CHRONY Err1 problem...


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You-Two
January 31, 2010, 01:33 AM
Finally got the chance to take out my new Chrony Beta Master out to the range today. Was looking forward to shooting some strings of a .45ACP load I'm working on. Since it was my first time with the Chrony I setup the target at 10 yds and shot about ten 5 shot strings with a .22lr rifle to get the hang of things. It worked great and the velocities were in line with the expected numbers. Great....so I go to shoot the .45 and get nothing but the Err1 message which means the first sensor is not detecting the shot. It seemed to register the shot by going to "0" then showing the "Err1" message.

I tried moving the Chrony closer and farther (from about 3' to 10') and shot all over inside the supports. I managed to get one shot to register out of about 50 (it showed 796 fps). I even tried marking the bullets with a sharpie like they say in the manual with no effect.

I just don't get it. How can it work perfectly (no errors) on about 100 rifle shots from a .22lr, AR in .223 and a .30-40 Krag. What is it about the .45 that would cause the errors? What can I do differently?

Time of day was about 2:30-3:30 on a mostly sunny day with a few clouds and I had it mounted on a steady camera tripod. The .45 ammo was factory Rem 230gr.

I appreciate any insight into what the problem may be!

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R.W.Dale
January 31, 2010, 02:16 AM
It was probably shooter position and or a change in lighting conditions.

You need to have the chrony absolutely level and square to the direction of fire

AND really key (I note you're firing in the afternoon) is that both sky screens be in the same lighting. I know at our range about that time of day a chrony in just the right or err wrong position will have one screen in sunlight and one in shadow. In this situation my chrony won't work at all.

You also mention sunny day. Were you using the skyscreens ?

You-Two
January 31, 2010, 02:24 AM
Yes...I had the skyscreens in place using the longer rods like the manual says. It is just really confusing to me that it would work perfectly with every single rifle bullet I shot over it, then absolutely horribly with the pistol rounds. Conditions for both were exactly the same! :banghead:

Next time I'll try to do it around mid-day and bring another pistol caliber to try. And I'll bring a level, didn't think about that one until reading some other posts on here earlier!

Thanks for the tips!

mxl
January 31, 2010, 09:05 AM
In addition to being sure it is set parallel with line if the bullet's path I'd try moving it several feet further away. The muzzle blast from the .45 may well be causing your problem.

I painted a bright color on the 4 wires that hold up the light diffusor in the area the bullet is supposed to pass thru and aim in the central area. I'd have to go look at the instruction manual but I seem to recall the area begins 4 inches up from each sensor and goes up to something like 8 inches. If your bullet passes above or below you get an error.

You-Two
January 31, 2010, 11:17 AM
Thanks...I'll try that too!

Galil5.56
January 31, 2010, 12:30 PM
Not to be smart alecky, but your SC problem, and a few others even worse I have personally experienced with SC products, and they all went away when I got a ProChrono Digital. I got the same err message and others, and it made using the SC a PITA, wasted ammo, my time... Any chance you can still return it?

My ProChrono Digital is so superior to the two SC's I had with regard to reliability, ease of use, screen size, and accuracy... I can hardly make my PCD NOT record a shot, where as I have gone complete strings of shots not even register (not even an err message) on the SC just like you had happen. No operator error involved, fully unfolded on a tripod, diffusers correctly used, "good" light, fresh alkaline batteries, clean "eyes", 15 feet in front... By contrast I take the PCD out of the box, add a battery and diffusers, slide the on switch on, and record 100% of the shots accurately with no fuss or drama. Also, I use the PCD at 45 deg angles/any angle I've tired not level, and when checked against being level the results are the same in the same light... The key is to shoot the same height/parallel over both "eyes" for best accuracy, which is easy to do with the one piece rigid PCD, not the folding SC.

I wish I could offer you a working solution and fix, but not using them was the only fix that worked in my case. I Really and sincerely hope the issues you are having get better, but in my actual experience they only get progressively worse.

Good luck!

MinnMooney
January 31, 2010, 12:41 PM
from mxl :
The muzzle blast from the .45 may well be causing your problem.
I'd try moving it several feet further away.

That's exactly what I'd try, also. The muzzle blast is probably the culprit. I start out at 10' and if I get "err1", I move to 12' and even 14' is not unheard of.

If you're a stickler for nearly exact muzzle velocity figures then use one of the various ballistic software programs and plug in slightly higher & higher M.V.s than what you recorded until the M.V. at 12'-14' is exactly the recorded value.

ants
January 31, 2010, 12:51 PM
The muzzle blast from the .45 may well be causing your problem.
Yep.
The muzzle blast is probably the culprit.
Yep.

Don't worry too much about square or parallel or level.
As you found with 22lr, the chrono works perfectly. Don't dump it.
Your 45acp muzzle blast is much greater than 22lr.
5 to 10 feet from muzzle? No, it's 15 feet or more.

R.W.Dale
January 31, 2010, 12:57 PM
Don't worry too much about square or parallel or level.

I disagree as it's very important to get readings and most importantly ACCURATE readings. If the chrony isn't level in relation to the bullets path the scyscreens are effectively closer togeather and will yield erroneous readings

ants
January 31, 2010, 02:26 PM
I understand krochus completely.

But at a distance of 15 feet from the instrument, an error in angle of incidence won't amount to anything.

I did some quick measuring. Given the distance between the rods on my chrony, standing 15' away from the unit, my shooting angle can only be off by 2 degrees max at the absolute worst angle and still record over the sensors. For every degree, it increases the effective distance between the screens by 0.01 inches. An increase of 0.01 inch reduces the recorded velocity by 0.1 feet per second. Ain't enough to make a difference.

Absolutely nothing wrong with being totally consistent as krochus suggests, and he knows he is right. Each of us considers the task at hand, and makes his/her own personal choices.

R.W.Dale
January 31, 2010, 02:32 PM
my shooting angle can only be off by 2 degrees max at the absolute worst angle.I disagree if you arranged your chrony to a degree of precision within 2 degrees to the direction of fire it would be a marvel of precision on the spot servayance. It's very easy to set up a chrony and it look level when in reality it won't even float a bubble on a whiskey stick.

Steve C
January 31, 2010, 02:57 PM
I disagree if you arranged your chrony to a degree of precision within 2 degrees to the direction of fire it would be a marvel of precision on the spot servayance. It's very easy to set up a chrony and it look level when in reality it won't even float a bubble on a whiskey stick.

Mathematically examined, there is little difference in measurement due to small angles of cant of the chronograph. The distance between the sky screens on my chrono is pretty typical at 12". Here is an illustration of the difference in measurement at 5 and 10 degree angles both of which are rather extreme enough to be noticeable by eye.

The formula for the % difference would be %Dif = (1-cosign(angle))X100

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=114542&stc=1&d=1264967810

Kernel
January 31, 2010, 06:11 PM
0.1 feet per second... Ain't enough to make a difference.
The angle is meaningless. A chrony isn't that accurate, anyway. There's not a hobby chrony on the market that I'd trust for more than three significant digits. It's like a calculator with 9 digits after the decimal point. Not all the numbers in the display always mean something.

1858
January 31, 2010, 08:01 PM
Steve C, while I agree that a 5% cant has a negligible effect on velocity accuracy (bullet path length increases by 0.05" if the sensors are 12" apart), I would contend that the actual bullet path gets longer rather than shorter as shown in your figure. In other words, recorded velocities would be slower (by a tiny margin) than actual velocities. Just a thought!

:)

1858
January 31, 2010, 08:16 PM
Not to be smart alecky, but your SC problem, and a few others even worse I have personally experienced with SC products, and they all went away when I got a ProChrono Digital.

Interestingly enough I had the opposite experience. I've been using a Shooting Chrony Beta Master for the last 18 months and a few months ago decided to buy a CED M2 due to outstanding reviews. I was starting to get frequent Err messages from the Chrony so figured an upgrade was in order. The CED costs twice as much as the Chrony and is a very nice unit. However, the velocity values for my favorite .308 match load as recorded by the Chrony are around 75 to 100 fps FASTER than values for the same load obtained using the CED. The problem is, when I use the two velocities in Exbal to generate ballistic data (comeups, holdover etc), the Chrony average velocity and subsequent comeups seem to match real-world results at 200, 300, 600 and 800 yards significantly better than data generated using the CED average velocity. This is alarming to say the least particularly since the CED sensors are 2' apart (1' on the Chrony), and the internal clock is much faster (compared to the Chrony) therefore better accuracy would be expected from the CED.

:)

ole farmerbuck
January 31, 2010, 08:27 PM
I used my Master Beta today. It showed around 1200 for the 22lr but when using the 45, it showed about 3500. I knew i shouldnt have used those large rifle primers in the 45! Dont know what was wrong and it was too cold to mess with it.

Galil5.56
January 31, 2010, 09:05 PM
1858,

One of the "and a few other (problems) even worse" was that one of my SC read 40-80 fps + faster compared to my PCD. I have mentioned this several times on this forum, and read of others experiencing the same issue.

smokey262
January 31, 2010, 11:02 PM
I used my Master Beta today. It showed around 1200 for the 22lr but when using the 45, it showed about 3500.

How were the groups out of that 45? :)

1SOW
January 31, 2010, 11:14 PM
Wonder what your Red Rider BB gun would show-even 5 degs off level?:evil:

Steve C
January 31, 2010, 11:53 PM
I would contend that the actual bullet path gets longer rather than shorter as shown in your figure.

The illustration is a real representation of the istance between sky screens and how the relationship changes to level horizontal path over them. The distance relative to the screens will never exceed 12" as that is a constant fixed distance. Any deviation of the chrono can only shorten the relative distance. A change in angle of the bullet path can increase the distance the bullet travels so your scenario would be correct correct.

twofifty
February 1, 2010, 12:31 AM
Hey You-Two, the upside is that in spite of all that ammo you didn't shoot the darn thing!

I have access to 2 SCs and they don't give me the same measurements.
I wonder how much more these instruments would cost if they all read the same, +/- 1%.

1858
February 1, 2010, 02:45 AM
one of my SC read 40-80 fps + faster compared to my PCD. I have mentioned this several times on this forum, and read of others experiencing the same issue.

That's good to know. I'll need to try other calibers/loads and validate velocities and the resulting comeups at different distances before I can say for sure which chronograph is the more "accurate".

Steve C, I don't agree. If the chronograph is canted but the bullet path is horizontal (referenced to a bubble level) over the sensors, and the sensing "planes" that the bullet passes through are 12" apart (typical), then the bullet path is longer than 12". It has to be since the distance between the sensing planes is X (12"), the cant angle is theta, and the bullet path is R. R = X/theta where theta is < 1, therefore R > X.

:)

MAXM
February 1, 2010, 08:22 AM
By Galil5.56: "Not to be smart alecky, but your SC problem, and a few others even worse I have personally experienced with SC products, and they all went away when I got a ProChrono Digital. I got the same err message and others, and it made using the SC a PITA, wasted ammo, my time... Any chance you can still return it?"

I had exactly the same problems (Err1, absurd speed readings, no readings at all, etc. etc.) with two Chrony. Tried all tricks, no way. No problems at all with four ProChrono, except when it was raining and I tried to use my ProChrono with strips of transparent tape over the sensor windows. Rain drops over the tape gave me no/false readings.

GP100man
February 1, 2010, 08:50 AM
I got a F1 for Christmas, good tool!! tiny bit touchy though!!

I set mine up then take a peice of cardboard 3ftX2ft & cover it all up so it`s all in the shade .
This is when I get best results.

I saw 1 mounted in a white 5gal. bucket for diffusing the lite.http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx110/GP100man/th_102_0177.jpg

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