[Digger Odell]

I took out of hibernation a shotgun that had been passed to me about 40 years ago by one of my great uncles. He had always taken a shine to my daughter so I thought I would pass it on to her, to her delight.
Upon looking at the lock I can just about make out the name of Manton, between the barrels there is something etched and then London. On the right side on the lock using rubbings on yellow paper I think the name Manton can be read. I can not find any barrel proof marks or any serial numbers any where. Does anyone have any ideas. I know some of the later Manton shotguns that came out of Belgium.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b99/Stickly/DadsMantonShotgun003.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b99/Stickly/DadsMantonShotgun005.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b99/Stickly/DadsMantonShotgun008.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b99/Stickly/DadsMantonShotgun009.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b99/Stickly/DadsMantonShotgun011.jpg



***Notice the engraving of hunter on trigger guard in the photo below***

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b99/Stickly/DadsMantonShotgun012.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b99/Stickly/DadsMantonShotgun014.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b99/Stickly/DadsMantonShotgun016.jpg

[Jim K]

Have you had the stock off? Proofs might be on the bottom of the barrel.

Manton was one of the top English makers; I am pretty sure he didn't put his name on Belgian guns.

Jim

[Digger Odell]

Have you had the stock off? Proofs might be on the bottom of the barrel.

Manton was one of the top English makers; I am pretty sure he didn't put his name on Belgian guns.

Jim
I have been very hesitant about disassembly & disturbing the screws, wedges, pins or any other attaching hardware. But it does give me something to ponder. Thank you. :)

[Jim K]

I said "Manton was one of the top English makers; I am pretty sure he didn't put his name on Belgian guns." I should have added that others did, so "Manton" on a gun does not mean Manton ever saw it.

Jiim

[Oyeboten]

The single Cross-Pin or Wedge or Slide, on the Forearm, is what allows removal of the Barrels.

This was typically done after any Shooting, for cleaning the Barrels in Hot Soapy Water of Powder residu...so, the design anticipated Barrel removal as an easy routine thing to do.


The small Forearm cross-wedge will only slide one way, probably to the left...and will be restrained from sliding all the way out by a small vertical Pin ( literally Pin).

[rrogers]

Thats a nice looking gun

[Digger Odell]

Oyeboton!!!
Thanks for the encouagement! I still have to build up a little more courage before I attempt to do the deed, but I more then likely will attempt this, this weekend. Stay tuned & I'll let you know if my daughter is still talking to me. :)

[Digger Odell]

rrogers! Thanks, I forgot it was in hibernation until my daughter asked me about it. So out it comes & we can enjoy it. Any information you might add is great. :)

[Oyeboten]

Hi Digger Odell,




You'd said -

Oyeboton!!!
Thanks for the encouagement! I still have to build up a little more courage before I attempt to do the deed, but I more then likely will attempt this, this weekend. Stay tuned & I'll let you know if my daughter is still talking to me.



You are very welcome!



Barrel dis-mount should be forthright and safe to do if careful with the little skiding 'Key' ( could not think what to call it yesterday...Lol..)

Take the Ramrod, and, sound the Depth it can go in the Barrels...re-create that depth on the outside, and, see if there is any
'room' suggested at the Breech, which may mean it is loaded.


If there is a meaningful discrepency suggesting anything is 'IN' the Breech, then consider to get back to us before proceding further.


P.S.


Those Nipples look quite recent and fresh, and may very well remove easily.

Once you are certain the Shotgun Barrels are not Loaded, then, if you have a suitable Tool to do so, consider to unscrew-remove the Nipples in order to both see into the Breech Better, and, to faciliate the up-coming Bath-Cleaning-Inspection process.


Always bear in mind, any Muzzle Loading Long Arm handed down, or come by however so c-o-u-l-d be Loaded..!!

[Digger Odell]

Oyeboton!!!
Thanks for being so patient with me & guideing me through the proper & safty steps. Like you the nipples do look fairly recent to me also.
I did tick off the ramrod for the depth in the barrels & I did find it even in both.
I have a couple of missions to tend to in the morning & then I will make the time to do what I've been putting off, & I will let you know how well I do & any new info. Thanks. Digger. ...:)

[Digger Odell]

To both Jim Keenan and Oyeboton THANK YOU!! :):):)

With your help, patience,& guidance, I did locate the proof marks under the barrels & maybe the inspectors initials?
I was successful in seperating the barrels from the stock without any problem, & the nipples were removed without diffulculty. I checked the barrels with a light & they showed no blockage.
The barrels look good but loaded with dust, but I still need to run a couple of patchs down them.
Thanks Digger.



http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b99/Stickly/MantonProofs002.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b99/Stickly/MantonProofs003.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b99/Stickly/MantonProofs004.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b99/Stickly/MantonProofs006.jpg

[Oyeboten]

Hi Digger Odell,


Good going!


I don't know anything about the various Country's old Proof Marks.


Lets hope someone who does will come along and explain them.


Indeed, that is a good looking old Shotgun!



I just recently put a Toe-in-the-Water with Muzzle Loading Shotguns, and, got an old Double Barrel 12 Gauge.


Your Barrels, you may as well clean them as one would if after shooting -

Barrels removed as you now have them...Tub of hot soapy Water, Nipples removed from the Breech, and, with a snug Swap on a long stick, Breech submerged of course, draw the hot Soapy Water in by suctin of pulling the Swab up through the Bore from the Breech to the Muzzle, then, expelling the Water out through the Nipple Port in pushnig the Swab down through, maybe alternate with a full Bore Brass Brush, and repeating.


Once satisfied, dry with a soft cloth and low heat, and, once definitely 'dry' through-out, lightly Oil inside the Bores with a fresh clean Swab or improvised Swab, and lightly Oil the outsides too of course.

[Digger Odell]

Thanks Oyeboton!!
Water is heating up as I type. "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead" ! I'm ready to do it.
Have fun & enjoy your 12 Ga. :)
Digger.

[chevyforlife21]

damascus

[Digger Odell]

Yes they are!

[bertus]

Dear Digger Odell,
according to a site I found your rifle was proofmarked in Birmingham between 1868-1925
the crown with scepters should have the following letters between them: B p c if interested i can send you the link.Your gun could very well be a Manton made shotgun.

regards,Oscar

[Digger Odell]

bertus /Oscar,
Thank you for taking the time. That would be great if you will pass along the link.
Again Thank You. ..... Digger.

[bertus]

Here you are Digger
https://bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/Firearm/Proofmarks.pdf
Maybye you can contact birmingham proofhouse
http://www.gunproof.com/
and can they tell you more
keep us posted,
regards, Oscar

[Digger Odell]

Hi bertus :)
Thankyou for passing on the links, I will make the best out of them & let you know how I make out with the information.
Digger.

[Digger Odell]

Hi bertus!! :)
Oscar, I'm pleased to say you were right on the money. Using you information about Birmingham Proofhouse I was able to trace this info to the book, Gunmarks by David Byron.On page 53 he gives a complete description of the proof mark with drawings, but he gives a date starting from 1813 forward to 1904.
Regarding the broard arrow stamping towards the rear it aludes to the hydraulic pressure test that Manton introduced but does not go into any further detail or dates. this is in Antique Firearms by Fredrick Wilkinson on page 256.
Oscar, your effort promted me to track this down. I will keep you abreast of any further information that I can gather. Thank You. :)
Digger.

[bertus]

Good morning Digger,I did google Manton and he was a gunmaker working in London,how come that his guns were proofmarked in Birmingham?My guess is that it is alas a belgian copy wich was sent over to Birmingham to get british proofed to fool buyers into thinking it was an original.
This gets curiouser and curiouser ,so let me know,

Regards,Oscar

[Jim K]

I am confused as to why you would think that. If the gun was made in Belgium, it would have been proved in Belgium, not in England.

Some of the confusion here is because there were two Mantons. The first was John Manton, who was the leading gun maker in England about 1810-1825; he died in 1834. Joseph Mantion (1766-1835), his (half?) brother, was also a gun maker and by 1825 was considered better than John, taking his place as the recognized foremost gun maker in England.

Joseph Manton apparently had no successors, but John had extablished a company, J. Manton & Son, which became J. Manton and Co. AFAIK, the company is still in business, making high quality shotguns.

I think that gun was made by Joseph Manton; John Manton's guns were marked "J. Manton."

The guns have Birmingham proof marks for a simple reason - they were made in Birmingham. Most English gun makers of the era had either head offices or sales rooms in London, the prestige city of the day, but Birmingham was the primary gun making area. (The same reason Sam Colt put "New York" on guns made in Hartford, CT. Who ever heard of Hartford?)

Jim

[bertus]

Jim according to the internet Belgian guns were sent to Birmingham to have them proofed to keep up the illusion that they were British made,I also came across guns who were manufactured under the name sam Holt hoping that the customers thought theybought a Colt,i hope that i am wrong the chance is that it is a Belgian copy

I found this on the firing line written by Jim Watson:

"The proofmarks look like Birmingham Eng., pre 1904.

Greener describes the practice of Belgian gunmakers sending guns to Birmingham to be prooved so as to avoid foreign markings. They would apply any brand name specified by the seller. The fine old Manton family was likely out of business by the time this gun was made.
"
Oscar

[Digger Odell]

Hi Jim!! :)
Thank you for the response.
Last weekend I spent time in that great place the "Library" great place. I found that the Manton gun makers had in deed moved to a couple of different places, one was due to a fire. Also the Purdy's of world renown served as an apprentice to Manton. I did'nt think to record all of this info but it is important to me.
David Byron in his book Gunmarks on page 53 state Manton used Birmingham from 1813 to 1904. Also with the broad arrow mark toward the rear of the barrels alude to Manton's introduction of the hydraulic pressure test he was working on would suggest to me this was not included on any piece that was made for the Belgian market. Perhaps the following weekend I can get to the library again for some more knowledge to share, as this weekend I have to travel.
Again Jim thanks for the interest & information.
Digger.

[Digger Odell]

Hi bertus/ Oscar!! :)
I belive this is a Manton shotgun & not a Belgian made item per the above reasons that I mentioned to Jim. The proof marks are from Biringham Proof House. I must travel this weekend but the following weekend I can get to the library to do more digging.
Thanks for the interest, I will keep you abreast of any further information I am able to gather.
The best to you.
Digger.

[bertus]

Thanks for the info I`m off for a short holliday as well ,till friday i`ll keep my fingers crossed and sincerely hope that I am wrong.

Regards,
Oscar
Btw bertus is my nickname,Oscar my christian name

[Digger Odell]

Hi bertus / Oscar & Jim K.

I was finally able to do a little more research, & this is what I have found.

From Gun Makers 1350-1850 By Howard L Blackmore, Manton supplement by Neal & Back 1849 volume. "Geo.Henry Manton favored quality shotguns, while Gildon Manton favored volume production, so was some of the internal affairs, which started the Indian Colonial market.

Guns by Frederick Wilkeinson pg 150.
In the eighteenth century Manton's & most of the British guns were produced in Birmingham and the parts sent to London for finishing and assembling. Clients prepared to pay the price could still have the entire gun made in the shop in London, by the London maker.

Antique Guns & the Collors Guide by John E. Traister, pg 174.
It was only after 1893 that H.D.Folsum, Bacon, & Cresent Firearms were now producing a vast number of firearms under a host of names of about a hundred such makers, which included Barker,CW Franklin, Manton, W.Richards & Wilkinson Arms Co.
Belgium made gun parts proofed in Birmingham were also marked with a Crown & F for foreigners.

In view of all of this I feel confident that this shotgun is a Manton & not a Belgium knockoff. The master himself may not have laid his hands on it but it is real & genuine, & I accept this.
My daughter is tickled pink to own it now.

Thanks to all, for your input while the research was on going. :):):)

Digger.

[Leatherneck 0311]

Digger,

What is the significance of the "FW" on your barrel ? I see some LC Smith shotguns are listed as FW LC Smith and the barrels are described as "Feather Weight" Is it the same here and what does that mean? Anyone?

Semper FI-

[Digger Odell]

Leatherneck o311

I believe the FW represents the inspectors initials.
The term Feather Weight is used with Franchi shotguns & Feather Light is used by Ithaca.
Can anyone shed some insight into this?

Thanks, Digger.

[Hawaiian Boar Hunter]

Does anyone out there know the value of a J. Manton & Company 20 Gauge Double Barrel Side by Side, 27 Inch Damascus Barrel Shotgun with the marking "London Fine Twist" Serial Number 8377? I'd appreciate any info. Thanks!

[Jim K]

"Antique Guns & the Collors Guide by John E. Traister, pg 174.
It was only after 1893 that H.D.Folsum, Bacon, & Cresent Firearms were now producing a vast number of firearms under a host of names of about a hundred such makers, which included Barker,CW Franklin, Manton, W.Richards & Wilkinson Arms Co."

I hope that is not being misinterpreted. Those guns were not being made FOR the legitimate makers, they were counterfeits made with approximations of the names of high quality makers and with deliberate intent to deceive the buyer. Westley Richards, for example, always marked his guns exactly that way; a gun marked "W. Richards" is a fake, no matter who made it.

Jim