The Religion of the .45, 9mm is the Devil!


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SalchaketJoe
January 29, 2010, 08:01 AM
I grew up in a strictly .45ACP household. Time after time my father would expound upon the greatness and superiority of the .45 over the wimpy little 9mm. How men had been rolled over after taking say, a hit to the thumb with the old 45, and how others had absorbed multiple strikes from a 9mm only to eventually lay down and bleed out.

SO fast forward to now. I am in the market for a pistol. Have owned a few different .45s over the years. A 40 S&W. But now I want a pistol to do a lot of shooting/practice, and be the occasional carry piece. I am looking at the CZ75 Compact, Glock 19, S&W M&P 9mm and .45. I am on a budget, so the lower priced ammo of the 9mm is looking mighty tempting. But, I cant pull the trigger. Cant bring myself to get a 9mm. I want to come around. I remember the FBI Miami shootout, the US soldier in Iraq who stopped a point blank 9mm shot with his front tooth. The Countless accounts of battles where the 9mm failed. I think maybe just getting all this out will help convince me that at least for range time, the 9mm is the way to go. I can work on getting a nice .45 later, and then dad will be happy.

Now as I type this rant, I have a Ruger LCP on me. I know its a 9mm. But its not THE 9mm. And I carry this for its convienence and ability to conceal in just about anything.

I wonder, has anyone else had this irrational (maybe) phobia of the 9mm?

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Just One Shot
January 29, 2010, 09:21 AM
I believe that shot that was caught in the teeth was a richocet if it's the incident I remember.

I would suggest you get a 9mm in the same platform you intend to get the .45 in, that way you can build muscle memory that will transform to your carry weapon.

What ever your choice is then practice, practice and practice some more until it becomes second nature to present your firearm from concealment and be able to hit what you are shooting at.

Without getting into the caliber war again remember, shot placement is the key. A 9mm through the heart is better than a .45 through the arm.

EddieNFL
January 29, 2010, 09:41 AM
Sacrilege! I would disown you. :fire::cuss::evil:

m2steven
January 29, 2010, 09:44 AM
+P 9mm is very potent. MOST 9mm self defense ammunition is very potent. You are not under armed with a 9mm. Besides, It REALLY is fun to shoot, and 9mm is so much less expensive than 45acp. If you grew up shooting 357 mag you'd find 45 acp lacking. If you want a great bullet which is still pretty cheap from Wal-mart - go with 40 cal. It's big and hits hard.

But seriously, I have most handgun calibers, and the 9mm is my favorite and never feel undergunned when i'm carrying one of them.

earlthegoat2
January 29, 2010, 10:06 AM
Even though my first handgun was a 1911 and my second one was too, I lean towards the 9mm for protection and would feel comfortable with it as a LEO as well.

I really like the pistols the 9mm is chambered in mainly. HK P7, BHP, CZ 75 to name a few. I know each of these also comes in 40 but the gun has to be redesigned and the balance and handling are thrown off.

huntsman
January 29, 2010, 10:22 AM
I am on a budget, so the lower priced ammo of the 9mm is looking mighty tempting.

There’s you answer, you'll be better off shooting more than less regardless of the caliber.

Taurus 617 CCW
January 29, 2010, 10:30 AM
In my opinion the caliber is less important than shot placement. In the rules of gunfighting, shots count, misses don't.

xXxplosive
January 29, 2010, 10:38 AM
The 9mm may expand but the .45 will never shrink..........:neener:

ichiban
January 29, 2010, 10:45 AM
Given the quality of today's SD ammo it is hard to make the case that the 9mm is an underperformer. If you are stuck using ball ammo, it might be truer. It is like all things in life - there are trade-offs involved.

John Parker
January 29, 2010, 10:48 AM
I went from carrying a 1911 to an XD 45 compact. I love the .45ACP.

...and then, I bought a Glock 19. That gun just does it for me, I carry it every day, and I've never felt undergunned with it.

SalchaketJoe
January 29, 2010, 10:57 AM
I know there is nothing wrong with the 9mm. But, as I ranted, it sort of feels wrong, its like changing religions. I will likely be getting n M&P in 9mm. Then down the road, get a M&P in 45.

COgunner
January 29, 2010, 11:10 AM
It's kinda like going swimming in the cold - you need to just hold your breath and jump. Once you get one, you will likely start to appreciate it for what it is. I use 9mm mainly as a pocket gun (KT PF-9) when I don't want to carry my 1911. I don't feel too undergunned.

You'll really appreciate it when you get lucky and find some ball ammo on the shelf at Wal-Mart for $9.47.

John Parker
January 29, 2010, 11:12 AM
But, as I ranted, it sort of feels wrong, its like changing religions.

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean...but like COgunner said, once you do it, it feels great!

m2steven
January 29, 2010, 11:18 AM
Sometimes walmart has 9mm for 7.99 to 8.99 per box. That's when you know you've made a good move. Once - i found a box of 100 WWB 45 JHP at walmart for 20 bucks. That's a steal. Those went through my 1911 like epsom salts through a widow woman (or something like that). I like shooting all my pistols and revolvers if I get a great ammo deal.

Mike J
January 29, 2010, 11:31 AM
At least 9mm Luger has more juice than the 9mm Kurz you are carrying now.

berettaprofessor
January 29, 2010, 11:54 AM
Should ask Dad if he's willing to stand in front of the 9mm for a few shots.......

ArmedBear
January 29, 2010, 11:59 AM
Sometimes walmart has 9mm for 7.99 to 8.99 per box. That's when you know you've made a good move.

If your gun is a toy, then that's true.

If it's for self-defense, then there are other criteria for choosing a caliber. Sometimes 9mm makes the most sense. It's not going to hit as hard as a 230 grain .45, but "hardest hitting" isn't the only criterion that matters. Otherwise, the .50AE would be the only pistol round to get. Furthermore, I see no sense in a 180 grain .45 myself -- might as well get a 9mm and save the space and weight.

Personally, I prefer a .45 for SD, but only when weight and size don't matter. It's not a religion, either way. It's a choice.

Marlin 45 carbine
January 29, 2010, 12:04 PM
Ayoob says a concern with the 9mm is 'over-penetration'. IIRC he carrys a single-stack S&W 9mm loaded with h-p's.
I sure don't want to get hit with one after some crude testing in wet cardboard.

shenandoah
January 29, 2010, 12:07 PM
RE: Shot placement is all important be it 9 or .22 or .380. Using hi cap mags you'll be OK, just keep shooting until the threat is neutralized. One .45 in a limb or center of mass and it's over.

GRIZ22
January 29, 2010, 12:07 PM
I remember the FBI Miami shootout,

The FBI's performance in the Miami shootout was due to more to poor tactics than calibers. The agent who ended the fight used...what's this...a 38 special!

Buy a 9mm and get over it.

hillbillydelux
January 29, 2010, 12:15 PM
Speer Gold dot +p 9mm ammo advertises 1220 FPS with a 124 gn bullet. That seems about as good as anything else out there suitable for self defense.

geronimo509
January 29, 2010, 01:00 PM
If it is the cost of ammo that is making you stray from .45 then take that 500 dollars and invest in a reloader.

Otherwise, get over it and buy a 9mm with and ammo from a respected company. I second speer gold dots, but there are many choices.

RedLion
January 29, 2010, 01:06 PM
I remember the FBI Miami shootout, the US soldier in Iraq who stopped a point blank 9mm shot with his front tooth.

The FBI agents were also going up against two guys who were armed with a 12 gauge, and a mini 14. One of the agents lost his .357 magnum during fiasco, so his "one shot wonder" did him no good. So if you're thinking about apprehending two well armed, violent suspect, maybe bring a little more than a handgun, otherwise I can't imagine a few 9mm SD rounds won't do enough to stop someone

And a soldier may have survived the 9mm with his tooth, but one incident doesn't really mean much when you consider the amount of 9mm pistols and submachine guns present today and in history. Also the military uses pretty sub-par 9mm ammo compared to what you can buy as a civilian. Get good HP ammo and you will easily outperform any 9mm bullet the military can use.

ArmedBear
January 29, 2010, 01:16 PM
That seems about as good as anything else out there suitable for self defense.

HERE is a religious belief: "200 more FPS makes the bullet work just like one that weighs twice as much!"

Don't try to talk anyone out of their ft-lb. faith, though.

John Parker
January 29, 2010, 01:21 PM
One .45 in a limb or center of mass and it's over.

.....:scrutiny:......

kaiserspal47
January 29, 2010, 01:46 PM
Don't be afraid of the 9!LOL get a sig P229 in 9 then if you want a 45 you could go to P220. Same manual of arms. Same with Glock 19 9mm They make a 45 as well. Good weapons. You can also buy 1911s in 9 as well. We can get better ammo than is issued to the troops which performs better than 9mm ball does in the combat zone. Shot placement is critical in whatever caliber you use. cheap practice=more practice and better shooting.

joshuarwright
January 29, 2010, 02:10 PM
off topic kind of but if you are thinking of stopping power but your concern is price pick up one of the old Tokarev TTCs (TT-33). The gun itself is a steal at just about $220.

http://www.centerfiresystems.com/romaniantokarevtt-33pistolparttok-tt33.aspx

nothing beats that bulk ammo in tins of 1260 rounds for just $120.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/1260-rds-762x25-mm-tokarev-ammo.aspx?a=170601

Once I am of age to buy a pistol I know that is the one for me, at least for range time. This as a carry gun may be just a bit heavy XD though here in Illinois sadly that is not an option anyway.

ArmedBear
January 29, 2010, 02:12 PM
Hmmm... I wonder if a TT-33 would fit in a 1911 holster. It looks like it might.

joshuarwright
January 29, 2010, 02:15 PM
Our russian friends did admire Browning's contribution enough to basically steal the whole gun design haha though a 1903 holster would probably be perfect, I'm sure a 1911 would do the job just fine.

meef
January 29, 2010, 02:20 PM
Whoa!

Shades of deja vu!

I could swear I've seen this thread somewhere before.......


:cool:

Dr.Mall Ninja
January 29, 2010, 02:21 PM
What would your father think :evil: dont do it

lions
January 29, 2010, 02:34 PM
But dad, all the cool kids are doing it!:D

You'll be glad you did.

cornman
January 29, 2010, 02:36 PM
If the .45 was used as the NATO round today there would be countless stories of how it had failed. It is just the nature of people to report and spread the news of failures. We are talking about a bullet here, nothing more. Give me a .22 that I am confident with and I could care less if the bad guy has a .44 Mag. It is just childish to have strong oppinions on something so meaningless. BTW I hope you know that Ford is better than a Chevy! ;)

MikePGS
January 29, 2010, 02:39 PM
You say you remember the Miami Shootout? Then surely you recall that the round that finished it was the super potent... .38 special :) Arguing pistol calibers (above a certain range) is really just a matter of what each individual "thinks" is right. For the most part they will all do their job if the shooter does theirs.

EDIT:
And don't forget that the round that the FBI chose after the Miami Shootout wasn't the .45. It was the 10mm.

joshuarwright
January 29, 2010, 02:40 PM
Cornman makes a point... Ford is better.

but in all seriousness he did make the point of placement previously made, You can take down a person with well aimed .22 just as easily as someone could take you down with a knife if you missed with your big ol' .45

what matters is that you're armed so for price consideration I would say you have to go with the 9mm... Or 7.62x25 haha

Thaddeus Jones
January 29, 2010, 02:41 PM
Shot placement trumps all. TJ

Mikhail Weiss
January 29, 2010, 02:54 PM
But now I want a pistol to do a lot of shooting/practice, and be the occasional carry piece... I am on a budget, so the lower priced ammo of the 9mm is looking mighty tempting... But, I cant pull the trigger. Cant bring myself to get a 9mm.

Okay. Possible solution: Buy a gun in .40 caliber, get an aftermarket 9mm barrel, some 9mm magazines, shoot the cheaper 9mm stuff for range practice most of the time, then switch to the .40 caliber barrel and magazines for carry. (This is cheaper than buying two guns. Lone Wolf conversion barrels, for instance, run in the ballpark of $99 to $115.)

Another possible solution: read this link http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165386 and go buy a 9mm.


I wonder, has anyone else had this irrational (maybe) phobia of the 9mm?


Yes. But after looking at lots of reports, studies, data, autopsy photos, game animals, I reached my own conclusion.

camsdaddy
January 29, 2010, 03:10 PM
Lets see would you rather have a capable pistol that you cant afford to practice or would you rather have a capable pistol you can afford to practice and become proficent with. With the advancement in 9mm hp ammo I think you will be just fine. Also you can have faster follow up shots and probably more on tap (not saying spray and pray its just a fact you have more bullets). Our military is restricted to FMJ bullets due to our deal with the devil. As a civilian you are able take advantage of better equipment. I figure if Blackwater can use a 9mm Glock to protect after Katrina and our military uses it, my local PD has changed to it as well as a friend who has many high end pistols and could carry anything he carries a Glock 19 while his 45 HK's and 1911's sit at home. I like 45's but there is nothing wrong with 9mm.
Also you say that you have your LCP on you as you type. Does that mean your 45 is put away and you feel safe with a 380 but unsure of a 9mm in a service size pistol?

ArmedBear
January 29, 2010, 03:25 PM
Cornman makes a point... Ford is better.

Well, Ford is profiting from sales to consumers making free purchase decisions, whereas GM required government money to keep going.

Same with .45 ACP vs. 9mm.:D

And cornman, what makes you think the .45ACP isn't in use today?

WRT stories of failure, it's true, those are not indicative of much. However, ballistics are real. They're not make-believe.

I don't think the 9mm is "the devil", or that it doesn't work at all. I do, however, think an equivalent bullet in .45 hits harder and stops attacks more often, statistically, than a 9mm. Numbers don't lie. The 9mm does fit in a much smaller gun, and/or allows greater capacity. Those are good things. You pays your money, and you takes your chances.

SlamFire1
January 29, 2010, 03:38 PM
The legendary stopping power of the 45 is Orthodoxy. Blasphemers beware: if you poke a fork in a sacred cow, expect to be gored :evil:

I have always believed that bigger is better. However when you throw into the equation expanding bullets, the advantage is not so clear cut.

If I was only restricted to FMJ, I would want the better bigger bullet.

I recall reading “Tales from the Morgue” on the S&W forum. The Atlanta County coroner's gave his opinions based on what he saw on the slab. One point that I recall was that lighter bullets were more often deflected by ribs, bones, than bigger heavier bullets. Of course everyone on the table was dead, but it did give you the idea that if your aim is correct, the bigger bullet will plow its way to the target.

He was positive about the effectiveness of the 357.

I would prefer a 40 caliber to a 9mm, but I would not feel helpless with a 9mm.

Heck I feel safe with an Airweight J frame in 38 Special.

Our military is restricted to FMJ bullets due to our deal with the devil. As a civilian you are able take advantage of better equipment.

Insurgents and guerrillas apparently don’t count. A bud of mine has been to deployed to CONUS Military Bases to rebuild Army weapons. He informed me that US troops in Iraq were being issued +P (maybe +P+) Federal Hydroshocks. These were used in M92 pistols to improve the stopping characteristics of the round. Apparently the unit’s pistols were all beat up, he thinks it was due to the higher pressure round.

ArmedBear
January 29, 2010, 03:44 PM
I have always believed that bigger is better. However when you throw into the equation expanding bullets, the advantage is not so clear cut.


A 230 grain expanding bullet will still work better than a 115 grain expanding bullet. The advantage is clear-cut. The NEED for the advantage may not be.

Like I said, I don't think 9mm is useless, just that .45 hits harder while still being comfortable to shoot, at least for me.

Heck I feel safe with an Airweight J frame in 38 Special.

Me, too.

Lonestar49
January 29, 2010, 03:52 PM
...

Fear not, as the only fear is your ability to put lead "on target.."

Having all 3 calibers mentioned, 45, 40, and 9mm, each has a "purpose" for which it is intended to serve.

Like others have mentioned, I agree with bigger is better (width and weight of JHP's) and in 45 JHP, 230gr is my choice. In 40cal JHP 180gr is my choice and in 9mm, depending on which gun: 3" EMP, 124gr JHP is my choice and in, and with, my Sig P229/9mm, 147gr JHP is choice..

Knowing "each weapon" along with what (ammo) size/weight/velocity, JHP's, that each "works" best for you, the shooter, with what particular weapon, of choice, for the day, or occasion, is all one needs to demonstrate (thru practice).

The bottom line will always be "in the shooters hand/aim".. and SA


Ls

camsdaddy
January 29, 2010, 03:53 PM
I think our +P+ should be standard issue. I find it silly (sad) we send our men in women into battle yet restrict them to substandard equipment. Give them hollowpoint expanding ammo or whatverWe need to untie our hands and fight a war take the gloves off per say. I mean Geneva or who or whatever should tell us about fighting fair. Let them do what they need to do with whatever it takes. Sorry off topic

ArmedBear
January 29, 2010, 03:58 PM
camsdaddy, I'm with you. It seems ironic that it's okay to blow the living crap out of the enemy with shoulder-fired guided anti-tank missiles, smash their faces in with rifle butts after jamming bayonets into them, and spray them with machine-gun fire, but it's not okay for our troops to have the most effective handguns for last-ditch defense -- which is, BTW, the situation where the enemy could actually surrender if they wanted to.

Boats
January 29, 2010, 06:17 PM
I must be an agnostic. I rely upon 147 grain 9mm JHPs at home for the nightstand pistol and 230 grain .45ACP on the street and I am equally comfortable with either.

Home: 20+1 147 grain Gold Dot JHPs.

http://i30.tinypic.com/2u77osi.jpg

Away: 8+1 230 grain Golden Saber JHPs.

http://www.little-link.com/pics/72dcf795d0d407fd0ca8be6462acf3db.jpg

For me, it's about math. On the street, multiple assailants who stick around for a gun fight are pretty rare, so double tapping one or two crooks should send the rest running for their lives. Plus the spare mags are easier to conceal than are double stacks.

At home, an invasion robbery is dynamic and means a more determined criminal set is at work to discount or ignore the possibility of getting killed breaking into an inhabited dwelling.

With the 1911, four double taps means I am down to my last round on the way to the shotgun. With the Beretta, four double taps means the barrel is just warming up. Since I don't carry a spare mag in my jammies, the capacity bonus trumps the theoretical fall-off in terminal performance.

I must admit I have toyed with getting a FNH FNP-45 USG so as to have 15+1 of .45ACP on tap, but the weapon is enormous compared even to the service sized Beretta PX-4, and the grip a little too blocky for me.

MICHAEL T
January 29, 2010, 08:15 PM
One .45 in a limb or center of mass and it's over.

Another spreader of that old myth I have carried a 45 nearly 40 yrs and like the 9mm 380 or little 22 It shot placement . Shoot till threat is over. It may take several .
230 ball or HP its still has to be put in the right place not just a hit and its over

DeepSouth
January 29, 2010, 08:30 PM
I once shot a wild hog 150 yards away with a 45 and when it exited him it went through a medium sized red oak tree which made it ricochet slightly to the left at which point it hit a Elk in the tail and killed him grave yard dead.

I like to catch 9mm rounds with my baseball mitt just to impress people.


Seriously, Your Father is a wise man, but a 9mm is fine....................for plinking.:D

I personally don't/wouldn't use one for defense, but I wouldn't use a 380 either.

Strahley
January 29, 2010, 08:56 PM
The ONLY time I would feel undergunned with a 9mm instead of a .45 is if I were FORCED to use FMJ only. Modern JHP 9mm will get the job done, so long as you get your job done

That FBI shootout, imo, is a pretty null argument. If you are outgunned because you brought a pistol to a long gun fight, you don't respond by trying to make a stronger pistol. You respond with long guns of your own

As for .45 ACP being some magic one shot wonder, I don't buy that either. In fact, seeing how much humans have been known to withstand, I wouldn't trust ANYTHING to provide a magic one shot stop. Always stay on target until the threat is neutralized

People put way too much thought into pistol caliber selection. In the grand scheme of things, it just doesn't really matter

RP88
January 29, 2010, 09:00 PM
All I can say is: if you feel undergunned with a high-cap 9mm, then you must have picked a fight with more than one gunman or a guy with a rifle or shotgun.

Short of anything with .357 ballistics, you aren't gonna find that mythical manstopper that people think .45ACP is.

verdun59
January 29, 2010, 09:12 PM
Geez, I think I saw the answer in the second paragraph. Get a CZ PCR (or a 75B) stoke it with 9mm ammo and live happily thereafter.

The Lone Haranguer
January 29, 2010, 09:27 PM
I liked .45 much better when a box of practice ammo was a ten-spot. ;)

Confederate
January 30, 2010, 07:34 PM
It's not the caliber...I'd be more concerned with buying a suitable gun. A Glock just doesn't do anything for me, but the second and third generation S&Ws really appeal to me, especially the 659 and 5906. The Beretta 9mm also appeals to me. But it's all a personal choice. What I'm saying is that the gun is more important, in this case, than the caliber -- and the 9mm does pack a good punch with hot hollowpoint bullets.

I have fired Glocks and I have a S&W .45 (can't recall the model), and both have square, boxy slides that turn me off. I also had a friend who shot a Moro in the chest point blank with a .45 (during the war) and he had to hit the guy over the head to put him down. He said he'd never had faith in the .45 after that. Then, in Korea, they found that the Chinese were clothed so heavily that after they were killed by machine gun fire, that .45 bullets had lodged in many of their vests. So horror stories abound in both calibers. Going to JHPs really helps the 9mm, but not so much the .45 auto. Another factor--soldiers are limited to ball ammo, but you aren't.

Pick a nice 9mm you like and then find some good 115gr JHPs. And if you need more of a manstopper than that, get a good .357 magnum revolver!

Budgetshooter
January 30, 2010, 07:58 PM
Fact is, if you make a one shot drop with a 45 you can hit them in the same spot with the 9 and it will still drop them. If there's an indian charging at you on a horse, the 45 would be better for shooting the horse in the shoulder.

kgpcr
January 30, 2010, 08:06 PM
A 9mm is a good round if you cant handle a .40 or .45.

Hardballing
January 30, 2010, 08:51 PM
A 9mm is a good round.
There.

Fixed it for ya. :)

m2steven
January 30, 2010, 09:19 PM
Armedbear: If I could get 50AE for 7.99 per box of 50, I'd probably like that. But if you don't reload or don't have the cash for super large expensive ammo to practice with, the 9mm or 40sw is pretty nice. Buy a box of really good ammo to carry, and as much cheap crap you can find to take to the range. I really don't think you should carry the notion that the 9mm is a "toy". A pellet pistol is not a toy. Tell your glass eye it was a toy. Or your dentures.

MikePGS
January 30, 2010, 09:38 PM
A 9mm is a good round if you cant handle a .40 or .45.
And both .40 and .45's are good rounds if you can't handle a 10mm, .357 mag, .41 mag, etc. etc.:rolleyes:

Quiet
January 30, 2010, 10:11 PM
The Religion of the .45, 9mm is the Devil!
What does that make the .45GAP? :evil:

Confederate
January 30, 2010, 10:44 PM
The .45 certainly isn't a skimpy round, but it's limited in a number of ways. Some people like the 230 gr ball ammo, but I'm convinced the 185 JHP is the way to go. I loved going out in the middle of nowhere and shooting at clay pigeons 100 yards out with my .357 Security-Six. Even with a 2.75-inch barrel, I could make life extremely uncomfortable to a mansize target at that range. One woman who had never shot before was kicking up dirt all around the clay target and would shatter it quite often. The .45 has the trajectory of a bowling ball. The 9mm runs much flatter and penetrates well. Many guns also let you shoot many more rounds than the .45.

On forums like this, we tend to sometimes become preoccupied with the downside of a particular gun or round. But reading as many news reports as I have about people successfully defending themselves with guns, I have yet to read one where either the 9mm or .45 was inadequate. Indeed, it's amazing the number of people who have successfully used the lowly .25 ACP or .22LR to drive away or kill their assailants.

In most cases, people don't actually have to fire their guns at all. One former burglar who went into the home security market told his story of his last break in. He said he was stuffing items into a black plastic bag in a home he thought was empty when he said he heard the scariest sound he had ever heard during a break-in -- that of a slide being released. He didn't know what type of gun it was or the caliber, but he knew what it was the instant he heard it. He was so frightened that he left the bag and fled. "If I had wanted to meet people," he joked, "I would have been a mugger." The point is, he wanted no part of being on the wrong end of any firearm.

This isn't to say that caliber is unimportant, but a 9mm hollowpoint isn't anything to be taken lightly. I will say that based on what I've read and heard, the .40 hasn't lived up to expectations. It was supposed to outclass both the .45 and 9mm, but in the end just didn't quite make it. Not that it didn't get a following...it's just that it failed to reach that "perfect storm" kind of a thing that the .357 125gr JHP did. One federal agent complained to me that a single shot to the chest failed to stop a 40-year old woman who was threatening agents down South somewhere. And there were other incidents where it didn't work out too well.

The 9mm has seen some vast improvements over the last few years and is a popular round. My 659 S&W is a great gun, especially with a 20-round clip. Who needs sights with that many rounds? Just close your eyes and keep shooting!

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh198/jriler/SW659_20rounder.jpg

armoredman
January 30, 2010, 10:55 PM
Want ultimate stopping power in a concealable handgun? Get a Serbu Shorty and stoke it with 3 inch magnum slugs. Anything less is underpowered and unfit for man nor beast, only weak suckling babes. :)
Sarcasm aside, I trust my 9mm, with Golden Sabres inside, no worries. I agree, get a CZ75, a PCR would be a great choice, and have fun.

Rexster
January 31, 2010, 08:27 AM
I could be comfortable carrying either the 9mm or .45 ACP into harm's way, and have done so, by choice. The choice is now made for me, .40 S&W, and I am OK with that, too. The realistic terminal performance of all the duty-type cartridges is quite close. IMHO, the .357 mag is a step up, but at the expense of much more abuse at the back end, to the shooter. (I say this as someone who does still use .357 mag at times, and has BT&DT with the .357.)

The .380, on the other hand, is far down the food chain from the 9x19mm. Shot placement IS important, regardless, but a .380 does not cause as much damage as I would prefer to inflict upon a human adversary under a wide range of conditions.

Don't get me wrong; when I am too feeble to handle the more powerful cartridges, if all I can handle is a .380, then so be it. It will be a large .380, so that its handling qualities and higher-profile sights will allow pinpoint accuracy; Berettas, Brownings, SIG P232s, and my wife's superb Walther PP come to mind. I have a .32 ACP Seecamp pistol now, though it is a niche gun, not an everyday carry piece, nor even an everyday backup gun.

Shear_stress
January 31, 2010, 01:42 PM
Debates like this go on as nauseum precisely because there is little evidence of a clear cut, unequivocal, real world difference in "performance" between the .45 and 9mm. Any evidence that is there is completely obscured by the huge number of variables involved in every shooting. But even this is overshadowed by the overwhelmingly subjective yet totally rigid opinions people have the luxury of having in the absence of real proof.

RonBernert
February 2, 2010, 03:33 PM
"RE: Shot placement is all important be it 9 or .22 or .380. Using hi cap mags you'll be OK, just keep shooting until the threat is neutralized. One .45 in a limb or center of mass and it's over."

Actually not true at all. a .45 is not the magic round everyone thinks it is... Of course, I am opening myself up to argument here, but here goes...

I was involved in a justifiable homicide, and the perp was shot seven (7) times and was still moving, all of the shots were fired out of a ParaOrdinance P-14/45. All were 230GR ball ammo, all stayed in the body. First 3 shots he was in the "back room" of the store, next 3 shots happened while he was running towards a co-worker and myself. Last shot actually hit him in the back while he was trying to shoot over the shoulder. Six of the seven shots were center mass, seventh shot caught him in the right shoulder. He DID NOT "spin like a top" and it DID NOT knock him down.

He lived for a while after that, breathing through his back with me standing on his shoulders. End of the story is that he did lose the battle, but during the entire event, he did not go down, and everything I ever heard about the 45 caliber being a "magic" round (and most people are taught that) was wrong. He had just as much opportunity to shoot me while he had 6 bullets in him and running towards me as none at all.

I carry a few other calibers for CCW now, from .32, 9mmMAK, 9mm Para and .38. I leave the .45 at home. Not because I don't believe in the .45, but because a good shot with a 9mm is just as good, if not better.

03Shadowbob
February 2, 2010, 06:28 PM
My grandfather always told me that a 45 is for protection and a 22 is for practice. For cheap practice I use my 22/45 and for SD I use my 1911s. .22 is much cheaper than 9mm.

Andrew Wyatt
February 2, 2010, 07:23 PM
Who past the age of fifteen actually cares?

w_houle
February 2, 2010, 08:41 PM
IT must be true... I read it on the internet!
Some guy was shot with a .45 in the pinkie and it blew the top of his head off!
Then another guy had emptied his 9mm into some crazed mad and that guy got so pissed off from being shot with a 9mm that he ripped off his own arm and started beating him with his arm. The only reason the attacker died was because he ripped his own arm off...:rolleyes:

SalchaketJoe
February 2, 2010, 08:54 PM
I did not intend this to be a 45 vs 9mm debate, more questioning those that had been "washed in the blood" so to speak of .45 lore and then began to look towards that 9mm. I plan on getting both, starting with that M&P 9mm then later getting a nice 1911, probably a Colt Commander.

NMGonzo
February 3, 2010, 10:39 PM
I have a .380 for the missus and a .45 for me.

now ... I have to convince her that shooting the gov't model muzzle flips just the same and we are good to go.

HammerheadSSN663
February 3, 2010, 10:59 PM
I still say a good sized rock strategically placed with good speed will put a man down.

Anything over that is a bonus.

chopper180
February 4, 2010, 12:41 AM
OK, I'm not going to jump in the 9mm vs. debate, but I will share with you why I carry a 9mm most of the time:

1. I shoot the 9mm well. I've shot everything from a .22 to a 454 Cassul and I tend to shoot the 9mm the best. I can certainly shoot other calibers well, but I've found that the 9mm is easier for me to shoot well consistently.

2. 9mm ammo is cheap. This means I can practice more than I could with other more expensive calibers. (maybe this is why I shoot best with a 9mm?) In theory world, where some people live, this wouldn't be an issue. In my world (consisting of a wife, kids, and mortgage) it does matter

3. Typically the 9mm is going to give you more rounds than a .40 or .45. I know that there are those that will argue that "you shouldn't need more than xx rounds" and "I don't spray and pray". Personally, I've never been in a gunfight and therefore don't know how I would react, how it would affect my shooting ability. No amount of paper target shooting will prepare you for a real-world situation. Even in the best of simulations, you won't react the same way when it's for real. I can blow the heck out of paper targets, but that's a far cry from returning fire in an attempt to defend my life or the lives of others. I'd rather have 30-35 rounds than 14-25

4. I've yet to find anyone willing to act as a backstop for me and my "wimpy" 9mm. No matter how much someone may purport to "know" that some caliber is far superior to my little 9, they just won't hold the target for me.

Don't get me wrong, I pretty much like everything when it comes to shooting; pistols, rifles, bows, etc., in just about any configuration. My only caution is buying into the myth that there's some "wundergun" or "wunderbullit" out that will cause instant death just from sheer intimidation. If it was that simple, there would only be one caliber.

tiger rag
February 4, 2010, 01:52 AM
both are very effective defense calibers ,carry what you are confident in .
I do not want to be a backstop for a bb gun ,but since this is a somewhat "religious topic" as I recall the 9mm could not put the Pope down. Just kiddin .

chopper180
February 4, 2010, 02:10 AM
:D ^

PhiloebeddoUSA
February 4, 2010, 01:41 PM
Salkachet Joe
I know you brought this up elsewhere, but it case you didn't read it, the CZ compact which you mentioned is a bit porky and heavy. I carry this model, but would not consider it a pocket size. 3.9 in. barrel.

Your thoughts on a single stack .45 (new agent type 3.5 bbl.) sound right on the money. Another possiblity would be a PPK type chambered in .380 or MAK.

Best of luck. Enjoyed reading all the posts.

fireside44
February 4, 2010, 02:44 PM
2. 9mm ammo is cheap. This means I can practice more than I could with other more expensive calibers. (maybe this is why I shoot best with a 9mm?) In theory world, where some people live, this wouldn't be an issue. In my world (consisting of a wife, kids, and mortgage) it does matter

This.^

I prefer shooting .45's myself, actually, I prefer shooting .45LC a lot more, but you simply can't beat the cost effectiveness of 9mm ammo. If you reload it is almost as cost effective as .22lr.

Each time I make a trip to the range I come back with hundreds of free 9mm brass but far fewer .45acp stuff. A $100 dollar investment in wheel weights will net you 13 or 14k 9mm projectiles with a little bit of work. Dollar for dollar, 9mm can't be beaten.

smoothdraw
February 5, 2010, 01:56 PM
what's wrong with 45ACP? If you find it expensive ... we are really in a expensive sport. If you want to save and enjoy to shoot the slow subsonic big bore slug then reload. Reload is as fun (at least for others) as shooting.

I subscribe to the idea of shooting using the designed ammo for the gun. For me it means 45acp for my 1911's and 9mm for my Glocks. I use 45ACP for defense/carry and training/tournaments while 9mm Glocks for tournaments only. Can you use 9mm for defense oh yeah! But 45ACP is slower, is bigger, will have correct penetration because it will expand more, and will be less loud because it is subsonic. It's a personal choice. Remember also that a hot supersonic 9mm tends to be louder, more recoil, put more stress in your weapon, and tends to overpenetrate (although there are some scenarios that you might want overpenetration to happen). There are too many compromises in 9mm i should say. And special loads of 9mm are expensive too and say vs a FMJ 230gr 45ACP performance/price which is better? So i only use 9mm to shoot papers.

At least at my range, I still get a lot of 45ACP brass. Sometimes more than 9mm. And I agree to save when finances are thin, then maybe select your practice and don't just simply go to shooting range and dump leads downrange. Shoot IDPA or USPSA for example. A weekly indoor match is average only 50 rounds. And maybe sell some of your collection that are just collecting dust. And retain only the weapon that you use for defense, for training and for practice. Maybe just shoot once a month in your outdoor IDPA or IPSC match.

Philo_Beddoe
February 5, 2010, 05:18 PM
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

Triggernosis
February 5, 2010, 05:43 PM
The .357 Sig is quite impressive in that picture, isn't it?

JSmith
February 6, 2010, 07:33 PM
" But now I want a pistol to do a lot of shooting/practice, and be the occasional carry piece."

If you want cheap pactice, get a .22. But carry a .45.

NMGonzo
February 6, 2010, 10:40 PM
If you want to get proficient with "n" caliber on "h" weapon ... guess what!

BlayGlock
February 8, 2010, 11:03 AM
I wonder, has anyone else had this irrational (maybe) phobia of the 9mm

There is no "maybe" to it. With modern defensive rounds it is an irrational phobia.

When I am really worried about power (like when I am hunting) I carry a 10mm. Otherwise, its the 9mm for me. And it has nothing to do with shooting ability. I can shoot a .45 just as well. I have several .45 handguns and I shoot them as well.

GojuBrian
February 9, 2010, 05:54 AM
9mm defensive ammunition is plenty for its intended purposes, plenty!

Marlin 45 carbine
February 9, 2010, 07:34 AM
seems the Germans, Russkis and others in Europe have sure gotten good at killing each other off with it if it ain't!

Maj.Striker
February 9, 2010, 09:35 AM
If you want cheap pactice, get a .22. But carry a .45.

You're honestly advising him to practice with something other than his carry piece? Yeah, that's smart...

03Shadowbob
February 9, 2010, 07:25 PM
You can practice many things with a 22 that will pay dividends. You still want to practice with what you are going to carry but you can practice many things on a 22 that will help you out at a fraction of the cost.

Jim PHL
February 10, 2010, 12:30 PM
I carried a lightweight .45 that I was really only running a couple of mags through whenever I went to the range. I love shooting my 5" all-steel 1911 in .45, but I don't carry it.

I started carrying my 9mm's because I was shooting them all the time on the range. I have several of a similar size and style and these are the ones I am shooting the most, having the most fun with and getting the most familiar and the most accurate with...so why not carry them?

When I wrestled with the change from .45 to 9mm, I kept reminding myself how often I "settle" for a j-frame .38. When I think about that, I don't feel so "undergunned" with 8+1 of 9mm +P from a 3.5" barrel.

youngda9
February 10, 2010, 02:17 PM
Still trying to please your father after all these years...time for a new therapist :)

vaupet
February 11, 2010, 05:27 AM
9 mm is plenty and has been plenty over here in Europe.

But buying a gun is much more then price. You should try diffferent guns in different ammo types for the one wich suits you best.
fit to the hand, trigger feeling, recoil,..

Then you should go for a system.
for instance, if the SIG suits you, you can start of with the Mosquito .22 LR (mind to buy high speed ammo though), to practice very cheap.

for me, I like the HK USP most, because I have VERY large hands and I like the mild recoil. SIG are OK, don't like Glock (small controls), High Power or Beretta but that just the individual fit for me.

Greetz

Peter

SalchaketJoe
February 11, 2010, 08:13 AM
I had a $100 gift card from Bass Pro shops. Just ordered a few hundred rounds of 9mm for the CZ 75 Compact I plan on gettin in the coming weeks.......

Going to have to break the news to dad....

smoothdraw
February 12, 2010, 10:00 PM
You're honestly advising him to practice with something other than his carry piece? Yeah, that's smart...
I believe when you use 45acp for defense and a 1911 for example then use something else for practice a 9mm/22lr and non 1911 pistol, you setting up yourself for failure. I've learned this from reading a lot of Ayoobs teachings and Magpuls dynamic's Tactical Handgun. So for me i practice and shoot matches using my carry weapon and home defense weapon so that if i need to use it in real defense then my muscle memory with those weapons are geared up.

So if you are going to practice and shoot 9mm in your glock or 1911, why not use it also for your defense? 9mm at correct shot placement is lethal as well. 45ACP... well that big bore is all business!

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