Cheapest (class III) machine guns presently?


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cleetus03
February 1, 2010, 12:40 AM
So......I just finished watching a video doc on the "Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot". Never really knew the legalities of full auto firearms and am now really intrigued.....

I know that since the "Firearms Owners' Protection Act of May 19, 1986", legally transferable machine guns have continued to soar in price.....

With that said what are the cheapest priced "pre 86" machine guns on the market right now?.....I'm thinking it's one of those questions answered by a "if you have to ask you can't afford it" kind of reply


Appreciate any help or info yall can give me on this!

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C-grunt
February 1, 2010, 12:43 AM
I think the MAC-10 and 11s are like 4 or 5 grand.

lions
February 1, 2010, 01:09 AM
A nice man who let me shoot some of his once told me that an Uzi would be the cheapest way to get into full auto. I didn't ask him that question but I'm assuming the look on my face told him all he needed to know.

C-grunt
February 1, 2010, 01:36 AM
http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/c/machine-guns-class-iii/p/mac-ingram-m10a1-9mm-45acp-sub-machine-gun/cPath/175/products_id/4078

$3895.00

mrnkc130
February 1, 2010, 02:21 AM
you can find mac10/11's in the 2500-3200 range sometimes..i think sten guns are about the next cheapest usually

dscottw88
February 1, 2010, 03:35 AM
I don't know if this helps, but a frequent guest as my work has got a couple full auto Uzi's. From discussions with him, I was under the Impression that they were some of the cheaper ways to get into Full-Auto Territory.

D Boone
February 1, 2010, 08:20 AM
A registered bolt only, meaning you have the Uzi already, are running about $6500 new. FA and transferable Uzi used depending on brand runs about the same. M-10 & M-11 cheapest FA available now. Like has already been said, about 2500-3500 can be found. A Lage upper and you have a world class firearm. You live in FL, you need a trust. It seems last time I looked most of the NIB SWD M-10 & M-11's live in FL. Good luck.

TexasRifleman
February 1, 2010, 09:15 AM
Cheapest QUALITY firearm you could get is probably an AC-556 Ruger.

Mac and Uzi are lower cost but you're a bit limited on what you can do with them. The Ruger is something you could actually use.

But there are a lot of Macs out there for sale, some even still "NIB" from '86.

Hatterasguy
February 1, 2010, 10:02 AM
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=155480418


Personaly I like the FN FNC. If I didn't live in a communist state I would already own a semi auto one.


Also you can get full auto lowers for the Sig556 series for around $2k, one just sold on Gunbroker for $1,800.
https://www.cogunsales.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=377&category_id=11&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1

Sig uses a full auto bolt and bolt carrier in all the 556's, so all you need to do is clip on the lower. I don't know how they get away with doing that but they are.

Anyway the trick would be doing it legaly, I guess the lower would be the registered part?

armoredman
February 1, 2010, 10:03 AM
Seen AC556 for $3500, but that was maybe two years ago. Still waaaaay too expensive for me.

taliv
February 1, 2010, 10:04 AM
two main places to shop for real toys

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/nfa4sale.cgi

and

http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/?db=nfafirearms&category=All+Items+in+this+Category&query=category&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=headlines&website=&language=&session_key=

Sam1911
February 1, 2010, 10:40 AM
One thing I've always been curious about: The FN FNC always seems to be a "value" priced Title II MG, but I don't know why.

Why is it that they seem to be nearly the same price as a Ruger AC566? Always around $7k - $9K, and seemingly (to me, anyway) much more desirable than an M-16 which will go for twice that.

Why aren't they more desired?

Thanks!

-Sam

taliv
February 1, 2010, 10:51 AM
hmm.... standard issue of the indonesian airforce or standard issue of the US military ;)

parts availability, modularity, and ergonomics are just a couple of the hundreds of reasons one is more desirable than the other...

Zerodefect
February 1, 2010, 10:54 AM
Can you stil get a DIAS for an Ar?

Sam1911
February 1, 2010, 11:10 AM
taliv,

Well, sure...but also standard issue of Belgium and Sweden! So that's like...0.03% of the world's military forces all FLOCKING to this one design! :D

It was actually the "couple of hundred" other reasons I was interested in. On the surface it seems to have a lot going for it: rotating bolt, piston driven, folding stock, STANAG mags, FAL-like ergonomics which don't exactly SUCK, etc.

Is the issue that it just didn't get much traction when competing against our M-16 variants for arming the free world, or are there critical problems with the design?

I've never quite managed to convince myself that I needed an AR. But I've always kind of had a sweet spot for the FNC and I don't want to (someday) plop down some cash for a real dog of a gun.

-Sam

taliv
February 1, 2010, 11:23 AM
i wouldn't use the NFA market as a barometer for desirability of a platform. prices are more affected by supply, collectability, historical significance, price of ammo, etc

zero, yes, DIAS are pretty common

tallpaul
February 1, 2010, 11:42 AM
Check out and ask at www.subguns.com

The ruger is a joke... they don't like civilians having them and the support is poor. The design sup[posidly doesn't hold up great with the FA... The ingram and the sten can be made to work better more reliable.


I got in the game in the early nineties and got a sten... its fun and definately was one of the affordable ones although I am kickin myself for not gettin a couple more BACK THEN... a FA AR or M16 would be fun with the caliber changes etc.

The sten is a bit slower and more affordable than the M10/11 but the new uppers for them can slow em down a bit.

No matter what they cost they are still cheaper than not going through the legit channels! The lawyer fees and fines etc can surpass the cost of a decent M!6 or others real quick if ya don't keep it legal.

I said that when I bought mine back then and it still applies.

forindooruseonly
February 1, 2010, 01:05 PM
M10/11 are pretty much the bottom of the price range, from about $2500 and up. However, if you buy one, make sure you get a suppressor with them. They make both guns much more controllable. Stens are also cheap and good, but another cheapie, the S&W 76, has a horrible reputation. Uzis will run 6-7k.

People talk alot about how worthless the Ingrams are, but they are insanely fun to shoot. As far as quality goes, if you get a Powder Springs version of the MAC, they are extremely well built and reliable. Some of the later Texas MACs were not built well and may need re-welding.

And as far as usage is concerned, how useful is any FA? You can't hunt with them, carry them concealed, carry them across state lines without permission, or even shoot them at many ranges. I wouldn't use mine for defense, either, just because I would be scared of the legal implications and the risk of having very expensive guns confiscated. In the civilian world, they exist simply to waste ammo and have a good time. Subguns like the MAC are a different breed of gun than assault rifles, which is what the Ruger is. Different purposes, different designs. You can't compare apples with oranges.

Beware, though. Once you buy a FA gun, they become addictive. The MACs were I how I got into the FA game. And to echo tallpaul, do not play around with illegitimate machine guns. It will wreck your life when you get caught.

Hatterasguy
February 1, 2010, 03:38 PM
The FN FNC is kind of an oddball rifle in this country. Its not as commen or well known as an AR.

Which is a shame because IMHO its a great rifle, I'd buy one over an AR any day of the week.


Or you could go the Sig route if you can figure out how to make it legal. I wouldn't get anything illegal, personaly I rather not spend 10 years in jail for a gun.

dagger dog
February 1, 2010, 04:08 PM
STEN, they are what is known as a tube build.

desidog
February 1, 2010, 04:11 PM
If you have to ask the price.........

Just remember that the price is only to get her home; then you gotta feed her.
Depending on the chambering, the cyclical rate of fire, and the grade of ammo used, you could be talking big bucks.

So say .308, at $.50 a round (to make the math easy)
.50 x 30 = $15/mag
.50 x 200 (belt-fed!) = $100/belt ....now multiply by rate of fire...say 400 rds/min

Yep, you could burn through 100 bucks in 30 seconds easy!

jmorris
February 1, 2010, 04:13 PM
The m10 and 11's are about the least expensive. If you get a m10 in 45 acp you can convert it to 9mm and .22.

The last one I picked up was a powder springs m10/9 NIB for $2800 last year.

jmorris
February 1, 2010, 04:15 PM
Also, as above I can shoot a 9mm smg for an afternoon for what it costs for an hour of running my 1919.

ny32182
February 1, 2010, 04:33 PM
Are those full auto SIG 550 lowers above legit/transferrable at $2000? That sounds too good to be true.

As far as how they would put an auto carrier in a Sig 556; same way they do it in a multitude of AR15's I guess. With ARs, it is the trigger parts that matter. I don't know if there is anything about a Sig that would change the legalities of that.

Maverick223
February 1, 2010, 05:08 PM
Are those full auto SIG 550 lowers above legit/transferrable at $2000? That sounds too good to be true.+1, seems far too inexpensive to me.

:)

Exposure
February 1, 2010, 05:55 PM
Tallpaul said-

The ruger is a joke... they don't like civilians having them and the support is poor. The design sup[posidly doesn't hold up great with the FA...

:scrutiny: I don't know where you got that information. The factory support for the AC556 is GREAT. It is the only civilian transferable MG you can buy that can be sent back to the factory for a complete rebuild. There is absolutely NO factory support for any other MG's out there. It is specialists only if your very pricey transferable needs a tune up. It is around $300 to have the gun completely redone by Ruger. A bargain for sure. They even have a stash of pre 86 recievers that they use to rebuild the occasional destroyed firearm.

As far as the AC556 not holding up under full auto, they just run, and run, and run. Just like a Mini. The AC is a very underappreciated rifle caliber MG. It and the FNC are the bargains if you want to get into a full auto that is chambered in a rifle caliber.

jmorris
February 1, 2010, 06:13 PM
The 550 didn't start production until 1986, the same year new civi autos couldn't be built anymore. So, if it sound too good to be true... Even $.35 of metal to make a lighting link on a form 4 costs over $7000 today.

Dimis
February 1, 2010, 09:49 PM
probably a silly question but is there reference guide or "list" for lack of better term for pre 86 weapons kind of like the C&R liscence gets?

it seams that every time i get interested in owning a full auto it turns out to be a post 86 and my hopes are dashed

tallpaul
February 1, 2010, 09:58 PM
ExposureI don't know where you got that information. The factory support for the AC556 is GREAT. It is the only civilian transferable MG you can buy that can be sent back to the factory for a complete rebuild. There is absolutely NO factory support for any other MG's out there. It is specialists only if your very pricey transferable needs a tune up. It is around $300 to have the gun completely redone by Ruger. A bargain for sure. They even have a stash of pre 86 recievers that they use to rebuild the occasional destroyed firearm.

As far as the AC556 not holding up under full auto, they just run, and run, and run. Just like a Mini. The AC is a very underappreciated rifle caliber MG. It and the FNC are the bargains if you want to get into a full auto that is chambered in a rifle caliber.

Sorry about that just heard a few guys that had em talkin on subguns years back when I was more actively looking... maybe it depended on where ya sent it ti be fixed.

the atf has quit allowing full replacement of silencers and I believe receivers.. if its dead its dead and ya would need to do another stamp.... so destroying one SN piece and restampin a new one so recievers are nice but more complicated than in the past.

Sam1911
February 1, 2010, 10:04 PM
is there reference guide or "list"

Not that I've ever heard of.

There's an even easier way to find out what's available. Just go to a few of the sites that lists classified ads for Title II firearms. As there aren't any more being let into the registry, and haven't been since 1986, if you want something, you'll have to find an existing one for sale from someone who HAS one. If there aren't any for sale from dealers or private owners, there just aren't any. It's not like you can order one from the factory.

Even easier, though: You can always take a few seconds to look at a site like this one: http://world.guns.ru/main-e.htm, look up the gun you like, and check on when it was first made/fielded. If it didn't enter production until after 1986, you're pretty much SOL. Even if it DID enter production sometime in the mid 1980s, if more than a handful weren't imported before the ban, chances are their even greater scarcity will make the price astronomical!

-Sam

CleverNickname
February 1, 2010, 10:16 PM
One thing I've always been curious about: The FN FNC always seems to be a "value" priced Title II MG, but I don't know why.

Why is it that they seem to be nearly the same price as a Ruger AC566? Always around $7k - $9K, and seemingly (to me, anyway) much more desirable than an M-16 which will go for twice that.

Why aren't they more desired?


Here's my opinion as someone who used to own a transferrable FNC and now owns an M16:

FNC Pros / M16 Cons:
1. FNC is cheaper by $2-3k
2. FNC is more unusual than an AR-pattern rifle

FNC Cons / M16 Pros:
1. FNC spare parts are close to non-existant. Last I checked, DSA sold spare firing pins and a B&T rail system, but that was about it. Break something else or wear out a barrel and your only recourse is to find a semi-auto FNC for spare parts. But by the time you do that you've spent the difference between an FNC machine gun and an M16. M16 spare parts are everywhere.
2. With an FNC you're stuck with 5.56mm. No available caliber conversions. But with an M16 you can shoot everything from .22LR to almost any pistol caliber to intermediate rifle calibers in both magazine- and belt-fed by just changing the upper.

Unless you're filling out your collection and the FNC is your 25th transferable machine gun or something, going with the M16 is a no-brainer.

Sam1911
February 1, 2010, 10:54 PM
CNN,

I see your points and some of them make quite a lot of sense. I didn't realize that spare parts were so totally non-existent! That's a deal killer, pretty much.

I will disagree on the cost: "FNC is cheaper by $2-3k?" I've seen them regularly for less than $9,000, while transferable M16s seem to go for $15,000-$18,000. That's quite a difference.

But, otherwise I do agree with your points. Thanks!

-Sam

CleverNickname
February 2, 2010, 12:42 AM
There's M16's and then there's "M16's". If you're a serious collector and want a NIB Colt M16A2, then yeah that'll run you $18k or so. If you just want to put lead downrange really fast, a converted AR15 registered receiver can be bought for under $10k. Functionally they're the same, but one's more rare and has a pony on the side so it commands a premium.

Take a look here for some current prices. (http://miniuzi.com/uzifinder.php?gp=gun&stype=nfa&st=m16)

IndianaBoy
February 2, 2010, 01:12 AM
Are those full auto SIG 550 lowers above legit/transferrable at $2000?

No.

Those are post 86 dealer samples. Not transferrable.

pikid89
February 15, 2010, 12:55 PM
what do legal trigger packs for 10/22 run these days...one of them would be sweet with "the brick" by rhino arms

CleverNickname
February 15, 2010, 04:10 PM
Last I checked they were going for $8k or so. For that much I'd spend a thousand or two more and buy an M16 which can also shoot other calibers in addition to .22LR. The M16 really is the best value in a transferrable machine gun.

Gunnerpalace
February 15, 2010, 08:55 PM
Not that I've ever heard of.

No there is one

Here toy go: http://machinegunpriceguide.com/html/price_guides.html

NoAlibi
February 16, 2010, 01:28 PM
Exposure -I don't know where you got that information. The factory support for the AC556 is GREAT. It is the only civilian transferable MG you can buy that can be sent back to the factory for a complete rebuild. There is absolutely NO factory support for any other MG's out there. It is specialists only if your very pricey transferable needs a tune up. It is around $300 to have the gun completely redone by Ruger. A bargain for sure.

Thanks for coming to the defense of my Ruger. If it is a joke I'm sure that no one would not like to get a "punch line" from the muzzle of my AC-5.56

My Ruger is S/S with the factory folding stock. I can't comment on factory service because the gun has been so totally reliable for the 18 years that I've owned it that I never had the need for service. If the time ever comes that I need service I'll post the results.

At the time of purchase I also bought 2 cases (15,280 bullets) of W-W, 55 gr., FMJ bullets @ 2.9 cents each - delivered and 25,000 W-W small rifle primers @ 11 dollars/1000 (Ahhh...the good old days!) Throw in a 10% reduced load of Accurate Arms 2200 Data Powder (24 pounds @ $6/pound + hazmat and shipping) and you have an fun way to spend an afternoon at the range without having to hock your house!

mboylan
February 20, 2010, 09:25 PM
Can you stil get a DIAS for an Ar?
Yes, I've seen them for about $9000. I would probably go with a RR over that. The DIAS is pretty easy to lose if someone opens up the AR.

mboylan
February 20, 2010, 09:32 PM
probably a silly question but is there reference guide or "list" for lack of better term for pre 86 weapons kind of like the C&R liscence gets?

it seams that every time i get interested in owning a full auto it turns out to be a post 86 and my hopes are dashed
No. The MG must have been registered to a civilian on or before May 19, 1986. You cannot pick up a machine gun made before 1986 and register it. The registry is closed. There is no amnesty. There is no available list of individual serial numbers or quantity by type. It is estimated that there are between 125,000 and 135,000 registered transferables. There are 300,000+ registered MGs. Less than half can be transferred to a civilian.

The Tennessean
February 20, 2010, 10:10 PM
two main places to shop for real toys

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/nfa4sale.cgi

and

http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/?...=&session_key=

See, I didn't know about those places... now I do, it's all your fault. I may have to re-mortgage the house now, hah!

LiquidTension
February 25, 2010, 04:27 PM
An M10 or M11 with a Lage upper is absolutely the best way to get into the full auto game. The guns run anywhere between $2500 and $3500 and the upper can be found here: http://www.max-11.com/

DoubleTapDrew
February 25, 2010, 05:15 PM
what do legal trigger packs for 10/22 run these days...one of them would be sweet with "the brick" by rhino arms
They go up every year, I think the last ones I saw were going for about $9k to $10k. Heard John Norrell cranked out a bunch of them before the '86 ban and sells 10 or so every year (and they go fast).

phorvick
March 9, 2010, 12:02 AM
Reising model 50's are in the $3500-$5000 range. Mine has been a 100% workhorse....great fun....

Sgt. Stiglitz
March 10, 2010, 06:47 AM
I picked up one of these in 2005 for $4200.00. Runs like a swiss watch with brass cased ammo. Steel cased Wolf is another story! 9 MM is the way to go. Cheap and fun to shoot. Easy, simple to fix, if it breaks, parts are plentiful or can be made.......

http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/qq263/Sapo60/Dsc_1909_01.jpg

http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/qq263/Sapo60/100_4288.jpg

http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/qq263/Sapo60/100_3113.jpg

Google MK-760 Pro-Point sight for You Tube video of it in action.....

langoley
March 27, 2010, 11:04 AM
And it is riduculous(sp) that prices are so high!!I know that the guys that own class 3's are gonna scream but my opinion is the law should be repealed and the market opened up.When you can buy an M16 in Somalia for $200 why should they cost $20,000 here,+$200 for a tax stamp?That is just pure BS!!I know the argument that you guys are gonna lose money on what you paid for yours,but there is a little thing called the SECOND AMENDMENT,and we shouldn't have to pay a TAX,like the old pole tax to vote,just to own a class 3.I think with the PROPER legal argument it could be defeated.I will quit now,my blood pressure is up enough for now.

Sam1911
March 27, 2010, 11:41 AM
Langoley, first of all, welcome to THR. Second, calm down a bit. You're among friends here, and everyone feels just like you do.

Third, watch out arguing against those owners of "Title II regulated" firearms (not "Class 3" firearms) that you think want to protect their investments. Around here those are just about fighting words as many of our machine gunning members fight just as hard -- or harder -- than you to get the Hughes amendment repealed. And they don't particularly care for being accused of "protecting their investment" to the detriment of the 2nd Amendment and their fellow gun owners.

Take care,

JTW Jr.
March 27, 2010, 11:44 AM
I think with the PROPER legal argument it could be defeated
The NFA act of 1934 brought forth the $200 tax , the GCA of 68 brought the restriction on importation , nothing has changed yet in 76 years regarding the tax and nothing has changed in 42 years on the importation , so don't count on it being defeated anytime soon. Not like people haven't tried to challenge or defeat it.

WoofersInc
March 27, 2010, 03:01 PM
I know that the guys that own class 3's are gonna scream but my opinion is the law should be repealed and the market opened up.

I am willing to bet that almost every class 3 owner would welcome the opening of the registry. Most did not get into this for the monetary value.

Coronach
March 27, 2010, 04:07 PM
I'm sure there are a couple would would be upset, but the vast majority of the class III owners I know would be elated. Not everyone puts $$$ ahead of doing the right thing.

Mike

CleverNickname
March 27, 2010, 09:20 PM
Almost all transferable machine gun owners (me included) would be elated at the ability to buy more machine guns. Barring a lottery win or some unknown wealthy relative dying and leaving me millions, I'm almost certainly not going to be able to afford any more at the current prices. But if 922(o) ever went away, the two I own would quickly become at least five or six.

Nick5182
March 27, 2010, 09:30 PM
Most of you guys are really lucky to live in a state that allows class III. I can't own anything class III here. A fake suppressor is the closest I can get.

ijosef
April 7, 2010, 02:19 AM
What about an original Thompson M1921A? If you just multiply your budget by a figure of ten, you could get one. :D

Seriously, the prison where I work had a bunch of old Thompsons (six or seven) that were used for tower duty "back in the day," as well as a BAR. They were pretty beat up, but they were able to sell them several years ago for a nice chunk of change - enough to buy all new shotguns and DPMS AR-15s all around and still have some left over. They kept the BAR and the Thompson that was in the best condition - it's now in a case in the Warden's office.

MatthewVanitas
April 22, 2010, 07:38 AM
Surprised nobody has mentioned the Stemple yet. Basically a modular SMG made in the 2000s on old registered S&W 76-type receivers. They've made various ways you can kit it out into different formats.

I've seen these run as low as $5K.

http://www.brpguns.com/stg.htm

http://www.brpguns.com/images/P1040019.jpg

The MACs are undoubtedly cheaper, but in the <$6K (cheaper-than-Uzi) realm the Stemples definitely need to be mentioned.


If you glance around Machine Gun Price Guide (http://machinegunpriceguide.com/), you might run across a few other odd NFA full-auto that run under the price of an Uzi.

CleverNickname
April 22, 2010, 11:13 PM
Stemples win the ugly prize too.

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