[twoblink]

I was watching a Hong Kong B flick, (you know, the same story, younger brother is a cop, older brother is the mofia boss)

Anyway, in the last scene, the older brother is holding someone hostage, and one of the other cops pulls out his Smith Police Special, (4") and puts a bullet in the skull. The bullet did that penetrate the skull, and fractured it, and he was rushed to the hospital and later dies due to internal brain hemmoraging.

Sooo..

Albit it's just a movie (and a bad one at that)

What are the chances of a 38Spl _NOT_ penetrating the skull? I know countless stories of .22LR's not penetrating the skull, but have about a 38Spl?

[James Bondrock]

In his book Guns, Bullets and Gunfights, Jim Cirillo recounts an incident where four .38 Spl. lead round nose bullets to the head did not put the bad guy down, and it took other hits from his partner's gun to finally finish him. Upon examination, the bullets were found to have skidded around the skull without penetrating it.

[Cosmose]

hmm.... i'm not sure. but i have heard of round nose rounding around instead of penertrating:confused:

[George Hill]

Don't use LRN bullets.

[Jim K]

True, all skulls are not created equal, and I have heard of a .45 ACP also going around the victim's skull without penetrating.

But I also remember the picture of the South Vietnamese cop disposing of a VC prisoner with a .38 Special S&W Centennial. There was no doubt about the result, and there wouldn't be in any but a very few cases.

Jim

[JohnKSa]

One of my coworkers knew a guy who was a mean drunk. Upon his commencing hostilities at a bar, the cops were called. He, being somewhat sturdily built and very irritated by this time was remarkably uncooperative. One thing led to another and at some point in the excitement, one of the cops drew and fired in an effort to free his partner from the fellow's attentions. The bullet hit the man in the middle of the forehead. It didn't kill him or even incapacitate him. My coworker didn't know if it partially penetrated and stuck, or if it skidded off the forehead.

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

If I put a .38 in someones forehead and he was still standing, I think I would run:uhoh:

[HSMITH]

I have seen Winchester Silvertip 38's bounce off the skull of a deer and the skull of a 50 pound dog. You need a decent ANGLE to get ANY low velocity and/or low energy round to penetrate a skull. With a low velocity and/or low energy round I prefer a WFN hardcast slug over most anything else. Anything with a big flat meplat and a sharp shoulder will do me fine, and the heavier the better. They don't bounce off.

[Mike Irwin]

There are verified stories of the .45 ACP not punching through someone's skull.

The skull, especially the forehead and the rear of the skull, are extremely tough, made even more so by the smooth curved surface.

The sides of the skull, though, are flat and not as thick as the front and rear aspects, so it's a LOT easier to punch through there.

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

On another thread somone brought up the "cranial-ocular" shot. I think even the most anemic .25 auto can do some damage in the ocular region. Good shot when you can get it. I think I will start using those 1 inch shoot-n-c targets for practice.:evil:

[P95Carry]

There always seem to have been myths and legends on this. True .. instances have occured of apparent glancing deflections without penetration .... seemingly also cases of penetration followed by careening around inside, without damage to brain tissue to a great extend (still would macerate the meninges tho!)

My take is .. at close range, with ANY bullet profile, and even with frontal or occipital bones .. a perpendicular strike WILL and almost MUST shatter bone and penetrate .. hole may be neat but shatter the bone it still does. Temporal bone is about most vulnerable area.

There are oh so many cases of death by head shot from .22's as well . again, if these are perpendicular to bone surface then penetrate they usually will at close range. NEVER under estimate the humble .22 when placed this way.

[twoblink]

A staple gun will do the temple region.. That's almost got nothing as far as bone.

But the forehead is one hard area.. And I think this might be more of a "angle of incident" thing..

And also, depends if the person who's been shot has been drinking his milk :D
Not all skulls are created equally tough..

But yeah, the ear and eyes seem a much easier entry point than the forehead.

[Stainz]

In a work site safety article, 'Fine Homebuilding' magazine printed an x-ray of a worker who walked under a ladder as a co-worker was climbing down with a framing nail gun in his hand - finger on the trigger. The 12d nail secured his hard hat in place - the image showed the nail at an angle into his skull - fortunately at the midbrain. He walked into the ER - had a concussion! It took the OR to remove it, of course.

The 'retired' colonel-turned-talk-show-host, the one used as Rambo's boss' real life model, attempted suicide several years ago with a .45ACP to the chest. The round hit his chest plate and skidded around, exiting under his arm. He was knocked out - found later by his daughter, I believe. He survived - but his talk show didn't.

A friend's wife, an ER nurse, told the story of an unfortunate soul who put a .38 to his temple - a bit angled. Sudden, but sure, eye enucleation of that side eye - and the bone fragments blinded the other one. Burns and probably lost hearing in that side, but he survived.

The noggin can be a bit more tolerant of some things, but a drop of just four feet will probably prove fatal - wear helmets!

Stainz

[SDC]

It happens, and can even happen with RIFLE rounds; I just finished reading "CURRAHEE", by a 101st paratrooper who dropped into Normandy on June 6th. During the battles there. he had a friend struck in the helmeted head with an 8mm Mauser round, and the bullet went through the steel pot, glanced off the liner, followed the helmet around to the back, and then exited out the neck. When the author looked over, he saw his pal hunched over and holding his helmet down onto his head as hard as he could, because he thought the top of his head was going to come off :)

[444]

I have personally seen humans shot with small caliber handguns which had the bullet fail to penetrate the head, but not a .38 Special. I have no doubt that it is possible. I once shot a racoon treed by dogs. It was at night. We were using flashlights and a .22 rifle. All I could see was the 'coons eyes. I aimed in the center and shot. The coon ran down the tree and was caught by the dogs. When we skinned it, the bullet was stuck in the skull right between the eyes with very little penetration.
I was told about an interesting test conducted by Louis Awerbuck (told to me by Louis). They shot at the bill of a baseball hat (facing the shooter as if it was being worn) to see if it would deflect a bullet. He says that they got deflection even with a 12 gauge slug if it was hit right.

[Nightcrawler]

Anybody else remember the story of Phineas Gauge?

Expansion is fine. Penetration is critical. Heavy bullets at high velocity are best to be sure.

[jato]

I have seen 3 headshots with .38 Special.

Case #1: Suicide. J-frame in the mouth, unknown hollow point exited top of head. Victim instantly downed. Victim expired.

Case#2: Attempt murder. J-frame fired at victim's head at close range. Unknown hollow point penetrated (unknown exactly if or where brain was hit), causing massive bleeding. Victim downed and crawled about 15 feet before passing out. The victim made a %90 recovery.

Case #3: Attempt suicide. After shooting victim from case #2, the suspect shot himself in the right side of his head with the same j-frame/unknown hollow point. He was downed instantly. He lived and is now paralyzed.

I went to jury trial on case #2 & #3. The suspect (in a wheelchair) saw the victim (who was his ex-girlfriend) in the courtroom and changed his plea to guilty.

[sm]

Agree that the frontal and occipital are thickest. Zygomatic deflected a 38 spl ( don't recall bullet type). In Anat/Phys I noted some skulls thicker than others. In the OR I've seen the Marconi X-Rays...bullets don't always do as they are "supposed to do". .357 in roof of mouth guy lived, another used .38 spl and didn't....25 ACP to Parietal, DRT...Placement .

I've used .38spl on critters for testing ( rabid) same shot on two different critters and one DRT the other had to be shot again.

Handguns basically suck, but until I find IWB for 12 ga for CCW with slugs...

[uglygun]

Those of you who saw the shooting in Ca. where the guy attacked his attorney, that little snub nose sure did an awful job.

What was it? 5 direct hits and downright pathetic performance? The guy got shot in the neck of all places from a total distance of like 3 feet and the bullet failed to exit within just 5-6 inches of depth.


I can certainly believe that in some situations a 38spl. could skid across a skull if it didn't impact at a high angle of attack.


True, all skulls are not created equal,


LOL, NO KIDDING!

[Sean Smith]

.38 Special +P had at least one failure to stop with a headshot in the FBI's 11 April 1986 Florida firefight. Matix was temporarily stunned by a solid headshot, but got back up, and it later took 3 more .38 Specials to the head to put him down for good.

[10-Ring]

You gotta go after the soft tissue on the head for a head shot to be effective...ie. eyes, temple, mouth. The bonier skull region could change the outcome.

[Nightcrawler]

The answers are easy, though not 100%. Phineas Gauge had a steel bar shoved clean through his head and yet lived; nothing is certain.

However, to ensure adequate penetration of the frontal skull plate, heavier bullets at higher velocities are better. This type of penetration is the result of momentum, I think, and the more the merrier. Light bullets at even high velocities will often have less momentum than a heavier bullet at a lower velocity. Mass counts a LOT in this area. Basically, the more momentum, and the better sectional density, the harder it is to stop your bullet.

10mm and .357 Magnum really shine in this area (penetration). 9mm +P+ is good, .357 Sig is probably better, as is .38 Super. (Remember, penetration was one of the original marketing ploys for both .357 Magnum and .38 Super Auto.)

[Quantrill]

Lt. Frank McGee, who at the time was the commanding officer of the NYPD Firearms Unit, personally told me the story of the rookie cop whose first assignment was the Bronx zoo. At that time, all discharges of police weapons had to be written up and eventually would cross McGee's desk. This brand new young cop knew zilch about weapons except for his 40 hours training (at that time) with the firearms unit during his initial training. The cop is called over to the bear section where a polar bear has got hold of a lady and is chewing her arm. (Personally, I think the bear was within his rights, her having climbed over an obstacle to "pet" the bear.). The cop pulls his newly purchased S&W #10 with 158gr issued LRN bullets and pops the bear in the head once. End of Story! Bear expires immediatly, lets go of idiot lady, cop is berated by very upset Bronx Zoo people. Point made by McGee is how did that single LRN bullet ever kill that bear? Lesson is that .38 specials can do and not do some pretty amazing things. Quantrill

[twoblink]

If I remember from the movie correctly, even if you don't get a penetration, you do end up with a concussion, which will easily kill you. So maybe that is what happened to the bear.

But I guess, no round is for certain.. Even .223 rounds, I've seen to much Discovery to know that a lot of people make it with multiple hits from a rifle round.

[Johnny Guest]

While in college in early sixties, I worked at the City-County Hospital in Fort Worth. I went in through the ER one night as a police car was leaving. The buzz was that the guy being hauled away had been head shot after firing on an FWPD officer. Suspect was running down an alley away from the cop. Officer stopped, took good aim from about 20 yards, and shot him in the back of the head with a 158 RNL from a four-inch S&W. Guy went down HARD. The officer and his sergeant thought the suspect was DRT. They were waiting for the coroner when the suspect started reganing consciousness. Bullet had struck JUST to one side of the occipital process, skidded around between scalp and skull, and stopped almost dead center on the forehead.

At hospital, they took a number 11 blade, nicked the skin and popped the slightly flattened bullet out. They irrigated the wound track, put in four stitches, bandaged, and observed him for a couple of hours. And so to jail.

:p
Johnny

[Byron Quick]

Bullets of all calibers do strange things.

I know a nurse who was shot in the forehead with a .38 Special. Bullet penetrated. She lived. Being shot directly outside the ER probably had much to do with her survival. She made a remarkable recovery except for one thing...she cannot tolerate light.

There's a guy in Sardis, Ga. who was shot beside his nose by a cop with a .357-recovered with no deficits.

A 19 year old girl walked into my ER after being shot in the face with a 9mm. Xray showed the bullet resting against her carotid artery.

A man shot in the face with a .32 ACP. It knocked out a front tooth. The cops found the bullet laying on the ground where he had been standing.

A man shot in the right hip with a .32 ACP. The bullet stopped under the skin of his left hip. This gentleman was a very big man. That little bullet went a long way.

I shot a deer in the top of its cranium with a .38 Special JHP +P after crushing its pelvis with my truck. That deer tried to walk off. If its pelvis had not been damaged, it would have walked off. The bullet went entirely through its head.

[ACP]

And so to my dream last night, after reading this thread. I am being assaulted by three armed bank robbers on a public street. As they approach me, I draw my 1911 and fire a round into each chest from a distance of about 10 yards, then again as they close. Next thing I know, they are kicking/beating me on the ground. One gets up close to my face and is about to finish me off when I put the muzzle of my .45 to his left temple and fire twice. Then I wake up. :uhoh:

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Back on the farm we were fixin to butcher the steer. Big brother just got a Blackhawk in .44 mag. "That should drop him!" 6 shots later, with the steer still standing there looking at us, the old man stepped up with the .22 rifle. One shot drop. Accuracy can be everything.

We dug 6 .44 slugs out of the neck upon butchering. All missed the brain. The .22 didn't.

Moral is, animals have small brains:D

[carpettbaggerr]

Accuracy can be everything.

And knowing where to aim is important. Cattle have small brains (like Democrats). You've got to know where to shoot them if you want to put them down.


ACP -- thats why I've got a flamethrower in most of my dreams. http://www.paulsxp.com/smilies/contrib/paladin/flamethrower.gif

[Tamara]

What are the chances of a 38Spl _NOT_ penetrating the skull? I know countless stories of .22LR's not penetrating the skull, but have about a 38Spl?

Bullets as large as .50 cal have skidded around the cranial vault, so if there's a magic caliber threshold, it's somewhere north of there. :uhoh:

[SirVette]

Back on the farm we were fixin to butcher the steer. Big brother just got a Blackhawk in .44 mag. "That should drop him!" 6 shots later, with the steer still standing there looking at us, the old man stepped up with the .22 rifle. One shot drop. Accuracy can be everything.
7.62FullMetalJacket

Some man wrote a book about going around the world shooting big game with a "too small" .22X - not a 22. Don't recall the exact caliber, not my area of interest. Someone here probably knows.

Many agents like the small pistol Walther TPH 22 lr. Silencers are available for it.

[Freightman]

The statement that all skulls are not the same is very true.
I am about to tell this on myself so it will show you cant tell how thick and strong the bone is: I was working on a platform 25' up from a basement in a grain elevator when I was 16 ( a long time ago) when I got tangled up in a 75 hp electrec driven engine. It threw me across the basement into a pole and I fell 25' straight down on my head(no other bruses any where else). They rushed me to the hospital where I was out for 12 hrs. Now the Dr. said " you have the hardest head I have ever seen" I did not even fracture my skull.
THat was 47 years ago and I have never as much as had a head ache of the injury just some scars to identify my good luck.
Shoot the dude in the throat (adams apple) that will stop him.

[WESHOOT2]

Someone tell me how to predict actual terminal performance.

Ain't happened yet.............may never...........

[freepatriot]

Good shot when you can get it. I think I will start using those 1 inch shoot-n-c targets for practice

The tricky part is getting the bad guy to put the target on his head when you're ready to take a shot.

"Excuse me, mister, can you take this little black circle sticker..."

[twoblink]

I've heard war stories about .223 and 308's not doing the job (angle of deflection is probably critical)..

So as far as the "magic" terminal velocity, caliber etc.. it... probably depends on the head you are shooting at!

So I guess when someone says you are "thick skulled" that's a good thing??

[4v50 Gary]

What James Bondrock says. As I've done quite a bit of reading on the Civil WAr, I've seen one or two accounts of the same thing about .58 caliber minie balls not penetrating. Ball goes in, travels around the skull and pops out. We're talk 500 plus grains of lead. :eek: I've also heard of accounts where the minie ball flattens itself against the forehead and is plucked out. Lesson: There is no magic bullet. Try a 6 pdr cannon ball and that'll generally work.

ACP - stay away from gun boards for a while. That's one heckuva anxiety inspired nightmare.

[Al Thompson]

Guy I knew comitted suicide with a .45LC with stout handloads. He was a LEO and did the deed in his patrol car. The bullet (SWC IIRC) skidded around his head - no cranial penetration. Poor guy died of blood loss. :(

Shot a turkey twice with a .45ACP - once in the front, once from the back with 230 gr hardball. Bullet paths crossed. Turkey ran about 40 yards. :rolleyes:

Ain't no magic bullets.

[JShirley]

Any "finishing shots" or insurance shots I've taken in the past few years on deer have been to the neck.

Still had some muscular movement on the doe I was about to move yesterday, so I popped her in the neck twice- with my P32. :D The little FN blunt hardball penetrated all the way through her neck. I reckon it would've worked on ill-intending humans, too.

[twoblink]

Since I was the one to help cutup the deer, I was surprised that the deer ran as far as it did when my friend shot it.

The bullet went through the heart (softpoint) and nicked a big 308 hole in it..

bleeding out is horrid..