P .45 ACP reloads!

In my experience an excellent powder for full power loads is VV N350, but even with it, 950 fps (5" barrell) with 230 grains bullets are really too risky, at least for me.
IMHO, IMMV, etc. etc.. :)

Clark
January 26, 2010, 12:26 PM
1) 45 acp.................. 18,000psi
2) 45 acp +P...............21,700 psi
3) 45 Super.................28,000 cup
4) 460 Rowland............38,800 cup

I have a number of 45acp handguns.
I have one that gets +P, one gets 45 Super, and one gets 460 Rowland level handloads of 45acp.

It all is affected by case support and it all affects recoil.

LightningMan
January 26, 2010, 06:30 PM
The Hodgdon No. 26 edition manual has data for .45 acp +P loads, and none exceed 20,000 CUP. The main two powders they show are HS6 & HP38. They used a test barrel of 5" and HS6 seems to get the most velocity per different bullet weights with exception of 260 gr. bullets. Anyway, the data for +P 230 gr. bullets is using 9.3 grs. of HS6, is supposed to get you 981 fps. out of that 5" test barrel. You may or may not get this velocity. LM

Galil5.56
January 26, 2010, 06:59 PM
My log for 8.8 grains HS-6/230 grain Speer Gold Dot:

SIG P220 CCI 300

834
838
837
848
856

Av 842
ES 22
SD 9

Ad quality expansion in water jugs, and very similar in sopping wet phone books:

http://i45.tinypic.com/rcpssy.jpg


Chronograph used was a ProChrono Digital. Had it been one of my two Shooting Chrony's :barf: , avg would have been around 890 fps or more.

Steve C
January 26, 2010, 09:06 PM
You don't say what bullet you are using. Extra velocity beyond what the bullet is designed for generally gets poorer performance. I don't believe that the Hydrashoks or the HST's are available for the reloader.

One thing to remember in working with the .45 acp and other lower pressure cartridges is that you are unlikely to see typical over pressure signs until you are way beyond the maximum SAAMI levels. SAAMI max pressure for the .45 ACP +P is 23,000 psi and 21,000 psi for standard. The 9mm standard load, .40 S&W, .357 mag, and .41 mag all have a maximum pressure of 35,000 psi for a 1.5 times the maximum .45 +P pressure and they do it without flattened, cratered or pierced primers. How far the cases are being thrown from your .45 is a more reliable tell on pressure than looking at primers.

That said, HP38 and W231 are a relatively fast powder and unlikely to give you the desired velocity within pressure guidelines. For 950 fps with a 230gr bullet you need to use something a bit slower like Unique, Power Pistol, or Accurate No. 5 to stay in the +P pressure limits.

chrisf8657
January 27, 2010, 12:55 AM
Thanks guys.
It appears that load is wrong as a few of you said - I saw 76x fps for .2g less also...

Anyways, I have 9.0g of HS-6 for a +P load at about 950.

This gentelemen has also tested some loads, would like to know what you think of them:
http://www.realguns.com/loads/45auto.htm

ArchAngelCD
January 27, 2010, 04:19 AM
Chris, what is the OAL of the ammo you are building? It is important for pressure and velocity. Also, I agree if you want a good +P load HS-6 is probably the best powder for the job. Also, 9.0gr HS-6 sounds very hot for a .45 Auto load, even at +P pressures. Again, what is the OAL of that load and are you guessing on the velocity or running those loads over a chrono?

Galil5.56
January 27, 2010, 10:09 AM
This gentelemen has also tested some loads, would like to know what you think of them:
http://www.realguns.com/loads/45auto.htm

Every time I see that last load of 6.1 of Unique, I'm thinking either he meant a "7", his Shooting Chrony acts like mine did, or he used that recalled batch of Unique that actually had Bullseye in the #8 drum :eek: ... No way 6.1 grains of Unique/230 grain GD is getting 950 fps from a 1911. Even though I like HS-6 with the loads I mentioned, I'm seeing Power Pistol as the best one to get the velocities near 950 fps, and that Hodgdon many times is very optimistic with regard to velocity achieved in actual everyday guns... At least my testing says so.

MAXM
January 27, 2010, 11:23 AM
quote: ...Hodgdon many times is very optimistic with regard to velocity achieved in actual everyday guns... At least my testing says so.



A big +1! :scrutiny:

Galil5.56
January 27, 2010, 11:44 AM
Hey MAXM, can you run some pressure barrel tests with the 230 grain FMJ bullets you have using Power Pistol (Alliant's current 8.1 grain max), Unique (6.5-old 7.2 grain max), and HS-6 (my 8.8 grain load and the 9.3 grain +P)? I hope you might have some of these propellants laying around the shop from previous write-ups/load tests for the magazine.

Also curious if you could also include 5" non revolver chronograph results with the pressure tested loads.

Thanks!

SSN Vet
January 27, 2010, 01:05 PM
Chiming in with a related question....

If you intend to shoot full power (not really +P) in a steel framed Commander....

let's say for instance, 5.5 to 5.7 gr. of W-231 behind a 230 gr. jacketed bullet...

is the standard 18# recoil spring right for the task?

are there observable indications that you should increase the stiffness of the recoil spring?

MAXM
January 27, 2010, 01:42 PM
I'm sorry Galil5.56,
Alliant powders aren't available here in Italy :banghead:.
HS-6 is difficult to find, but available; I don't have it, but in future I plan to find and test it.

Friendly :),
Maxm

bionian
January 27, 2010, 06:57 PM
My favorite standard pressure .45 Auto load is a 230gr LRN or FMJ bullet over 5.5gr W231/HP-38

Newbie question: I thought that the loads were different between LRN and FMJ. I am using Bullseye, and although I don't have my Speer manual with me, I think the recommended load for LRN 230gr is 5.0 gr, while the load for 230gr FMJ is something like 5.7gr. Is it safe to use the same load for both?

Walkalong
January 27, 2010, 07:31 PM
5.5 Grs of W-231 will work for any 200 to 230 Gr lead, plated, or jacketed bullet at any sane O.A.L. in .45 ACP.

5.0 & lead is a proven load for lighter recoil, but 5.5 will work just fine. Back in the day all I shot in .45 ACP was either 5.0 or 5.5 Grs of W-231 and lead 200 & 225 Gr bullets. 5.0 when I didn't want full recoil, 5.5 when I did.

ArchAngelCD
January 28, 2010, 05:54 AM
Newbie question: I thought that the loads were different between LRN and FMJ. I am using Bullseye, and although I don't have my Speer manual with me, I think the recommended load for LRN 230gr is 5.0 gr, while the load for 230gr FMJ is something like 5.7gr. Is it safe to use the same load for both?
Yes, most times the powder charge weights for the same weight lead and jacketed bullets will be different. In this case for some reason the powder charge weights for most (but not all) Hodgdon/Winchester/IMR powders are the same for both 230gr bullets. I guess it's just one of those things where the numbers just meet...

chrisf8657
January 28, 2010, 09:52 PM
The expected COAL is ~1.260, possibly ~1.250 if possible.
I am using Speer 230g GDHP, and new Starline 45 +P brass.

I have basically settled on 7.5g of Power Pistol, looks to be the most recommended load outside of 9.0g of HS-6.

Let me know what you all think.

ConcernedCitizen
January 29, 2010, 01:45 AM
The Midway Load Map goes to 6.1, but it is in the "Red" area.

Does anybody know where you can still find copies of these? The one I have is one of my favorite reloading manuals, but they no longer offer these last time I looked.

If anyone can point me in the right direction I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks!

ForneyRider
January 31, 2010, 02:24 PM
I use 7.5gr of Power Pistol as well. works great, just measure carefully. I had one go through the chrony at 1000fps and it was uncomfortable. Mostly, they are around 950fps.

I use 5.3gr or less of W231 for target shooting with 230gr and 200gr bullets. 850fps.

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