New Glock 17 shooting reload with 125gr lead


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kmats1246
February 1, 2010, 02:25 AM
New Glock 17 FTR series shoots best with Magnum 115g factory load..my reloads are 125g LC lead which seems to go right or totally miss my big target at the range..I've tried min/max gn loads but still the factory load hits the target..I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this..

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REAPER4206969
February 1, 2010, 02:27 AM
You should not shoot lead in a Glock.

Full Metal Jacket
February 1, 2010, 02:55 AM
^^^+1. a lot of people do, and press their luck doing it. i wouldn't.

kmats1246
February 1, 2010, 04:48 AM
hi, thanks for the reply..is that the reason for the inaccuracy? thanks Kem

REAPER4206969
February 1, 2010, 05:41 AM
The reason is that the polygonal rifled barrel is susceptible to excessive leading which causes overpressure leading to possible catastrophic failure as well as poor accuracy due to the bullet not fully engaging the polygonal rifling. Use only full metal jacket/plated bullets in Glock barrels. If you wish to shoot lead in your Glock you can purchase an aftermarket drop-in land-and-groove Ballard rifled barrel such as this:

http://www.lonewolfdist.com/ItemMedia/10000/10000_545.jpg
http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=926

cottonmouth
February 1, 2010, 11:22 AM
I put a Lone Wolf barrel in my Glock 22RTF and it seems to do fine so far.

J.B.

Hk Dan
February 1, 2010, 11:34 AM
Reaper, read Chapter 4 of "The GLOCK in Competition" for a real answer to the lead bullet question. Yours is the conventional wisdom, but is not entirely accurate.

To the accuracy question: Did you re-seat the lead bullets? In plated or lead bullets, seating, then re-seating them shorter CAN cause keyholing and highly inaccurate shots even as close at 10 yards.

What OAL are you using?

Dan

Steve C
February 1, 2010, 12:34 PM
Never got a good result shooting lead in the Glocks polygonal rifled barrel so I quite trying. In my defense though it was done 20 years ago prior to all the warning about lead in Glocks. A conventionally rifled aftermarket barrel like the one from Lone Wolf would likely be the remedy if you think the cost is worth it.

Full Metal Jacket
February 1, 2010, 12:58 PM
Reaper, read Chapter 4 of "The GLOCK in Competition" for a real answer to the lead bullet question. Yours is the conventional wisdom, but is not entirely accurate.

you should read the manual that comes from glock and is included with each gun.

it expressly warns against lead loads in it's pistols. i tend to take manufacturer warnings as truth-they built it.

SCBradley
February 1, 2010, 04:33 PM
you should read the manual that comes from glock and is included with each gun.

it expressly warns against lead loads in it's pistols. i tend to take manufacturer warnings as truth-they built it.

Almost every manual I've ever had states that you should never shoot reloads. Is that because it is an unsafe practice, or is it to cover the manufacturer's a**?

Lead is perfectly fine in a Glock if the hardness and velocity are correct. If you're not sure, don't shoot it.

RP88
February 1, 2010, 05:11 PM
you will be best off putting a traditional grooved barrel in instead of using the polygonal barrel. It's worth it. The last thing you want is to have your new Glock be the reason why you need a new finger or two. Besides, the lead stuff - even if it doesn't potentially harm the gun - is dirty.

HGUNHNTR
February 2, 2010, 01:09 AM
Lead can build up in the polygonal rifling causing unsafe pressures.

Don't do it.

REAPER4206969
February 2, 2010, 01:22 AM
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=993463

SCBradley
February 2, 2010, 03:16 AM
reaper said:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=993463

If you didn't reload the rounds, don't shoot them. When reloading, if you're not sure you know what you're doing, walk away.

greyeyezz
February 2, 2010, 11:32 AM
Should something happen to your pistol and you mention to Glock you fired reloads your warranty is immediately void.

easyg
February 2, 2010, 12:25 PM
No bare lead and no re-loads, and your Glock will serve you well.

Use re-loads and bare lead and you're just begging for fate to make an example of you.

greyeyezz
February 2, 2010, 01:32 PM
I don't think he's heeding are warnings, he's concerned with accuracy. Hopefully he won't be posting back with his G17 looking like a detonated grenade.

greenlion
February 2, 2010, 05:45 PM
Hey. The lead issue can be solved by using plated lead bullets from a manufacturer like Berry's Bullets. If you order an aftermarket barrel, you should let the company you order from know that it is for lead reloads as the tolerances will have to be a bit looser than match grade for that.

The accuracy is more confusing. You say it shoots best with a Magnum 115gr load. Do you mean +P rated? At what distance are you shooting? I've seen reloads have a slightly different point of impact, but never a big enough change to miss a target if you had the gun zeroed to begin with. Can you provide more info??

RippinSVT
February 2, 2010, 05:57 PM
No bare lead and no re-loads, and your Glock will serve you well.

Use re-loads and bare lead and you're just begging for fate to make an example of you.
So you are saying that reloading is dangerous? lol, ok.

Sam1911
February 2, 2010, 06:09 PM
If you order an aftermarket barrel, you should let the company you order from know that it is for lead reloads as the tolerances will have to be a bit looser than match grade for that.Wow....where do ideas like this things get started? :rolleyes:

-Sam

Patrick R
February 2, 2010, 08:11 PM
I use a Lone Wolf barrel in my G 17. 125 gr LRN bullets. Works well.

Shot over 1000 lead rounds so far.

Full Metal Jacket
February 2, 2010, 08:35 PM
Almost every manual I've ever had states that you should never shoot reloads. Is that because it is an unsafe practice, or is it to cover the manufacturer's a**?

Lead is perfectly fine in a Glock

you might want to re-read my post, bro. i never mentioned reloads.

i stated that the glock manual strictly warns against using LEAD bullets (as does every other manufacturer that utilizes polygonal rifling). if you want to press your luck, more power to you. however, i will take glock's word for it.

a lot of folks disregard these warnings and press their luck. not me, i'll take the safe route, thanx.


...and since you mentioned it, the reason you should pay attention to glock's warning about using reloads is their loose chamber dimensions, and unsupported chambers. this warning is not a lawyer proofing measure as with other manufacturers. what do you think causes "glock kabooms"?

SCBradley
February 2, 2010, 11:14 PM
i never mentioned reloads.

No, I did. Almost all manufacturers specifically state not to use reloads ever in their guns, just as Glock says not to use reloads or lead.

i tend to take manufacturer warnings as truth-they built it.

This statement would also mean that you would never shoot reloads in any gun whose manual tells you not to.

what do you think causes "glock kabooms"?

My 1911s don't have fully supported chambers either. There is little if any difference in resizing cases fired from my 1911s or G36. The 36 has eaten more of my loads than any of my steel .45s

SCBradley
February 2, 2010, 11:17 PM
if you want to press your luck

And all lead is not equal. I don't get any leading in a Glock.

ljnowell
February 2, 2010, 11:57 PM
Wow....where do ideas like this things get started?

-Sam

Because, in the case of Lonewolf Glock barrels its true. I have had to have it done to mine and almost every one I know that ordered one.

It was a waste of money anyway, my G21 is just as accurate with my lead reloads with the stock barrel. I have shot 2-300 rounds at a time, never a lead filled bore that would cause a dangerous condition. Thats because I know how to reload. I know how to tailor a load to a gun to prevent leading. Its not real hard, and its not risking anything, if you understand the principles behind it.

Sam1911
February 3, 2010, 12:39 AM
Because, in the case of Lonewolf Glock barrels its true. I have had to have it done to mine and almost every one I know that ordered one.So a company who's primary success is built on supplying cut-rifled barrels for Glocks -- so that folks can shoot lead bullets without quaking in fear of the Kaboom -- has to be told to make them with loose tolerances so you can shoot lead bullet through them?

When, with the possible exception of revolvers which occasionally need their chambers' throats opened up for best results, EVERY cut rifled barrel will shoot cast bullets -- often more accurately (depending on load, obviously)?

That doesn't seem to pass the sniff test. Can you explain exactly what you've had done to your Lone Wolf Glock barrels? Surely you didn't send them off to someone and just ask them to "loosen it up a bit?" What was the actual process you had done?

Lone Wolf doesn't seem to mention this on their site. And, I know a lot of competitors using LW barrels and I've never heard this mentioned before. Not that that is the final answer on anything. But, well, what are you saying, exactly?

-Sam

bds
February 3, 2010, 12:44 AM
Everyone let's take a time out = Deep Breath =

So a company who's primary success is built on supplying cut-rifled barrels for Glocks -- so that folks can shoot lead bullets without quaking in fear of the Kaboom -- has to be told to make them with loose tolerances so you can shoot lead bullet through them?

I found Lone Wolf barrels to be match grade and with the tightest chambers of all barrels I have measured (I practically use them as my case gauge as if loaded rounds chamber in a Lone Wolf barrel, they will chamber in any other factory barrel). They have been very good barrels for me right out of the box without any modifications.


Shooting lead bullets in Glock barrels raises several issues that can easily be "resolved":

1. Lead build up in barrel - I have shot both hard cast lead bullets with hardness of 18 and 24 and have not experienced lead build up (in any barrels, to include Glock). What I have found is that during seating of bullet, sometimes a sliver of lead is shaved by the case neck and is pushed around the bullet. As bullet is shot through the barrel, this sliver lines the barrel (usually in the grooves) as streaks.

I have found that if your flaring is sufficient and you are setting the base of the bullet flat and not tilted to the side, this slivering of lead is minimized. I do inspect and clean barrels I shoot lead out of more often and usually Hoppes #9 solvent with copper brush cleans out any lead lining/streaks. Be sure to clean the chamber and the transition area to leading to the rifling really well as this area collects much of fouling from powder burn/bullet lube.

I recommend using aftermarket barrels with conventional squared off land/groove rifling over the Glock's hexagonal rifling because the larger grooves between lands seem to allow more buildup and allow more excess pressure to escape.


2. If you are shooting Gen3 or Gen4 Glock barrels, chamber support is much better and the past concern over bulged Glocked cases is no longer applicable. If you are shooting older Glocks with less supported chambers and lead reloads, bulged case bottom may lead to failure if the fouling buildup around the chamber/rifling transition area is significant (usually, lead sliver streaking occurs at the chamber/rifling transition).

So can you safely shoot lead bullets in Glock barrels? I believe you can if you follow the following guidelines:

- Keep your Glock barrels clean and inspect/clean the barrels often for fouling/streaks.
- If you can, use Gen3/Gen4 barrels with better chamber support to minimize bulging of case bottoms that leads to case failure and the dreaded KaBoom
- Use caution when flaring and seating of the bullet to minimize slivering by case neck that leads to streaking of lead in barrels
- Use 18-24 hardness lead bullets from "reputable vendor" and DO NOT shoot softer lead bullets as softer lead bullets WILL lead more readily.
- Carry a mini cleaning kit to the range and frequently inspect barrels/chambers when shooting lead bullets.

I have tried shooting moly-coated bullets to reduce leading in barrels, but found good hard cast bullet properly seated in sufficiently flared cases do very well.

Use your own discretion regarding shooting lead bullets in Glock barrels. For me, I shoot jacketed and plated bullets in Glock barrels and lead bullets in aftermarket Lone Wolf barrels. Following quote is an excerpt from Wikipedia: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=6212826#post6212826

The manufacturer Glock advises against using lead bullets (meaning bullets not covered by a copper jacket) in their polygonally rifled barrels, which has led to a widespread belief that polygonal rifling is not compatible with lead bullets. Firearms expert and barrel maker, the late Gale McMillan, has also commented that lead bullets and polygonal rifling are not a good mix.

One suggestion of what the "additional factor involved in Glock's warning" might be is that Glock barrels have a fairly sharp transition between the chamber and the rifling, and this area is prone to lead buildup if lead bullets are used. This buildup may result in failures to fully return to battery, allowing the gun to fire with the case not fully supported by the chamber, leading to a potentially dangerous case failure. However, since this sharp transition is found on most autopistols this speculation is of limited value. The sharp transition or "lip" at the front of the chamber is required to "headspace" the cartridge in most autopistols.

Another possible explanation is that there are different "species" of polygonal rifle and perhaps Glock's peculiar style of polygonal rifling may be more prone to leading than the particular styles employed in the H&K and Kahr barrels.

Leading is the buildup of lead in the bore that happens in nearly all firearms firing high velocity lead bullets. This lead buildup must be cleaned out regularly, or the barrel will gradually become constricted resulting in higher than normal discharge pressures. In the extreme case, increased discharge pressures can result in a catastrophic incident.

bds
February 3, 2010, 01:00 AM
It was a waste of money anyway, my G21 is just as accurate with my lead reloads with the stock barrel. I have shot 2-300 rounds at a time, never a lead filled bore that would cause a dangerous condition. Thats because I know how to reload. I know how to tailor a load to a gun to prevent leading. Its not real hard, and its not risking anything, if you understand the principles behind it.

I think the "I know how to reload. I know how to tailor a load to a gun to prevent leading." is the key phrase here. Even if you have less supported chamber, if you keep your powder charge away from the max charges, your cases are less likely to bulge from chamber pressure.

Start with reduced loads and incrementally increase the charge and measure your case for expansion. If you begin to see significant case base expansion, back off the charge.

Safe practices such as this should be used regardless of what make/model barrel you shoot out of.

Full Metal Jacket
February 3, 2010, 01:06 AM
isn't it great how some people like to push the limits of safe firearms use?


:eek::eek:

REAPER4206969
February 3, 2010, 01:14 AM
It is extremely dangerous to dick around with lead bullets in a polygonal rifled barrel. Don't do it.

REAPER4206969
February 3, 2010, 01:16 AM
my G21
There is a much larger margin of error with the low pressure .45ACP than there is with the high pressure 9x19mmParabellum and .40 Smith & Wesson.

SCBradley
February 3, 2010, 01:40 AM
isn't it great how some people like to push the limits of safe firearms use?

It is extremely dangerous to dick around with lead bullets in a polygonal rifled barrel. Don't do it.

Thanks Mom.

Nobody is suggesting anybody "dick around" with anything.

As stated previously, if you know the hardness of the lead alloy is up to snuff, keep loads within safe pressures, and examine your bore for possible buildup regularly, there is no problem.

If you're shooting .40s&w lead gun show reloads, then yeah, you're asking for a bad day.

The differences are a mile wide.

Full Metal Jacket
February 3, 2010, 01:52 AM
^^^your sarcastic reply doesn't prove your point at all. just thought you should know.

bds
February 3, 2010, 01:52 AM
If you're shooting .40s&w lead gun show reloads, then yeah, you're asking for a bad day.

I wonder who loads gun show reloads? :rolleyes:

I wonder what specs they use (bullet, powder, charge, OAL, primer, etc.)? :scrutiny:

SCBradley
February 3, 2010, 01:58 AM
I wonder who loads gun show reloads?

I wonder what specs they use (bullet, powder, charge, OAL, primer, etc.)?

You don't know. That's the point.

Unless it says Black Hills on the box, "re manufactured" = trouble.

ljnowell
February 3, 2010, 02:04 AM
So a company who's primary success is built on supplying cut-rifled barrels for Glocks -- so that folks can shoot lead bullets without quaking in fear of the Kaboom -- has to be told to make them with loose tolerances so you can shoot lead bullet through them?

When, with the possible exception of revolvers which occasionally need their chambers' throats opened up for best results, EVERY cut rifled barrel will shoot cast bullets -- often more accurately (depending on load, obviously)?

That doesn't seem to pass the sniff test. Can you explain exactly what you've had done to your Lone Wolf Glock barrels? Surely you didn't send them off to someone and just ask them to "loosen it up a bit?" What was the actual process you had done?

Lone Wolf doesn't seem to mention this on their site. And, I know a lot of competitors using LW barrels and I've never heard this mentioned before. Not that that is the final answer on anything. But, well, what are you saying, exactly?


Lone wolf does this for free. They obviously know that they put out some tight barrels. If you hang out at glock specific forums you will find this is common knowledge there. In the case of the 45acp the Lonewolf barrel has a sharp start to the rifling and it is rather shallow in the chamber area. When using many commonly available bullets you will have to seat the bullet WAY to deep to not engage the rifling. They also have an extremely tight chamber. So tight that you can have problems with lead bullets due to the .001 difference. That tight. I have taken a case with a FMJ bullet in it, pulled it down and resized, flared, seated a .452 diameter lead bullet and crimped to the factory spec. The case will get scuffed at the back of the bullet and not go into battery. Many people experience the same issues and send them back to be machined. I am not knocking the product, its a quality barrel and has good accuracy. Its still a drop in barrel though, not a custom fitted match grade.

I think the "I know how to reload. I know how to tailor a load to a gun to prevent leading." is the key phrase here.
You are right, you should know exactly what you are doing. People who rush into reloading and dont know what they are doing blow up glocks. Also people buying cheap .40 and 9mm lead reloads at gun shows and shooting them.

isn't it great how some people like to push the limits of safe firearms use?


Pushing the limits? Ok. I have extensively tested to work up a round. I probably loaded and shot over 500 rounds before I settled on the right combo that gave me no leading. I bought 5K of those bullets and tested the load wth the new batch, to make sure the alloy was the same. No leading still. At the end of that 5K I bought 10K more. Same thing, tested them to make sure no leading issues with the load and off I go. I am ashamed to admit that I have not made it through all 10 of those yet. when I do though, it will be the same process. I also do the same thing for powder lots when I buy powder, just to make sure I am safe.

Your indictment on someones safety level because they choose to do something you are not capable of isnt right.

bds
February 3, 2010, 05:22 AM
ljnowell:
Lone wolf does this for free. They obviously know that they put out some tight barrels. If you hang out at glock specific forums you will find this is common knowledge there. In the case of the 45acp the Lonewolf barrel has a sharp start to the rifling and it is rather shallow in the chamber area. When using many commonly available bullets you will have to seat the bullet WAY to deep to not engage the rifling. They also have an extremely tight chamber. So tight that you can have problems with lead bullets due to the .001 difference. That tight. I have taken a case with a FMJ bullet in it, pulled it down and resized, flared, seated a .452 diameter lead bullet and crimped to the factory spec. The case will get scuffed at the back of the bullet and not go into battery. Many people experience the same issues and send them back to be machined. I am not knocking the product, its a quality barrel and has good accuracy. Its still a drop in barrel though, not a custom fitted match grade.

Good point. I have the 40S&W, 40-9 conversion and 9mm barrels and so far no feeding problems (40-9 conversion barrels require the use of 9mm magazines to feed properly).

As to tight fit, I full length size my cases on a single stage press using Lee carbide dies. I use just enough flare to seat the 125gr lead bullet and taper crimp them to 1.2"-1.25". The loaded rounds drop freely into the Lone Wolf barrel with a "clink" with no scuffing/rubbing.

Although it is a drop in, I have not needed to do any fitting and they have provided better than factory accuracy. If I get a 45 Lone Wolf barrel, I may use their service though. Thanks for the info.

Sam1911
February 3, 2010, 09:33 AM
Ok ljonwell,

I did not know this. None of the Glock shooters I see weekly or monthly have ever mentioned it, but it makes sense with that explanation.

I appreciate the info!

-Sam

easyg
February 3, 2010, 10:42 AM
Originally Posted by easyg View Post
No bare lead and no re-loads, and your Glock will serve you well.

Use re-loads and bare lead and you're just begging for fate to make an example of you.
So you are saying that reloading is dangerous? lol, ok.
I stated it about as clear as possible.

If you choose to shoot bare lead or RE-LOADS in your Glock, then yes, you are tempting fate.

Stick to factory loads and FMJ or FHP and you're Glock will serve you well....


Unless your karma is just so damn bad that fate wants you to fail. ;)

Sam1911
February 3, 2010, 10:57 AM
If you shoot ... RE-LOADS in your Glock, then yes, you are tempting fate.

Stick to factory loads and FMJ or FHP and you're Glock will serve you well....

Having seen a certain number of completely f(ouled) up factory loaded cartridges, as well as more than a few bad reloads, I'd say no blanket statement like this is valid in either direction.

The gun is a mechanical item -- a tool. It could fail unexpectedly for any number of reasons, but generally doesn't. We might be the cause of some of them, and many others are largely out of our control.

You have to balance the risks vs. the rewards of whatever action. If you never shoot your Glock (or any gun) it is HIGHLY unlikely to blow apart and hurt your hand. If you only shoot factory ammo, it is pretty unlikely to do so. But few of us could ever reach even reasonable proficiency if we can shoot only the factory ammo we can afford to purchase. If you are reasonably careful with your process controls, you can shoot reloads for a lifetime and never blow up a gun, and will be able to afford three or four times as much practice ammo -- allowing you to achieve a much higher level of proficiency with the sidearm.

In the end it (like much else in life) is a balance of risks. I'll risk shooting my reloads because I trust the ammo I make, and the care I give to maintenance and inspection of my firearms. I trust the ammo the factories turn out as well -- to about the same degree as I trust my own stuff -- but I can't afford to shoot enough factory ammo to reach an acceptable level of proficiency, so that becomes a moot point.

And I accept that every time I pull a trigger, there is some small -- I'd say infantesimal -- chance that the gun will fail catestrophically. I've seen the results. Usually a destroyed gun and a sore hand. (Not death, blindness, maiming, or otherwise unacceptable catastrophy.) I can accept those risks in order to persue the goals I've set for myself.

-Sam

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