What Type of Crimp


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KAC1911
January 29, 2010, 11:24 AM
You guys that are reloading 223/5.56 do you prefer a roll crimp die or a factory crimp die?

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243winxb
January 29, 2010, 11:55 AM
No crimp for me. I feel you might have less problems with the Lee factory crimp as case length is not as important. Bullet pull for military loaded ammo is 35 to 45 lbs. You can get this lbs when the die set is working correctly without a crimp. The crimp May give you some water proofing.

ole farmerbuck
January 29, 2010, 11:57 AM
No crimp for me either. I have enough neck tension now.

OHtard
January 29, 2010, 12:10 PM
no crimp. i just started reloading rifle, and asked the same question of the guy that taught me. he said no need. my first batch of reloads shot a 5 shot group of .751 in my busmaster varmit rig, so i tend to trust him.

Walkalong
January 29, 2010, 12:40 PM
No crimp for accuracy loads.

A nice roll or taper crimp for SHTF/plinking/blasting ammo.

A taper crimp is easier to set up than a roll crimp. The case length is less critical, as well as the consistency of the cannelure on the bullet not being as critical. Many cheap bullets with a cannelure are inconsistent with its placement.

flashhole
January 29, 2010, 06:02 PM
I generally don't crimp but when I do I use a Redding Taper Crimp Die.

KAC1911
January 30, 2010, 09:46 AM
Thanks guys. I see the roll or taper probably puts less stress on the neck as small as it is. Got to find out which type of type lee dies I bought so many years ago.

rcmodel
January 30, 2010, 02:04 PM
If you insist on crimping, this is one of the few applications where the Lee FCD die is the only way to fly.

It is a collet die, which is operated by the shell holder shoving on it.
That makes it totally independent on exact case length, so it becomes impossible to collapse a shoulder if you get a long case in the mix.

The .223 in an AR is the most overly sensitive caliber there is to crimp with a seating die crimper.

A tiny amount of shoulder collapse, too small to see with the naked eye, will lock up an AR-15 tighter then a gnats azz.
And it is far to easy to do with a normal crimping die that is case length critical.

If you feel you just have to crimp, get a Lee FCD collet crimping die.

rc

Walkalong
January 30, 2010, 02:28 PM
A tiny amount of shoulder collapse, too small to see with the naked eye, will lock up an AR-15 tighter then a gnats azz.
And it is far to easy to do with a normal crimping die that is case length critical.
So true.

Cases must be trimmed the same and much care has to be taken setting up the dies. I quit roll crimping .223 because the cannelures on so many cheap bulk bullets were very shallow and contributed to the problem, making it even more difficult.

I taper crimp in a second step after seating now for rounds I crimp, while still trimming cases to be consistent.

The Lee rifle FCD would certainly eliminate these problems.

FROGO207
January 31, 2010, 12:08 AM
I use the Lee FCD and like it for my plinking ammo. You don't have to worry about collapsing the casing as stated previously and that means more reliable feeding. A plus in my book for sure.

ole farmerbuck
January 31, 2010, 07:58 AM
Lastnight i loaded 116 for my AR and used the fcd on the last 16. I'll check them today.

shootinxd
January 31, 2010, 10:00 AM
The lee FCD works best when cases are trimmed to length,works for me.:D

EddieNFL
January 31, 2010, 10:40 AM
Neck tension. Measured quite a few rounds chambered in different ARs; no setback. I do use a moderate roll crimp on cannelured bullets loaded for M4s.

KAC1911
February 1, 2010, 10:29 AM
Thanks again, I need to find out what set of Lee dies I do have.

KAC1911
February 11, 2010, 11:25 AM
Well according to Lee the dies I have are their collet die set #90707. It appears this only neck sizes and I read this should not be used in a autoloader. Lee has a pacesetter set(3 die set) #90502 which gives you a choice of two dies, and using the type of crimp you want. Any of you guys fimaliar or using this set and would this be prefered for reloading for an AR?

Walkalong
February 11, 2010, 11:35 AM
The Lee collet sizer does a good job if you want to neck size only, but I full length size for AR's. Plenty of AR accuracy buffs here to answer how they do for competition, but for general shooting, I would suggest FL sizing.

Any die set with a FL sizer will work. The 90502 die set (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=434975) you mentioned will work just fine.

Here are a couple of crimp pics (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=6258612#post6258612).

KAC1911
February 11, 2010, 11:49 AM
Thanks Walkalong. Does that Factory Crimp put more stress on neck mouth? From the pictures I looked at it looks like a serious crimp.

Sidewinder72
February 11, 2010, 11:57 AM
I don't crimp either. Enough neck tension already.

KAC1911
February 11, 2010, 12:02 PM
Sidewinder, do you just adjust your bullet seating die for a snug fit?

ole farmerbuck
February 11, 2010, 02:06 PM
I think by polishing the expander ball down .001 or .002 will get you enough neck tension. I should say, thats what i did.

geigersd
February 11, 2010, 02:32 PM
Well according to Lee the dies I have are their collet die set #90707. It appears this only neck sizes and I read this should not be used in a autoloader. Lee has a pacesetter set(3 die set) #90502 which gives you a choice of two dies, and using the type of crimp you want. Any of you guys fimaliar or using this set and would this be prefered for reloading for an AR?

The Lee Pacesetter dies set includes: Decapping and sizing die(full size and neck opening), bullet seating die, FCD crimping die. You only get one choice of crimp, the taper crimp, because you only get one crimping die.

I am a total noob at reloading, and I've had no problems using this die set to learn to reload .223.

You should always crimp for an autoloader and this set will suffice.

rcmodel
February 11, 2010, 02:38 PM
You should always crimp for an autoloader and this set will suffice.Who says?

You have a bunch of guys on here with probably a combined total of well over 200 years of experiance reloading for AR-15's telling you it isn't necessary to crimp.

I'll say it again.
It isn't necessary to crimp if you have proper neck tension, and an AR-15 & magazines that feed correctly.

rc

geigersd
February 11, 2010, 02:47 PM
Who says?

You have a bunch of guys on here with probably a combined total of well over 200 years of experiance reloading for AR-15's telling you it isn't necessary to crimp.

I'll say it again.
It isn't necessary to crimp if you have proper neck tension, and an AR-15 & magazines that feed correctly.

rc

I should have specified: I reload for a Mini-14. I should always crimp. :o

rcmodel
February 11, 2010, 02:54 PM
Well, I haven't crimped for my Mini-14 since I bought it in 1970 something either.

Proper neck tension will require 40-50+ pounds of force to move a bullet in a case.

That amount of impact from a poor feeding rifle or magazine will bend a bullet nose sideways before it slips.

rc

geigersd
February 11, 2010, 03:01 PM
rcmodel- That's interesting. As I stated, I am new to reloading, and this is the info I have been given on various forums including this one. Where can I learn more about neck tension and how to achieve proper settings? Do you load bullets with or without cannelures?

Walkalong
February 11, 2010, 03:23 PM
Does that Factory Crimp put more stress on neck mouth? From the pictures I looked at it looks like a serious crimp. It can be adjusted from light to heavy. I prefer a taper crimp over it, but then a consistent case length will be more critical. I trim em every time for .223, despite the fact that you can get away with doing it every second or third firing. I don't keep track any more, so I just trim every time. I DO check cases for signs of impending case head separation. If numerous cases in a lot start showing the tell tale signs, I scrap the lot.

Proper neck tension will require 40-50+ pounds of force to move a bullet in a case.

That amount of impact from a poor feeding rifle or magazine will bend a bullet nose sideways before it slips.

Agreed, but I still like to crimp my blasting/plinking/SHTF ammo. :)

That said, and I know you agree with this, NO amount of crimp will make up for poor neck tension...Period.

KAC1911
February 11, 2010, 03:28 PM
Thanks for all the input.

Do you use stripper on the mini to load ammo?

rcmodel
February 11, 2010, 03:31 PM
No.

Takes longer to put reloads in stripper-clips then it does to just load the magazines with loose ammo in the first place.

rc

KAC1911
February 11, 2010, 03:42 PM
Thanks.
How are you guys adding quotes to help your answers?

Walkalong
February 11, 2010, 06:01 PM
Quote button/icon at the top of the window where you are typing your reply. Copy and paste what you want to quote, highlight it, click the quote icon.

Or by typing, bracket the words you want to quote with [/quote.], but leave out the dots. I had to put them in for the rest to show, or it looks like [QUOTE] a quote

shootinxd
February 12, 2010, 08:30 AM
To CRIMP OR NOT TO CRIMP?Has this not been discussed before?:neener:

ole farmerbuck
February 12, 2010, 08:59 AM
As bad as i hate to admit this, crimping with the Lee fcd does help accuracy with my AR. I think i will polish down the expander some more and see what happens. I have plenty in case i ruin it. There, i said it.

KAC1911
February 12, 2010, 01:04 PM
You guys have added a lot of insight on this for me. Again I'm just getting back into this again and want to learn and be carefull. I appreciate all the tips and advice. After rereading my Lyman handbook this makes sense.

So if I have this part correct for you guys that don't use a crimp, you just setup your bullet seating die to apply enough pressure to securely hold bullet in the case, correct?

Walkalong
February 12, 2010, 01:08 PM
The sizer and expander ball determines neck tension. If the expander is opening up the sized neck too much, you can turn/polish it down to get a bit more neck tension. If the neck part of the sizer is too big, another die is the answer. Of course, with the bushing type neck dies, you control neck tension with the bushing size.

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