[Extremely Pro Gun]

I have been pondering this decision for a while. With the money ready, I dont want to choose something without doing even MORE research. I can get deals on some guns and some I cant, which further confuses the situation.

These are the guns I am so indecisive about:

Savage 10 precision carbine 20" $720 after transfer
http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/savage/sav_18605.jpg

Browning A-Bolt TCT Varmint 22" $650 with my deal
http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/images/035705m.jpg

Savage 10FP 24" $650 after Transfer
http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/savage/sav_10fp.jpg

[AcceptableUserName]

Personally, I'd go Rem700. Tried and true. Aftermarket parts, Remington service, etc.

[madd0c]

For a little more I would go with a Tikka T3 Tactical. Guaranteed 1 MOA out of the box, and they mean it! Mine ended up being a 0.5 MOA tack driver after working up the proper load in it. (43gr Rel-15 and Sierra MK 168gr HPBT in mine)

[Extremely Pro Gun]

ooh im gonna check that one out... too expensive.

[praharin]

The cheapest way to get a real sniper rifle is to join any branch of the US military, and work your butt off. You don't get to keep it, but it's free while you have it. Ammo too. Not only that, but they will also give you some of the best training available on how to use it!

Seriously, the rifle doesn't make the sniper. The sniper makes the rifle.

[Boba Fett]

Skip the VTR. IMHO, it is more of a novelty rifle. Plus, Remington say it is a 22" barrel, but realistically, it is a 20" since the brake isn't part of the barrel. I don't mind 20" barrels at all, I just think it is somewhat deceptive on Remington's part IMO.

I have a Savage 10FCP and it is very very accurate.
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=488324&highlight=Savage


For some excellent rifle reviews check out snipercentral.com
http://www.snipercentral.com/rifles.htm

I use them quite extensively in the choice of rifle and scope.


The 700P / 700 SPS was the main contender with the Savage. I'd say it is also a great rifle based on what the THR people who have one have said about them.

[Extremely Pro Gun]

OK I narrowed it down a little more. The new Browning looks awesome with the B&C stock from the factory, but savage has more experience with tactical bolt actions with heavy barrels. I have also been very happy with my Stevens 223 which was made by savage.

The Browning is obviously the MUCH better deal at 50% off msrp, but im not selling them any time soon. SO im more confused. :rolleyes:

[Harold Mayo]

I'm a Remington fan all the way but the Savage is really the one to go to in that price range. If I had it all to do over again, Savage would win my vote for best value in factory precision rifles.

[Boba Fett]

One thing I just thought of about the Savage:

Go to a place that stocks Savage rifles and give the Accu-Trigger system a try. I personally fell in love with it the first time I tried it out.

But there are some people who can't stand them.

IIRC, I believe there are some replacement triggers/systems if you end up hating the Accu-Trigger. I seem to recall a couple people on THR saying they had replaced theirs.

[aubie515]

Wow, a whole 1MOA guarantee...big deal. Most factory rifles from Savage, Remington and FN will do sub MOA.

Good luck with choosing your "sniper rifle."

To the OP...reread your sig line...the first one makes no sense to me. I hope that is not a direct quote.

[Extremely Pro Gun]

Ok so i think I like the 10fp because it is the heaviest and longest barrel. I will be able to hold it steadier the heavier it is, and with my shaky hands haha... I think I will like it the best.

[NWCP]

I've been curious about CZs 750. Looks like a nice rifle, but the cost of playing with it is a bit stiff. Any well made bolt action rifle with a good scope and proper trigger in the right hands can be 'sniper' accurate. It's the shooter that really counts. You can put a $3000 rig in the wrong hands and shoot all over the map with it. On the other hand a well trained military, or police marksman can take a plain vanilla variety off the shelf mid priced sporting rifle and make music with it. JMHO

[hub]

Just another suggestion, last night I seen that Bud's has a FN patrol model in .308 or 300wsm for $739 shipped. Sounds like a good deal they say it msrp's for $1278.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/884/products_id/411538545

[SLCscottie]

Savage 10FP 24" $650

I bought a used one at the gun store. It shoots great. Low recoil with the heavy barrel. Did I say too much fun. I'm now tuning the reloads to maximize the accuracy. This stuff is addicting. Have fun.

[berettaprofessor]

:banghead:Unless you're military, you probably don't really want a SNIPER rifle, you want an ACCURATE HUNTING rifle. Please.....:banghead:

[Tim the student]

I'd go for one of the Savages.

[Zerodefect]

"Sniper rifles"? LOL.

According to one of my .mil friends alot of sniper teams are actually useing semiautos alot more now. Ar10, Larue OBR like things in .308/7.62 since they really aren't reaching out farther than those rifles can handle too often.

Sure the super accurate bolt action is around, but for most purposes the semiauto works best, and when it deosn't.....airstrike.



But to awnser your question, FN makes a fine rifle. The previously mentioned FN rifle will do fine. 300wsm.

[Maverick223]

I would take a good look at the new Winchester Stealth. It offers a long heavy bbl with target crown, B&C Stock (w/ Al. bedding block), CRF reliability, and is available in .308Win. (and .223Rem.). Promises to be a great rifle. Otherwise Savage for the win.

:)

[joed]

All good choices in my opinion. I have a Win 70 Stealth, one of the last produced at the old plant, one of my favorites. This rifle is flawless and accurate. I have a 36x Weaver Target scope on it and enjoy shooting it.

I also have a Savage 10fp, but it is chambered in .223 Rem. I wouldn't hesitate to own one of these in .308 either. I've heard complaints about the stock on these but just laugh. The stock may be a little flimsy but this rifle will shoot 1/4" to 1/2" groups all day long. And I should care about the stock being flimsy?

Also wouldn't hesitate to own another Rem 700. I've had 3 and every one of them has been very accurate.

[Shadow Man]

Sure the super accurate bolt action is around, but for most purposes the semiauto works best, and when it deosn't.....airstrike.

Hehe. Thanks for a good laugh, that's so true.

Anyway, what do you plan on using the rifle for? "Sniper rifle"? Are you going to be spending long periods of time in a cramped hide, observing a target area for hours, relaying information up the chain before making one or two perfect shots, cold bore, while remaining undetected? Or are you looking for a highly accurate target rifle that you can take out to about 800 yards? Or are you simply looking for a super-accurate hunting rifle?

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

The third one - the extra barrel length helps velocity - the .308 is handicapped severely enough relative to other precision/long-range chamberings, without handicapping it further by stealing its velocity away with an absurdly silly 20" bbl length.

And Savage makes a fine fine stock now (even though you cannot tell from it's extreme ugliness).

But I really would need to know the details of your trade-in deal and budget, and what specific process and criteria you used to get down to those three, to really help you make a decision.

[praharin]

I've heard complaints about the stock on these but just laugh. The stock may be a little flimsy but this rifle will shoot 1/4" to 1/2" groups all day long. And I should care about the stock being flimsy?

I'm gonna go ahead an make a guess here. You don't shoot from many supported field positions do you? Once you start getting into complex positions, the stock can shift, touch the barrel and ruin your accuracy at long range.

There's a reason savage started using HS and McMillan stocks as a factory option.

[Maverick223]

Savage makes a fine fine stock now (even though you cannot tell from it's extreme ugliness)Their synthetic non-accustock is pretty darn craptastic though, but the accustock is pretty darn good for factory, even if it is ugly. I think they could make it a bit more comfortable, but I imagine they just want to keep it "universal" and don't want to make it bulky, making it less suitable for hunting (shooting off-hand).

:)

[Boba Fett]

I wouldn't worry about a 20" barrel length. If that's the rifle you want, 20" should be fine.


http://www.sniperschool.com/sniper-rifle-barrel-length/

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

If that's the rifle you want, 20" should be fine.

But that's circular logic - you DON'T want the 20", unless you're in a vacuum (no wind), for LONG range, which is what these are for. If they're not for LONG range, then there's no reason not to just grab a T/C Icon (or Tikka T3, or...) .308 with a thin barrel, to have a light rifle - it's guaranteed sub-MOA, and it will serve very very well to 300 or more yards. The ONLY reason to get a HEAVY rifle like that (even the 20" bull 'sniper / tactical' rifles are on the heavy side), is for LONG range, and at long range, you need all the BC & velocity you can get to buck the wind. My opinion, anyways. Now in a superior chambering, like 6.5-284, I could see going down *maybe* to 24" or even 22 as the shortest.

These 20" so-called "sniper" rifles are for police / swat type uses, where a typical shot would be 100-150 yards, and a very long shot is 300. That's fine in an urban setting, where you get out of the SWAT truck, and take the elevator to the roof - no need for a light rifle -the heavy barrel is not needed, but it doesn't hurt anything either. If your gun is gonna be heavy, my opinion is that it needs to be able to reach out there a long ways, or you're not getting anything for the tradeoff of extra weight.

Boba Fett, that article you linked to talks about barrel length affecting inherent / mechanical accuracy, which as we know, it doesn't - that's an article for newbs that think barrel length might affect actual mechanical accuracy. It most certainly DOES affect the more important consideration of PRACTICAL accuracy at longer ranges, because it minimizes the effect of your wind drift estimation error, and minimizes the effect of your ranging estimation error.

If the goal is just to look cool and be accurate to 200 yards, let's say, and haul it no further than from the pickup to the bench at the range, then by all means grab a 20" .308. But if the goal is to get the best tool for a specific job, then..... :) :p

And don't get me wrong - I am the *king* of liking short short handy rifles in the 16-18" range for walkin'-round and/or self-defense rifles - that's where short barrels have their place.

[snakeman]

icon warlord

[Boba Fett]

Boba Fett, that article you linked to talks about barrel length affecting inherent / mechanical accuracy, which as we know, it doesn't - that's an article for newbs that think barrel length might affect actual mechanical accuracy. It most certainly DOES affect the more important consideration of PRACTICAL accuracy at longer ranges, because it minimizes the effect of your wind drift estimation error, and minimizes the effect of your ranging estimation error.

If the goal is just to look cool and be accurate to 200 yards, let's say, and haul it no further than from the pickup to the bench at the range, then by all means grab a 20" .308. But if the goal is to get the best tool for a specific job, then.....

Quote from the article:

With a more manageable, compact, lighter, and more accurate rifle only requiring only 2 more minutes of angle at 920 yards, I see no reason to not cut down a barrel on a sniper rifle.

The range they shoot at is not a simple "from the truck to the bench" range. The range they shoot at is 100-900+ yards in varied terrain.

Forgot to post this link as well:
http://www.sniperschool.com/barrel-length-revisited/

To preface, 1 MOA accuracy was expected from the rifles. Many were box stock but all were Remington 700 variants. All shooting beyond 100 yards was on steel targets (except for the 150 yard high angle shoots and urban hide stuff). 6″ steel at 200yards and from 300 to 640 yards were the USMC silhouette shaped targets that are 9″wide x 12″high for the torso and a 3″ x 3″ head. The targets for the 740 and 920 were similarly shaped but were 18″w x 30″h overall with the 6″ head. While I have no pics of groups, all dopes for elevation were adjusted so that hits were mid-line or center of the target. On all the targets at all distances impacts within 1 MOA are pretty apparent. This school had a purposes and that purpose moved rather quickly everyday and taking the time to just prove this lone issue was not one of the main agendas. Therefore I am trying to recount accurate information as I had little time to write everything down for all the differing rifles and take exact pics that people want to see. However all of the dope and zero targets were accumulated and kept by each shooter who had 18″ barrel weapons provided by the school and 4 guys who brought their own guns cut their barrels while there and they developed dope prior to and after cutting the barrels. Ironically the only guys who cut their barrles on site, all shot the Black Hills ammo purchsed from the school. Everyone who shot the Federal ammo brought their own.

The schools standpoint which I echo is don’t talk about it, get out there and do it and prove it for yourself. We didn’t internet analyze the issue, we did it and the proof is in the puddin so to speak.


Look into the actual school, not just the articles. Find out what they do in the classes. Watch some of the videos.


http://www.sniperschool.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/920.jpg
http://www.sniperschool.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/1ridge.jpg
http://www.sniperschool.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/18inchbarrel02.jpg

[Dimis]

if your on a budget find a remington 700 SPS tactical they useualy go for under 700 and are very good rifles

[Maverick223]

I'm with Doc., the long barrel is well suited to long range due to the superior ballistics, making the shot much easier. I stand behind 24" as a minimum length for long range (750yds+), and prefer something longer. That said I also prefer something in a magnum chambering (with only a few exceptions, mainly the .260Rem.) at that range for like reasons.

:)

[ThePunisher'sArmory]

I like my 10FP Savage. Its the .223 model and I only paid $465 for it used. Shoots great and handles well. My next will be a 10FP in .308 and a choate stock

[DANNY243]

I saw a Marine Scout/Sniper show on the Military Channel where a sniper said the the Corp was going from a 22' to a 20' standard barrel, after addressing the proverbial question: Is the juice worth the squeez? To chime in on the thread topic, I am a big fan of Savage rifles. I own 3, going on 4 and I am a big fan of the new Accutrigger. Its easilly adjustable and breaks very crisp. The accuracy is usually sub MOA with handloads or Hornaday factory ammo. It won't win any beautys contest and the action on my old '06 is pretty stiff but it is a shooter. Accuracy and price is what always makes me buy Savages.

[DANNY243]

I should add that the new 110 actions are much smoother than on my pre-accutrigger '06.

[Evil One]

10FP
I have a savage that I built... Long action non accutrigger, 26" heavy barrel, .300 WM.
Most amazingly accurate rifle I have ever fired.


Jim

[Babarsac]

If I was going to build a .308 "sniper" rifle I would probably end up scoping one of the Enfield 2A's or Israeli Mausers. Those have a classic look that I just love.

[Bart B.]

I'd rather have a 20% more accurate rifle/cartridge that's easier to shoot accurate than one that bucked the wind 20% better for long range but is much harder to shoot accurately. I'd miss my point of aim a lot less with a 1 mph change in cross wind I didn't correct for.

Harder recoiling rifles move more off their point of aim when fired than those with less recoil. Stick with the .308 Win.

[rattletrap1970]

Bart, Yeah, But if you hit what you were aiming at the first time would it really matter that you moved off your aiming point more?

[Boba Fett]

I'd rather have a 20% more accurate rifle/cartridge that's easier to shoot accurate than one that bucked the wind 20% better for long range but is much harder to shoot accurately. I'd miss my point of aim a lot less with a 1 mph change in cross wind I didn't correct for.

Harder recoiling rifles move more off their point of aim when fired than those with less recoil. Stick with the .308 Win.


Bart, Yeah, But if you hit what you were aiming at the first time would it really matter that you moved off your aiming point more?


Some of that comes down to tactics and what you're trying to accomplish.

If you are trying to reach out long distances because you know you will need to, then you get the round and rifle appropriate to such circumstances. Perhaps it is more difficult to shoot and predict, but you still go with it because the easier more predictable rifle/round combination wont go that far.


But if you are in say an urban SWAT environment, it might be more important to have quick follow-up shots with a rifle and caliber you can easily predict the ballistics from.

[Maverick223]

I'd rather have a 20% more accurate rifle/cartridgeThere is no discernible difference in accuracy amongst different cartridges. At the very least it would take a benchrest shooter (with appropriate equipment), machine rest, or testing platform to tell any difference. There is no such thing as an inherently accurate cartridge, save for one that is loaded properly with good components (which are available for nearly all cartridges) only inherently accurate equipment (rifle, mounts, optics, et al) and riflemen.

:)

[Andrew Wyatt]

the savage 20" barrel should do fine out to 800-1000, since it has a 1/10 barrel twist. that'll stabilize heavier bullets just fine.

[Shadow Man]

the savage 20" barrel should do fine out to 800-1000, since it has a 1/10 barrel twist. that'll stabilize heavier bullets just fine.

Agreed. The XM-3 from IBA uses an 18" barrel, and performs quite well out to traditional distances expected from a 7.62x51mm. The hogs who tested them raved about the rifle, lighter, shorter, just as accurate...what's not to love?

[c5_nc]

Rem 700s are what pretty much every sniper shop starts with for a reason. SPS Tacs 20" are $550 (so are 26" Varmints) and the LTR20"/700PSS26" ~$850. No reason to accept less accuracy for the small $ difference on the Savage or Winchester70/FN/Howa route, even though those are very accurate as well. FNs are $599/699 from CDNN btw.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

the savage 20" barrel should do fine out to 800-1000, since it has a 1/10 barrel twist. that'll stabilize heavier bullets just fine.

Yes it will - and them spit them out so slowly that a snail will beat them to the target! :p

[Maverick223]

Rem 700s are what pretty much every sniper shop starts with for a reason.Correct, and that reason is aftermarket support and because it is what they are accustomed to work with.

No reason to accept less accuracy for the small $ difference on the Savage or Winchester70/FN/Howa route...Your joking right? A new (out of box) Remington that is as accurate (on average) as a Savage?...or Winchester?...or FN? Don't know about the Howa's accuracy but I would put my money on any of the others against a new Rem. 700. :confused: The new 700s aren't horrible (well some are), but they aren't the tack drivers that they used to be.

[JMatters]

Consider looking for a shot out 700 and put a GOOD barrel on it. You can always upgrade trigger and stock later. This way, you can spec the barrel, chamber, twist and profile. Yes, it'll be more expensive up front; but if you find a worn out 700 short action in whatever, you might get away with a real shooter for under $800. And you'd have the chance to get exactly the rifle you want.

[Shadow Man]

Yes it will - and them spit them out so slowly that a snail will beat them to the target!

You're kidding, right?

[baldeagle93]

Unless I missed something, I haven't seen a true budget for this project. That is a HUGE determining factor as to what to choose. If I were going to build a new rifle I would start with Rem 700 or Savage Model 12 (not sure if this comes in a synthetic stock, I couldn't find it). The Remington would have different offerings depending on what your budget is...you could start with the PSS and work your way down. I like the .308 Win flavor, especially for deer.

Reason a budget is vitally important is optics. As far as the $$$ go, there's not a real difference on cost you spend on rifle, but there is a HUGE difference on cost of optics! Depending if you want to put on a low end Nikon, BSA, Bushnell...step up to mid range Nikon, Leopold...or go all out with Leopold Mark4, Zeiss, or Swarvoski. The difference there is from $199-1,999...budget is very important.

And if budget isn't an issue let one of the best build it for you;

http://www.texasbrigadearmory.com/

http://www.deathfromafar.com/

[Maverick223]

You're kidding, right?No, a snail can actually beat it...but the snail gets really dizzy and ornery when you shoot it out of a .308 with a fast twist. :neener:

[Shadow Man]

No, a snail can actually beat it...but the snail gets really dizzy and ornery when you shoot it out of a .308 with a fast twist.

Hehe. Thanks Maverick.

[Maverick223]

Hehe. Thanks Maverick.Anytime, happy to give a good ribbin'. :D

[Bart B.]

Rattletrap comments:Bart, Yeah, But if you hit what you were aiming at the first time would it really matter that you moved off your aiming point more? Having shot 1000 yard matches around the country and a few places in other countries with the best long range competitors on this planet, we all strike that 10 inch X ring more often with the first shot using milder recoiling rifles/cartridges with high BC bullets than the heavier recoiling ones with bullets of the same BC. This is using well known sight settings for our ammo at a known range and excellent wind corrections needed.

[Andrew Wyatt]

Yes it will - and them spit them out so slowly that a snail will beat them to the target! :p
A common garden snail travels 0.0428331875 feet per second flat out. At 1000 yards, m118LR ball is travelling 1149 FPS when fired out of a 20" barrel. Your Information is incorrect.

[HoosierQ]

You gonna be a sniper?

[JDGray]

Love my 10FP, with the 20" barrel! Whats not to like about the accu-triggers? I removed the Glock thingy, and like mine now:p

[Extremely Pro Gun]

SOOOOOO, I got a Remington SPS Varmint 26". $350 new with a trade of my Benelli Nova!!!!!!

A friend of mine bought the SPS tactical and is changing the stock. I offered him $75 for the Hogue.

I am sticking a plain jane Redfield 3-9 x 50 on top while I save for a Leupold Mark 4 LR/T

http://www.remington.com/~/media/Images/Firearms/Centerfire/Model-700/Model-700-SPS-Varmint/700spsvarmint-prod.ashx?w=570&bc=ffffff

[Boba Fett]

Congrats!

Let us know how it shoots once you get it all setup :)

BE SURE TO POST PICS! :D

[JDGray]

Very Nice! but its a Varmit, well thats what my box said:neener: