Is the M1 Carbine a swell home defense gun?


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Justin
November 16, 2003, 03:15 PM
Ok, here's a question- Is the M1 Carbine a good choice for home defense?
You see all sorts of arguments about how the .30 Carbine round is ineffective at long distances, and really isn't much of a penetrator. This may not be the ideal setup if you're storming the beaches of Normandy, but what about inside your own home at 0-dark-thirty? Seems to me that the M1 Carbine would have quite a bit going for it in this regard:

1)It's a longarm which makes it easier to handle than a pistol.
2)The round isn't a full-blown rifle round, which means it's less likely to go through three walls and into the neighbors' place.
3)Higher capacity than a shotgun- 15 and 30 round magazines are readily available.
4)Low recoil adds to ease of controllability, especially for those who might balk at shooting a 12 guage.
5)It's fairly light, which makes it quite handy.

The biggest mark against the M1 Carbine for a HD weapon is that there doesn't seem to be any provision for attaching a light.

So whaddya think?

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Kaylee
November 16, 2003, 03:21 PM
sounds about right to me.. one of these days I may have to buy one. :D

The other neat thing about 'em is that they seem -- at least through muffs-- significantly easier on the ears than a .223. Now granted I still wouldn't want to touch one off inside, but I suspect there'd be less long term hearing damage than from an M4 knockoff or suchlike.

and of COURSE you can attatch a light.. never heard of duct tape?:p

-K

willyjixx
November 16, 2003, 03:24 PM
kaylee beat me too it!:D

duct tape!

a dremel an some time can make a neat little groove


who was it that said necessity was the mother of invention?

ChairborneRanger
November 16, 2003, 04:02 PM
The M1 Carbine is the original fun gun----light----cute to look at----just a ball to shoot----great plinking gun!! The manufacturing 'story' relative to the Carbine is captivating, as well. However, the majority of the USGI Carbines are also 60 years old----and counting----great Curio & Relic class firearm----but I don't know if I'd want to stake my life on it. The Carbine is plainly not a good platform when it comes to either optics or lights. Furthermore, the .30 Carbine round is not exactly the most sophisticated----kind of like a .22 on steroids-----yet, to the extent that one tries using either HP or SP cartridges in the Carbine, the gun is notorious for developing feeding problems.

When it comes to home defense, I'd be prone to use something just a little more modern---in a rifle, something like an AR in .223/5.56 would seem to do the 'trick'----better yet, a shotgun----a 12 or 20 in a double, pump or autoloader. Don't think there is anything quite as threatening thing to any criminal/home-invader than the sound----in the dark----of someone racking a shell into the chamber of a 12 gauge pump shotgun.

natedog
November 16, 2003, 04:31 PM
.30 Carbine has twice the muzzle energy of the .45 ACP (I know, I know, it isn't JUST muzzle energy that determines effectiveness) and it is almost as powerful as a .357 Magnum out of a rifle barrel.

Mannlicher
November 16, 2003, 06:00 PM
the .30 M1 Carbine is a bang up good HD weapon. I have two, both WW II vintage, a RockOla and an Inland. One 15 round in the magwell, and two on the butt stock, make a handy, and effective weapon. For HD, I load up with Remington 110 Gr SP ammo. Personally, I have no use for optics or lights on a HD rifle. I look at all that 'tactical' stuff as just an affectation.

Sven
November 16, 2003, 06:07 PM
Those dissing the accessorization potential of the carbine haven't been keeping up with my half-dozen threads 'bout the UltiMAK forward mount:

http://www.ultimak.com/products/30CarbAimpoint2.jpg
Ultimak M6-B Forward Carbine Weaver Mount (http://www.ultimak.com/m6.htm)

I'm putting a leopold M8 2.5 x 28 scout scope on mine... everything is here, but I was shipped the wrong rings so I'm going to have to wait a bit further. For a HD scenario, a Trijicon reflex site might be good (always on) or for the SWAT scenarios, a red dot.

In California, we cannot own ARs unless purchased before 97... for those just getting into this, the carbine is a fun gun and a viable HD gun. Never had a jam with mine. All that said, racking the 870 would send Goblins running faster than displaying my Carbine, me thinks... either way, the Goblin would be in trouble if he pressed on further.

Georgia Arms "canned heat" hollowpoints have never let me down.

-

Edit: the rings worked... see my post here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50200)

Larry
November 16, 2003, 06:38 PM
The M1 Carbine was issued to officers and sargeants and was to be used in close quarters combat.

Sounds like a ticket for home defense. I shot one in the military and considered it a good plinking gun, very reliable and field stripping was one screw and the whole thing came apart. The instructions said you could use an empty shell case or a coin if you did not have a screw driver to remove the band where the wood meets the barrel.

The model I used was the M2, full auto with a selector lever. I thought the gun was very simple and reliability. It shot after being dropped in a river and dripping with mud.

Don't be swayed by the big bullet fans. Yours is big enough. I use a Winchester 94 in 30-30 for home defense. I practice a lot, work at different ranges, light conditions and target shapes. I am very accurate with my home defense gun and think a home defense weapon choice has to be what works for you. The choice is only one step. If you can handle the carbine well and put bullets on target you're on your way to having a home defense package.

What have you desided?

Justin
November 16, 2003, 06:39 PM
As far as using a .223 for HD, I think that's a bad idea. I've seen tests stating that yes, .223 will penetrate many layers of drywall, and that no, it won't. I'd much rather err on the side of caution and stay away from higher-pressure rounds.

At the very least, it seems that touching an AR off indoors without hearing protection would be tres loud, as compared to the (I assume) lower pressure .30 Carbine. (Yes, I realize that the M1 is still going to be really loud.)

I can take or leave the red-dot sites. While I am sure that they are useful, I don't have enough experience with them to make a judgement.

Might be interesting to see if someone developed an attachment for that Ultimak rail that would allow you to hang a Surefire off to one side.

Hmmmm...

Glock Glockler
November 16, 2003, 06:52 PM
One option could be one of those Timberwolf .357 pump actions. Out of a small rifle like that the .357 is absolutely devestating and I think you'll have less penetration issues than with the smaller .30 caliber. It also helps as far as standardization goes, that's if you aleady own a .357 pistol or plan to.

Crimper-D
November 16, 2003, 07:06 PM
I mounted an Aimpoint Red Dot sight on my little Civilian made Universal Carbine, and it makes a NASTY little defense gun in low light conditions.
I load and shoot HP's and SP's in mine with no feeding problems.
I hope I never encounter a situation where I Need 10, 15 or 30 rounds at close range, but better something fast, quiet and combat proven.
;)

JimJD
November 16, 2003, 08:38 PM
My Dad has one of those universal carbines.
He's pretty happy with it.
The reason he purchased it back in the seventies was for HD.
Some have low opinions of that particular version, but it has'nt failed yet.
Hope it never does.
I just wish the ammo was as cheap as .223

4v50 Gary
November 16, 2003, 08:52 PM
I don't have a fancy Leupold LE relief scope. Got a cheapie Tasco. Should look for a red dot though.

Vern Humphrey
November 16, 2003, 10:16 PM
I have shot a man with an M2 carbine. The carbine wound up getting wrapped around a tree, and I bummed an M1 Garand off the ARVN unit I advised, and carried it from then on.

With ball cartridges, I would never trust my life to a carbine. With softnose ammo, I'm not sure -- no experience.

But a .357 magnum, from a 6" Colt Model 357 is why I'm able to tell the story.

Smokey Joe
November 17, 2003, 02:14 AM
The M1 Carbine is a "collector item," meaning that while there used to be plenty of 'em, for cheap, now the collectors have snapped most of 'em up and driven the prices up beyond where a body can justify buying one for ordianry purposes, like shooting. Therefore I'd hesitate to buy one, if you want a HD weapon, or to modify one in any way at all. They used to be real nice plinking weapons, a kid's first deer rifle, etc. etc.

For HD, if you need a rifle, the carbine would be about right. But for today's cheap, fun-to-shoot, low-powered, low-recoil rifle, perfect for plinking and a kid's first deer rifle, I'd suggest an SKS. As an added plus, they aren't quite as old as the M1 carbines, and they were built like a brick pizzeriaÑutterly reliable. Any way you want to modify it is fine, there are millions of 'em available. Some day the collectors will have snapped up all of those, too, I suppose, and priced us USERS out of the market, and we will have to turn to something else.

You can get US made after-market mags for the SKS if you want more than 10 rounds. My SKS digests everything I feed it, milsurp, Russian, US commercial, my handloads, everything. It isn't real accurate at 100 yd, but at in-house range, no probbie.

Wildalaska
November 17, 2003, 03:04 AM
Good enuf for my home defense gun this month

Wild15roundsasfastasIcanpullthetriggerAlaska

OH25shooter
November 17, 2003, 07:37 AM
IMHO a M-1 Carbine IS NOT a home defense weapon. Think about it. You start firing that rifle in the middle of the night inside a wooden structure with other family members inside...I don't think so. Now, if you live alone in a concrete block home...maybe. Seriously, you should probably ask yourself, how do I react when awakened out of a deep sleep at 3:30 a.m. Are you even alert enough to grab a long gun (rifle) and wheel it around inside your bedroom. Where would it be stored? A handgun is more feasable. Take your carbine to the range and have a fun time shooting it. That's my answer to your original question.

Newton
November 17, 2003, 08:10 AM
The M1 carbine as a fighting weapon is all about suitable ammunition.

The soft points out there are better than ball, but with an average velocity hovering around 1900fps or so, a heavier hollowpoint would be a great load.

Corbon is rumored to be looking at marketing one, but they are uncertain as to just how many they would actually sell, I don't think they have got over the big surprise they had with the poor sales of their excellent 9x18 load, so designing new rounds for milsurps may be questionable.

FMJ in 30 Carb is a poor load, but it is easy to shoot and follow ups can be made quickly.

Jim Cirillo was a great fan of this gun when loaded with SPs, I believe the comment he made in his book was that he never saw anyone go down faster than a perp hit with a 30 Carbine soft point.

I would think that a shotgun will always be the best HD weapon, I find it hard to agree with those who use an SKS or AR for HD, the M1 carbine is a better, but less than ideal choice. As ever YMMV.

Jiles111
November 17, 2003, 08:21 AM
"The other neat thing about 'em is that they seem -- at least through muffs-- significantly easier on the ears than a .223. Now granted I still wouldn't want to touch one off inside, but I suspect there'd be less long term hearing damage than from an M4 knockoff or suchlike"

With hearing protection I can hear my M1 cycling the next round (mechanical sounds). It is pretty quiet, and with softpoints it would make a good HD weapon. A handgun would be more ideal, but a carbine would have bigger scare factor in my opionion. Plus with a 30rnd clip you will have plenty of shots if you need them. The softpoints will not penatrate to much, making this a good HD weapon, but the ball ammo rounds are hard to stop.

Al Thompson
November 17, 2003, 10:19 AM
I wouldn't worry much about the noise. I was in a room when someone fired a .30-30 once. Some ringing, but no disorientation or anything.

Other than the issue of overpenetration, the M1 should work fine.

enfield
November 17, 2003, 12:07 PM
I normally carry a Universal carbine in the trunk of my car, and it's the first firearm loaded into the camper when we go out. I don't feel undergunned with it and 4 15rd mags. I keep a 12 gauge with #1 buck at home, but if I had 2 carbines the 12 gauge might be in the safe.

El Rojo
November 17, 2003, 12:15 PM
I never understood the whole "loud noise of home defense gun" factor in the decision to defend your life. It just seems like such a moot point when it comes down to life or death. Yeah it might be loud, yeah I might lose a little more hearing, but it beats being dead or shot and wounded. Those of you with handguns next to your bed don't worry about the hearing issue do you? Cops don't run around with Peltor Model 7's on their heads just in case they have to "shoot inside". If you ask me I would use a 155mm or a 16 inch in my house if it were the best way to stop an intruder (you never know when an APC might come through the front door!).

I have three guns immediately ready in my bedroom. Glock 27, Remington 870P, and the M1 Carbine. If I have the time, the shotgun will be my first choice. The carbine second. The Glock 27 last. And if I really need it, the K-31 and M44 are there with two strippers next to each.

Atlas Shrug
November 17, 2003, 01:29 PM
Basically, El Rojo has it right IMHO.

I'm pretty much set up in the same way for HD (except that my handgun isn't a G27).

However, I'd suggest that you ALWAYS grab BOTH the shotgun (870 here) and pistol when first suiting up for HD. Have the pistol in your belt, the longun slung up and ready to go.

444
November 17, 2003, 01:50 PM
"...........and it is almost as powerful as a .357 Magnum out of a rifle barrel."

More like, about as powerful as a .357 Magnum out of a pistol barrel.

224Man
November 17, 2003, 02:05 PM
By El Rojo: And if I really need it, the K-31 and M44 are there with two strippers next to each.
Wow you UCLA boys sure know how to pick women.:D

I think a major caliber pistol (.40, .45, 10mm etc.) equipped with night sights and a Surefire light would be a more suitable choice when compared to an M1 Carbine without light source.

The FBI conducted extensive testing and the .223 has LESS penetration in ballistic gelatin after going through drywall than pistol HP rounds, the drywall plugs the point and creates a round nose bullet two to three times heavier than the AR's. The pistol rounds penetrated more deeply after going through multiple layers of drywall the AR’s lost a significant amount of penetration. Hornandy TAP ammunitions in 45-55 gr. range would be the best choice if over penetration is a major concern.

An AR15 with a 16" bbl. powerful mounted Surefire light and iron sights or a red dot would be an ideal home defense weapon, in many cases. Regardless keep a powerful white light source with your HD weapon.
Proper target identification is FAR more important than over penetration concerns. Your likelihood of killing what you're aiming at is several orders of magnitude higher than killing someone on the other side of a wall.
224Man

Jiles111
November 17, 2003, 07:56 PM
I never understood the whole "loud noise of home defense gun" factor in the decision to defend your life.

How can you defend yourself if you are deafened and distored by the blast and blinded by the flash?

clint1911a1
November 17, 2003, 09:21 PM
If it's a rifle you want for home defense, why not make it an SAR-1 (AK-47)? They're short (16" barrel), lightweight, and handy. The 7.62x39mm is quantum leaps ahead of the .30 carbine as far as ballistic performance goes (i.e. it packs nearly three times the energy, longer range, greater penetration, etc.). Thirty round AK mags feed reliably (a rarity in thirty round carbine mags). The AK rifle itself is way more reliable than the carbine. Finally, the price. Going rate for a military M-1 carbine is between $500 and $600 these days. You can pick up an SAR-1 for around $290-$330 now. A way better weapon all the way around for way less money. Makes sense to me anyway. ;)

natedog
November 17, 2003, 09:48 PM
.30 Carbine Military Specs:

1975 FPS
110 grain FMJ bullet =
952 FP energy at the muzzle


.30 Carbine Commercial Remington Express:

1990 FPS
110 grain soft point =
967 fp energy at the muzzle, or 600 fpe at 100 yards

.357 Magnum Cor-bon

1265 FPS
180 grain BCSP =
640 FPE at the muzzle

Sodbuster
November 17, 2003, 11:10 PM
http://www.gunsnet.net/album/showphoto.php?photo=13316&papass=&sort=1&thecat=998

It's not an Ultimak, Justin, but it's interesting. BTW It's not mine.

Kim du Toit
November 17, 2003, 11:29 PM
I don't have my M1 ready for HD (handgun & shotgun), but I do have it stored in my grab 'n go bag for a SHTF piece -- softpoint ammo and all.

But I wouldn't say no to the M1 for HD -- ONE of those .30 Car bullets might not do the trick, but FOUR would surely end the discussion: and it's really easy to get four down the tube ASAP with the "non-recoiling" M1.

El Rojo
November 18, 2003, 12:35 AM
How can you defend yourself if you are deafened and distored by the blast and blinded by the flash?
Don't shoot a warning shot and use proper illumination is the simple answer. I shouldn't be blinded by the flash when I am illuminating the intruder with a flashlight or the lights are on or it is daylight. I will not be shooting dark objects in the house without proper identification. To do otherwise would be foolish to the extreme. If I do shoot, I should be on or I wouldn't be shooting. I think the odds of a center mass hit with my Remington 870 at the max distance of my house of 15 yards (maybe) are pretty good. As far as being disorientated by the sound, I find that to be difficult to acheive with the sound of an AR-15. A flashbang, yes, but the AR-15 is not a flashbang grenade.

Again, I don't understand the whole sound factor. Men in combat have never seemed to make a big deal about the sound of the Garand or AR-15. Sure it caused some hearing loss, but they lived through combat.

444
November 18, 2003, 01:15 AM
natedog
Not sure who you are referring to but let me point out what a handloader can do with a .357 HANDGUN using published load data put out by a major powder manufacturer.
http://recipes.alliantpowder.com/rg.taf?_function=pistolrevolver&step=2&bulletID=24&cartridgeID=1015&caliber=%2E357&cartridgedescr=Mag%2E&bulletdescr=110%20JHP

They claim to get 2040 fps out of a 5.6" barreled revolver using a 110 grain bullet. I personally have never achieved that velocity. I only get about 1980 fps out of a 6 1/2" Ruger Blackhawk using that load. Never the less, I am shooting a 110 grain bullet (of larger diameter) out of a handgun at roughly the same speed as GI ball ammo out of a full sized .30 Carbine. My tests have shown that with my 16" barreled Marlin 1894C .357 carbine that I get anywhere from 150 to over 500 fps increase in velocity in the carbine over a 4" barreled .357 handgun when using the same loads. The lower numbers were with very fast burning powders. The big increases were seen with slow for caliber powders. Blue Dot is about in the middle of these burn rates. I have never choronoed a 110 grain bullet out of the carbine, but an educated guess would put that load around 300 fps faster out of the carbine than the pistol. So, I stand by my statement that the .30 Carbine using GI Ball ammo is about the same as a .357 handgun.

Sunray
November 18, 2003, 02:26 PM
No rifle is good for home defense. The bullets tend to go through walls and in the heat of a high pucker factor situation accurate shooting if difficult unless you have several years training and experience. If you fire at a bad guy, miss and that bullet goes through your wall or window and hits somebody half a mile away, it's your fault. Forget about the rifle and use a pump shotgun loaded with buck shot.
Sven, what the hell is that? Carbines don't need all that aftermarket crappola. And a scope buggers up the balance.

Sven
November 18, 2003, 02:35 PM
Sunray: balance point is right at the magazine, feels great. To each their own!

El Rojo
November 18, 2003, 02:56 PM
The bullets tend to go through walls and in the heat of a high pucker factor situation accurate shooting if difficult unless you have several years training and experience.
I beg to differ. Shooting a rifle at 15 yards max distance shouldn't be hard for anyone. Sure it might be a little more difficult to do it in high pucker situations, but to say it is difficult is quite a stretch. I don't have any real training and I definitely don't have any experience shooting burglars inside my home, but I think I can manage with the rifle.

Wildalaska
November 18, 2003, 02:58 PM
To each their own

And thats the bottom line isnt it? All these endless deabtes, over and over and over again, whats the best SHTF rifle, What woould you use? etc all boil down to the same thin....

What do YOU like the best? What fits you the best? What do you shoot the best? Find it and practice, practice, practice.....

Who cares if a 357 has more energy than a 30 carbine? If yyou like the 30, have one and can shoot it well...go for it...you think some homebreaker isnt gonna be impressed when you pump 15 rounds into his chest at a range of 7 feet?

WildpracticeAlaska

444
November 18, 2003, 08:20 PM
"Who cares if a 357 has more energy than a 30 carbine?"

I do for one. Obviously other people do also. We get on here to discuss stuff like this; that is the point of a forum. Arguing over arcane ideas and numbers is what pulls a lot of gun people's chains. Talking about our hobby is just plain fun.
I am sure when the smoke clears we all pick and choose whatever we want, but on here it is all about discussing it just for the sake of discussion.
I have owned a .30 Carbine and enjoyed the heck out of it. It is yet another one of those foolish mistakes that I sold it. I would love to have another one, but the present prices have exceeded my desire to own one. I also currently own a Ruger Blackhawk chambered in .30 Carbine. I enjoy it also. I really enjoy discussing the features of various firearms and their cartridges and this one is no exception. I like to really know what they will do; factual information. I assume I am no exception, otherwise forums like this would cease to exist.

oscar
November 18, 2003, 08:40 PM
I have an M-1 carbine and would not hesitate to grab it. I also have a Winchester 94 in 44 mag that is light and very handy also.

JShirley
November 18, 2003, 11:37 PM
Yes.

"No rifle is good for home defense" Rubbish. If you have the advantage of being in your domicile, and need to use a weapon, you should grab a longarm. Sidearms are, by nature, reactive weapons that are only used by those who don't have access to longarms, which are more powerful, more accurate, and more easily controlled.

If you can't hit your target with a rifle, you can't hit it with a pistol, and so, should not be shooting at anything.

Justin
November 18, 2003, 11:40 PM
No rifle is good for home defense. The bullets tend to go through walls and in the heat of a high pucker factor situation accurate shooting if difficult unless you have several years training and experience. If you fire at a bad guy, miss and that bullet goes through your wall or window and hits somebody half a mile away, it's your fault. Forget about the rifle and use a pump shotgun loaded with buck shot. That's what would be attractive about the M1 carbine. The round it fires is more from the realm of the pistol than from the rifle. Since it's slower than your average rifle round, but faster than your average pistol round, seems to me that would be a nice niche for a HD weapon. Plus, if you have problems handling a carbine or rifle in a defensive situation, you're going to definately have problems shooting accurately with a pistol, and a shotgun certainly wouldn't be much more likely to hit, either.

As for using a centerfire rifle round, .223, or 7.62x39, no way, Jose. I've seen pics of plate steel penetrated by frangible .223 rounds. (Rob would be able to offer more information regarding the particulars of the circumstances.)

Am I touting the M1 Carbine as the end-all, be-all weapon system for HD?
Nah. But it certainly does seem to fit a lot of the criteria very well.

Of course, in the end, you pays your money and you takes your chances with whatever weapon you choose. Nothing is 100% foolproof, nor is there any firearm that is the best choice for everyone in any given situation.

I am just kinda tossing this out there as food for thought.

subrosa999
June 21, 2008, 06:00 PM
For those that think a .357 Magnum has twice the energy as a 30 Carbine, I suggest you check ballistics tables. The 30 carbine hits with close to a 1000lbs. of energy with a 110 gr bullet - at the muzzle. I know of no standard
.357 Magnum that generates that kind of energy.

Art Eatman
June 21, 2008, 08:40 PM
I'd not lose the first moment's sleep over the idea of using a GI Carbine for self-defense in my home. It oughta be more effective up close and personal than it would have been when I was walking a guard post in Korea...

Handloads can make them more effective for defense, just like on coyotes.

Dunno why you can't hang a flashlight on one. You don't need somebody to make some fancy-shmancy mount. Get some balsa wood, do a tad of carving so the light is aligned, and use hose clamps. Or fold a handkerchief for padding and use duct tape. The silly gun won't care at all.

M2 Carbine
June 21, 2008, 08:51 PM
Ok, here's a question- Is the M1 Carbine a good choice for home defense?

Yes.

Gator
June 21, 2008, 10:09 PM
But is an M2 better? :)

An M1 Carbine with proper ammo is like a .357 on steroids and, while I like a shotgun for HD, I would feel comfortable with one bedside.

D'oh! Darn zombie threads...

FMJMIKE
June 21, 2008, 11:18 PM
An Inland M1 Carbine is my home defense weapon. It is under my bed waiting until called to duty. I know from personal experience that firing a .223/5.56 inside is disorienting. M1 Carbines are not nearly as loud. To each his own...:D
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/mbmphoto/Inland2H.jpg

M2 Carbine
June 22, 2008, 12:00 AM
Gator
But is an M2 better?

A fellow at work was talking about breaking into my place.

I told him I would empty the first magazine into his car so that he can't get away. Then I would see if I could get the whole second magazine into him before he hit the ground.

He decided that staying far away from my place would be a good idea.:D

Ignition Override
June 22, 2008, 01:04 AM
Kim:
I've really enjoyed reading your info on a "certain website".

Justin:
My former brand-new (last October) Auto-Ord. Carbine's bolt got stuck after only two months, despite being well-treated, kept clean and oiled. Although the factory made it operate very well, I was so disappointed :((became biased) overall about a gun which I had always liked and made the decision to sell the gun before it was even shipped back.

Purchased last October, it was the first gun I had ever bought (but then fell for Minis when it was in the factory and bought the 14 and 30, both used).
Have never used a real GI type. My former carbine is still in the store which bought it from me three months ago, with a high-cap. magazine (it looks really lonely and unwanted). Experienced gun owners say that the GI Carbine's action is more rugged.
Along with my other carbines, could easily imagine having an SKS so-called 'Paratrooper' for home defense with hollow-points.
Its x39 round, along with .223 (Mini 14 etc) is quite common, affordable and used by so many other reliable, durable guns (let's not forget Saigas).

mutt
June 22, 2008, 01:31 AM
I was issued one in the service , Loved it. I had good results
up 75 yards.Little tighter aim needed for 100 or so. I also had one when I was again a civilian . No kick to worry about easy to carry (miles a time ) Smooth to shoot. I don't remember the brand (?) of the one I bought ,but is was military surplus for $ 50 .Wish I still had it. But my Rossi
lever .357 does a great job taking it's place . Get it and enjoy .

MUTT

Sunray
June 22, 2008, 02:23 AM
Geez, look at that. A thread that started 5 years ago is still going strong.
"...significantly easier on the ears..." No cartridge fired inside is easy on your hearing. One shot out of any firearm will cause irrepairable hearing loss.
"...Then I would see if I could..." Planning for it is called 1st degree murder.
"...is an M2 better?..." An M2 is an MG. When you send bullets all over creation, you are responsible for where every one of 'em ends up.
"...more from the realm of the pistol than from..." Nope. It's a 300 yard carbine round. Has nothing whatever to do with handguns of any kind.
"...hang a flashlight on one..." Whatever for?

Smokey Joe
June 22, 2008, 02:27 AM
This is an old thread, resurrected. FWIW, what I said abt the M1 Carbine being a collectors' item only doesn't apply, now that CMP has lots of 'em for sale. If you want a shooter, get an Inland--the commonest and therefore the cheapest. The rarer ones are pricier.

CMP's prices aren't those of the '50's and '60's, but those days are gone forever and there's no use crying over spilt milk. For a beautifully machined gas gun in a short rifle, built like a brick pizzeria, with 15 rounds ready-to-go, you can't beat the little carbine.

For HD it might be the IDEAL weapon--I dunno really, but it's so short, light, handy, easy to point, no recoil to speak of, more rounds than almost any pistol in the mag, that surely it is worth considering.

The SKS is longer, heavier, more unwieldy in close quarters, louder, more energy/round, therefore more penetration to worry abt, and only has 10 shots in the mag. Between those two, anyway, the .30 Carbine and the SKS, I'd say it's no contest, given easy availability of both.

And yes, you can get 2 SKS's for the price of one M1 Carbine, with change left over for ammo. If you're strapped for cash that's certainly a consideration.

BTW, I've got examples of both. The SKS is fun to modify, in all sorts of ways. The M1 Carbine??? It's perfect as it is! It is one of those rare creations that "they" got right on the first try!

Cocked & Locked
June 22, 2008, 09:22 AM
Is the M1 Carbine a swell home defense gun?

Loaded with JHP's I would think very much so. Plus if equipped accordingly, one can use it for a letter opener.


1942 Inland Div., GM
http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2169/3082611/17383006/85822737.jpg

DMK
June 22, 2008, 09:34 AM
"...more from the realm of the pistol than from..." Nope. It's a 300 yard carbine round. Has nothing whatever to do with handguns of any kind. The M1 Carbine is the Rodney Dangerfield of long guns.

Some folks say that it's a useless, weak round. "kind of like a .22 on steroids" was what one thread post said back in 2003. "Can't shoot through a Chinese overcoat". "Use a real rifle", maybe an AK or SKS. Don't use a rifle for home defense, use a handgun.

Then there's the argument on the other side of the coin: It's too powerful. It will shoot through walls. "If you fire at a bad guy, miss and that bullet goes through your wall or window and hits somebody half a mile away".

I think the truth is somewhere between, but compromise doesn't make for good drama in the Interweb forums.

Even pistol rounds shoot through walls. If a bullet can't make it through a glass window or a few inches of sheetrock, it's not powerful enough for self defense IMO. Shoot your favorite 9mm or 45ACP handgun at your wall and see if it doesn't go through.

Benefits over the handgun: The M1 Carbine has the added advantage of a longer sight radius, it is secured to the body at three points instead of one, and the weight and secure hold allow faster follow up shots. There is also a higher probability of your shots hitting your intended target than there is with a handgun.

Drawbacks compared to the handgun: Size. That means you likley won't have it on you all the time (but how many carry a handgun on body in their own home?). It's longer than a deployed handgun, so it would be slightly more unwieldy to use than a handgun inside a building.

Drawbacks when compared to a rifle: For home defense/personal defense within 50 yards? I can't think of any, unless your attacker is wearing body armor or attacking you with a motor vehicle.

U.S.SFC_RET
June 22, 2008, 11:09 AM
You need confidence with whatever firearm you are wanting to use. Your selection depends on safety, dependability and ease of use. Not only for you but for the wifey as well.
I absolutely love that carbine and its my #1 choice, here's why.
1. Its short, light and goes through doors.
2. This one is very dependable and eats remington hollowpoints beautifully.
3. High magazine capacity.
4. Ease of shooting and recoil.
5. Serves as home defence and property. See signature below.
6. Confidence factor rates very high with this weapon. It is a weapon because it is designed to kill.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
June 22, 2008, 11:35 AM
You can do a LOT worse than an M1 carbine for home defense and general defense. You can even put a bayo on it! The advantages have been outlined above, and it's certainly quite lethal in the right hands. I would never volunteer to get shot with one. It's probably in the top 4 or 5 choices of long arm types for home defense.

MCgunner
June 22, 2008, 11:38 AM
I'd want no rifle caliber for defense in the house or an apartment, over-penetration. But, the carbine is a pistol round regardless of what it was designed to be shot in, truth be told. In a Blackhawk, it ain't got the whop of a .357 Magnum and a .357 Magnum in a rifle, well...... But, for home defense, it's light and handy and might just be dandy...my rhyme for the day. :D I'd shoot hollow points, of course.

jad0110
June 22, 2008, 01:30 PM
but how many carry a handgun on body in their own home?).

DMK,

I do :p ... I've got my 5" 1911 45 ACP riding in an IWB holster and my S&W 642 doing BUG duty in a pocket holster as I type this. But, I've been out and about today, so I just leave the 1911 in place. Usually, it's just the 642 around the house. I live in a safe neighborhood, but bad stuff happens to good people on a daily basis. 'Course, if it hits the fan, I'll be making tracks to my safe (if safe to do so) to retrieve my Mossberg 590A loaded with 00 buck.

As you said it youself...Benefits over the handgun: The M1 Carbine has the added advantage of a longer sight radius, it is secured to the body at three points instead of one, and the weight and secure hold allow faster follow up shots. There is also a higher probability of your shots hitting your intended target than there is with a handgun.

The best medicine for overpenetration is to hit what you are aiming at. As others have said, pistol rounds can blow through many walls too. Especially something like 7.62 x 25 or 9mm ball. For most people, a longarm of some type increases the likelihood of putting lead on badguy in a high stress situation.

For HD, I think an M1 would be dandy, if it is reliable and you are confident with it. Same goes for an AR, .30-30 levergun, shotgun, etc. I prefer a 12 gauge loaded with buckshot myself.

MCgunner
June 22, 2008, 01:43 PM
but how many carry a handgun on body in their own home?).

I do, too. I carry 24/7, my 9mm KT in my pocket. It's no harder to carry than not carrying, so I have it with me ALL the time, everywhere. That's why I got a carry permit, so I could carry everywhere. I take it out to clean it once in a while, 'bout the only time it's not ready for prime time. Now, in bed at night, my shotgun is by my side and my .38 is in the drawer of my night stand. The door is locked, safe room strategy. Come through that door and you get a face full of number 3 buck.

bogie
June 22, 2008, 07:50 PM
Well, it strikes me as the perfect zombie defense rifle.

Not too big, not too heavy, light recoil, decent terminal ballistics.

Only problem is that they're now hard to get ammo for - you pretty much just need to buy a lot of brass, and reload.

If someone would build a new model in 9mm, that would be just so cool.

What's the head size on .30M1?

(looked it up...

0.360"...

And ballistics, in carbine-length barrels, look remarkably similar to light-bullet .357 loads...

Hornady maxes a 110 grainer at 2000 from the M1, and a 125 grainer at 1950 from the .357 carbine... I'd probably give the nod to the .357, due to large bullet cross section, and greater availability of well-constructed hollowpoints. Plus, you can load 180 grainers if you like... That is IMPRESSIVE.

Case-head-size-wise, the .32ACP is the right size, and could be fun, but at the same time, not a lot of power, and one would need to get seriously into handloading, with limited component availability (same problem as the M1). If the bolt can be opened up a little, 9mm would probably be the optimum choice.

jaholder1971
June 22, 2008, 11:40 PM
The only drawback to the M1 carbine is lack of good ammunition.

You've got ball, softnose and Winchester's Hollow soft nose, which acts like softnose. From my experience with my carbine the softnosed bullets either don't open and overpenetrate or they fragment, the jackets come off and the lead core overpenetrates.

Someone needs to make a tough, reliable little bullet that will open up reliably in soft tissue without fragmenting to pieces at carbine velocities. That will bring the carbine into it's own.

jrfoxx
June 23, 2008, 07:49 AM
I'll agree that M1 carbine would likely be a great HD gun. I'm amazed at how light and handy it is, and 15rds is pretty decent capacity.Ammo does seem to be an issue though. Speer needs to make Gold Dots for relaoding, and/or somebody needs to make a Gold Dot load commercially for it. IMHO, that would go a LONG way to making me consider my M1 for my HD gun.

mnw42
June 23, 2008, 11:03 AM
Zombie... brains!!!!!!!!

Cor-bon makes a 100 gr DPX at around 2,000 fps and I've got two 15 rd sticks ready to go just in case. Right now my M1 is apart on the bench for cleaning so my Winchester is next to the bead. It is nice to live in a house made out of cinder block and to have no immediate neighbors.

http://docstech.com/pertinax/arms/M1%20Carbine%20IBM-right-sm.jpg

Harley Quinn
June 23, 2008, 11:31 AM
Yep the little shooter is nice for the home defense, or self defense :uhoh:

The ones who would pick a 9 mm or some other pistol round are only kidding I'd hope (carbines of pistol rounds) :) Some are as good or better, but the M1 carbine has a history that is really sort of cool.

;)

Mattole
June 23, 2008, 05:58 PM
Dern right it would make a great home defense gun. But I would definately recommend ammo like the CorBon DPX to try to minimize overpenetration, if thin walls and nearby neighbors are a reality for you.

For those who say the M1 carbine is underpowered, I want to relate this: a few days ago I went out into the woodlot in back of my house (no neighbors around for a long long way) and shot fro 30 yards at a Douglas fir tree that was about 12-14" diameter (it was a tree that I will be cutting for firewood so I didn't feel too badly about it). Anyway, I shot 7 rounds at a knot in the tree at chest level, and all of them blew completely through the tree and into the dirt bank in back of it. I think in a self defense situation the carbine would do just fine...

Harley Quinn
June 23, 2008, 06:55 PM
Mattole,
I have heard stories where Marines and Army shot the heck out of trees to expend ammo in days of old. So much so they fell some :)

The same now I hear, shooting through block houses and trees :what: On purpose or accidently, the bullet does not know nor has it a memory:uhoh:

Scary for sure. Responsible ownership is essential.

I was shooting a hand gun 30 cal Ruger years and years ago, I was on a pistol range. The range master came out and told me to shoot it on the rifle range, the Ruger was pretty new then and he had not seen one. :)

http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/l/aastruger30bh.htm

In 1968 or so I believe, they were new on the mkt and noisy:what:

brlau
June 23, 2008, 08:35 PM
...unless your attacker is wearing body armor...

This was posted by Dr. Gary Roberts on Tactical Forums years ago:

The best ammunition choice for the M1 Carbine is the Remington 110 gr JSP (R30CAR)—at an average velocity of 1864 f/s, it expands to .54” to .58” and penetrates 13” to 16” whether in bare gelatin, through automobile windshields, or Level IIIa body armor. This is as good as the best .223’s. M1 carbines have a poor reputation when using GI ball ammo, but good expanding bullets offer a stunning leap in incapacitation potential and should cause us to rethink the M1 carbine as a law enforcement patrol rifle. It is easy to shoot, inexpensive, and is well accepted by the public.
The Winchester 110 gr JSP works reasonably well, but has a bit smaller permanent wound channel compared to the Remington load. By the way, the Federal 110 gr JSP carbine bullet acts just like ball without any expansion. Hornady 90 gr JHP-XTP bullets offered insufficient penetration when fired from the carbine.

RockyMtnTactical
June 23, 2008, 08:39 PM
Better than your average pistol caliber carbine, not as good as an AR15 though.

Doug S
June 24, 2008, 01:06 AM
Although, I have other first line defensive firearms, I keep a GI M1 Carbine handy as backup. I wouldn't hesitate to use one for self defense, if need be.

arthurcw
June 24, 2008, 01:22 AM
My only problem with using it as a HD gun is the likelihood it will have to spend months away from home all alone and scared in a police locker should I need to use it.

I love all my guns, but I love my milsurps more. It’s hard to imagine my little Inland shivering in the dark. Makes me sad. I’ll stick to guns that have less sentimental value to me.

david_the_greek
June 24, 2008, 10:15 AM
Coming up to a situation where I'm moving to well kept neighborhood in a sea of slums and trouble makers (its for school, not much choice). The neighbors on the block are all top notch people who watch out for each other, the basement windows have bars and their is an alarm system (though that will likely not connect to a service when I move in. Thinking about what to take, this rifle came to mind. I'd love to bring my tacticool AR and 1911, since they are my most effective weapons (in my hands at least and of my collection). Heaven forbid I have to use the rifle or stand someone down with it, I wouldn't want my AR being taken away for x months or perhaps someone seeing it, running away, and getting the bright idea to try to steal it when I'm away.

106rr
June 25, 2008, 03:21 AM
The noise issue is valid. If you have an infant in the house a gunfight could damage the kids hearing permanently. Many people have families to consider. It is never an issue outdoors but inside a bunker it certainly is. There is no reason to damage your own hearing in a gunfight if you can avoid it and still defend your family.
The 30 carbine Sp has been tested in gelatin. Rem/Win wil penetrate 12 to 18 inches and expand at least to .65 to .72 caliber. Search Tactical Forums for details. The canned heat loads are made with Speer Gold Dot bullets I think.
It is a great HD weapon in California and excellent anywhere else.

Kosh75287
June 25, 2008, 04:38 AM
I guess the counter question to "Is the .30 M1 carbine a swell home defense gun?" Is "Compared to what?"

I'd certainly rather have it over any .22 (I don't care HOW wonderfully accurate your favorite rimfire is, said accuracy was obtained with nobody threatening you). I'd prefer it over a single shot shotgun, even a large one. I'd prefer it over any pocket pistol, and quite a few of the less powerful "major caliber" defensive pistols (say, .38 special and 9x19, and lesser rounds). If it was loaded with expanding point projectiles, this helps, as long as feeding doesn't suffer, but I'd still rather have a .45 Auto, a .45 Colt, or a .357mag(If one could find a RELIABLE .30 M1, converted to .357, I'd have to consider that favorably). I have a Rossi M1892 in .45 Colt that has done many tours of duty as a burglar chaser. I think THIS would be MY first choice if I was simply forced to use a shoulder-fired piece for it.

After all is said and done, the confidence that the defender has in his weapon, and the mindset with which he reacts when the emergency is upon him will often outweigh a whole host of other factors. A well-practiced light sleeper who's thought out what he(she) intends to do and practiced it and is armed with a .32 auto PPK is probably better armed than one who plops a 12gauge riot gun next to the bed and never gives the matter another thought.
....something about a man named Cooper and the combat mindset....

david_the_greek
June 25, 2008, 11:03 AM
With the paratrooper folding stock, what are the dimensions? Granted the gun itself isn't too large to begin with, a folding stock would make this quite compact for close quarter maneuvering. They are kind of pricey and I'm not sure if you'd have to register as a pistol based on overall length, but a neat concept. Always liked the look of the paratrooper carbines.

Daniel Foster
July 21, 2008, 02:54 PM
For home defense, I would probly use a pistol first, just because of the small, more maneuverable size. My fave is the Glock 23, which is .40 cal. Pow'r ball ammo is the best I have found. This will put anyone down, especially when their magazines hold 13 rounds.

The next best would be an M1 carbine with soft points. I love my Auto Ordnance, sweet carbine!

I think anything bigger than this would be overkill:neener:

For Freedom
July 21, 2008, 04:18 PM
This is my home defense weapon:

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb30/Andrewsky89/55555003.jpg

It's loaded with 110 gr TAP. This round should do less than 11" in ballistic gelatin.

I'm not concerned at all about the noise, but I do keep electronic ear muffs right next to it.

The tritium front sight is nice.

Realbigo
July 31, 2008, 05:53 PM
I set a commercial carbine up as a HD rfor my mother when I moved out, and she lives in an all brick neighborhood but I do worry about over penetration, even w/ the 110grain SP's. Oh and for the light, I used a genaric Maglite w/ the led bulb, muffler clamped to a wood cradle carved to put on a bore line w/ the barrel

Dave Markowitz
July 31, 2008, 08:32 PM
With the paratrooper folding stock, what are the dimensions? Granted the gun itself isn't too large to begin with, a folding stock would make this quite compact for close quarter maneuvering. They are kind of pricey and I'm not sure if you'd have to register as a pistol based on overall length, but a neat concept. Always liked the look of the paratrooper carbines.

Mine measures 25.5" long with the stock closed. (Min. OAL is measured by BATFE with the stock open so this is legal under Federal law. State laws may vary, e.g., MI.)

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c340/davemarkowitz/M1_Carbines/1943-underwood.jpg

It's a 1943 Underwood in a replica M1A1 folder. The case is a USGI surplus M-60 barrel bag.

That said, it's best used with the stock open even in close quarters. Tuck the butt under your arm if you need to bring it in close to your body. This helps control the gun since you still get the advantage of a 3rd point of contact, vs. only 2 if the stock is folded. I fold the stock for storage and transport, not for shooting.

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