[twoblink]

Which do you think is a better CQB gun? AR15 or M1Carbine?

[Dr.Rob]

The secret is the shooter not the tool.

I don't plan on doing any CQB anytime soon, outside of an IDPA match.

The carbine has the advantage of lighter weight, sights closer in line with the bore and it handles fast.

The AR has a better selection of ammo... you can hang all sorts of doo-dads off of it.

Both will kill at close range.

I'd pick the carbine. No good reason.

[DeputyVaughn]

The Carbine stock would have a better chance of surviving being used as a club. In close quarters a buttstroke may be required when a shot can't be exicuted.

Scott

[Master Blaster]

IMHO

.308 Saiga with a 16" barrel

Would be better for CQB then either of the two other choices.

[Redlg155]

I'd have to choose the AR15.

Stick on a pencil (ultra light) barrel and skip all the other stuff and you have a great lightweight carbine. The safety is a bit more natural to disengage. The pistol grip also makes the rifle a bit easier to hang onto one handed in case you need to open a door or move an object. It can also be fired one handed if need be.

I'd also be a bit more confident on the 5.56 penetrating heavy layered clothing or body armor than I would a .30 carbine.

Good Shooting
Red

[TODD3465]

Yep, what Red said.

[Smoke]

Remington 870


(well....somebody had to do it)



Smoke

[Skunkabilly]

Get a Glock :neener:

Blink, Is this for you or Janie? If it's for her, why not let her decide?

[4v50 Gary]

Rule 2 of gunfighting: Bring a bigger gun.

So, applying Rule #2, go w/the AR, unless the carbine is a 22 Johnson Spitfire.

[Jack19]

AR15.

[444]

Is this a trick question ?

[cordex]

AR for me.

If you don't like the caliber, you can take your pick of most automatic pistol cartridges and a good number of smallish rifle calibers and get a new upper. If you don't like the length, you can buy an upper in a different length (and even go the SBR route if you're so inclined). If you don't like the LOP, you can get a different sized stock. If you don't like the trigger pull, there are plenty of aftermarket options. If you don't like the sights, you can switch to flat-top and take your pick.

All the typical reasons given for why the AR is such an awful weapon do not apply in a home defense scenario. (If you crud your gun up so much in your bedroom that it can't fire, you need to do some serious housecleaning.)

Granted, a .30 carbine makes a more durable beatin' stick than the AR, but if it comes to the point that I'm whackin' instead of shootin', I'm not really concerned about whether the gun survives the fight, and worst case scenario I'll still have a 16" chunk of steel to beat heads in - even if everything else breaks off (which I highly doubt).

[Black Snowman]

I'd prefer a .223 but wouldn't nessisarily limit it to the AR15. In it's normal legal form the OAL is more than I'd prefer. I have a Bushmaster M17S I'm using for my home defense gun but I realise I'm sacrificing a little reliability to get that shorter OAL.

[OEF_VET]

Personally, I'd go with the AR.

[Jeff White]

The AR. Much more ergonomic then the M1 carbine and you may as well be carrying a pistol when you compare .30 carbine to 5.56x45 for terminal effectiveness, especially at CQB ranges.

Jeff

[Bartholomew Roberts]

In close quarters a buttstroke may be required when a shot can't be exicuted.

If you are in close quarters, I have to question the wisdom of reversing the muzzle of the rifle towards you and attempting to hit them with the buttstock. It seems to me like putting the rifle muzzle half way in the direction they would like to see it pointing when they are already in contact distance is asking for trouble. If your buttstroke isn't effective you are going to be in a biomechanically inferior position and fighting for your gun or have your muzzle pointed off into the great beyond while the threat has his pointed at you.

I think a muzzle strike is a much better option if you opt for something less than lethal force. It keeps the muzzle pointed towards the target and ready for use and it can be quite effective since the force is concentrated in a relatively small area. I'd also add that the vertical grips available for the AR facilitate such a technique quie nicely.

[RustyHammer]

Have more than one of each ... and, while I love the M1 Carbine and would trust it in that situation, I'd have to go with the AR-15.

The AR-15 is a better platform for optics and accessories (such as lights). Can be customized for various tasks rather quickly. (bipods, lights, optics, etc.) The M1 Carbine is limited in that role ... while, as pointed out above, would edge out the AR in the "club" catagory. (It's also a bit more compact, if that counts for anything.)

It's a close call, either way, by me.

/Rusty

An AR-10 would be even better choice ... (mostly because I don't have one and I'm trying to talk myself into buying one!)

[twoblink]

444,

Why would this be a trick question??

Skunky, this is for me, not the Mrs..

The way I see it, a flashlight on an AR might be a great choice, but the M1C seems to be a much better pointer. As for .223 round vs. .30Carbine, it makes no difference to me.

.308??? You're joking right? The noise would cause both the shooter and shootee to just about swoon.. assuming you have ear drums left :what:

I like the M1Carbine, but the AR seemed to have a few advantages.. But that was yesterday. :evil: Today, I'm not so sure..

[clint1911a1]

16" bbl AR-15

[Skunkabilly]

Blink, you seem to like the M1-type of designs better and if it points more naturally for you, is more fun and ergonomic, why not the M1 Carbine?

Sure I'm an AR-15 guy but if you enjoy the M1 better and will give it more trigger time, why not?

[FireInTheHole]

Why not just buy an SKS with a bayonet? :D When you run outta ammo you can poke 'em to death!

[Lochaber]

308??? You're joking right? The noise would cause both the shooter and shootee to just about swoon.. assuming you have ear drums left

I have some bad news for you. They are all going to hurt. If you want to hear a real nasty boom, load your favorite 16" AR with Federal XM193 ammo (full power military ammo) and hear and feel the blast. The truth is even a .22 hurts your years in a small place. At least you know is comming and your adversary doesnt.

Personally I would say one of the new Saiga 12 shotguns. Quick to fire and reload, plus the shotgun boom doesnt hurt as much. And if you cant solve the problem with 5 quick rounds of buckshot, fired as fast as you can pull the trigger ... well lets just say it is not a problem you can solve.

Loch

[carpettbaggerr]

Yeah, there have been cops who ruptured their eardrums firing a 9mm in a car. The .223 is very loud even outside -- you can feel the concussion from 10 feet away, I wouldn't want to fire it inside without serious ear protection. If you like the M1 carbine it would be fine for home defense.

[13.45]

how about the ruger mini-14?

[Sunray]

"....308 Saiga with a 16" barrel..." Useless waste of steel putting an excessively short barrel on a 1,000 yard cartridge rifle. Although with the muzzle flash I suppose you can roast the bad guy.
Tanks don't get into CQB. Unless you think 1,000 yards is close. That's PBR for a tank gun. No rifle is any good for it either. Use an SMG like civilised folks.

[Andrew Wyatt]

eeh, the mini-14 is a better gun than the m-1 carbine. it's light and handy, and it's a garand type action.

[Skunkabilly]

When you run outta ammo you can poke 'em to death!

Those :cuss: JBTs aren't makin' no canoe out of me!!! :cuss:

:D

As for the noise of the AR-15, the SPPPROOINNNNGGGG is deafening :D

[Master Blaster]

So the .308 in a 16" barrell is much less effective than a .223 in a 16" barrell??????????


:rolleyes:

[lmccrock]

You can always turn it around the caliber and platform....

Mini-14 gives you .223 club, if necessary. And Olympic Arms is advertising a 30 Carbine upper for the AR, although I have never seen one. ;)

Lee

[JShirley]

Use what works for you.

I've had both. Lost faith in the AR15/M16 platform after seeing what happens when you crawl and fire in sand with one. It doesn't matter how accurate and ergonomic it is, if it won't fire!

You probably aren't planning on really hard use for your AR, so if you like it better, go for it. I prefer the carbine...one can always mount a bayonet on it, as well. :p

[444]

I finally got SIRUS satilite radio in my car the other day. Yesterday I was driving around listening to a program on A&E about elite units of the German Army during WWII. They were interviewing a vertern of the Afrika Corp and the first comment he made was something to the effect "We had to clean our weapons several times a day because of the blowing sand and dust".

Really ? There really isn't anything new under the sun. Sixty years ago, troops armed with various weapons including bolt action rifles found that sand causes weapons to malfunction and they have to maintain them. Who was that, that said; those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it ? I would be willing to bet that every country who has fought in the desert since firearms were developed discovered the CRISIS that their weapons didnt' work reliabably in sand and it was the fault of the weapon design. The weapons are junk I tell you.


By the way, how did the M1 Carbine hold up when you were crawling and firing in sand ?

[Swamprabbit]

I really think that the weather and/or environmental related reliability debates don't really apply to what the thread writer is asking. Reliability for home use should be measured by how the rifle holds up to normal firing. Can your carbine or AR go through 20-30 rds, anytime, without a hickup? I had a carbine once that wouldn't due to having some worn out parts on it so it obviously wasn't a "weapon" to depend on due to that. If you have a good quality carbine that shoots when you pull the trigger then I wouldn't have any reservations at all in using it. I also own ARs but it is hard to argue with the handiness of a carbine with a 15rd mag. I understand that the Israeli police forces did, at least until recently, use the M1 carbines loaded with 110g hollow points and you know what kind of conditions they work in.

I have stated several times that I have had far more problems with S&W revolvers jamming up, with unburned powder getting below the extractor, than any other firearm I have ever owned but I don't see threads full of debates on how reliable, or nor, they are. How many use these for home defense?

[JShirley]

444,
I have not yet had a chance to do any combat-style field training with the M1 carbine.

I have, however, had several ComBlock rifles that were exposed to very sandy environments. They continued working flawlessly. I have had Glocks exposed to sandy environments. They worked. (Until enough sand worked down into the trigger mechanism to jam it; flushing with soapy water removed the problem. The sand working into the mechanism enough to disrupt it took several weeks. A thorough enough cleaning would have prevented the weapon from EVER malf'ing.) Each of these weapons was exposed to several times the sand the M16 had "introduced" to it. And they continued working.

Now, I plainly said, use what works for you. I then stated my own, personal reasons why I do not trust the system. I beg your leave to have my own damn opinions.

John

[444]

Oh, and now you want to have your own opinion :what:

[twoblink]

I had an SKS. sold it.. It was reliable, but not accurate. It was light with the fiberglass body, but it kicked a bit hard, and things rattled..

I do like the M1 style platform better, but maybe something like a flashlight is critical as an attachment. (Ducktape use excluded). I find rifles point easier in the dark than pistols, otherwise, Jeff's assessment of .30Carbine probably being the same ballistically as a .357Mag out of a 4" barrel is probably true.

I think CQB is pointability and reliability. Sand? In my bedroom gun?? Probably not...

[TechBrute]

Oh, and now you want to have your own opinion

Heheheheheheeee.... Bwahahahahahahaha...

No kidding... someone else who brings up the whole sand thing every time an AR is mentioned... shocker. I distinctly remember someone bitching about their garand malfing due to sand on the history channel. There just aren't that many people who actually carried one around left to bitch about it. In another 60 years, you'll be watching the 80 year olds that served in ODS or OEF complaining about their M16, but people will be clamoring to buy them from the CMP (assuming that there's still a second amendment), and someone will be bitching about the way that their plasma rifle, 40 watt range, overheats constantly.

[cordex]

TechBrute,
More likely, everyone will be blithering on and on about the fact that the 2mm caseless flechette rifles have no "stopping power" - 6,500 fps or not, they never work when you pour sand into the action, and since they're 75% plastic, they break too easy and the ammo is too sensitive, and they jam every ten round burst.
Why, if they'd just issue a real man's rifle in a real man's caliber ... like the ol' M-16 in 5,56mm ... they wouldn't have problems. The baddies wouldn't take six shots to stop because one clean hit with the 5,56 will drop him right off.