S&W Model 10 Revolvers, and +P


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Oyeboten
January 31, 2010, 04:35 PM
Was there some point in the production of the S&W Model 10 that the Cylinder and or other parts were made stronger?

Or, would all Model 10s be the same, far as their rating or ability to handle +P Ammunition?

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rcmodel
January 31, 2010, 04:46 PM
S&W was heat treating cylinders & such way before there were Model numbers stamped inside the frame.

Anything made after WWII/1950'ish should be good to go with +P.

They had .38 Spl Hi-Speed back then that was way hotter then +P is today.

rc

Oyeboten
January 31, 2010, 05:25 PM
Thank you rc!

earlthegoat2
January 31, 2010, 05:27 PM
I think that S&W says you can use +P in any K frame with a model number.

Confederate
January 31, 2010, 06:11 PM
As fas as I know, you can even have your Model 10 rechambered for .357. K-frames are K-frames and as far as I know, the diminsions and heat treat of the M10 and M19 are the same.

So an M10 should be able to easily handle +P.

armoredman
January 31, 2010, 06:13 PM
I love my 10-8, but it gets only a cylinderful or two of +P for POA/POI check during range trips. The rest is range ammo, don't wanna wear out my favorite revolver.

Oyeboten
January 31, 2010, 07:11 PM
I've wondered too about what differences there would have been, in the original New York Highway Patrol Model 10s which were chambered in .357 Magnum...from a comparable Model 10 of the same period, in .38 Special.

These were the working prototype for the Model 13, far as I can tell.

Thence, what difference is there, really, metalurgically, between the Model 13, and, the Model 10 of the same peiod?


Did the Model 13 use a different Alloy or different Heat Treatment of the Cylinder, Barrel, Frame?


Anyway...no intention of ever feeding my Model 10 any steady diet of other than Standard Pressure rounds of one sort or another, but, being as I have some aspirations/experiments in mind for re-loading, I have been brooding on trying some slightly peppier loads ( ie: approximations of the old, so called "FBI Load") as a now-and-then or SD Carry-Ammo thing.


So...just wishing to understand it all a little better...

John Wayne
January 31, 2010, 07:14 PM
I shoot +P in my model 10-7 pencil barrel on a fairly regular basis. Most of the stuff that's marked +P really isn't that hot nowadays.

Does anyone have more info on getting the gun rechambered to .357?

Oyeboten
January 31, 2010, 07:24 PM
Hi John Wayne,


You'd asked -


Does anyone have more info on getting the gun rechambered to .357?


My own naive opinion, which no one asked for of course, is that this is a question which would best await quite definite further information about what is known of the respective Cylinder and Frame strengths or durability under these conditions, of the Model 10, and, the Model 13, say.


I myself have had fantasies of re-fitting a Model 10 to chamber .38 Super Cartridge, using full Moon Clips.


This would be a wonderful set up far as my own tastes go.


I have not found the answers I want though, as for how well the Cylinder, Barrel-to-Frame, and Frame would take it.


Probably, a Model 13 could be modified for the accepting .38 Super Cartridge, and handle it alright.


People might say "Why bother?"


But they would not understand the value and meaning of fun, uniqueness, and, imagination, as configuring in motive and reason, so...


Anyway...

John Wayne
January 31, 2010, 07:27 PM
Oyeboten, that's what I was curious about. I have heard of revolvers being chambered for larger cartridges, but more often than not, it is with guns that are notoriously overbuilt, like the Ruger Blackhawk.

I think I'll just start a new thread so this one doesn't get off track. But if anyone has information, PM me! Thanks.

joed
January 31, 2010, 07:32 PM
As fas as I know, you can even have your Model 10 rechambered for .357. K-frames are K-frames and as far as I know, the diminsions and heat treat of the M10 and M19 are the same.

So an M10 should be able to easily handle +P.

Now that's dangerous. The K frame .357's are beefed up K frames and they don't even hold up that well if fed a constant diet of .357 ammo. I don't remember what is beefed up anymore but I believe it has something to do with the yoke and crane.

All guns can shoot hotter loads then what they were designed for, that's a safety factor that's built in. But why wear the gun out early.

I agree that the .38 Spl can be loaded hotter then present loads, just look in an older reloading manual.

336A
January 31, 2010, 07:36 PM
Any S&W Model 10 produced after 1957 is absolutely safe for +P ammunition, which coincidently is the same year that model numbers were being affixed. Most normal people would go broke or wear out their hand before they wore out a S&W M10 shooting +P ammo. A Model 10 can not be rechambered to .357.Though the two models look alike the M10 and M13 did in fact go through different heat treating. Those M10 that are mentioned above were prototypes of the soon to be released M13. Both models use the same frame but you can be rest assured that S&W used a different heat treatment on them and a longer .357 cylinder as well.

Oyeboten
January 31, 2010, 07:42 PM
Hi 336a,



I woulda kinda thought so...


Lol...


I've wondered though.


As for me, in my wondering, I'd never modify a normal Revolver for a hotter Cartridge designation/kind unless I were confident it would be alright to do, and, even then, I would only shoot the hotter round occasionally, or, reserve it for Carry, and merely download said round for Target Practice diet.

I LOVE full Moon Clips, so, I brood...


Of course, a .38 Special Cartridge could be carefully loaded to be on par or exceed usual .357 performance, fas as if one had a Revolver which would handle it with impunity...even as Elmer Keith and others once were doing with the N Frame S&W or Colt New Service Revolvers chambered in .38 Special, which experiments and fun preceded and nurtured the advent of the .357.


Just rambling...

The Bushmaster
January 31, 2010, 08:51 PM
The thought of running .357 magnums through my three Mod 10, to me, would be sacrilege. That's why I have a mod 19 for. and if you look at the difference between these two revolvers you wouldn't have to ask that question...

Oro
January 31, 2010, 10:20 PM
I have no trouble using +p in any post early 1920's M&P/model 10. The heat treatment started around, I think s/n 316,xxx and .38 special limits of the time are greater than the .38+p limits of today. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison of ammo from then to now. Changes have occurred.

It has always been my understanding that the cylinders I think also barrels of the 13/19 and proto-13 10's were of different spec steel and heat treatment. I would not trust a .357 in any converted S&W .38 Special, including a Heavy Duty or Outdoorsman. It's especially wise to check older models of those guns to see that the chambers were not lengthened for that purpose; it was not uncommon at all.

1911Tuner
February 1, 2010, 07:11 AM
K-frame Smith & Wesson revolver are my first love, and several of them occupy an honored place in my battery. They're exceptionally fine revolvers. However...they're not exceptionally strong revolvers.

Back in the day, when .357 ammunition was really "magnum" level ammunition, the only guns chambered for it were large framed...or N-frames as they've come to be known.

For very good reason.

That ammunition can be duplicated with 15 grains of new 2400, or 15.5 grains of Hercules 2400 if you have an older lot of it...but be warned. It's HOT. I have strong reservations with using it in the L-frames, and fire it only sparingly. It's an N-frame only load, and I have backed that off to 14.5 grains with the new Alliant 2400 just to be on the safe side...and jacketed bullets of the same mass should be backed off to 14.

I strongly suspect that the K-frame .357s were directly responsible for the castrated 158-grain .357 cartridge that we have today...which is rated at 1135 fps and normally chronographs at about 1100. The old stuff and the handloaded equivalent would break 1450 from a 6-inch barrel...rated at 1510 from an 8.375 tube.

If you happen to run into an older lot of .357 that's loaded with a lead SWC...be warned that firing it in a K-frame is courting disaster. Probably not on the first round, and probably not in a hundred...but one day for sure. When the Model 19 was introduced, the wisdom of the day was "Use .38s for practice and .357s for business."

For very good reason.

Just because the gun is roll-marked ".357 CTG" doesn't mean that it's a Ruger New Model Blackhawk unless it is a Blackhawk. Proceed with all due caution...and be gentle with that little K-frame. Treat it like a lady, and she'll be good to you.

rcmodel
February 1, 2010, 02:58 PM
Does anyone have more info on getting the gun rechambered to .357? Very bad idea, because:

Every school boy knows by now the K-Frame Magnums had problems with cracked forcing cones, right?

Well, the Model 10 has a shorter cylinder and longer barrel shank then a Model 19 or 66, or other K-Frame Magnum.

That makes the forcing cone / unsupported section of the barrel shank even longer & less supported then those on the Magnum guns.
They even have way more unsupported barrel shank then a J-Frame .38 or .357.

Don't do it, because it's a bad idea, because the .38 Spl. K-Frame was not designed with Magnum length cylinders or shortened forcing cones!

rc

cyclopsshooter
February 1, 2010, 03:13 PM
I myself have had fantasies of re-fitting a Model 10 to chamber .38 Super Cartridge, using full Moon Clips.

COOL!

SaxonPig
February 1, 2010, 05:31 PM
Again... again... and again with the +P.

Some say post-war is OK. Some say model number marked is OK. Some say only if the gun company specifically says it's OK.

All this means nobody saying these things knows the real scoop on +P.

I do. I have researched this matter in depth.

Factory +P is loaded well below maximum allowable pressure for the 38 Special. Any quality made gun in good condition should have no trouble with +P. Some think +P is hot. It's not. A 125@925 FPS is hardly hot. Or even warm. My personal carry load uses the same 125 JHP pushed to a clocked 1,100 FPS from my 2" guns (J and K frame S&Ws). After many hundreds of rounds, no problems to report.

Personally, I stick with light loads in guns made before 1930 because I know that up until then metal tempering was an imprecise science and failures are known. But even that date is just my own creation. I suspect that any good gun in 38 Special is OK with +P.

Just for fun I shot 500 factory +Ps and 600 of my own +P+ loads through this 1942 M&P without incident.


http://www.fototime.com/337D81FE3E44585/standard.jpg

GRIZ22
February 1, 2010, 05:50 PM
Any S&W Model 10 produced after 1957 is absolutely safe for +P ammunition, which coincidently is the same year that model numbers were being affixed.

I have read this from what I considered a reliable source. I have a 10-6 that has digested thousands of rounds of +P. I picked up a pencil barrel Model 64 manufactured in 1972 and emailed S&W Customer Service regading the use of +P. They said no +P.

Not trying to argue the point just relating what S&W told me.

336A
February 2, 2010, 08:21 PM
Huh I woder why they told you that GRIZ22. Oyeboten here ya' go, scroll down to page 11.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/other/S&W_Revolver_Manual.pdf

Oyeboten
February 2, 2010, 10:42 PM
K-frame Smith & Wesson revolver are my first love, and several of them occupy an honored place in my battery. They're exceptionally fine revolvers. However...they're not exceptionally strong revolvers.

Back in the day, when .357 ammunition was really "magnum" level ammunition, the only guns chambered for it were large framed...or N-frames as they've come to be known.

For very good reason.

That ammunition can be duplicated with 15 grains of new 2400, or 15.5 grains of Hercules 2400 if you have an older lot of it...but be warned. It's HOT. I have strong reservations with using it in the L-frames, and fire it only sparingly. It's an N-frame only load, and I have backed that off to 14.5 grains with the new Alliant 2400 just to be on the safe side...and jacketed bullets of the same mass should be backed off to 14.

I strongly suspect that the K-frame .357s were directly responsible for the castrated 158-grain .357 cartridge that we have today...which is rated at 1135 fps and normally chronographs at about 1100. The old stuff and the handloaded equivalent would break 1450 from a 6-inch barrel...rated at 1510 from an 8.375 tube.

If you happen to run into an older lot of .357 that's loaded with a lead SWC...be warned that firing it in a K-frame is courting disaster. Probably not on the first round, and probably not in a hundred...but one day for sure. When the Model 19 was introduced, the wisdom of the day was "Use .38s for practice and .357s for business."

For very good reason.

Just because the gun is roll-marked ".357 CTG" doesn't mean that it's a Ruger New Model Blackhawk unless it is a Blackhawk. Proceed with all due caution...and be gentle with that little K-frame. Treat it like a lady, and she'll be good to you.


Really good mentions there 1911Tuner.


Well worth reading twice, three times even.


I have only one .357 Magnum Revolver, and I have never shot it. It is a very nice, about as new, Model 13-2, 4 inch, Square Butt...'K-Frame'.


I have several older Boxes of Factory .357 Magnum Ammunition, acquired through the years, different sorts, from the late 1930s through the 1970s.


I had mused on the very thing you are reminding...squinting at the older Boxes with just that suspicion.

Oyeboten
February 2, 2010, 11:03 PM
Oyeboten here ya' go, scroll down to page 11.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore...ver_Manual.pdf


Thanks 336a,


Oh yeahhhh..for sure on all that.


Actually, originally, I had realized that ( in my opinion, ) S & W should have offered the "M & P" Revolvers in .38 ACP/9mm Largo, 9mm Luger, and .30 Mauser say, by ohhhhhhhhh, 1904 or so, using Full Moon Clips.

They had the Metalurgy, but I imagine they doubted the Market, and, or, bristled at the thought of offering their Revolvers Chambered for a proprietary 'Colt' Cartridge.


This lead me to wondering towrd maybe someday, electing an early-ish ( say, post 1919 anyway) K-Frame for conversion to either .38 ACP, or, if say a Model 13, then, to .38 Super.

I soon apreciated that the .38 Super Cartridge would probably be too much for a Model 10 Cylinder...or, would be imprudent anyway, in my guess.


Probably converting a 1920s M&P to .38 ACP would be 'iffy'...but, I dunno, maybe could get away with it...if the .38 ACP were kept within conservative bounds.

.38 Special +P supposedly tops out around 21,000 PSI I think.

.38 ACP, 'SAAMI' is 26,000 PSI

9mm, to which various Model 10s have been converted if memory serve, is 35,000 PSI


So...m-a-y-b-e...an older M&P could oblige .38 ACP...or, maybe not.

But it is not too far a stretch anyway, to wonder about.

No +P+ for this child or any of his .38 Specials.

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