10mm reload: crescent dimple, bulge@bottom


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rubbermaidCOP
January 31, 2010, 01:43 PM
I want to start reloading. 10mm ammo shortage and expense is the reason. I recovered first-shot cases of Remington 170 grain "High Velocity." The Glock 20 (no mods) imprints a crescent dimple in the case, and the bottom of the case has bulged slightly (visible to my eye).
...If I reload to Norma specs (165-170 grain; 1400 fps; 700 lb/ft):
...Can these cases be used to reload?
...How many reloads might I expect to process for these cases?
...Should I buy new brass to start over?--manufacturer?

If this info is already posted, please forgive me.
I searched but found nothing after several minutes.
THR members have the best information and the best behavior that I have observed--I am honored to be here!
First post.
Thank you.

If you enjoyed reading about "10mm reload: crescent dimple, bulge@bottom" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
JimKirk
January 31, 2010, 01:48 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=501632

Jimmy K

ReloaderFred
January 31, 2010, 01:54 PM
Welcome to THR!

If you're getting bulged cases, then your load is too hot. The original Norma load was a 200 grain bullet at an honest 1,200 fps, which is above SAAMI specifications these days, but you have to consider that there is better pressure testing equipment now than there was when the 10mm was first introduced. Even Norma backed off from that load shortly after it was introduced.

My suggestion is to buy some good loading manuals and work up your loads until you get near what you want. Badly bulged brass is weakened at the point of the bulge, and even if you size it back to original shape, that spot has still been stressed. If the case ends up in the chamber in the same orientation as the first time it was fired, it can blow out at that point. When a high pressure round like the 10mm blows out the case, it can set off the next round in the magazine (I've seen this happen), it blows the magazine out of the mag well, and in some guns, blows the grips off the frame.

I suggest scrapping the bulged brass and starting over with new brass, and work up the load in increments, using current data. I get multiple reloads from my 10mm brass, but I don't count them, since I have a lot of brass in that caliber. Velocities vary greatly with barrel lengths, etc. The same load in one of my 10mm pistols will produce a different velocity on another of my 10mm pistols.

Hope this helps.

Fred

bds
January 31, 2010, 01:58 PM
10mm is a very high pressure load.

If you plan on reusing the cases, I strongly recommend you get a better supported barrel since resizing the bulge will only continue to stress and weaken the case that may lead to potential rupture of the case at the bulge.

Better safe than KaBoom.

In addition to replacement G20 barrels ($99), you can also get conversion barrels to shoot 40S&W and 357Sig in your G20 (for cheaper, less pressure reloads).

http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=943
http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=951
http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=948

Runningman
January 31, 2010, 04:06 PM
I want to start reloading. 10mm ammo shortage and expense is the reason. I recovered first-shot cases of Remington 170 grain "High Velocity." The Glock 20 (no mods) imprints a crescent dimple in the case, and the bottom of the case has bulged slightly (visible to my eye).
...If I reload to Norma specs (165-170 grain; 1400 fps; 700 lb/ft):
...Can these cases be used to reload?
...How many reloads might I expect to process for these cases?
...Should I buy new brass to start over?--manufacturer?
I bought a 1911 Colt Delta 5" barrel back in 1989 or so when ever they 1st came out. In 1991 I bought my 1st chronograph. The 10 MM was one of the 1st rounds I ran through it. Since I had tested some of the original 10MM ammunition back than and have notes on it, thought this might be interesting to some.

Norna 170 grain JHP factory load averaged 1339 FPS.
Norma 200 grain factory averaged ............1109 FPS.
Hornady 170 grain JHP averaged ..............1249 FPS.

Later I ran some Winchester 175 grain silvertips 1224 FPS.

The Norma 170 grain 1339 FPS load was hot in the Colt Delta. So were some of my hand loads. Eventually I learned not to try and make the 10mm into a 41 Magnum. I actually blew two cases open trying to do so. Never did find the extractors. By about 1800 rounds the Colt 1911 Delta was done with very loose and had a cracked frame. :banghead:

My most accurate handload at the time was using a 170 Nosler with 9.0 of IMR 800 X.

I replaced the Delta with a Glock 29. Must say it has held up well.

My advice forget about Norma specs they didn't actually clock 1400 FPS in the old days. Don't try to do 1400 FPS with a 165 -170 grain bullet in a 10mm.

For max to near max loads out of the current manuals use only new cases. Save used cases for milder loads. Case life more or less depends on how much pressure you run it at.

jfh
January 31, 2010, 04:24 PM
I've had several 10mm pistols, and began reloading early for them. I even still have some of the original Norma ammo around, to re-test every now and then.
The ammo is hot--every hot. I used to try to load to 1990-era recipes and shoot them in a SA Armory Omega--that had a Peters Stahl (Steel) top end, with dual extractors. The high end loads always resulted in sticky extraction.

I settled in shooting 200-gr. LTC reloads that loafed along, barely over 900 FPS, to meet Major for club competition. Since then, in recent reloading, I have gone to a 170-180 LTC, which I now shoot from an EAA Witness or a Kimber ST II. The 180s run up to 1100 FPS or so when shot over WSF AA#5, or some other powders--and don't hammer the gun.

I have a fair amount of used brass from factory ammo, but I have always preferred using Starline 10mm brass, which I bought new. Loaded medium, the cases last more than ten reloads; loaded hot, I've seen splitting after five reloads.

I also used to shoot a Glock 20--until it blew up. If your Glock is producing bulged cases, and you want to load hot, you might want to buy an aftermarket barrel.

Jim H.

rubbermaidCOP
February 1, 2010, 01:26 AM
Read it. Thanks, Jimmy K!

GooseGestapo
February 1, 2010, 01:34 AM
Ditto what Runningman said.

I had an S&W 1006 and did see near 1,400fps from some of the Norma ammo, but couldn't duplicate it due to lack of powder. The Smith was built like a tank and handled anything I fed it even down to sub-.40sw loads.

My favorite load is a now over recommended max (but was at max when developed, Accurate Arms reduced their max when Glock M20 came out). I blew out the base of 3 of the first 5 rounds of the 200gr Hornady XTP and AA#7. Current max load is about 1.2gr lower, and was found to be safe, but not ideal for the Glock.

My preferred load for the Glock (before I sold it) was the old favorite of a 170-180gr bullet and 10.0gr of BlueDot. Gets 1,200fps +/- and will do anything you need a 10mm to do.

I parted with both 10's, needing a good pistol for NRA Semi-Auto 1500 competiton. (S&W PPC-9 "Limited")

I still have a good .40S&W which is "sufficiently wicked" for my needs. I've killed more deer now with the .40 than the 10mm, and can't really tell much difference. Hence, the .40 is sufficient...... I can't even remember when I loaded anything besides a 180gr TC cast bullet over either Bullseye or BlueDot...... Don't even see need for a jacketed bullet....

rubbermaidCOP
February 1, 2010, 01:35 AM
Welcome to THR!

If you're getting bulged cases, then your load is too hot. The original Norma load was a 200 grain bullet at an honest 1,200 fps, which is above SAAMI specifications these days, but you have to consider that there is better pressure testing equipment now than there was when the 10mm was first introduced. Even Norma backed off from that load shortly after it was introduced.

My suggestion is to buy some good loading manuals and work up your loads until you get near what you want. Badly bulged brass is weakened at the point of the bulge, and even if you size it back to original shape, that spot has still been stressed. If the case ends up in the chamber in the same orientation as the first time it was fired, it can blow out at that point. When a high pressure round like the 10mm blows out the case, it can set off the next round in the magazine (I've seen this happen), it blows the magazine out of the mag well, and in some guns, blows the grips off the frame.

I suggest scrapping the bulged brass and starting over with new brass, and work up the load in increments, using current data. I get multiple reloads from my 10mm brass, but I don't count them, since I have a lot of brass in that caliber. Velocities vary greatly with barrel lengths, etc. The same load in one of my 10mm pistols will produce a different velocity on another of my 10mm pistols.

Hope this helps.

Fred
Thank you, ReloaderFred! I was surprised at the bulged cases of the Rem 170 HV, as it had no where near the kick of .357 Magnum from a 5-6" barreled revolver. The Rem 170 loads felt slightly hotter than my +P9mm from a Glock19. I will get loading manuals; I'll trash the brass--I do not want a KaBoom just yet! ;-); Starline brass seems to be universally accepted as quality stuff; an aftermarket barrel seems to be a "must-have" as well. Thanks to your input, I feel confident that I am off to a successful and safe start! Thanks!

rubbermaidCOP
February 1, 2010, 01:42 AM
10mm is a very high pressure load.

If you plan on reusing the cases, I strongly recommend you get a better supported barrel since resizing the bulge will only continue to stress and weaken the case that may lead to potential rupture of the case at the bulge.

Better safe than KaBoom.

In addition to replacement G20 barrels ($99), you can also get conversion barrels to shoot 40S&W and 357Sig in your G20 (for cheaper, less pressure reloads).

http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=943
http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=951
http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=948
I appreciate your suggestion for a "barrel with better support about the cartridge base". Any ideas where I can get a high-carbon steel barrel (not stainless)? Stainless is too soft. I searched the links but no options other than S/S. Someone said the Glock OEM barrels of late have better support...???...can't find anything to buy one--gotta love Tennifer! Thanks!

bds
February 1, 2010, 02:14 AM
Any ideas where I can get a high-carbon steel barrel (not stainless)? Stainless is too soft. I searched the links but no options other than S/S. Someone said the Glock OEM barrels of late have better support...???...can't find anything to buy one--gotta love Tennifer! Thanks!

Most after market barrels are made from stainless stock.

If you want newer OEM (original equipment manufacture) Glock barrels, be sure to ask the seller to verify the amount of unsupported chamber area of the barrel to be Gen3 or better. OEM Glock barrels are not pricey either ($150 average):
http://www.topglock.com/item/42966_Glock_Barrels__Choke_Tubes_GLOCK_BARREL_G20_10MM.aspx
http://www.topglock.com/category/1649-Glock_Barrels.aspx

Here's a comparison picture JimKirk posted:
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=113904&d=1264288861

Here's a comparison picture of aftermarket 45ACP barrel on the left to the OEM "older less supported Glock barrel" on the right. FYI, My new G27 bought last year has virtually the same amount of support as my Lone Wolf barrel.
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/SupportedVsUnsupportedGlock.jpg

rubbermaidCOP
February 1, 2010, 02:21 AM
The "1998" picture shows the exact area where my brass bulged!--Thanks!
Gen3...OOHRAH!

bds reply:
Most after market barrels are made from stainless stock.

If you want newer OEM (original equipment manufacture) Glock barrels, be sure to ask the seller to verify the amount of unsupported chamber area of the barrel to be Gen3 or better. OEM Glock barrels are not pricey either ($150 average): http://www.topglock.com/category/164...k_Barrels.aspx

Here's a comparison picture JimKirk posted:

loadedround
February 1, 2010, 06:07 PM
For those with bulged bases in 10 mm and 40 S&W, Redding has just come out with a base sizing die called the GR-Rx Base Sizing Die. I can't post pics but go to their website and check out this neat die. It was originally designed for the 4 S&W shot in the Glock, but after a call to Redding this morning, was advised that it will work perfectly with the longer 10mm case. Redding told me that the cases still have to be run through a full legth resizing die afterwards. BTW, this die is now available in carbide and MidwayUSA will be stocking it. Redding is shipping these dies this week. :)

rubbermaidCOP
February 3, 2010, 12:50 AM
Gonna go with Top Glock's OEM 3rd gen barrel.
Rockwell Hardness:
Stainless, hardened: ............40-50
Tennifer treated G20 barrel: 64 :-)
Thanks for all of ya'lls input! It really helped.
Greg

rubbermaidCOP
February 3, 2010, 12:55 AM
For those with bulged bases in 10 mm and 40 S&W, Redding has just come out with a base sizing die called the GR-Rx Base Sizing Die. I can't post pics but go to their website and check out this neat die. It was originally designed for the 4 S&W shot in the Glock, but after a call to Redding this morning, was advised that it will work perfectly with the longer 10mm case. Redding told me that the cases still have to be run through a full legth resizing die afterwards. BTW, this die is now available in carbide and MidwayUSA will be stocking it. Redding is shipping these dies this week. :)
I'm gonna get this too!
Man, my shopping cart is getting heavy!
Thanks! (Better than Christmas!)
Greg

bds
February 3, 2010, 01:10 AM
If you get the Gen3 barrel, you may not need the Redding die.

First try the new barrel and measure your spent cases to see if they need further sizing.

Tell us how it works out as you may not be the only one here with this problem (although I don't shoot 10mm).

JimKirk
February 3, 2010, 01:12 AM
loadedround
You didn't happen to get a price for the Carbide G-Rx do you ?

Jimmy K

bds
February 3, 2010, 02:59 AM
Lee Precision is releasing a new kit to "push through" size bulged cases like Redding G-RX using Lee Factory Crimp Die.

Comes in 380ACP, 40S&W, 10mm, 41AE, 45ACP, 45GAP, 45WinMag and $19.98.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=502850

loadedround
February 3, 2010, 10:36 AM
loadedround
You didn't happen to get a price for the Carbide G-Rx do you ?

Jimmy K
JimKirk:
Yes I did, these are Redding's list prices and MidwayUSA prices are at least 20% cheaper(check thier website).
#96150 Carbide Push Thru Die 99.00
#96010 Plastic Bottle Adapter 12.60
Part numbers are Redding #'s, and MidwayUSA does list a non carbide Puuh Thru Die at approx. 1/2 the Carbide Die price fyi..

ReloaderFred
February 3, 2010, 02:32 PM
You can do the same thing with a Lee Factory Crimp Die of the proper caliber. Just take the guts out of the die and use the ram from one of their bullet sizing dies to push a lubed, rimless, case all the way through the die.

Hope this helps.

Fred

MikeS.
February 3, 2010, 08:52 PM
Thanks guys, I love a good 10mm thread. I started loading for it late last year. I bought a 10mm carbine conversion unit for a Glock lower and ran into the same lack of ammo and high prices.

Fortunately I've owned a S&W 10mm since 1992 and had a good supply of brass.

JimKirk
February 3, 2010, 08:54 PM
Loadedround

Dang!

Jimmy K

bds
February 3, 2010, 10:46 PM
Loadedround:
Dang!

That's $112!

Lee's bulge buster kit + FCD ($20+$16=$36) maybe a more economical option (and the case collector looks better than a chopped off 2 liter bottle).

If you already have the FCD, then it's a $20 fix.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=502850

ny32182
February 4, 2010, 11:00 AM
I just got the regular G-Rx die from Midway for $37; it did the trick on the base sizing as advertized (.40 in my case, but I'm sure it would work fine on 10mm as well).

Shortly thereafter I learned they are coming out with a carbide version... just a few weeks too late for me unfortunately, but it is listed as "coming soon" at Midway for $70.

loadedround
February 4, 2010, 11:39 AM
Ny32182, Redding assured me that this die will work just as well with the 10 mm case as with the 40 S&W, same outside case diameter..

JimKirk
February 4, 2010, 06:06 PM
Works for the 357 SIG case too!

Jimmy K

LeonCarr
February 27, 2010, 12:44 PM
Judging by the photos, I guess Glock has been secretly increasing the case head support on the factory .40 barrels. Bout time.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

Glock20
February 27, 2010, 01:44 PM
I've been using the Redding GRx die for 10mm for some time without any problems. Even with a Gen3 barrel, full length resizing alone did not always remove the "very slight" bulge I would occasionally see. With the GRx they always pass the case gauge after pushed through.
The Imperial sizing wax that comes with the die works great, but I usually use Hornady's One-Shot lube.

If anyone has used Lee's version, I'd like to hear how it worked for them.

ny32182
February 27, 2010, 03:19 PM
I believe that for my next batch of .40 I will run them all through a regular carbide die first; I figure with a 3rd gen barrel that will put 95% of them able to pass a gage test just from the regular resize. The ones that don't, I will set them aside, and when I have enough of them stacked up, I will run them through the G-Rx die.

If you enjoyed reading about "10mm reload: crescent dimple, bulge@bottom" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!