[GM7RQK]

Over here my only experiance of automatics has been in the army, we were taught to carry (on the odd time we used handguns) with the hammer down on an empty chamber.
I've seen many pictures on THR of members guns (thanks, it's nice to look even if I can't get one here) and many of them show the hammer at full stand, I was wondering if this is for photographing or do members carry in this condition?
I realise this may vary depending on the action or safeties fitted to the gun, and I certainly don't want to imply that I'm critesising anyone's method of doing things but are there safety implications for going cocked and locked or am I making a mountain out of a molehll.

Thanks in advance for any comments.

Stephen

[AndABeer]

99% of the people on this website will tell you that if they carry a 1911, they carry it C&L as it was designed to be carried.

[Smoke]

99% of the people on this website will tell you that if they carry a 1911, they carry it C&L as it was designed to be carried.

And he would be 100% correct.

Smoke

[MaterDei]

I spent 11 years in the Army and agree that we typically did not carry loaded 45s around. However, when we did, it was in 'Condition One' (cocked and locked).

An example. While stationed in Germany, most Lieutenants were occasionally assigned an extra duty called 'pay officer'. We would be issued a bunch of cash, $50K- $100K, depending on unit size, in both US and German currency (the mark at the time). We would go to our units and cash our troops' pay checks if they wanted. Or we would just act as currency exchangers. During this duty I would carry in condition one and my enlisted guard would carry his assigned M-16, locked and loaded, with the selector switch on 'safe'.

Just curious, what branch were you in? Army too?

[GM7RQK]

Thanks for the replies so far folks.

MaterDei : Sorry should have said I was in the teritorrial army (rough equivilent to the national guard I belive) but was unemployed at the time and the COs full time driver, much of this was done in civilian clothes at the time (hence the handgun from time to time), having a round in the chamber at any time other than when about to fire was a big no no in handgun or rifle. Diferent rules for different countries I suppose.

[10mmshooter]

After purchasing my 1st 1911, I began to research the weapon. After learning about the inner-workings of the pistol, I have absolutely no doubt that it is as safe to carry cocked and locked, as my old Glock was to carry with a round in the chamber....probably more so.
I think the number one reason for people getting nervous about a 1911 carried in this manner, has to do with the visual perception of the weapon, more than the logistics of the situation. If the average citizen realized that the only thing keeping a police officers' Glock from firing is the series of "internal safeties" that that style of weapon is designed with...they would be screaming for more safety measures to control these "rogue" cops who walk around with a pistol ready to fire.
Personally, my 1911 has a grip safety, a thumb safety, a half-cock position, and a competent handler...that all contributes to the safety of the weapon. When I need a pistol for protection, I have zero concerns about carrying a 1911 cocked and locked.

[Tamara]

I've gotten to the point where 1911's look funny to me if their hammer is forward. That's the "long-term unloaded storage position." :uhoh:

[Sean Smith]

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/cockedandlocked.htm

[DMK]

Condition 3 (hammer down on empty chamber with no safety), while certainly safe, is not a good defensive posture, especially for a civilian. Since a number of extremely bad things must happen for a defender to legally draw a gun, by the time the requirements for lawful use of deadly force are satisfied, there is very little time to react. There is also a good chance that you may not have both hands available to rack the slide and charge your weapon. Condition 3 puts a defender at a great disadvantage.

These days, it seems that many CCW guns, service guns and all double action revolvers are to be carried in Condition 2 (hammer down on live round, no safety) Perhaps an unfounded fear, but Condition 2 scares me. A lot of accidental discharges are caused by something(finger, clothing, etc) getting in the trigger guard unintentionally. Many times this happens when reholstering. Of course, nothing but luck will protect you from negligent gun handling, but I like the added security of mechanical safeties.

I carry one of two 1911s as a CCW and I carry them in Condition 1 (C&L). In my opinion I feel this is the safest way to carry and one of the reasons I chose a 1911 as my defensive sidearm. To fire the weapon from Condition 1, three things have to happen: 1) The thumb safety must be disengaged, 2) The grip safety must be squeezed, 3) The trigger must be pressed.

[Siggyboy]

That's a good article that Sean links to.

Cocked and locked is the proper way to carry a few single action pistols such as the 1911 and the Browning Hi-Power.

These guns were designed for such carry and it is seeing the hammer cocked back on a loaded chamber that gives the perception of danger to the uninitiated. That said, these weapons do require a degree of training and proficiency in gun handling in order to safely operate them IMO. I have confidence that a 1911 is safe C&L, as there is the engaged thumb safety, the grip safety, the firing pin safety (on some), and the half-cock safety notch. The biggest thing to remember is to make sure the thumb saftey is engaged and your finger is off the trigger until the gun is up and on target.

I agree that some countries have different rules for how their military carries weapons. The Israelis apparently carry with a loaded mag but not loaded gun (condition 3) and must rack the slide to chamber a round before their weapon is operable.

[jar]

Yup. C&L for the ones designed for that.

[Old Fuff]

GM7RQK:

During those rare times that you were issued a pistol what make and model was it? This could make a big difference.

I suspect that it might have been a Browning P-35 Hi-Power. If so, I think it is common for military and police organizations to specify, "hammer down on an unloaded chamber."

In the United States more emphasis is put on making a quick response to a threat. Consequently cocked & locked carry is more acceptable, but only with certain pistols - usually those based on the Colt Government Model design.

I am delighted that you are still able to enjoy our forum. Do come often.

[RWK]

GM7RQZ,

I have been carrying 1911A1s – both as a Naval officer and since retirement – for over 35 years. This weapon was DESIGNED for Condition Once carriage; it is safe, sure and fast when carried as designed. Condition Three is also safe, but is not rapidly responsive. When carried properly and with a fully functional 1911A1, Condition One is fully dependable, safe, and effective.

[GM7RQK]

Fuff : Yes it was the FN manufactured version of the browning high power (I couldn't have remembered the model number mind you), we also used the FN SLR rifle in those days (ouch just realised how long ago) and had to carry it the same way. Our colour sargent was fond of taking a rifle off a man at random and pulling the trigger, woe betide anyone who's gun went bang :)

Thanks for the replies folks(and the article link Sean), it's interesting that the 1911 was designed that way but certainly looks odd (to my eyes) with the hammer back. I have a 1911 here in CO2 that I use for IPSC style shoots sometimes (though I prefer the walther CP99 for that job). Please don't rag us too much for shooting CO2, it's all we can get over here and at least it keeps us shooting.

Stephen

[1911Tuner]

Just so happens that I conducted a test of the 1911's relative safety during a cocked and locked carry. (I'm always doin' SOME kinda testin')

Although I do like the extra security of a Series 80 type passive firing pin block for Con-1 in an open topped holster, the pre-Series 80/Series 2s
are not prone to discharge from this mode.

I used a Dremel to grind about an eighth of an inch from the nose of an
old sear, and installed it in a pistol, using two different hammers for the test. One was an old GI hammer with a broken hook, and the other was
a Series 80 Colt hammer with the safety shelf instead of the true half-
cock notch. Going further, the one good hook on the GI hammer was
ground until it would jar off with a tap on the spur with a plastic mallet.
This was necessary because the sear would still allow full cock and wouldn't
fall without pulling the trigger. I ran this test to determine whether the
pistol would fire if the sear nose failed.

Jarring the hammer off the hooks wouldn't allow the hammer to fall past the half-cock notch with 50 attempts. The Series 80 hammer also had the
hooks ground off to let the hammer bump off the sear. The shelf caught
it 50 times, and never allowed the face of the hammer to reach the firing pin. I reached the conclusion that the sear would have to break in two
or three separate pieces before it would let the hammer fall to the pin.

Going a step further, I completely removed the hammer hooks so that I had to hold the hammer back and release it. I then engaged the thumb safety to see if it would slow the hammer's fall. It did slow it a little, but
the half-cock notch stopped it cold...so I then removed the notch and
ground an angle to allow the hammer to get past the sear, and repeated the test with a primed case in the chamber. It took 37 attempts before I
got the primer to fire. Keep in mind that 1/8 inch of the sear nose was
missing.

Safe to carry in Condition One? I think so.

Cheers!
Tuner

[10-Ring]

It took me a while to understand the 1911 & the mechanics behind condition 1, cocked & locked. In a properly maintained 1911, it is safe & very effective state of readiness.

[Grayrider]

1911Tuner,

I really appreciate your posts on this forum. I love the 1911, and I have never failed to learn something about it from your posts. One thing is certain, you have reinforced my already steadfast loyalty to this pistol.

GR

[1911Tuner]

Glad to do it Grayrider. I've been loyal to the pistol for nearly 40
years now, and it seems like about once a month I find somethin'
else to reinforce that.

John M.Browning...Git some!

Tuner

[GM7RQK]

1911Tuner

Impressed with your commitment, if I ever manage to get my hands on a 'real' 1911 I guess I know who to ask for advice. Well done sir.

Stephen

[JohnKSa]

Saying that C&L is safe is perfectly true--saying that the 1911 was designed to be carried that way is not.

Unless I'm badly mistaken, C&L carry didn't really start until the 1911 had been around for more than 40 years...

[Jammer Six]

It's safe.

But if you're looking for emotional security, simply get a holster with a thumb break. Then you don't have to trust the way it's built.

Have fun!

[Gerald McDonald]

I think C&L is the safest way to carry if you wish to have the handgun as a defense arm and its the way I carry.

I dont think it was originally designed for that as the first P-35 and 1911 safetys were so small as to be unuseable for quick safe operation, I believe it evolved into the preferred way of carry after years of use and a few adaptions of larger safetys.

[1911Tuner]

...that 1911s weren't carried cocked and locked early on was that the
average soldier didn't get a lot of training in the use of the pistol, other than the ones for whom the gun was really intended...the cavalry.
Knowing that most of their experience with firearms was limited to
lever-action rifles or double shotguns...and maybe a few single/double-action revolver shooters, the Army decided that the lads would likely
shoot themselves or their comrades with a cocked, single action autopistol.
The orders came down that carry would be limited to empty chamber until
action was iminent.

Was the pistol designed to be carried in Condition One? Yes. That's why it has such a robust and positive half-cock engagement...so that it WON'T
fire unless the trigger is pulled. The trigger is also blocked by the
grip safety so that the chance of it moving enough to rotate the sear
is pretty much voided unless it's in in a hand that is gripping it for firing.
Can't keep your finger off the trigger? Best carry a DA revolver...preferably
empty.

The relative safety of that mode of carry is mainly determined by training.
Is it safe in Con-One in untrained hands? No...but then, neither is any
other pistol. It's NOT safe. It's a GUN!

Cheers!
Tuner

[BluesBear]

The first 3 .45s I owned were honest to gosh exGI models witht eh "old style" thumb safety. I actually prefer those. There are damn near impossible so accidentally disengage by snagging on clothing and, to me at least, just as fast and easy to manipulate as the modern ones.

As for cocked & locked carry, I personally prefer to carry in a good thumb break holster. Not so much as for the hammer blocking ability but for the added security and weapon retention capability. Of course there is nothing wrong with that extra margin of safety accorded by that leather strip between the hammer and the slide. But that's just me, I also prefer the series 80 firing pin safety.

It's that combination of active and passive safeties that makes the 1911 style pistol my first choice in life saving equipment.



And just remember my opinions are worth every cent you paid for them. :D

[Tamara]

Unless I'm badly mistaken, C&L carry didn't really start until the 1911 had been around for more than 40 years...

I thought that, too, until I read an old field manual, which stated that the proper manual of arms for the pistol was to rack the slide, engage the safety, and put it in the holster. A later manual suggested that in rear areas, hammer down on an empty chamber was preferred for safety reasons.

[1911Tuner]

BluesBear said:

I also prefer the series 80

I do too, but it's advantage is mainly in my mind. The thought of
yet another redundant safety preventing a 230-grain slug from removing
a chunk of my arse is comforting...much like the pistol itself. Logically,
I know that the chances that I'll ever have need it are remote, but I still
like for it to be there.

Both designs require that the trigger be pulled in order to fire, and anything
that pulls the trigger..from your finger to a twig on a sapling...will accomplish the same thing. That's what the grip safety is there for.
The 1911 almost demands that the sequence firing sequence be deliberate. There are freak events that will result in a true AD,(As opposed to ND) but these will occur with about the same frequency as with any other design, with the possible exception of double-action revolvers.

The Series 80 firing pin safety system wasn't designed to make the pistol
safer to carry in Condition One...It was implemented to prevent a dishcharge if the weapon is dropped...after it was "discovered" that the gun would fire if dropped straight down on the muzzle onto concrete
from a height of about 10 feet. A fresh firing pin spring every so often pretty much takes care of dropping it from waist-high. Every 5-6,000 rounds is about right.

I also tend to agree on the old-style thumb safety. The paddle-style
thumb safeties are likely a result of many other changes made to the pistol
to suit the gamesman rather than the pistolero. With a properly fitted safety, the small pad makes no difference in how fast the safety can be disengaged...and some find it a little quicker.

Of course...YMMV.

Tuner

[1911Tuner]

Tamara Said:

I thought that, too, until I read an old field manual, which stated that the proper manual of arms for the pistol was to rack the slide, engage the safety, and put it in the holster.

Tamara, I've got one of those around here somewhere. I believe that
it states..."Whenever engagement with the enemy is anticipated"...which
means that any soldier who is on the front line and within range of
the enemy, whether or not engagement is iminent.

I also have the accounts of my grandfather, who was in the trenches
during WW1. He said that anybody who could scrounge a pistol, did...
and the ones who did kept them in condition one with the blessings of
the officers.

Good that you cleared that up. Misinformation thrives.

Tuner

[Ky Larry]

I carry my Kimber condition 1. If I ever need it quickly, it's ready to fire by the time I get it out of my holster and aimed. I doubt if a serious BG would give you time to jack a round into the chamber.

[Gerald McDonald]

The safety on an older 1911 isnt too bad, on a P35 its down right hard to operate.

[TonyB]

Hey....hold on....1911's aren't the only gun you can carry cocked and locked!!!My Taurus PT99 for example............C&L is the safe and ready position.............(my Glock is HC&UL(half cocked and unlocked))
Nothing against Scotland.....but Dude.......come to the states man,get a gun,a wife ,2.2 kids,minivan,mortagage,credit cards.........wait.....nevermind....as you were....:cool:

[GM7RQK]

Thanks for all the replys fokes, there is an amazing amount of knowledge on this board, and I hope someday I will get a chance to put it to good use.(although maybe without the minivan TonyB :) )

Be safe, shoot well

Stephen

[JohnKSa]

I thought that, too, until I read an old field manual, which stated that the proper manual of arms for the pistol was to rack the slide, engage the safety, and put it in the holster.

Tamara, I've got one of those around here somewhere. I believe that
it states..."Whenever engagement with the enemy is anticipated"...which
means that any soldier who is on the front line and within range of
the enemy, whether or not engagement is iminent.

I stand corrected...

[Ky Larry]

TonyB, you're correct. MyCZ-75B can be carried condition 1.