Problem with Hornady LNL AP and 9mm load


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Shrinkmd
January 31, 2010, 12:44 AM
I was trying to load my first batch of 9mm this afternoon, and hit a lot of trouble with my die adjustments. Prior to setting up the powder measure, I set up the dies to make perfect dummy rounds. Then, once I started putting cases into the press (Hornady LNL AP, Hornady dies) my OAL's were coming out too long, and the taper crimp die wasn't getting the job done. It was almost as if the press wasn't going all the way down, even though I made sure that the handle was completely pulled down. I was in the process of readjusting the dies to seat and crimp a bit more when I ran out of time.

I remember reading somewhere that the 9x19 is not a completely straight walled case, and that they might need a drop of lube, even in a carbide die, to make the process go smoothly. The sizer die definitely feels different than my 357, 40, or 45 dies, as it seems to stick just a bit on extraction. Do other people experience that?

I am using once fired (by me) CBC Magtech brass so far. The CCI 500 primers go right in, no problem there.

What is the best solution? Do I just need to keep increasing the amount of taper crimp until they all come out right? I have had similar issues in other calibers with the seating die needing an extra .003" or so when all the press stations (especially the sizing die) are being used, as opposed to running one case around the stations at a time. But in 45acp and 40S&W the taper crimp did not need readjusting. It looks like the 9mm does. I also think I might even have to increase the amount of case mouth expansion as well. The 9mm definitely feels different than those other calibers.

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Randy1911
January 31, 2010, 02:32 AM
You need to have the shellplate completely full of cases when adjusting the dies. It can change the amount of ram rise if the shellplate is not not full. At least that is what Hornady told me.

Shrinkmd
January 31, 2010, 07:28 AM
Interesting. I will skip the powder and primers and try running the cases through again, until the dummies come out correctly. Then I'll add powder and primers.

There was definitely less ram rise with the 9mm setup.

Lloyd Smale
January 31, 2010, 07:52 AM
check to see if the shell plate is tight. they tend to come loose and if you adjusted your seating die before adjusting your sizing die or screwed the sizing die down after you adjusted your seating die that will do it. Also make sure your powder dump isnt topping out before you get full stroke.

ole farmerbuck
January 31, 2010, 07:59 AM
I resize, prime and bell the cases then tumble them to get the spray lube off then go back and load them. Works great.

Walkalong
January 31, 2010, 09:31 AM
Me too. It is oh so smooth loading without sizing. I tumble the fired brass, run it through the LNL with only the sizer, hand prime with my RCBS, and then I run it through the LNL to load with no sizer in the mix. Nah, don't clean pistol primer pockets, only rifle.

One thing you will find with your crimp if you are crimping in a forth step, even with no sizing in the mix, is that the press can flex up to .005. (It is not flexing so much as just the pressure from the loading is taking up all the tolerances in the parts)

If you set up your crimp with only the crimp die in the press, and then start loading, expanding, seating, and crimping together, your crimp will be off due to the slight strain on the press taking up slack that only the force of crimping did not.

Once you get going with all the operations being done at the same time, then you must tweak your set up to allow for the difference between one operation at a time vs all the operations going on at once.

floydster
January 31, 2010, 10:36 AM
ofb,
You mean you deprime, size and bell then prime then tumble?

I don't think it's a good idea to tumble empty primed cases.

I tumble my cases first, then deprime, size,bell, then prime the case, I do this in the first step, then remove my sizing die from the LNL then drop powder, check charge ( powder cop die) then do a visual on the powder before seating a bullet.

Floyd

ole farmerbuck
January 31, 2010, 01:55 PM
ofb,
You mean you deprime, size and bell then prime then tumble?

I don't think it's a good idea to tumble empty primed cases.

I tumble my cases first, then deprime, size,bell, then prime the case, I do this in the first step, then remove my sizing die from the LNL then drop powder, check charge ( powder cop die) then do a visual on the powder before seating a bullet.

Floyd
Pistol cases are tumbled then sized,primed and belled then tumbled again. Those empty cases dont weigh enough to make a primer go off tumbling if thats what you're thinking Floydster.(not yet anyway) Or if you're wondering about the polish media getting stuck in a primer, the stuff i use is fine enough that i dont have to worry about that. Even if it did, a primer had better be able to blow that little piece out! I use a rotory media sifter too so not much of a chance for anything stuck in there after a few revolutions. Get the (my) LNL working yet? Want my address? ha

Shrinkmd
January 31, 2010, 04:04 PM
Ok, I readjusted with dummy rounds, and everything is set up correctly, however there are still several rounds per 50 which would not case gauge when loaded, even though they fit fine after resizing. I thought maybe the bullet had a nick on the base or something, and tried different bullets. I am using Dardascast 124gr LRN sized to .356

Could the CBC 9mm brass be junk? I have had no problem with their 45acp cases, but these are not functioning smoothly in the press, they gauge inconsistently (some drop right in, others stick a bit) So far, my experience with 45 acp, 40S&W, and 38/357 was better. I have noticed that using better brass (Federal NT, Starline, WCC 98 Match) does work better!

bds
January 31, 2010, 04:16 PM
You need to have the shellplate completely full of cases when adjusting the dies. It can change the amount of ram rise if the shellplate is not not full. At least that is what Hornady told me.

Really? I use Lee Pro 1000 and sometimes just run 1 case through the loading cycle to check taper crimp quality, OAL, etc. It works same whether I have 1 case or 3 cases.

Wilburt
February 1, 2010, 06:11 PM
Yeah, for whatever reason, the LNL AP needs all stations going to produce the same level of consistancy. :scrutiny: Little quirks, but a nice press.

Walkalong
February 1, 2010, 07:02 PM
Bet if he does some careful measuring, he'll find his press does also.

showmebob
February 1, 2010, 08:12 PM
[as it seems to stick just a bit on extraction.]
Lay your cases on their sides and give them a very quick psst with Hornady Gun Cleaner and Dry Lube. Let them dry for 30 seconds, roll them over and repeat. You will reduce loading effort by 75% and you don't need to clean it off the cases. No more stick on extraction.
Adjust your dies with all stations full and if you really want precision use the same head stamped brass. You should get +/- .002 COL by doing so.

Walkalong
February 1, 2010, 08:55 PM
Polish that expander. You may be feeling it. Test it.

bds
February 1, 2010, 09:12 PM
Bet if he does some careful measuring, he'll find his press does also.

OK, since I size/deprime on the single stage, it's really 2 cases (first hole on turret is empty). So it's just the added pressure of flaring the case and the measurements came out good.

I love using sized and primed cases - no more primer headache!!! :D

Walkalong
February 1, 2010, 11:09 PM
I don't size while loading either. Makes it real smooth.

When I am running cases to load through the LNL, the first bullet being seated in the 4th stage, with a case being expanded, and another getting powder, but without a loaded round being crimped in the 5th stage, that first round seated will be up to .005 longer than all the rest being seated with the crimp going on at the same time.

I love using sized and primed cases - no more primer headache!!!Definitely one of the benefits. :)

Kentucky Jelly
February 1, 2010, 11:23 PM
I find it interesting that so many of you run every round through the press twice instead of running it how it was meant to be run.
Not saying there is anything wrong with it.
I like to fill all 5 stations and go with it. I adjust everything empty. Then adjust seating as I go for he first couple rounds, but keeping all stations full. Once I get my desired OAL I roll them out. Some of the first rounds that were longer get ran back through at the end. Usually only a couple. I do use one shot on my clean brass. After I am done loading I use a big towel and wipe them all down. No need to tumble again.

Sommerled
February 2, 2010, 12:57 AM
Like Kentucky jelly reports, I use all stations in my LnL Ap and have loaded over 14,000 9mm rounds with no issues. Years ago I bought 3K new starline brass and that is all I have been using, perhaps the quality if the brass you're using is suspect? Occaisionally I take my dremmel tool and a small cotton mop and repolish the contact areas of the dies with the finest jewelers rouge available. I had some cases (before using the starline brand) that galled and stuck to the carbide sizing ring surface. Examine the sizing ring under high magnification at your friendly pathologist's lab. I have never lubed a 9mm case.

Sommerled

mallc
February 2, 2010, 07:14 PM
Maybe I'm missing something, but don't you have problems with tumbling media getting stuck in the flash hole of your newly primed cases when re-tumbling primed brass?

Thanks,
Scott

Walkalong
February 2, 2010, 08:34 PM
Nope.

No need to tumble brass agin if there was no lube used.

I tumble the fired brass, run it all through the LNL to size & de-prime, prime with my RCBS hand primer, then load it. I do not clean primer pockets on pistol ammo, but if I did it would be right before priming.

For lubed cases

For .223 where I lube the case, I run it through the LNL to size & de-prime it. Then I tumble the sized brass with no primers to clean it. I check each case and knock out the occasional piece or cob in the flash hole while also making sure there isn't media stuck inside the brass. Then I prime it. Then I load it.

ole farmerbuck
February 2, 2010, 08:39 PM
No. I think this stuff is 20/40 if i remember right and is very fine. I would hope if a little piece did get stuck, the primer would blow it out. I look in my cases and havent seen any in them. I only do it wQuestion for OFB Please?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe I'm missing something, but don't you have problems with tumbling media getting stuck in the flash hole of your newly primed cases when re-tumbling primed brass?

ith pistol cases so its easy to see in there.

ole farmerbuck
February 2, 2010, 08:40 PM
Woops!

ole farmerbuck
February 2, 2010, 08:42 PM
Maybe I'm missing something, but don't you have problems with tumbling media getting stuck in the flash hole of your newly primed cases when re-tumbling primed brass?

Thanks,
Scott
No Never have and only do it with pistol cases.

Shrinkmd
February 7, 2010, 11:38 PM
Not to repeat post, but I shared my experiences in the other thread on CBC brass.

Long story short:
I used the same setup, backed off the taper crimp a drop, and used Winchester brass (once fired or range pickup). And voila! It worked fine, they all gauged correctly, and even the OAL's were pretty consistent. We'll see how they shoot.

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